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View Full Version : UK Politics Hamsterwheel MkII


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Harley Quinn
30th Oct 2018, 10:21
I've given up trying with the original thread.

For those who can't help themselves there are the Hamster Wheel threads. If you absolutely need to talk politics, do it there. Do not start new political threads, they will be closed or merged. If you choose to participate in a Hamster Wheel or a religious thread, show some restraint and a goodly dose of maturity.

Gertrude the Wombat
30th Oct 2018, 19:26
Never had any problem with that thread here (apart from the several bugs that plague the whole site).

SO, you could try using Internet Explorer.

flash8
30th Oct 2018, 19:39
The "new" interface sucks.

Maxbert
30th Oct 2018, 20:25
Evenin' all! Haven't been back here in yonks, let alone posted, but was there not a Brexit hamsterwheel or somesuch, once upon a time? Maybe the subject is off-limits here now...?

Cheers,

Maxbert

ORAC
31st Oct 2018, 06:43
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britain-cant-copy-our-deal-declares-norway-v5jwg292j

Britain can’t copy our deal, declares Norway

A “Norway for now” plan favoured by some Conservative MPs to prevent a no-deal Brexit (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/what-s-the-deal-with-a-no-deal-brexit-v3sc9m59n)was yesterday rejected by Norway itself.

In recent weeks senior Tories, including Brexiteers and Remainers, have signalled their support for the “Norway option” as an alternative to the Chequers plan (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-whats-in-the-chequers-white-paper-8cszm08r9) favoured by Theresa May, who yesterday delivered the first address by a British prime minister to the Nordic Council in Oslo.........

Norway’s prime minister rejected the idea for Britain to join. Erna Solberg suggested that her country was not pleased with the idea of Britain temporarily piggybacking on their relationship with the EU as a convenient way out of the present impasse. “I don’t think it’s easy to think that you can enter into an organisation you are preparing to leave at the same time,” she said. “It is a little bit difficult for the rest of us.”........

Jean-Claude Piris, a former head of the EU’s legal service, said on Monday that the Efta treaty was not intended to be a temporary arrangement.........

“At the moment the European Economic Area is the Norway model. If Britain, a massive economy, joins then that changes it. It will be over,” a European diplomat said........

Krystal n chips
31st Oct 2018, 06:45
Aha ! the embryonic alternative politics for the chums only has emerged it seems.

So let's think .....

You MUST be a committed Mail or Telegraph reader and staunchly right wing, this thread is for consensus political views only. Express readers will be considered once evidence of their wish to progress can be demonstrated.
You MUST be in the 40% or above tax bracket, have held a commission or be of similar inconsequential standing in the civilian world.
You MUST have to ability to be excessively and continuously self-aggrandizing
You MUST take expensive holidays, reside in an elite post code area and drive at least one, preferably two, top of the range marques of vehicles.
You MUST NOT have any form of social conscience or understanding of the broader spectrum of society that exists outside your own incestuous little cabals.
You MUST detest the BBC, and the public sector, and swear an oath of allegiance to the Holy Grail of Privatisation
You MUST NOT be a socialist, liberal minded, left wing, have the ability to think independently, question the veracity of other posters extensive claims or be a Guardian reader. A legal clause for the inclusion of these criteria is currently being drafted for inclusion in the Statute Book
You MUST NOT have any sense of humour other than when denigrating people in the lower income brackets, people on benefits and women.

ORAC
31st Oct 2018, 07:52
??????? :rolleyes:

Pontius Navigator
31st Oct 2018, 08:12
GTW, alas there is a world out here not dependent on Microsoft using machines and browsers of many flavours other than Internet Explorer. Indeed even Microsoft has gone beyond IE. I use Silk.

Grayfly
31st Oct 2018, 08:43
This is confusing, should I be in MkI or MkII?

VP959
31st Oct 2018, 09:19
This is confusing, should I be in MkI or MkII?

Judging by the fact that some are still able to access and post in the original thread, yet some cannot, for reasons unknown, I don't think there's an answer to that question.

The error message that some are getting when trying to access the original thread seems related to something that's taking too long to redirect, and for some here there doesn't seem to be an easy solution. There must be a record kept of every thread/post that's been viewed by any member, as it doesn't matter what machine you use to access the forum, it remembers which threads/posts you've have already seen, and marks them by changing the font from bold to normal on read threads. Perhaps something has gone awry with the way that works for some of us, leading to the reported access problem. I've no idea why it only affects some, and not others, perhaps one of our IT literate members might be able to hazard a guess.

jez d
31st Oct 2018, 10:03
Aha ! the embryonic alternative politics for the chums only has emerged it seems.

So let's think .....

You MUST be a committed Mail or Telegraph reader and staunchly right wing, this thread is for consensus political views only. Express readers will be considered once evidence of their wish to progress can be demonstrated.
You MUST be in the 40% or above tax bracket, have held a commission or be of similar inconsequential standing in the civilian world.
You MUST have to ability to be excessively and continuously self-aggrandizing
You MUST take expensive holidays, reside in an elite post code area and drive at least one, preferably two, top of the range marques of vehicles.
You MUST NOT have any form of social conscience or understanding of the broader spectrum of society that exists outside your own incestuous little cabals.
You MUST detest the BBC, and the public sector, and swear an oath of allegiance to the Holy Grail of Privatisation
You MUST NOT be a socialist, liberal minded, left wing, have the ability to think independently, question the veracity of other posters extensive claims or be a Guardian reader. A legal clause for the inclusion of these criteria is currently being drafted for inclusion in the Statute Book
You MUST NOT have any sense of humour other than when denigrating people in the lower income brackets, people on benefits and women.



Excellent, that's me approved then :ok:

Hussar 54
31st Oct 2018, 11:08
Aha ! the embryonic alternative politics for the chums only has emerged it seems.

So let's think .....

You MUST be a committed Mail or Telegraph reader and staunchly right wing, this thread is for consensus political views only. Express readers will be considered once evidence of their wish to progress can be demonstrated.
You MUST be in the 40% or above tax bracket, have held a commission or be of similar inconsequential standing in the civilian world.
You MUST have to ability to be excessively and continuously self-aggrandizing
You MUST take expensive holidays, reside in an elite post code area and drive at least one, preferably two, top of the range marques of vehicles.
You MUST NOT have any form of social conscience or understanding of the broader spectrum of society that exists outside your own incestuous little cabals.
You MUST detest the BBC, and the public sector, and swear an oath of allegiance to the Holy Grail of Privatisation
You MUST NOT be a socialist, liberal minded, left wing, have the ability to think independently, question the veracity of other posters extensive claims or be a Guardian reader. A legal clause for the inclusion of these criteria is currently being drafted for inclusion in the Statute Book
You MUST NOT have any sense of humour other than when denigrating people in the lower income brackets, people on benefits and women.




You're excluding yourself and we actually need and look forward to your humour, so maybe a few alternative rules for membership....

Andy_S
31st Oct 2018, 12:54
Aha ! the embryonic alternative politics for the chums only has emerged it seems.

So let's think .....

You MUST have to ability to be excessively and continuously self-aggrandizing



Well you're OK then!

treadigraph
31st Oct 2018, 12:59
This is confusing, should I be in MkI or MkII?

Use this one - MkI seems to be causing too many problems now - time it was retired!

Incidentally, enthusiastic hamster wheeler Racedo seems to have got himself banned...

Pontius Navigator
31st Oct 2018, 14:26
VP, I think you are only partly correct. AFAIK the top many redirects and continual failure only affects that one thread.

VP959
31st Oct 2018, 14:41
VP, I think you are only partly correct. AFAIK the top many redirects and continual failure only affects that one thread.

You are right, it's only the UK politics thread that seems to have the problem. We have a few IT gurus around, it would be interesting to get their take on why that thread is causing problems for some of us (from what I can gather everyone with a problem accessing that thread are seeing the same problem, with the long delay and try again message).

PPRuNe Towers
31st Oct 2018, 14:51
For some people the Formula One thread also suffers the same effect with iPhone and iPads.

Rob

G-CPTN
31st Oct 2018, 16:14
Is, perhaps, the problem with the MkI thread that there are too many unassigned pages - where the content has disappeared (presumably by deletion by Mods) but the page numbers remain?
There are threads (such as TTRAB) with far more pages but that don't have the 'spare' pages.

I can access the MkI by clicking on the title and then selecting 501/601/701/801/811.

HTH

pax britanica
31st Oct 2018, 18:25
I think the thread just got too big and unwieldy.

I had to laugh at the 'qualifications' page.

I see our Foreign Sec is today making another 'management consulting foray' into government organsiations not having learned anything from the NHS, even funnier are the papers examples of 'leading business men' I thought all our leading companies were actually run by non brits these days.
You can just see Branson at the US State department and Alan Sugar at the Elysee palace. No disrespect though to the two concerned-both have aviation connections fo course.

It seems that from *unts remarks Britain is to secretly and discretely hold the free world together after Brexit through its diplomatic service. Should work well when 80% of the world thinks we are complete idiots

vctenderness
31st Oct 2018, 18:27
Just to say I have had problems with the thread for some time I used to be able to redirect and get on but then that didn’t work.

just for info I use an iPad

ORAC
1st Nov 2018, 07:30
https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/politico-london-playbook-presented-by-school-cuts-nokes-jokes-brexit-waiting-game-crimewatch/

POLITICO:

”......The Home Office last night issued a “clarification” following Immigration Minister Caroline Nokes’ face palm appearance at the Commons home affairs committee on Tuesday. To the surprise of absolutely no one, it now looks like Nokes was completely wrong when she announced U.K. employers would somehow be expected to immediately distinguish between EU workers who had been living here before Brexit day, and EU workers who had arrived after, if Britain leaves Europe without a deal.

In a clarification issued last night to citizens’ pressure group The3Million. the Home Office said: “EU citizens will continue to be able to evidence their right to work by showing a passport or national identity card. Employers will not be expected to differentiate between resident EU citizens and those arriving after exit.”

Oops: This, of course, is precisely the opposite of what Nokes told committee Chairwoman Yvette Cooper on Tuesday. “If somebody hasn’t been here prior to the end of March next year, employers will have to make sure they go through adequately rigorous checks to evidence somebody’s right to work,” Nokes said confidently. However, when pressed on exactly how employers could be expected to make such checks, Nokes just waffled — and then said it “might be something I have to write to the committee about.” Which is ministerial code for “I have absolutely no idea.”

Reminder: Nokes is literally the minister in charge of immigration.

Also reminder: The last time a senior minister got it so hopelessly wrong before the home affairs committee, she had to resign. Perhaps Nokes should have asked Amber Rudd for a few tips before turning up........

And there’s more: At almost exactly the same time as the Home Office issued its statement last night, Home Secretary Sajid Javid was telling ITV’s Peston show that the problem will be solved via a “sensible transition period” for EU citizens in a no-deal scenario. “We’ve just got to be practical,” Javid said. “If there was a no-deal, we won’t be able to immediately distinguish between those Europeans that were already here before March 29, and those who came after — and therefore as a result I wouldn’t expect employers to do anything different than they do today … There will need to be some kind of sensible transition period. I mean, these are the kinds of things I’ve been working on for months and months.”

Oops: This, of course, is precisely the opposite of what the Home Office’s second permanent secretary, Shona Dunn, told committee Chairwoman Yvette Cooper on Tuesday. “If [no-deal] were the case, the prime minister has been very clear that she would want free movement turned off at that point in time,” Dunn said confidently. “So it would be our intention to have it done at that point in time. There will be a number of bits of secondary legislation, I would imagine.”

Reminder: Dunn is literally the civil servant in charge of immigration.

Also reminder: Britain is leaving the EU in less than five months. It would be great if these people had something approaching a coherent plan.

Pontius Navigator
1st Nov 2018, 08:08
Now now ORAC, picky picky, these are just trifling details.

😂

ORAC
1st Nov 2018, 08:42
PN,

If you follow the POLITICO link and read furyervdown concerning the EU Brexit negotiations it contains some interesting dichotomies. The UK press is full of the deal nearly bein* done on the financial sector etc etc. But the sticking point remains the “backstop to the backstop” overbthe airish border.

I suspect nothing has changed since POLITICO reported about 2 months ago that a behind the scene agreements had been made to help TM get a deal through parliament. The deal being that there would lots of apparent arguments by the EU before they appear to cave in and give the UK all these types of concessions - as long as the UK accepts the “never to be used” backstop to the backstop, However, the backstop will be in the legally binding withdrawal agreement - and everything else will be in the non-binding political agreement, subject to negotiation and withdrawal in later talks on the future relationship.

That might have worked were it not for Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General, who last month explained the exact legal position to the Cabinet, as a result if which the majority insisted on a an equally detailed legal explanation of the finally agreed deal.

Frankly, the6 can get 99.99% agreed, but TM is now in the political position that no future EU promises will get a legally binding backstop, or backstop to the backstop, through either Cabinet or a vote in the HoC.

VP959
1st Nov 2018, 12:11
Just as an aside, I managed to access the original thread and have just posted this suggestion there, which refers to the current "last page" of the original thread, which isn't where the "last page" link directs to:

"The problem may be associated with the "last page" not actually pointing to the proper last page, together with what looks to be loads of empty page references extending way beyond the real last page. I played around manually editing the URL for this thread many times, and eventually landed on this page using this edited URL: UK politics - Hamsterwheel (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411282-uk-politics-hamsterwheel-542.html) (which points to page number 542).

The "last page" URL seems to be: UK politics - Hamsterwheel (https://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411282-uk-politics-hamsterwheel-560.html) which points to a page (number 560) which doesn't exist, and presumably something then picks up this incorrect page address and tried to redirect it to the true one, with that process falling over for quite a lot of users for some unknown reason.

I would support the view that if this thread can't be fixed so that it works for everyone, the simplest solution would seem to be to lock it and let the Mk2 thread take over, as at least that does seem to work reliably. "

pax britanica
1st Nov 2018, 12:21
With five months to go and not a single trade deal struck-no surprise there with Liam Fox in charge- we now have the special relationship kicking in, firstly on trashing our food standards so we can buy adulterated GM modified poisonous US food , and today threats over our potential tax regime (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46050724). this of course is the reality of taking back control. it isnt Brussels where we are strong and represented who will impact our country but the Great Satan itself (funny I used to laugh at the Iranians over that but not any more) who will literately just tell us what to do. we will be lucky to be the USA's And of course we want Apple to do a software mod so we can launch a sensible immigration App and they just stick two fingers up at out Government hamster let alone its poodle the way Trump sees the world.

Andy_S
1st Nov 2018, 12:59
With five months to go and not a single trade deal struck-no surprise there with Liam Fox in charge....

Or perhaps more to the point, not surprising when EU membership means we're not allowed to do so......

Parapunter
1st Nov 2018, 13:15
With five months to go and not a single trade deal struck-no surprise there with Liam Fox in charge- we now have the special relationship kicking in, firstly on trashing our food standards so we can buy adulterated GM modified poisonous US food , and today threats over our potential tax regime (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46050724). this of course is the reality of taking back control. it isnt Brussels where we are strong and represented who will impact our country but the Great Satan itself (funny I used to laugh at the Iranians over that but not any more) who will literately just tell us what to do. we will be lucky to be the USA's And of course we want Apple to do a software mod so we can launch a sensible immigration App and they just stick two fingers up at out Government hamster let alone its poodle the way Trump sees the world.

You are absolutely correct and wholly wasting your time. This catastroshambles has become a Jim Jones cult for it's adherents. No amount of logic, reasoning or facts can stand in the way of what is now a wholly transactional arrangement.

It's all about getting the thing over the line now, which they will do, I have no doubt & so it will be that those who were always likely to be least affected & most protected from this & by that I mean those baby boomers who benefited from decades of house price growth, increasing employment rights & protections, huge strides in social mobility & final salary pensions whom are now for the most part retired & living in comparative comfort will be judged as the generation who ate their children. Who presided over the worst diminution of rights since the war, who tipped their children's futures into the ditch because they fell for a pack of Chimeric nonsense put about by a bunch of public school educated careerists & disaster capitalists preying on genuine fears & concerns with simplistic answers. Can't get a GP appointment? It's your Romanians did that, Sir, best rise up against the elites...

And how they lapped it up for decades down at the Red Lion in Dunny on the Wold, population two hundred, surnames: four.


But to business, if anyone here thinks the UK can untangle forty years of aquis & interwoven legislation AND improve more than 750 agreements covering everything from trade to isotopes to customs checks AND ratify them in the next five months, then I have a bridge you may be interested in buying. But on the bright side, there's all that control & sovereignty that has so impinged on your daily lives you get back. Not to mention blue passports (Made in France) and a 50p coin & the likes of Andrew Bridgen with his detailed knowledge of how easy it is for all English people to obtain an Irish passport.

Or perhaps more to the point, not surprising when EU membership means we're not allowed to do so...... *Puts reading glasses on, shakes head after recalling Davis' & Fox's pronouncements in 2016. German cars, easiest deals in history etc. etc.*

You've been led down the garden path by people about whom one should think twice about buying a second hand car from, three of whom have just been referred to the NCA because in all likelihood, their Brexit campaign was financed by Russia & I don't see one single Quitler ever wondering about the motivations behind that & for shame.

Sallyann1234
1st Nov 2018, 14:04
Of course it's all the EU's fault.
They wanted us to leave, didn't they. :ugh:

ATNotts
1st Nov 2018, 16:29
You've been led down the garden path by people about whom one should think twice about buying a second hand car from, three of whom have just been referred to the NCA because in all likelihood, their Brexit campaign was financed by Russia & I don't see one single Quitler ever wondering about the motivations behind that & for shame.

Aaron Banks and his sidekick are of course innocent until proven guilty. However if either or both of them are charged and convicted where would that leave the referendum of 2016? It would leave it totally discredited; however since by the time we get that far the UK will have left, or at least by on the transition exit road, it's hard to see what anyone could do about it then.

Pontius Navigator
1st Nov 2018, 16:33
ORAC, I was laughing at 'what the major really meant' toing and frowing.

Grayfly
1st Nov 2018, 16:47
[QUOTE=I mean those baby boomers who benefited from decades of house price growth, increasing employment rights & protections, huge strides in social mobility & final salary pensions whom are now for the most part retired & living in comparative comfort will be judged as the generation who ate their children.[/QUOTE]

I hate to spoil a good rant about us baby boomers, however, just for balance, I am one, without a final salary pension and voted to remain. My children for some reason which baffles me completely, voted to leave.

I feel I am not represented by any particular lobby group.

I think we can all agree that those in charge of Brexit have been taking lessons from the Carillion school of leadership and management.

Fareastdriver
1st Nov 2018, 17:21
The problem is that for the Brexit negotiations the top noddy is a Remainer.

sitigeltfel
1st Nov 2018, 17:35
I doubt Banks, and any money he used, made the slightest difference to the vote.
The people who had the greatest influence in steering voters towards Brexit were, Blair, Madelson, Geldof etc.

Parapunter
1st Nov 2018, 17:44
I doubt Banks, and any money he used, made the slightest difference to the vote.
The people who had the greatest influence in steering voters towards Brexit were, Blair, Madelson, Geldof etc.

Of course you do. And thanks for the vindication.

Krystal n chips
1st Nov 2018, 17:57
I doubt Banks, and any money he used, made the slightest difference to the vote.
The people who had the greatest influence in steering voters towards Brexit were, Blair, Madelson, Geldof etc.

Siti old boy !

Less you may feel one is being churlish here, alas, twas probably best thou didst not embark on a career as, erm, a political analyst ....given thine less than perceptive observations above which, strangely, seem to have omitted one N.Farage ...........unless, that is, you feel he was nothing more than the voice of popular opinion and entirely blameless in his concentrated efforts to promote the decision subsequently voted for.

And an honourable mention also for the unwavering support over 20+ years of fallacies, histrionics, jingoism and associated bolleaux all brought to the publics attention thanks to the Mail / Excess/ Torygraph and Sun whose editorial standards make a piece of used Andrex look like it's just come from a hermitically sealed laboratory with particles filtered to 0.0001microns .......not that any of the rags could remotely have influenced public opinion of course.

Harley Quinn
1st Nov 2018, 19:35
Siti old boy !

Less you may feel one is being churlish here, alas, twas probably best thou didst not embark on a career as, erm, a political analyst ....given thine less than perceptive observations above which, strangely, seem to have omitted one N.Farage ...........unless, that is, you feel he was nothing more than the voice of popular opinion and entirely blameless in his concentrated efforts to promote the decision subsequently voted for.


I have to ask KnC, because you claim to live in the real world, yet you insist on writing in such an arcane manner to siti. Maybe you think that's how the British communicated at the height of Empire? Or is it some fantasy of yours to return to the days when Britain was beginning to flex its adolescent muscles?

Have you stopped taking the medication the nice man in the white coat prescribed?

Sallyann1234
1st Nov 2018, 20:14
So Mr. Banks spent £10 million on propaganda for Brexit that had no effect whatsoever on the referendum result.
What a waste of his money! Has anyone told him?

Hussar 54
1st Nov 2018, 20:34
So Mr. Banks spent £10 million on propaganda for Brexit that had no effect whatsoever on the referendum result.
What a waste of his money! Has anyone told him?


Likewise the £9 million that Cameron / Osborne / etc spent and that really did have no effect on the referendum result. Except that was UK Taxpayers money - and did they ask first ?

Maybe the UK just continued the well practiced pattern of voting for the politicos they disliked least - I mean, it must have been difficult to actually like Cameron, Osborne, Heseltine, Blair, Mandelson, etc,

At the end of the day, does it really matter, who spent how much or is it just another Remainer soundbite such as blue passports, chlorinated chicken, cliff edge, peoples vote, lorry parks, etc, etc, etc, etc.....

Sallyann1234
1st Nov 2018, 20:52
Strange that you can equate an alleged illegal payment with one made legally by the elected government.

If the government's decisions are to be deprecated, perhaps we can object to the one calling the referendum.

Hussar 54
1st Nov 2018, 21:09
Strange that you can equate an alleged illegal payment with one made legally by the elected government.

If the government's decisions are to be deprecated, perhaps we can object to the one calling the referendum.


I really have no idea whether the payments were legal or illegal - that's something which baffles many of us not in the UK, the fact that Political Parties attract ' donations ' from all and sundry and spend it more or less how they choose, whilst a group of individuals clubbed together with a common objective who received donations are closely regulated about from whom they take the donations and how they spend them.

But feel free....Object as much as you want, but it won't change the result.

As I see and understand it, the decision to hold a referendum was pure, out and out politics by Cameron simply to avoid the Conservatives losing votes and seats to UKIP but was offered with the usual arrogance of pro-EU politicos that nobody, repeat nobody, would ever vote to leave, even though the writing was there on the wall for all to see.

Sallyann1234
1st Nov 2018, 21:23
As I see and understand it, the decision to hold a referendum was pure, out and out politics by Cameron simply to avoid the Conservatives losing votes and seats to UKIP...
Well that much at least we can agree on entirely.

Parapunter
1st Nov 2018, 21:24
I really have no idea whether the payments were legal or illegal .

Then you should take more care to comment from a position of strength. The allegations surrounding Banks relate to the provenance of his loans to the grim Leave EU organisation. Cameron's leaflet & Soros' subsequent donations occured outside of regulated campaign periods & consequently are not under scrutiny. In any event, that is all besides the point. What matters here is the independence of British democracy. It is VITAL the political process is not funded & therefore under the influence of any covert foreign finance.

Banks has been shown to lie about several aspects of Leave EU's finances & has hitherto failed to offer any credible assurances on the source of his money. As I've said already today, Brexit is now a matter of blind faith for its supporters & therefore I am very happy to point out the rank hypocrisy of those who bang on about second votes undermining democracy or the will of the people but are more than happy to look the other way when it comes to serious allegations of interference in the referendum because it suits their political Christmas list.

You could go so far as to suggest those people are the polar opposite of patriots with the country's interests at heart & make a decent case for saying so.

Hussar 54
1st Nov 2018, 21:36
Then you should take more care to comment from a position of strength. The allegations surrounding Banks relate to the provenance of his loans to the grim Leave EU organisation. Cameron's leaflet & Soros' subsequent donations occured outside of regulated campaign periods & consequently are not under scrutiny. In any event, that is all besides the point. What matters here is the independence of British democracy. It is VITAL the political process is not funded & therefore under the influence of any covert foreign finance.

Banks has been shown to lie about several aspects of Leave EU's finances & has hitherto failed to offer any credible assurances on the source of his money. As I've said already today, Brexit is now a matter of blind faith for its supporters & therefore I am very happy to point out the rank hypocrisy of those who bang on about second votes undermining democracy or the will of the people but are more than happy to look the other way when it comes to serious allegations of interference in the referendum because it suits their political Christmas list.

You could go so far as to suggest those people are the polar opposite of patriots with the country's interests at heart & make a decent case for saying so.


As I said....No idea about the UK's rules, so thanks for explaining the technicality why arch capitalist Soros ( not British citizen or resident and known as The Man who broke The Bank of England ) can donate as much as he wants to reverse a democratic vote in the UK, as weird as it seems to the rest of us.

Gertrude the Wombat
1st Nov 2018, 23:05
that's something which baffles many of us not in the UK, the fact that Political Parties attract ' donations ' from all and sundry and spend it more or less how they choose
They can't. Anyone who's told you that is lying to you.

Some people can make donations and others can't, so "all and sundry" is a lie. Try handing over a company cheque for more than tuppence ha'penny and see how much paperwork you're asked for to prove that it's legal.

There are extremely strict spending rules on how much you can spend (why for example do you think that most political leaflets are printed on bog paper? - 'cos it has to be cheap to keep within the spending limits) and what you can spend it on (ever see paid political advertising on TV in the UK?), so "spend it more or less how they choose" is a lie.

So, basically, lies.

Gertrude the Wombat
1st Nov 2018, 23:10
As I see and understand it, the decision to hold a referendum ...
It is widely held that there was no such decision.

Cameron made a decision to promise a referendum but had no intention of delivering it, assuming that he would be in coalition with the LibDems again, and the LibDems would say "don't be silly", and Cameron would then be able to go to his right-wing anti-EU nutters and say "aw, shucks, I tried to get you your referendum, but it didn't quite work out, sorry about that, bloody LibDems", result everybody happy.

But he got his sums wrong and won a few too many seats, helped by Labour.

sitigeltfel
2nd Nov 2018, 05:57
If you are a UK taxpayer, you should be so proud of this. After all, it took around seven years worth of your aid money to build this...


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/660x459/80-_104111565_gettyimages_1055488804_1_b155c3ef310423980b5c1fa0 7bb5771adc20c8f5.jpg


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-46028342

Krystal n chips
2nd Nov 2018, 05:57
Given the source is the Sun, which in itself ensures minimalism takes on a whole new meaning when it comes to facts and journalistic standards, it appears there may well be some credibility for reincarnation after all.

Of course, there's the little matter of actually getting elected first and even die hard Tories should be hard pressed to salve their blue rinse consciences by scrawling an "X" in the box against his name, plus, being the modest soul he is, why bother with being a mere back bencher when you can shamelessly self promote yourself to Foreign Sec !.....now there's a classic piece of Tory democracy for the chaps to applaud.

Quite what, and why, the UK's worst PM ever, albeit Treeza is doing her best to achieve this accolade, has decided to resurrect himself remains, for now, a mystery. Maybe those who have been paying a lot of money to listen for a few minutes, compared to several years for the UK population, have realised that basically he's nothing more than a PR bolleaux orator and there are better options to spend money on than an evening with..........Dave !



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/02/david-camerons-rumoured-return-to-politics-dismays-labour-mps

Siti old boy !

" If you are a UK taxpayer, you should be so proud of this. After all, it took around seven years of your aid money to build this..."

Erm, one small query please. Where, other than in your own mind and fanciful and / or foetid imagination that is, does it say in the article that the project was funded by UK taxpayers and foreign aid ?......

Fareastdriver
2nd Nov 2018, 08:01
the project was funded by UK taxpayers and foreign aid

Because our aid released funds to build it.
I suppose it makes a change from luxury jets and mansions in London and Paris that our overseas aid to Socialist countries normally goes on.

ORAC
2nd Nov 2018, 08:45
https://order-order.com/2018/11/01/arron-banks-responds-national-crime-agency-referral/

Aaron Banks Responds

Arron Banks has issued a statement in response to the news that he has been referred to the National Crime Agency (https://order-order.com/2018/11/01/arran-banks-referred-national-crime-agency/) by the Electoral Commission:

“I am pleased that the Electoral Commission has referred me to the National Crime Agency. I am confident that a full and frank investigation will finally put an end to the ludicrous allegations levelled against me and my colleagues.

There is no evidence of any wrongdoing from the companies I own. I am a UK taxpayer and I have never received any foreign donations. The Electoral Commission has produced no evidence to the contrary.

The Electoral Commission has referred me to the National Crime Agency under intense political pressure from anti-Brexit supporters.

I am already in court with the Electoral Commission. In witness statements the commission has admitted it got its figures wrong in relation to a previous investigation and it even submitted its final report without taking evidence from us.

Isn’t it funny that none of the financial contributions made by George Soros to British political campaigns are ever subject to any level of scrutiny by the Electoral Commission despite his being a foreign national.”

The Nip
2nd Nov 2018, 08:56
It is widely held that there was no such decision.

Cameron made a decision to promise a referendum but had no intention of delivering it, assuming that he would be in coalition with the LibDems again, and the LibDems would say "don't be silly", and Cameron would then be able to go to his right-wing anti-EU nutters and say "aw, shucks, I tried to get you your referendum, but it didn't quite work out, sorry about that, bloody LibDems", result everybody happy.

But he got his sums wrong and won a few too many seats, helped by Labour.

Where is this "widely held"?

How do you know what you have written is true? Is it documented, or is it just another 'lie'?

And as far as the "result everybody happy", is obviously wrong, as the majority voted to leave.

Krystal n chips
2nd Nov 2018, 09:15
Because our aid released funds to build it.
I suppose it makes a change from luxury jets and mansions in London and Paris that our overseas aid to Socialist countries normally goes on.

Oh did it now....so is this just standard JB conjecture or do you have any corroborative evidence to show how the funding was sourced ?

Whilst you are engaged in this research, here's Treeza's vision of the past being resurrected...the past being the Empire of course. This was mentioned previously but did not, strangely, encounter any murmurs of disapproval from those on here for whom the Empire and Colonialism is sacrosanct......and she's seemingly oblivious to the fact China has already got more than a head start and probably isn't going to simply withdraw and let the British wallow in the past.

We could always send a gun boat ( well ok, a RIB with a couple of Marines and rifles ) up a river in China of course..just to remind them....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-british-uk-aid-africa-private-sector-us-france-2022-a8509791.html

ORAC
2nd Nov 2018, 10:37
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/02/met-police-opens-criminal-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism-claims

Police open antisemitism inquiry into Labour members

Scotland Yard has opened a criminal investigation into allegations of antisemitic hate crimes linked to Labour (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/labour) party members, according to the commissioner of the Metropolitan police.

Cressida Dick (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/cressida-dick) said officers had reviewed a leaked party dossier detailing 45 cases of alleged antisemitism that was passed to her in September by the radio station LBC. The UK’s most senior police officer told the BBC she believed there could be a case to answer and, as a result, the force was consulting with prosecutors on the next steps.

“We have been assessing some material that was passed to me, in a radio studio of all things, about two months ago and we are now investigating some of that material because it appears there may have been a crime committed,” Dick said. “We are liaising immediately with the Crown Prosecution Service and I hope we will be able to clear that up very quickly.”

https://order-order.com/2018/11/02/criminal-investigation-into-labour-anti-semitism-as-38-believe-corbyn-is-an-anti-semite/

Labour’s anti-Semitism problem is in the spotlight again as it emerged this morning that the Metropolitan Police have launched a criminal investigation into allegations of anti-Semitism within the party. The police have been examining an internal Labour document detailing allegations of anti-Semitism which was obtained by LBC and concluded that several allegations within it were worthy of full criminal investigations.

It comes as a new Populus/BICOM poll found that 38% of Brits believe that Corbyn himself is anti-Semitic. Only 1 in 4 people agreed that he was a “committed campaigner against racism of all kinds, including antisemitism”, while as few as 19% believed that he had “worked hard to deliver peace between Israel and the Palestinians”. Almost double that number instead thought that he “only seems interested in talking to those organisations which have been deemed terrorists by the British Government, the EU and the US State Department”. The fish rots from the head...

sitigeltfel
2nd Nov 2018, 11:01
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/02/met-police-opens-criminal-inquiry-into-labour-antisemitism-claims

Police open antisemitism inquiry into Labour members

Scotland Yard has opened a criminal investigation into allegations of antisemitic hate crimes linked to Labour (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/labour) party members, according to the commissioner of the Metropolitan police.

Cressida Dick (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/cressida-dick) said officers had reviewed a leaked party dossier detailing 45 cases of alleged antisemitism that was passed to her in September by the radio station LBC.

The UK’s most senior police officer told the BBC she believed there could be a case to answer and, as a result, the force was consulting with prosecutors on the next steps. We have been assessing some material that was passed to me, in a radio studio of all things, about two months ago and we are now investigating some of that material because it appears there may have been a crime committed,” Dick said. “We are liaising immediately with the Crown Prosecution Service and I hope we will be able to clear that up very quickly.”

https://order-order.com/2018/11/02/criminal-investigation-into-labour-anti-semitism-as-38-believe-corbyn-is-an-anti-semite/

Labour’s anti-Semitism problem is in the spotlight again as it emerged this morning that the Metropolitan Police have launched a criminal investigation into allegations of anti-Semitism within the party. The police have been examining an internal Labour document detailing allegations of anti-Semitism which was obtained by LBC and concluded that several allegations within it were worthy of full criminal investigations.

It comes as a new Populus/BICOM poll found that 38% of Brits believe that Corbyn himself is anti-Semitic. Only 1 in 4 people agreed that he was a “committed campaigner against racism of all kinds, including antisemitism”, while as few as 19% believed that he had “worked hard to deliver peace between Israel and the Palestinians”. Almost double that number instead thought that he “only seems interested in talking to those organisations which have been deemed terrorists by the British Government, the EU and the US State Department”. The fish rots from the head...





https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x360/80-white_wash_cda36425ea6bbc183d6a55584bf7de3c332352fc.jpg

LGS6753
2nd Nov 2018, 19:14
The appalling Lib Dems, who aspire to look after your money, and do so on several councils, can't even manage their own cash:

Guido hears that gallows humour has been in order at Lib Dem HQ today following the news that 25% of staff are set to be made redundant, (https://order-order.com/2018/11/02/libdem-cash-crisis-hq-slashing-25-staff/) with disgruntled staffers reportedly sending round a parody of the infamous note Liam Byrne left David Laws in the Treasury in 2010 using Vince Cable’s signature instead. While Guido has sadly not been able to procure the precise version doing the rounds in Lib Dem HQ, he has mocked up a copy for your viewing pleasure nonetheless, featuring Vince’s notoriously minimalist signature (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17298027).

Eight years ago the Lib Dems received the letter as they were entering Government – now they can’t even afford their own staff costs. Spending all your energy trying to fight Brexit isn’t looking to be a very financially sound (https://order-order.com/2018/11/02/national-union-students-verge-bankruptcy/) strategy today

sitigeltfel
2nd Nov 2018, 19:33
The appalling Lib Dems, who aspire to look after your money, and do so on several councils, can't even manage their own cash:

Another Leftie outfit, the National Union of Students, is on the verge of bankruptcy and has the begging bowl out.

Socialists and finances, the saga continues !

Curious Pax
2nd Nov 2018, 21:18
The appalling Lib Dems, who aspire to look after your money, and do so on several councils, can't even manage their own cash:

One council has even pretty much gone bust: Northamptonshire financial collapse (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/01/northamptonshire-council-forced-pay-price-reckless-half-decade)

Oh - wait a sec.....

Krystal n chips
3rd Nov 2018, 06:49
Another Leftie outfit, the National Union of Students, is on the verge of bankruptcy and has the begging bowl out.

Socialists and finances, the saga continues !

Siti old boy !

Sadly, twud appear this event has been erased from thine memory. True, Labour didn't exactly rescind the policy when they had the opportunity, but, remind us of which Gov't and political hue are so zealous when it comes to privatisation .........a helpful clue here, less thou are perplexed .......begins with a capital C ends with an e and the current, nominal, leader's initials are T.M. the surname being the same as the fifth month of the year, the one after April and before June.....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/09/carillion-collapse-exposed-government-outsourcing-flaws-report

Ever mindful of the chums affinity for their rabid patriotism, here's a bonus for you.....a link from the BBC and, containing references and terms ( such as multicultural ......I know, but, the term has not been banned by the British Board of Film Censors so it can be used in public ) which some readers "may find distressing " as they say when about to broadcast scenes of whatever form of carnage is in vogue......not the magazine chaps, to save you all wondering.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45979800

KelvinD
3rd Nov 2018, 07:04
It comes as a new Populus/BICOM poll found that 38% of Brits believe that Corbyn himself is anti-Semitic.
BICOM = Britain Israel Communications Research Centre. Well who would have thought that? An organisation representing a section of society that has been running a hate campaign against Corbyn for some time conducts a poll that comes up with some (in my opinion) bogus numbers that just happen to serve their purpose!

ORAC
3rd Nov 2018, 07:32
I believe the poll was conducted by populus - but by all means keep your head in the sand....

sitigeltfel
3rd Nov 2018, 07:40
BICOM = Britain Israel Communications Research Centre. Well who would have thought that? An organisation representing a section of society that has been running a hate campaign against Corbyn for some time conducts a poll that comes up with some (in my opinion) bogus numbers that just happen to serve their purpose!

That's where you're wrong kiddo !

The poll was conducted for them by Populus, a UK polling company. If any attempt had been made to massage or manipulate the figures, we would have heard about it. You just have to look at Populus's client list, including the British Army, to gauge their probity.

Nice try, but no cigar :ugh:

Krystal n chips
3rd Nov 2018, 07:50
That's where you're wrong kiddo !

The poll was conducted for them by Populus, a UK polling company. If any attempt had been made to massage or manipulate the figures, we would have heard about it. You just have to look at Populus's client list, including the British Army, to gauge their probity.

Nice try, but no cigar :ugh:

Siti ol boy !

Would this be the same organisation that subjects the public to those random cold calls, much commented on and not in a positive way on here , and who are conveniently exempt from the TPS perchance ?

I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about including the Army as a client exemplification either given the Army quite often has a lot to hide and prefers to present a public image which doesn't entirely reflect the reality of the organisation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populus_Ltd

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Nov 2018, 09:40
It comes as a new Populus/BICOM poll found that 38% of Brits believe that Corbyn himself is anti-Semitic.
Boggle. What on earth do the other 62% believe and how on earth did they arrive at that conclusion?

sitigeltfel
3rd Nov 2018, 10:06
Boggle. What on earth do the other 62% believe and how on earth did they arrive at that conclusion?

The next few sentences in the article tell you what you don't want to hear.

Sallyann1234
3rd Nov 2018, 12:31
Well I'm always happy to read anything that might help to keep Corbyn and company out of power. But I really don't think that there is a greater proportion of anti-Semites in the Labour Party than in any other.

From my experience, racists are spread pretty evenly throughout society. It's just that some groups are better than others at disguising it.

Of course, there are those who use the threat of calling anti-Semitism against anyone showing sympathy for Palestinians, which rather clouds the issue.

ATNotts
3rd Nov 2018, 13:56
That's where you're wrong kiddo !

The poll was conducted for them by Populus, a UK polling company. If any attempt had been made to massage or manipulate the figures, we would have heard about it. You just have to look at Populus's client list, including the British Army, to gauge their probity.

Nice try, but no cigar :ugh:

Bone Fide research companies, of which Populus is one make every effort to provide unbiased research, however he who pays the piper call the tune, and the client (BICOM in this case) will insist on questions being phrased in a way that gives then the best chance of getting the results they want to hear. Psephology is a science, and how question is posed, in which order multiple choice answers are presented, and even what answers are available to respondents will all have a bearing on the outcome of the results.

This is why, when reading the results of polls there are two questions that have to be asked. First, which organisation conducted the research, and second who commissioned the research.

Fareastdriver
3rd Nov 2018, 14:00
When a pollster approaches me in the street I always try to give them the answer that they want. You can tell by the smile on their faces.

It gives you a nice warm feeling.

ATNotts
3rd Nov 2018, 14:15
When a pollster approaches me in the street I always try to give them the answer that they want. You can tell by the smile on their faces.

It gives you a nice warm feeling.

You don't know what answer they want, as you should never be told who the research is being done on behalf of. If you are, then it is not a piece of serious research.

Moreover, you will often find very similar questions asked in subtly different ways to mitigate against people who try and offer answers they believe researchers want to hear.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Nov 2018, 14:53
When a pollster approaches me in the street ...
... I always assume that they don't know WTF they're doing. You get a random punter in the street, all you're doing is collecting data about random punters who were on that street at that time. Occasionally this is useful, but more often you want to know to whom you're talking so as to be able to do the sums to compensate for the various demographics etc.

Effluent Man
4th Nov 2018, 11:23
Arron Banks on Marr this a.m. Came across as a pretty shady character IMHO Dodged all the relevant questions, threw up a smokescreen and crucially raised the issue of Remain supporting donors, effectively saying "Well they did it too". I would have thought that if you were clean then you wouldn't attempt this defence.

Fareastdriver
4th Nov 2018, 11:53
The BBC isn't going to bring up any reference to dodgy Remain donations even if they exist.

ShotOne
4th Nov 2018, 14:39
I have no axe to grind for Mr Banks, effluent man. But it’s surely a valid question why he’s getting the whole nine-yards, yet it’s OK for George Soros, amongst others to contribute very large sums without raising questions.

Krystal n chips
4th Nov 2018, 14:56
I have no axe to grind for Mr Banks, effluent man. But it’s surely a valid question why he’s getting the whole nine-yards, yet it’s OK for George Soros, amongst others to contribute very large sums without raising questions.

No axe required.....watch C4 News and you may find he's far from the paragon you seem to assume he is. He's been, shall we say, under scrutiny for some time and he appears to have a lot of unanswered questions to contend with. Big friend of Nige as well, possibly not as much now though.

ShotOne
4th Nov 2018, 15:27
“The paragon you seem to assume he is”. You’re the one assuming; I’m not cheerleading for Banks. My point is why are remain donors exempt scrutiny.

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Nov 2018, 15:56
My point is why are remain donors exempt scrutiny.
They're not. They've been scrutinised. The lack of any great scandal all over the media is because, well, because there wasn't any great scandal. (IIRC some minor paperwork cock-ups were discovered, of the type that you will find in pretty well every election if you look closely enough.)

Gault
4th Nov 2018, 16:38
They're not. They've been scrutinised. The lack of any great scandal all over the media is because, well, because there wasn't any great scandal. (IIRC some minor paperwork cock-ups were discovered, of the type that you will find in pretty well every election if you look closely enough.)

No great scandel could of course be directly linked to no great scrutiny, there does seem to be very little stomach for showing the Negative and dodgy tactics of the remain camp in mainstream medi whilst the Beeb especially positively falls over itself to give airtime to anyone that can shout loudly about peoples votes and direct thinly veiled insults at anyone who voted leave.

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Nov 2018, 17:14
No great scandel could of course be directly linked to no great scrutiny
Can't quote chapter and verse but I was under the impression that the #brexit camp had made a number of complaints to the EC. Sure, the EC had to be dragged kicking and screaming into investigating the complaints against Leave - are you suggesting that there were no #brexit camp members prepared to do the same dragging wrt investigating Remain? "Politics is not a spectator sport."

Hussar 54
4th Nov 2018, 17:57
No great scandel could of course be directly linked to no great scrutiny, there does seem to be very little stomach for showing the Negative and dodgy tactics of the remain camp in mainstream medi whilst the Beeb especially positively falls over itself to give airtime to anyone that can shout loudly about peoples votes and direct thinly veiled insults at anyone who voted leave.


You mean like why the BBC has never asked this arseh*ole to explain his Damascus moment.....

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/559x386/blair_old_poster_5e16d393fcd63d390f5a137bdc90119495085b47.jp g

ShotOne
4th Nov 2018, 18:00
In which case, where’s the investigation into the latest £400,000 from well-known British patriot George Soros?

Parapunter
4th Nov 2018, 18:12
“The paragon you seem to assume he is”. You’re the one assuming; I’m not cheerleading for Banks. My point is why are remain donors exempt scrutiny.

If you mean Soros, as I assume you do, along with most other leavers up to & including Aaron Banks, then the key difference is Soros' donations as far as we know at this stage, were made publicly & outside of regulated campaign periods and therefore are not under the same scrutiny as Banks' £8m which he has so far singularly failed to account for up to & including his PR slot on Marr, whilst still managing to smear Carole Cadwalladr, various MP's, the electoral commission & others. The same point applies to leave's other favourite hobby horse, the government leaflet.

The law is the law & if, as I have been told ad nauseum, leaving the EU is all about taking back control of our laws, then at the very least, I expect those promoting that path to respect the law at the very least. Banks has questions to answer & the law must prevail.

ORAC
4th Nov 2018, 19:06
The Labour Party Branch too Moral to the Condemn Pittsburgh Murders ? Harry's Place (http://hurryupharry.org/2018/11/04/the-labour-party-branch-too-moral-to-the-condemn-pittsburgh-murders/)

The Labour Party Branch too Moral to Condemn the Pittsburgh Murders

Sallyann1234
4th Nov 2018, 22:46
You mean like why the BBC has never asked this arseh*ole to explain his Damascus moment.....

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/559x386/blair_old_poster_5e16d393fcd63d390f5a137bdc90119495085b47.jp g

I'd be the very last person to defend the illegal warmonger Blair, but I think even he is allowed to his change his mind on a subject after more than 30 years.
It only took Teresa May a few months to change her mind about Brexit. Was she wrong too?

Krystal n chips
5th Nov 2018, 05:00
The iconic inspiration for so many of the chaps on here, and we can only imagine the anguish that prevailed when he announced his retirement, offers his own inimitable view on UK society and politics......

Any of you care to admit you have a signed photograph and / or a figurine in a little shrine where you can worship this deity with the reverence you feel should accorded to this "voice of the people ".......( Terms and Conditions, living standards, financial status and similar criteria apply )

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/nov/04/paul-dacre-ex-daily-mail-liberal-brexit-hating-media-speech

KelvinD
5th Nov 2018, 06:32
It is all very well ranting against Mr. Banks but he is merely subject of an investigation. So far he has done nothing wrong, under the terms of our "innocent until proved guilty" for of law.
Meanwhile, there is currently one MP standing trial for election campaign financial irregularities in the Crown Court; Craig McKinley. He and his agents are accused of fiddling campaign related expenses during the 2015 general election. Isn't that perhaps where our attention should be focused?
By the way, I am not a supporter of Mr Banks. I just thought it might be right to point out the disparity in reporting the 2 cases.

Hussar 54
5th Nov 2018, 09:00
I'd be the very last person to defend the illegal warmonger Blair, but I think even he is allowed to his change his mind on a subject after more than 30 years.
It only took Teresa May a few months to change her mind about Brexit. Was she wrong too?


From events over the past couple of years, I'm with those who think that PM May hasn't really changed her mind at all.

But just pointing out that the BBC and others have never asked Blair to explain when and why, although knowing what an utter self-aggrandising tw^t Blair was and still is maybe he still sees bleating on about another referendum as the best way to further his own self-importance. After all, he has form......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ26SmDzxHE

PDR1
5th Nov 2018, 11:55
The only people who never change their minds on anything are those who have no mind to change. It's easy to understand why the mindless contingent voted pfor leave, of course...

PDR

cavortingcheetah
5th Nov 2018, 12:07
Which presupposes, if there is another referendum in Lilliput, that any first time remainer voters who change their minds and vote second time around to leave, will be changing their minds and thus using their intelligence. This will not be able to be said for any who voted to leave on the first time around and might vote to stay on the second time around. Those poor people have simply been bullied into their decision by a reign of terror that has not seen its equal emanate from France since the Terror.

ShotOne
5th Nov 2018, 12:59
Nicely put PDR. : “I’m right and anyone who disagrees is just stupid”. Way to go!

PDR1
5th Nov 2018, 13:10
Nicely put PDR. : “I’m right and anyone who disagrees is just stupid”. Way to go!

Other opinions are available; we live in a democracyso people have a democratic right to be wrong.

PDR

ATNotts
5th Nov 2018, 14:03
Other opinions are available; we live in a democracyso people have a democratic right to be wrong.

PDR

Extreme Brexiteers believe that democracy, and with it the right to change one's mind in the light of new information, was suspended at 10.00pm on 23.6.18. Extreme Remainers at least want to allow the public the right to do so, they aren't suggesting unilaterally cancelling Art 50 in the face of the 2016 result.

Pontius Navigator
5th Nov 2018, 14:28
Extreme winners believe that democracy, and with it the right to change one's mind in the light of new information, was suspended at 10.00pm on 23.6.18. Extreme losers at least want to allow the public the right to do so, they aren't suggesting unilaterally cancelling Art 50 in the face of the 2016 result.

Does that make it clearer?

BTW this is also true:

Extreme winners believe that democracy, and with it the right to change one's mind in the light of new information, was suspended at 10.00pm on 18.09.14. Extreme losers at least want to allow the public the right to do so.

Or should we have the Irish model with regular refereda until we reach the right decision?



​​​​​

Andy_S
5th Nov 2018, 15:11
Extreme Brexiteers believe that democracy, and with it the right to change one's mind in the light of new information, was suspended at 10.00pm on 23.6.18. Extreme Remainers at least want to allow the public the right to do so.

Would you have been so obliging, though, if the result of the first referendum had been 52-% - 48% to remain?

Krystal n chips
5th Nov 2018, 15:16
I've always been a bit slow, and thick, so possibly it's my memory playing up again, but, I could have sworn in the past I heard phrases like, erm, "taking back control of our borders " for example ,,but obviously, this is just the Met happily squandering a mere £2.4m on a nice set of new offices, furniture and water coolers.....and probably carpets and flowers in the mezzanine along with soft music and a totally vegetarian staff restaurant .This to appease the JB fraternity who are convinced the police have an sedentary working life....

Nothing to worry about of course........


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/05/brexit-metropolitan-police-rush-set-up-no-deal-safety-net-unit

The Nip
5th Nov 2018, 15:45
Extreme Brexiteers believe that democracy, and with it the right to change one's mind in the light of new information, was suspended at 10.00pm on 23.6.18. Extreme Remainers at least want to allow the public the right to do so, they aren't suggesting unilaterally cancelling Art 50 in the face of the 2016 result.

I agree people can change their minds. Just answer the following; IF there was another vote and remain won, can those who voted leave expect another vote 1, 2 or 3 years later? There will always be a large % who wish the alternative result. At which point is a final vote held?
It was the MPs who voted for the referendum, the very ones that a lot of people are now saying should be listened too. The HOC voted overwhelmingly for the referendum act. Only 53 MPs did NOT vote for the referendum to take place. Do you seriously think that those figures will be so overwhelming again? How do you really think it looks when certain people say that we should ignore the result, especially after they allowed the public to have a say?
What is done is done.

KelvinD
5th Nov 2018, 16:22
Is the Met perhaps guilty of protesting too much? The Guardian article says that British police accessed the Schengen Information System 539M times in 2017. Really? The population of the EU is around this figure (ca 512M). So, has every EU citizen been through that mill at least once? Or have some persons been inquired after umpteen dozen times each?
If they are really so concerned about the possible movement of unwanted visitors, they could invest a couple of thousand quid to buy a warehouse full of old ZX80s and do some checking on either passenger manifests or passports presented at the borders.
I have a suspicion this is yet another in a long list of "the sky will fall in" ploys.
And I see the Irish are bleating loudly yet again. They seem to be making much of the Good Friday agreement and how a border will screw that up. How about we put in a border, whether the EU likes it or not, and merely wave citizens of both sides through? There is your freedom of movement for the citizens referred to in the Good Friday agreement.

Gertrude the Wombat
5th Nov 2018, 16:45
Would you have been so obliging, though, if the result of the first referendum had been 52-% - 48% to remain?
Given a choice of saying:

(1) "Right, that's that sorted, we've now got a mandate to join Schengen and join the Euro and give up our rebate."

or

(2) "Whoops. that was a bit close, I think we have to take a serious look at the underlying problems here."

I think most remainers would have joined me in going for option (2).

Mac the Knife
5th Nov 2018, 16:50
I think that rather a lot of people who merrily voted leave, without understanding exactly what it would mean,
might well change their minds now that they are starting to understand what they are in for.

Much of it was sheer British bloody-mindedness, aggravated by a number of distinctly unwise EU decisions,
that Britain had a part in. Instead of pressurising the EU to think again, HMG/Cameron decided to throw all it's toys
out the cot and have a Referendum that it anticipated losing, but scaring the EU into cutting Britain a bit more slack.
Instead, the Referendum can up tails and the EU said, "Fine. you rosbifs were always whining so fckuck off!"

For Britain, a small collection of islands off the coast of Europe, to cut loose from its nearest trading partners and
go it alone (Empire, Dunkirk and "Britons are Best!") is exceedingly foolish, particularly with the USA in its present mood.

MPs of course vote for whatever will keep them in their Constituencies, with little regard for what is best for their Country.
And no, the EU will NOT give Britain a second chance, no matter how many desperate RE-JOIN! referenda there may be in the future.

de Gaulle was dead right.

Mac

“A little learning is a dangerous thing
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again."

:-( [and option 2 for me also]

The Nip
5th Nov 2018, 17:32
Given a choice of saying:

(1) "Right, that's that sorted, we've now got a mandate to join Schengen and join the Euro and give up our rebate."

or

(2) "Whoops. that was a bit close, I think we have to take a serious look at the underlying problems here."

I think most remainers would have joined me in going for option (2).

What? People had been saying for years about their concerns. Politics became very London centric. No one cared about areas with high unemployment, poor housing etc. With increased immigration, with a perceived bias towards housing priority, low paid wages, increased hospital waiting lists etc what part of the public saying this is unfair was difficult to understand?

As I have said before, don't blame those who voted leave, blame those who allowed the situation whereby some people felt that the only way to get their voices heard was to vote leave. There are now those who say that the vote should be overturned.

Do you seriously think that treating those who voted leave with such contempt will solve the problems? Because that is exactly the reason some people voted leave.

Parapunter
5th Nov 2018, 18:12
As I have said before, don't blame those who voted leave,


I don't. There's no shame in being conned, happens all the time. But you were conned. Johnson & Farage the Brexit conmen did you good style,

As for referendums, even ittby bitty Macedonia was smart enough to shoehorn in a threshold the last time they played the ask the people game & 52/48 is the living, breathing definition of a country not sure about this, mate, can we think about it?

And if it then turns out that highly targeted, aggressive advertising campaign designed specifically to hoover up that small cohort of floating voters who can swing these things was in fact backed by a Russian autocrat, highly motivated to divide & weaken a federation of states on his border, then what?

goofer3
5th Nov 2018, 18:40
How many who voted remain were conned? In local or other elections a recount is sometimes required. Even though the result in the end is sometimes very small , the result stands. They don't rerun the election.

Hussar 54
5th Nov 2018, 18:44
What? People had been saying for years about their concerns. Politics became very London centric. No one cared about areas with high unemployment, poor housing etc. With increased immigration, with a perceived bias towards housing priority, low paid wages, increased hospital waiting lists etc what part of the public saying this is unfair was difficult to understand?

As I have said before, don't blame those who voted leave, blame those who allowed the situation whereby some people felt that the only way to get their voices heard was to vote leave. There are now those who say that the vote should be overturned.

Do you seriously think that treating those who voted leave with such contempt will solve the problems? Because that is exactly the reason some people voted leave.





Absolutely dead on the mark !

Exactly the same here.

And yet the alleged political cognoscenti are still scratching their heads wondering why LePen managed to get through to the second round. Endless philosophical discussion about whether 25% of those bothering to vote are really racist, when it is was blindingly obvious but mustn't be mentioned in public - she was the only one of the four who promised a referendum on leaving the EU !

Sallyann1234
5th Nov 2018, 18:46
How many who voted remain were conned? In local or other elections a recount is sometimes required. Even thought the result in the end is sometimes very small , the result stands. They don't rerun the election.
They do actually, every five years at the most.

goofer3
5th Nov 2018, 18:50
O.K. But they don't rerun THAT election.

ATNotts
5th Nov 2018, 19:15
Would you have been so obliging, though, if the result of the first referendum had been 52-% - 48% to remain?

Had the result been the other way, then we wouldn't have got involved in invoking Art.50, fundamentally changing the way the UK and it's international relationships are managed, and perhaps most importantly for the whole of the UK, Northern Ireland and it's arrangements with the Irish Republic would have been a non issue. Changed situations require a new mandate, based on the facts of leaving rather than claims and counter claims. No point whinging about it though, since a new vote ain't about to happen no matter how many business people, barristers or whoever else calls for it, as the unity of the Conservative party is all that matters (and incidentally if the boot were on the other foot the unity of the Labour party would have been the deciding factor).

There would (as things stand at present) be no reason to consider a new referendum, peoples vote, or whatever anyone would like to call it. HOWEVER, if the EU suddenly decided that a large nation like Turkey should join the EU, or that an EU army would be formed to encompass the UK armed forces, or that the UK were to be forced to join the Euro and Schengen (all scenarios that were claimed by the remain campaign as the likely consequences were we to remain in the EU) then YES, a referendum should quite properly have been called.

Fortunately the EU wouldn't be able to inflict any of those things on the UK, or any other member state - the national veto that covers all such situations would have seen to that.

Sallyann1234
5th Nov 2018, 19:58
O.K. But they don't rerun THAT election.

They do if the same candidates stand.

Gertrude the Wombat
5th Nov 2018, 21:08
A little learning is a dangerous thing
So nice (and rare) not to see that misquoted as "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

But on the other hand I do luuuurve recursive jokes ...

(What little Pope I've picked up is because my mother was doing it for a second (and successful) chance at getting her degree whilst I was a teenager.)

Torquetalk
5th Nov 2018, 22:54
My sister was seriously thinking about voting leave; perhaps she did in the end. It was her vote so my only attempt to influence her against doing this, was to suggest weighing up which side of the argument had the overwhelmingly convinced on it: Clearly the leave campaign. What was this conviction based on? A thorough knowledge of the consequences and clear advantages for Britain? Hardly.

Having met many Brits prior to the vote, it was clear that many could not wait to have their day and make a point. Brexit was always the default position for the angry and disaffected, the nationalistic and jingoistic, and the threatened and nostalgic. And, of course, a golden opportunity for speculative capital.

I get the reason why a lot of people voted leave. If I lived in Rotherham or Doncaster, Liverpool or any number of other British cities that are poor, I’d have done the same I’m sure. But the EU has not caused that poverty. It’s been there for decades. And it is UK national governments, local councils and citizens themselves that don’t seem capable of creating a better place to live. And leaving the EU is a tragedy for those citizens who think that leaving is the path to salvation. Because the people in power will be the same inept, corrupt and visionless monkeys whose leadership that oversaw that poverty in the first place. Who really believes that those mentioned towns will be flourishing hubs of Britain 20 years after Brexit?

As if! And sadly, I bet a lot of those who voted leave don’t believe it either. It was a vote of powerlessness and desperation. But it was also a vote for more of the same and worse. It is those towns that will feel it most when EU investment in deprived regions stops; when the UK government is driven to further austerity due to reduced trading volumes. And when the next debt default wave hits. Is Sterling likely to be a currency of flight post-Brexit?

The other thing I didn’t day to my sister was to ask which side of the argument had pretty much all the nutters on it? But I guess that even after the killing of Jo Cox, people just don’t see where xenophobia and nationalism leads.

Enoch Powell talked about immigration leading to blood on the streets due to interracial violence – he was wrong.
France and Germany entered a trading pact with the aim of ensuring peace between two great European rivals – they were right.

In 6 months EU citizenship ends for UK citizens. But if there were to be a major war in Europe, we’d still up fighting in defence of and for the rights of our mainland neighbours and the island nations. In fact, for the rights which we already have. How f-ing stupid.

TURIN
5th Nov 2018, 23:15
HOWEVER, if the EU suddenly decided that a large nation like Turkey should join the EU, or that an EU army would be formed to encompass the UK armed forces, or that the UK were to be forced to join the Euro and Schengen (all scenarios that were claimed by the remain campaign as the likely consequences were we to remain in the EU)

Er, no they were the erroneous claims made by the leave campaigners. Farage in particular got on his high horse as often as possible to make all those claims, especially the idea that Turkey would join soon. Utter garbage as usual from the UKIP mouth peice.

Sallyann1234
6th Nov 2018, 09:10
My sister was seriously thinking about voting leave; perhaps she did in the end. It was her vote so my only attempt to influence her against doing this, was to suggest weighing up which side of the argument had the overwhelmingly convinced on it: Clearly the leave campaign. What was this conviction based on? A thorough knowledge of the consequences and clear advantages for Britain? Hardly.

Having met many Brits prior to the vote, it was clear that many could not wait to have their day and make a point. Brexit was always the default position for the angry and disaffected, the nationalistic and jingoistic, and the threatened and nostalgic. And, of course, a golden opportunity for speculative capital.

I get the reason why a lot of people voted leave. If I lived in Rotherham or Doncaster, Liverpool or any number of other British cities that are poor, I’d have done the same I’m sure. But the EU has not caused that poverty. It’s been there for decades. And it is UK national governments, local councils and citizens themselves that don’t seem capable of creating a better place to live. And leaving the EU is a tragedy for those citizens who think that leaving is the path to salvation. Because the people in power will be the same inept, corrupt and visionless monkeys whose leadership that oversaw that poverty in the first place. Who really believes that those mentioned towns will be flourishing hubs of Britain 20 years after Brexit?

As if! And sadly, I bet a lot of those who voted leave don’t believe it either. It was a vote of powerlessness and desperation. But it was also a vote for more of the same and worse. It is those towns that will feel it most when EU investment in deprived regions stops; when the UK government is driven to further austerity due to reduced trading volumes. And when the next debt default wave hits. Is Sterling likely to be a currency of flight post-Brexit?

The other thing I didn’t day to my sister was to ask which side of the argument had pretty much all the nutters on it? But I guess that even after the killing of Jo Cox, people just don’t see where xenophobia and nationalism leads.

Enoch Powell talked about immigration leading to blood on the streets due to interracial violence – he was wrong.
France and Germany entered a trading pact with the aim of ensuring peace between two great European rivals – they were right.

In 6 months EU citizenship ends for UK citizens. But if there were to be a major war in Europe, we’d still up fighting in defence of and for the rights of our mainland neighbours and the island nations. In fact, for the rights which we already have. How f-ing stupid.
Absolutely correct. There's nothing more to be said.

Mac the Knife
6th Nov 2018, 14:39
"As I have said before, don't blame those who voted leave, blame those who allowed the situation whereby some people felt that the only way to get their voices heard was to vote leave. There are now those who say that the vote should be overturned. Do you seriously think that treating those who voted leave with such contempt will solve the problems? Because that is exactly the reason some people voted leave."

Spot on!

Mac

Torquetalk (and Sallyann1234) says it all - well spoken!
And for those with a historical bent, that is what happened in Germany in 1933...

Krystal n chips
7th Nov 2018, 04:07
It's the rebuttal in the last paragraph that's so ironic really......because unfortunately, "shut up and go away " being but one classic example......you would expect such content.

Thus we await the Mail / Excess headlines to duly reflect this cunning plan to assure the public all is now seamlessly completed .......apart from that is.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/06/leaked-plan-to-sell-brexit-deal-measured-success-is-the-narrative

ShotOne
7th Nov 2018, 07:06
“Assure the public is seamlessly completed..?” Nobody Has remotely suggested anything is complete. Not least because even if, against the odds, we come up with an acceptable deal, or (even more unlikely)a great one, Labour will devote their full resources to scupper and sabotage it.

Gipsy Queen
8th Nov 2018, 00:22
I'd be the very last person to defend the illegal warmonger Blair, but I think even he is allowed to his change his mind on a subject after more than 30 years.
It only took Teresa May a few months to change her mind about Brexit. Was she wrong too?

She has not changed her mind. She is pursuing the policies and following the instructions of those who supported her installation as PM and for the express purpose of frustrating the democratically expressed desire of the electorate to leave the EU. She was and continues to be a Remainer and as can be determined from her scandalously inept handling of the process, she is fulfilling her brief rather well.

Parapunter
8th Nov 2018, 09:23
She has not changed her mind. She is pursuing the policies and following the instructions of those who supported her installation as PM and for the express purpose of frustrating the democratically expressed desire of the electorate to leave the EU. She was and continues to be a Remainer and as can be determined from her scandalously inept handling of the process, she is fulfilling her brief rather well.

The blind dogma of the leaver. It's an article of faith that anything other than pulling up the drawbridge & cutting off those smelly furriners is a full on betrayal of 'the will of the people'. I'm amazed you didn't shoehorn Olly Robbins the remain traitor in. It would have been the Brexit bingo. It never ceases to amaze me how myopically some people treat this, as if it's some kind of rubber stamping exercise & not in fact a demonstrably undeliverable fantasy fuelled by forty years of lies by the right wing press & the swivel eyed loony wing of the Tory party. As I've said before, this rubbish is transactional, all that matters is Brexit day & stuff the country.

Gipsy Queen
8th Nov 2018, 13:29
The blind dogma of the leaver. It's an article of faith that anything other than pulling up the drawbridge & cutting off those smelly furriners is a full on betrayal of 'the will of the people'. I'm amazed you didn't shoehorn Olly Robbins the remain traitor in. It would have been the Brexit bingo. It never ceases to amaze me how myopically some people treat this, as if it's some kind of rubber stamping exercise & not in fact a demonstrably undeliverable fantasy fuelled by forty years of lies by the right wing press & the swivel eyed loony wing of the Tory party. As I've said before, this rubbish is transactional, all that matters is Brexit day & stuff the country.

Oh dear - this seems a rather unreasoned response to something which I did not mention. I fear, Parapunter, that in your haste to express your views, you have missed the point of what I was seeking to convey.

My argument does not concern the merits or otherwise of either the Remain or Leave camps; my concern arises from the blatant denial of popular democracy by the establishment - and I'll make the point before I'm gagged by one of Theresa May's non-disclosure orders. This reprehensible behaviour has attended every national plebiscite/referendum relating to membership of the EU - vide Holland, France, Ireland et al and now, following the failure of Project Fear, it is being applied here again. Deafening is the clamour for a "people's referendum". Who the hell is thought to have participated in the referendum of 2016?

Even if you had been alive at the time, you may not have been old enough to have understood the political situation attending the general elections of 1974. After the hung parliament of earlier in the year, the October election returned Harold Wilson with a majority of only three members in the Commons and a lead in the popular vote of fewer people than was recorded in the EU referendum; in both numerical and percentage terms, this was less than the result of 2016. Nevertheless, the contest had been won, Wilson formed a government and nobody sought to question its legitimacy. That was how things were done. Seemingly things are different now - we go on voting until the EU gets its way. This is NOT democracy and that is my point.

Parapunter
8th Nov 2018, 14:34
Er, what denial of democracy? The government you seem to loathe so much is committed to leaving the EU. It's said so enough times.


Or is this slightly swivel eyed rant more about not getting the precise, exact Brexit YOU want, despite the blindingly obvious truth that no one knows what that is, since the government didn't offer a precis of how it would supersede 40 years & 700 separate agreements prior to placing a big red button marked 'blow up Westminster elites' in front of a bunch of politically myopic trawler-men (GDP contribution 2%) & has now spent two wasted years arguing with itself on the very same point.

Dammit all man, what do you want???

Effluent Man
8th Nov 2018, 15:39
I seriously thought about voting Leave. My motivation would primarily have been to give Cameron a bloody nose. I thought seriously enough to go to,the polling station and get a ballot paper. In the end I put it in the box unmarked. The main reason that I didn't carry through with my plan was Boris. I didn't believe a word he said and I'm pretty sure that if Remain could have delivered him the job of PM he would have been a passionate Remainer. The man is a cad and a bounder.

Hussar 54
8th Nov 2018, 15:43
Er, what denial of democracy? The government you seem to loathe so much is committed to leaving the EU. It's said so enough times.


Or is this slightly swivel eyed rant more about not getting the precise, exact Brexit YOU want, despite the blindingly obvious truth that no one knows what that is, since the government didn't offer a precis of how it would supersede 40 years & 700 separate agreements prior to placing a big red button marked 'blow up Westminster elites' in front of a bunch of politically myopic trawler-men (GDP contribution 2%) & has now spent two wasted years arguing with itself on the very same point.

Dammit all man, what do you want???

First bit - And which is why so many people, not just those in the UK, want no more of the EU. It's like a computer virus - once in place, it gets into your daily life and controls everything you want to or try to do, and like a computer virus, you can't change it or modify it. You have to erase it, reload your OS, and start again. All of which takes time and effort, but when you've finished, your machine works more quickly and efficiently.

Second bit - You're almost correct here....Too many politicos ( current and ex , Conservative and Socialist, UK and European ) doing their best to frustrate and stop the UK from leaving the EU with a simple Free Trade Agreement which, I will say again, the UK would sign this evening but apparently the EU put their ideology above the economic wellbeing of its citizens.

Parapunter
8th Nov 2018, 16:18
Second bit - You're almost correct here....Too many politicos ( current and ex , Conservative and Socialist, UK and European ) doing their best to frustrate and stop the UK from leaving the EU with a simple Free Trade Agreement which, I will say again, the UK would sign this evening but apparently the EU put their ideology above the economic wellbeing of its citizens.

Wibble. Completely delusional nonsense.

Hussar 54
8th Nov 2018, 16:24
Wibble. Completely delusional nonsense.


Do explain, please, which bit is wibble and why.

Do explain, please, which bit is delusional and why.

And do explain, please, which bit is nonsense and why.

Many Thanks in advance,

Krystal n chips
8th Nov 2018, 16:52
As we know, Mr Raab wasn't exactly a front runner for this prominent position, not so much plucked from obscurity, more extruded from a depleted barrel, and thus far he's more than fulfilled his capability to enthral us with his sagacity ..this latest offering being truly "World Class " in this respect.

It's terribly reassuring therefore, to learn, that, he hasn't "quite understood " what that little seaside hamlet, with a quaint little quay, nestling in the chalk cliffs of Kent overlooking about 22 miles of sea actually does.....

But, he has grasped that the UK is an island !...so top of the geography class and a Gold star plus an extra jammy dodger there for you Dominic !

You'll excuse me for saying, even with a rational detestation of Tory policies and the majority of Tory politicians......there are some who are very capable as I've said before....... the capabilities of one D.Raab don't exactly inspire confidence for the UK's future

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188

Parapunter
8th Nov 2018, 17:16
Do explain, please, which bit is wibble and why.

Do explain, please, which bit is delusional and why.

And do explain, please, which bit is nonsense and why.

Many Thanks in advance,

All of it. There is no 'simple' free trade deal by definition. They are always the polar opposite of how you characterised them & moreover, we are yet to finalise the terms of departure, much less any trade deal, which tells me what I already knew: Beyond repeating anti EU tropes, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Hussar 54
8th Nov 2018, 17:23
All of it. There is no 'simple' free trade deal by definition. They are always the polar opposite of how you characterised them & moreover, we are yet to finalise the terms of departure, much less any trade deal, which tells me what I already knew: Beyond repeating anti EU tropes, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Thank You for that simple reply.

I'll add you to those millions of the self-opionated who think they are so, so superior to everyone else that they don't even need to explain, just insult.

Just a spotter
8th Nov 2018, 17:42
Well now,

In terms of grasping difficult topics, it seems Minister Raab has managed to understand the rudimentary concept of Plate Tectonics (You can see the cogs turning ... Oh, Britain isn't the all connected centre of everywhere, and we're literally cut off from everything and everyone else by water! Who knew!? We are literally an island you say. I thought that was a metaphor!) and Economics (cog ... slowly ... clicking ... whirring ... so, everything does come from further out than the m25 and you need more than a big lorry. A boat you say. How very novel. And where do we park that? The port of Dover no less. Fascinating. Where do all the boats come from and what's on them ....).

Couple that with Karen Bradley's recent insights into the politics of Northern Ireland along with the Windrush scandal and you really have to ask about the caliber of individuals with their hands on the levers of power in the UK.

If it were Trump, we'd shrug our shoulders and muble "typical", but somehow we're led to believe we should expect more from HMGov.

JAS

Parapunter
8th Nov 2018, 17:51
Thank You for that simple reply.

I'll add you to those millions of the self-opionated who think they are so, so superior to everyone else that they don't even need to explain, just insult.

Well, I did in fact explain. So sorry the explanation didn't meet with the fantastic requirements of your preconceptions per the Daily Express, Telegraph, etc.

Hussar 54
8th Nov 2018, 17:54
Well, I did in fact explain. So sorry the explanation didn't meet with the fantastic requirements of your preconceptions per the Daily Express, Telegraph, etc.

Well...I'd reply but you're on my Ignore List....Or is it my Can't Be Arsed List....Probably even both....

Torquetalk
8th Nov 2018, 19:10
Hussar 54

It’s very reassuring and generous of you to tell Britains that Brexit is a virus-ridding exercise, could actually be quite straight-forward, and obviously for the better: from France.

Why don’t you just keep your nose out of British business, you cheeky bloody European.

Torquetalk
8th Nov 2018, 19:25
you really have to ask about the caliber of individuals with their hands on the levers of power in the UK

Indeed. A corn-flake choking moment for me, was a Raab BBC interview in which he glibly reassured the interviewer that concerns about backlogs at Dover and other borders were exaggerated because “the private sector knows what it is doing”. Failing to grasp that it is the competent authorities that decide this and not buccaneers with their best blagging pants on, is just shocking.

I wonder how many civil servants have knawed the better part of at least one hand off in the last two years?

Hussar 54
8th Nov 2018, 20:37
Hussar 54

It’s very reassuring and generous of you to tell Britains that Brexit is a virus-ridding exercise, could actually be quite straight-forward, and obviously for the better: from France.

Why don’t you just keep your nose out of British business, you cheeky bloody European.



I thought that it is only the UK's Leavers who are xenophobes....

Effluent Man
8th Nov 2018, 21:44
The net seems to be closing on Arron Banks. Money transferred from a company called "Ural Properties" based in Gibraltar. He seems to have inadvertently sent an incriminating e mail to the. BBC spilling an awful lot of beans.

Gipsy Queen
9th Nov 2018, 00:22
Er, what denial of democracy? The government you seem to loathe so much is committed to leaving the EU. It's said so enough times.

The denial of democracy is self-evident and as for the government, I don't "seem" to loathe it - I positively hate it! Sadly, what we have is a bunch of quisling, third rate cardboard cut-outs masquerading as a government and this coupled with a wholly ineffective Opposition, has led us into the situation we now face. And it is because I am a natural Conservative that I am so incensed by the behaviour of this hopeless crew acting in the name of my political affiliation.

However, there is a very strong tendency to conflate the issues here. I suspect that it widely is supposed that because of the "insuperable" difficulties attending our negotiations to leave, it follows that the leaving premise fundamentally is flawed and therefore should not be pursued, or better, reversed. This is a specious view. Those of this persuasion fail to understand that the probity and cogency of the Leave arguments are demonstrably beyond any peradventure - it is the totally inept handling of the matter by the present government which often is seen as the embodiment of the Leave argument. It is very difficult to criticise the performance of the EU negotiators when faced with the intellectual might of the Maybot and her sycophants. (Psychophants?). I think, in some measure, this has been demonstrated by Effluent Man - sensible argument has been subordinated by grand-standing personalities.

Krystal n chips
9th Nov 2018, 06:16
"There'll be bluebirds over.......etc, "......a new addition to Raab's list for an appearance on "Desert Island Discs " perhaps ?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/nov/08/steve-bell-on-dominic-raab-and-post-brexit-trade-cartoon

Now, without being alarmist, some of the chaps on here may well be reaching for a few triple snorters to sous the cornflakes, or cold porridge and kedgeree with, after reading this !......given their perception of the status of women

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/08/worlds-female-mps-gather-in-london-and-pledge-to-form-giant-sisterhood

ORAC
9th Nov 2018, 06:33
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/no-deal-plan-will-include-new-border-in-irish-sea-3qqc908gh

No-deal plan ‘will include new border in Irish Sea’

A Brussels plan to put a customs border in the Irish Sea if there is no Brexit agreement (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/what-s-the-deal-with-a-no-deal-brexit-v3sc9m59n) will be included in a divorce deal, a leaked letter from Theresa May suggests.

The prime minister was accused last night of breaking her promise to the Democratic Unionist Party that she would never sign up to a deal that could allow Northern Ireland to be divided from the rest of the United Kingdom. The European plan, known as the “backstop to the backstop (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/q-a-what-is-the-irish-backstop-question-mwx876c8v)”, would leave Northern Ireland tied to the single market and customs union if Brexit talks collapse. Brussels wants this insurance policy to avoid a hard border in Ireland. (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-and-the-irish-border-jcm02pmz0)Mrs May has previously said that no UK prime minister could ever agree to such a plan.

The five-page letter, leaked to The Times (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-and-the-irish-border-extracts-from-the-leaked-letter-9872clh3x), was sent on Tuesday from Mrs May to Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, and Nigel Dodds, her deputy. In it, the prime minister says that the EU is still pushing for the “backstop to the backstop” but insists that she would never allow a divide between Ulster and Great Britain to “come into force”. This wording has been interpreted by the DUP (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/topic/democratic-unionist-party?page=1) to mean that the clause will nevertheless be inserted into the legally binding agreement......

The letter also says that the government does “not expect regulations to diverge between Great Britain and Northern Ireland” during the backstop, meaning the whole of the UK will be tied closely to European rules...........

Experts said that Mrs May’s letter indicates that Britain may have to sign up to the EU’s insurance policy, which would come into force only if Britain withdraws from the first backstop. This puts the whole UK in a customs union with Europe......... Sam Lowe, a trade expert from the Centre for European Reform, said: “If, as it appears, the UK is close to accepting the presence of a Northern Ireland-specific backstop, albeit one they wish to supplement with a whole-UK customs union, then this is good news for the withdrawal negotiations. However it will create problems for Mrs May with the DUP.”

The letter also suggests that Northern Ireland “could require specific alignment solutions in some scenarios”, and raises the possibility of further checks on agricultural goods moving between it and mainland Britain.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, chairman of the European Research Group of MPs, said: “None of this works at all. To say, ‘because I’ve been incompetent in the negotiation so far I’m going to have to agree to a final backstop that could undermine the integrity of the UK, but go on to say, trust me because I’ll be more competent in my future negotiation than I have in the ones to date’, is a line that lacks credibility. It contradicts what she said to the Commons.”

In February, Mrs May told the Commons that a draft deal by the EU “would, if implemented, undermine the UK common market and threaten the constitutional integrity of the UK by creating a customs and regulatory border down the Irish Sea, and no UK prime minister could ever agree to it”.........

Sallyann1234
9th Nov 2018, 07:30
This is now just getting ridiculous.

Why sign up to a legally binding treaty, while insisting that you will never implement part of it?
And even this stop-gap is only predicated on the eventual agreement of a satisfactory final trade agreement that will take years if ever to agree.

How appropriate for the pantomime season...
"The border is behind you!"
"Oh no it's not!"

Parapunter
9th Nov 2018, 07:55
The denial of democracy is self-evident
Oh dear.

a bunch of quisling,
Oh dear oh dear. Is it being a 'natural Conservative that causes you to repeatedly punt sixth form conjecture is immutable fact?



I suspect that it widely is supposed that because of the "insuperable" difficulties attending our negotiations to leave, it follows that the leaving premise fundamentally is flawed and therefore should not be pursued, or better, reversed. This is a specious view. Those of this persuasion fail to understand that the probity and cogency of the Leave arguments are demonstrably beyond any peradventure

Oh look, you've done it again. I did ask you to clarify previously exactly what leaving means, but you have declined to respond, preferring instead to dismiss anything other than your entirely unspecified but must happen version of Brexit as 'specious' simultaneously claiming leave arguments are beyond *pushes glasses up nose* 'peradventure'.

It all adds up to a magical Oz style return to that classic leaver phenomenon I pointed out earlier in the thread, namely that I'm yet to encounter a leaver capable of articulating a cogent & realistic version of Brexit that won't screw the country because doing so is an entirely contradictory thought experiment.

On one point we agree though. This government is guilty of the worst kind of infantilism of British politics in a generation or more. It is presiding over the worst wholesale dismantling of trade & diplomatic relations in living memory & the mother & father of this disaster was the lie that we could have a Canada style arrangement with the EU & still maintain frictionless trade across the Irish border. The child of that lie was that you could have current levels and mechanisms of trade while taking back complete sovereignty over your laws. This was false, because frictionless trade involves giving up some degree of control of regulations and tariffs, but it was ignored repeatedly anyway.

May always knew that was a lie & failed to address it, just as she's failed to level with the people at any stage of this & now we see the chaos flowing from it as one after another, the leaver solutions - tech borders, ambitious fta's fell by the wayside. But sure, it's much easier to ignore Aaron Banks' machinations & a wafer thin mandate & to wave a hand glibly & call ministers quislings & demand we leave today, preferably before lunch. All of that is surely rooted in how the world actually works whilst you fish out the dictionary & look up words like peradventure & deploy them as knockout blows against those traitorous remainers.

Gipsy Queen
9th Nov 2018, 09:10
On one point we agree though. This government is guilty of the worst kind of infantilism of British politics in a generation or more. It is presiding over the worst wholesale dismantling of trade & diplomatic relations in living memory & the mother & father of this disaster was the lie that we could have a Canada style arrangement with the EU & still maintain frictionless trade across the Irish border. The child of that lie was that you could have current levels and mechanisms of trade while taking back complete sovereignty over your laws. This was false, because frictionless trade involves giving up some degree of control of regulations and tariffs, but it was ignored repeatedly anyway.

Phew! - a point of agreement at last!

And a point in this adversarial diatribe at which it would be appropriate for me to leave the field to others. I regret that Hussar 54 was so rudely addressed by one failing to recognise him as a fellow European of equal political standing. I thought Johnny Foreigner was a legacy of history perpetuated by the raving xenophobics of the loony Leave brigade. And I regret also that as so often happens with contemporary discourse, the fruits of education are scorned by les sans culottes. Mais plus ca change . . .

I'm outta here.

Torquetalk
9th Nov 2018, 10:48
I thought that it is only the UK's Leavers who are xenophobes....

Not at all a xenophobe. You and Gypsy Queen do not appear to have a very big irony register.

KelvinD
9th Nov 2018, 15:17
And the edifice continues to crumble. Jo Johnson, brother of the class idiot, has quit the cabinet. There should be smoke coming from the hinges of the revolving door to the cabinet by now!

pax britanica
9th Nov 2018, 16:41
So with now just a few months to go we have no deal no trade agreements promised-we cannot sign them till after we leave but we could have at least one on the back burner but apparently we have'nt any. typically they take years to negotiate although I am sure that kind Mr trump will offer us one that is entirely in favour of the US (sorry I mean favor) . Reducing us to t he status of Puerto rRco not even a state . Here's the deal take it or you are screwed because we will object to you joining WTO.

So Mrs M why not just have a second referendum-its no t that hard , a lot of people have changed their minds , but pretty much only one way , more younger people can vote and even with a deal in place it will be continue to be sabotaged because the people in a position to do that nearly all voted remain. But no you allow ahnadful of lunatic Ulster people to call the shots on the most divisive issue in Britain since the civil war.

And as for so quitters accusing remainers of intellectual arrogance -should they be criticised for actually understanding whats going on or in our badly educated ignorant society should e give more weight to people who I have seen on bulletin boards and TV and Pprune in fact say things like

I voted leave because we should have an Empire again

I don't care about Eu countries charging us for Visas 'cos I always go to Tenerfie

This (the Ryanair story) is a typical Eu attack on a British company -how stupid can you be not to get a little hint from the fact it is 'RYAN' air CEO Mr O'Leary .

​​​​​​​And well said to the poster who exposed our politicians greed venality ignorance and arrogance for managing our country into poverty for millions, un affordable housing , failing NHS, no adequate police force , ludicrously imbalanced armed forces with Aircraft carriers when we need surveillance drones and 'hackers' etc etc..

But no there cannot be another vote under any circumstances because it will essentially destroy the conservative party and unlike Winston Churchill's words about a colleague , that he is a great man because he puts party before himself and his country before party- today it is the other way around. Kind of fits Boris perfectly which is ironic as he sees himself as a second Churchill deluded as he is.

Ancient Observer
9th Nov 2018, 16:50
There is a lot of wasted typing on this thread.

I wonder whether the shrink recommended it as an activity for some?

Torquetalk
10th Nov 2018, 07:11
I wonder whether the shrink recommended it as an activity for some?

Perhaps we‘ll see Teersa Dismay on here soon

ORAC
10th Nov 2018, 07:25
POLITICO:Jeremy Corbyn: ‘We can’t stop Brexit’

The Labour leader told Der Spiegel it was important to understand why people voted to leave the European Union.

11/9/18, 8:04 PM CET

Brexit can’t be stopped, according to U.K. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

In an interview with Germany’s Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-labour-leader-corbyn-we-can-t-stop-brexit-a-1237594.html), extracts of which were published today, Corbyn was asked if he would stop Brexit if he could because the U.K. is so divided.said. “The referendum took place. Article 50 has been triggered. What we can do is recognize the reasons why people voted Leave.”

“I think a lot of people have been totally angered by the way in which their communities have been left behind. We had high Leave votes in the most left-behind areas of the country. In a lot of deprived areas, working conditions have deteriorated over the decades, protected by European legislation.”........

Krystal n chips
10th Nov 2018, 08:03
There's a very poignant and sombre correlation depicted here.....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2018/nov/09/martin-rowson-on-brexit-talks-and-armistice-day

Parapunter
10th Nov 2018, 08:07
My shrink approves this message.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/dromqldxqaaelwm_jpg_large_fba04f79c72834df725ba86149e3e63bd6 7787bc.jpg

Gault
10th Nov 2018, 10:47
There's a very poignant and sombre correlation depicted here.....



Please do NOT use caricatures of the fallen to express your political ideals.

(is there a method to report posts here?)

sitigeltfel
10th Nov 2018, 11:49
Corbyn put out this tweet last night...

"On the 80th anniversary of the horrors of Kristallnacht, when Jews in Germany faced murder and deportation, the hate-filled ideologies of the far right are on the rise again. We stand united with Jewish people and all communities against antisemitism and fascism."

Shame, irony and hypocrisy doesn't feature in his world.

Eddie Dean
10th Nov 2018, 11:56
Corbyn put out this tweet last night...

"On the 80th anniversary of the horrors of Kristallnacht, when Jews in Germany faced murder and deportation, the hate-filled ideologies of the far right are on the rise again. We stand united with Jewish people and all communities against antisemitism and fascism."

Shame, irony and hypocrisy doesn't feature in his world.The irony I see is that England refused to allow the Jewish peoples into England at that time.

ShotOne
10th Nov 2018, 13:04
As (shamefully) did almost every other country. Ostensibly so as not to facilitate the Nazi agenda of mass-deportation. In reality possibly mixed with less noble motives. Good piece of whataboutery that doesn’t get Labour off for it’s cynical present-day behaviour.

Torquetalk
10th Nov 2018, 13:13
[QUOTE=sitigeltfel;10307332]Corbyn put out this tweet last night...

The irony I see is that England refused to allow the Jewish peoples into England at that time.

UK, not England.

Interesting to a speculate where Britian would be now had it taken a different course then and offered asylum.

Pontius Navigator
10th Nov 2018, 13:31
POLITICO:Jeremy Corbyn: ‘We can’t stop Brexit’

The Labour leader told Der Spiegel it was important to understand why people voted to leave the European Union.

11/9/18, 8:04 PM CET

Brexit can’t be stopped, according to U.K. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.

In an interview with Germany’s Der Spiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-labour-leader-corbyn-we-can-t-stop-brexit-a-1237594.html),


For the sake of accuracy and clarity, was that 11th Sep or 9th Nov?

ATNotts
10th Nov 2018, 14:45
As (shamefully) did almost every other country. Ostensibly so as not to facilitate the Nazi agenda of mass-deportation. In reality possibly mixed with less noble motives. Good piece of whataboutery that doesn’t get Labour off for it’s cynical present-day behaviour.

One can only assume that the current trait of being anti migrant has it's roots rather further back in History as June 2016, or indeed the Windrush generation. Absolutely shameful.

Sallyann1234
10th Nov 2018, 14:52
Mr Johnson said that the prime minister had mishandled Brexit. “It has become increasingly clear to me that the withdrawal agreement, which is being finalised in Brussels and Whitehall even as I write, will be a terrible mistake. The first option is the one the government is proposing: an agreement that will leave our country economically weakened . . . The second option is a no-deal Brexit that I know as a transport minister will inflict untold damage on our nation. To present the nation with a choice between two deeply unattractive outcomes, vassalage and chaos, is a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis.”
What a situation for our once proud nation. No wonder we have become a laughing stock across Europe.

PDR1
10th Nov 2018, 15:39
And the edifice continues to crumble. Jo Johnson, brother of the class idiot, has quit the cabinet. There should be smoke coming from the hinges of the revolving door to the cabinet by now!

Minor quibble - he has resigned from the Government, not the cabinet. He was "Minister of State" for transport (and Minister for London, as a concurrent post) and this is the middle of the three ministerial ranks - it's above "parliamentary under-secretary" and below "Secretary of State". Only those with the rank of "Secretary of State" are generally included in the Cabinet, although there can be co-opted members of lesser ranks when wanted. JoJo wasn't ever in the cabinet, although some felt he was being groomed for a cabinet post in the next reshuffle.

PDR

Torquetalk
10th Nov 2018, 15:46
One can only assume that the current trait of being anti migrant has it's roots rather further back in History as June 2016, or indeed the Windrush generation. Absolutely shameful.

quite content to see a goodly number in the 17th century.

On the other hand, refuge given to no less than the great disrupter, Karl Marx.

Pontius Navigator
10th Nov 2018, 15:59
One can only assume that the current trait of being anti migrant has it's roots rather further back in History as June 2016, or indeed the Windrush generation. Absolutely shameful.
I am no sure there are parallels. Post War we had an active emigration to the colonies especially Australia and also Government sponsored immigration from the Caribbean to do essentially manual jobs. I don't think the public had much say in the matter.

I think public protest arose later as particular cities became saturated with individual immigrant groups who displaced the indigenous population. Some groups integrated, particularly those displaced from Uganda but other simply took over their area.

Torquetalk
10th Nov 2018, 16:17
I think public protest arose later as particular cities became saturated with individual immigrant groups who displaced the indigenous population. Some groups integrated, particularly those displaced from Uganda but other simply took over their area.

You are surely right about distinguishing between government policy of active migration in order not to stifle growth and public reaction to it. But I doubt very much if there was a time lag between policy-driven immigration and public resistance to it.

More still, „oversaturation“ and „displacing the indigenous polpulation“ are theories that the far right love to propagate. Most white indigenous migration in the UK and elsewhere has been “white flight“, leaving an increasing concentration of poorer and less skilled white residents behind. Economic migrants move to the cheapest places to live in places they can find work and support networks. Who wouldn‘t? Naturally, this can in time lead to a situation where the total population of first to third generation migrants outnumbers the ethnicity of people who can trace their indigony over many more

Vanley Burke‘s biography currently broadcast on Desert Island Discs gives insight into how this works at a personal level.

Torquetalk
10th Nov 2018, 16:25
Minor quibble - he has resigned from the Government, not the Cabinet
PDR

Tell me, when you put your head in the sand, do the legs stick out or do you do it kneeling?

ORAC
10th Nov 2018, 16:27
For the sake of accuracy and clarity, was that 11th Sep or 9th Nov?

9th November

Interview with Labour Leader Corbyn: 'We Can't Stop Brexit' - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/interview-with-labour-leader-corbyn-we-can-t-stop-brexit-a-1237594.html)

Effluent Man
10th Nov 2018, 21:25
What you fail to realise is the reason that Corbyn is taking this line. He knows that Brexit is going to be a disaster and he hopes to clean up politically on he fallout. It's a completely cynical move and the government is playing right into his hands,

Sallyann1234
10th Nov 2018, 21:45
Exactly. Corbyn may be a crypto-communist, but he is not a complete fool.

Torquetalk
10th Nov 2018, 22:36
Indeed, why on earth would Corbyn take a clear position, knowing that Brexit is a poisoned chalice whichever side you chose to drink from. Accusing him of cynicism rather misses the reality of this and the fact that it was a cocksure Conservative party with a large majority which embarked on this fiasco.

Labour MPs should vote in the national interest when the “deal” or lack of it is finally known. Assuming that is, that there is agreement about what that might be. The UK is going to come out of this worse off than it was, whatever happens. Whichever position is taken, many MPs can expect to be deselected for disappointing one section of the electorate or the other. What a complete mess.

cavortingcheetah
10th Nov 2018, 23:00
Neither Corbyn or McDonnell want to see Brexit fail or to run that risk with a referendum on the referendum. Were Britain to remain in the EU the Marxist leadership of the çi devant Labour Party would not be able to initiate much of their proposed interventionist tax policy.

sitigeltfel
11th Nov 2018, 05:46
Re the quote in post#148, my post #145 has been manipulated to show something I did not write ! :=

ORAC
11th Nov 2018, 07:25
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/may-s-brexit-deal-crashes-as-eu-turns-off-life-support-fg02wktsp

Theresa May’s Brexit deal crashes as EU ‘turns off life support’

Theresa May has been plunged into a deeper crisis after Brussels rejected her key Brexit proposal, which was intended to avoid the UK being trapped in an indefinite customs union.

The prime minister had hoped to unite her cabinet (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mrs-may-we-have-a-problem-pbd6bk3r6) and overcome the final hurdle in negotiations with the EU by offering to create an “independent mechanism” to oversee how the UK might leave a temporary customs arrangement if Brexit talks collapsed. But this weekend senior EU officials sent shockwaves through No 10 by rejecting May’s plan, sparking fears that negotiations have broken down days before “no-deal” preparations costing billions need to be implemented.

The mechanism was seen by key members of the cabinet, including the attorney-general, Geoffrey Cox, as crucial to preventing the so-called Northern Irish “backstop” being used to force the UK into being a “never-ending rule-taker from Brussels”. A Whitehall source described the plan as the government’s “life-support machine”, adding: “By rejecting the proposal, the EU has just turned off the oxygen.” A senior cabinet minister said: “This is the moment she has to face down Brussels and make it clear to them that they need to compromise, or we will leave without a deal.”

It also emerged that:

• Four remain-leaning ministers are on the brink of resignation after the departure on Friday of Jo Johnson, the transport minister, who accused May of “a failure of British statecraft on a scale unseen since the Suez crisis”...........

• Graham Brady, chairman of the 1922 committee of backbench MPs, was accused of suppressing the fact that he had received enough letters to trigger a vote of no confidence in May..........

Sallyann1234
11th Nov 2018, 08:00
We can see what's happening now.

Boris and his mates promised a wonderful but impossible deal in order to get their referendum result.

Someone had to be blamed for not getting what the EU was never going to give. May is the obvious candidate.

BAengineer
11th Nov 2018, 11:52
We can see what's happening now.

Boris and his mates promised a wonderful but impossible deal in order to get their referendum result.

Someone had to be blamed for not getting what the EU was never going to give. May is the obvious candidate.


Considering that she is in charge and is negotiating with the EU you have someone else in mind?

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Nov 2018, 12:30
Considering that she is in charge and is negotiating with the EU you have someone else in mind?
Yes, lots.

Cameron for calling the utterly stupid referendum in the first place

The BBC for giving a platform to leave lies and not challenging any of them

The remain campaign for running a crap campaign

Corbyn for not doing his job of opposition

You get the idea, you can fill in the rest of the list for yourself.

BAengineer
11th Nov 2018, 12:49
Yes, lots.

Cameron for calling the utterly stupid referendum in the first place

The BBC for giving a platform to leave lies and not challenging any of them

The remain campaign for running a crap campaign

Corbyn for not doing his job of opposition

You get the idea, you can fill in the rest of the list for yourself.


So basically anyone except the the person we pay £150k a year to be charge and do the negotiating. If she wants the Job (and it is voluntary) she takes the responsibility along with the moola.

Andy_S
11th Nov 2018, 12:58
Someone had to be blamed for not getting what the EU was never going to give. May is the obvious candidate.

Regardless of whether you are a leaver or remainer, you have to say that she has done an absolutely diabolical job. It's been said (allegedly) about her that she continually says no until she says yes. She's given way at every step, and they know it. The European Commission are running rings round her. Barnier has apparently boasted that he can negotiate a a deal which - to all intents and purposes - keeps us in the EU, and that's the way it appears to be going. Jo Johnson is right - we're on the verge of becoming a vassal state.

I've said it before - we needed a leader, not a political calculator who just takes the path of least resistance (until she finds that blocked).

Krystal n chips
11th Nov 2018, 13:13
Regardless of whether you are a leaver or remainer, you have to say that she has done an absolutely diabolical job. It's been said (allegedly) about her that she continually says no until she says yes. She's given way at every step, and they know it. The European Commission are running rings round her. Barnier has apparently boasted that he can negotiate a a deal which - to all intents and purposes - keeps us in the EU, and that's the way it appears to be going. Jo Johnson is right - we're on the verge of becoming a vassal state.

I've said it before - we needed a leader, not a political calculator who just takes the path of least resistance (until she finds that blocked).

Your nominees are awaited........

There again,, it's worth remembering why Treeza got the job in the first place....sadly, an audition for her song and dance routines didn't feature as part of the selection process.....which was the rapid departure of "Should I stay or should I go ? " Dave ( resurrection pending ) and the Tories were desperate for a token gesture to maintain the carefully crafted, albeit a complete fallacy, of the "caring " image of the party and somebody who would give the appearance to the voting public of being, well, credible and not too extremist ....Treeza, despite not having any form of Ministerial capability and an extended tenure screwing up the Home Office was the perfect replacement !

And lets not forget the usual political machinations coming into play at some point when a convenient scapegoat is required for public castigation.......enter a potentially outstanding "Mastermind " contender......."your chosen specialist subject is.....UK geography ...Mr Raab "

Sallyann1234
11th Nov 2018, 13:24
Considering that she is in charge and is negotiating with the EU you have someone else in mind?
Nope. She wanted the job and got it, so she will have to take the blame.
However it must be said that the best negotiator in the world could not get a better deal, because there was never one to be obtained.

The real blame of course sits where it always had been - with Boris and his mates who promised a cherry-picking utopia with the best of the EU and the best of the world. Pure delusion.

cavortingcheetah
11th Nov 2018, 14:02
At the very beginning of all of this nonsense, New Zealand offered to second a negotiating team to the UK. The NZ government suggested to the UK that, as the British had no great negotiating experience whereas they, New Zealand, had a great deal of the same, what with trading up and down through the Pacific and western South America and seeing as how New Zealand was a Commonwealth country, they, the British, might want to take advantage of some experience in a field in which they had none.
The Brits, whether due to arrogance, ignorance or just plain bad manners, turned the offer down flat. Britain went on to prove the new Zealander's point in terms quite precise.
The initial negotiating tactic of the UK government was based upon the certainty that the EU could be divided and thus conquered. The EU however, being possessed of canny politicians and good negotiators saw that trick coming along way away and have managed to reverse flip the thing so that it is now the UK that is divided and conquered. Whatever happens, Britain has arrived at an ignominious point in its history. No doubt the French are delighting in the fact that finally, in international history, a country is more humiliated than even France in June 1940.
Boris Johnson is no more to blame for cherry picking for the leavers than is David Cameron for pouring millions of £s of UK tax payers money into remaining. The matter has gone far beyond that and the disgraceful, duplicitous and dictatorial behaviour of Teresa May, directed by her henchman Ollie Robbins, has only succeeded so far because the perceived alternative is a Marxist government.
However, had those who voted to remain accepted the result of the referendum, as they would have done had it gone their way and had they pulled together for the country instead of attempting to thwart the leaving process at every twist and turn then Britain might have got a better Brexit than it's going to get. The cost to Britain of the recalcitrant remainers, a fifth column if ever there were one, is going to be incalculable whichever way this sad story ends for it is inconceivable that Britain will be permitted by the Brussels Junta to rescind Article 50 without paying a vast price to resume its place at the high and holy table, always as a junior and tainted member and certainly with no EU rebate.

Pontius Navigator
11th Nov 2018, 14:09
More still, „oversaturation“ and „displacing the indigenous polpulation“ are theories that the far right love to propagate. Most white indigenous migration in the UK and elsewhere has been “white flight“, leaving an increasing concentration of poorer and less skilled white residents behind. Economic migrants move to the cheapest places to live in places they can find work and support networks. Who wouldn‘t? Naturally, this can in time lead to a situation where the total population of first to third generation migrants outnumbers the ethnicity of people who can trace their indigony over many more
Very much chicken and egg. You can see this in many parts of the World. Apparently in Namibia many holiday homes are owned by Canadians. In Cyprus the Brits tended to settle around Kyrenia. In Spain the same with the British enclaves where English is spoken, shops sell baked beans and cornflakes and a cafe, run by Brits, sells bacon butties. 'Whiter Flight ' is replaced by economic power pricing out locals.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Nov 2018, 14:46
So basically anyone except the the person we pay £150k a year to be charge and do the negotiating.
No no, I wasn't suggesting that May isn't to blame - she clearly is. I was suggesting that she could share it around a bit.

wiggy
11th Nov 2018, 15:18
If we are now looking at who to blame, then just by chance in today’s Observer:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/bad-brexit-will-not-be-as-terrible-as-suez-it-will-be-far-worse

”At best, Mrs May will present a deal that is humiliatingly worse than the terms we currently enjoy as members of the EU. At worst, Britain will be invited to take the nightmare road that leads over a cliff-edge. This wretched choice will be offered by Mrs May not because she is the most hapless negotiator ever to inhabit Number 10; it is because a happy ending to this story was never available.

The problem with Brexit is not Theresa May. The problem with Brexit is Brexit.”

Krystal n chips
11th Nov 2018, 15:18
Very much chicken and egg. You can see this in many parts of the World. Apparently in Namibia many holiday homes are owned by Canadians. In Cyprus the Brits tended to settle around Kyrenia. In Spain the same with the British enclaves where English is spoken, shops sell baked beans and cornflakes and a cafe, run by Brits, sells bacon butties. 'Whiter Flight ' is replaced by economic power pricing out locals.

Unfortunately, you don't have to even leave these gilded shores to see the underlined above......and an honourable mention for the Lake District seemingly omitted from the list below........

Still, it's so dashed essential to have that all important rural post code on the CV ...... and sod the locals !

https://www.independent.co.uk/property/englands-rural-housing-crisis-where-homes-are-more-expensive-than-in-london-9679314.html

Torquetalk
11th Nov 2018, 15:36
Very much chicken and egg. You can see this in many parts of the World. Apparently in Namibia many holiday homes are owned by Canadians. In Cyprus the Brits tended to settle around Kyrenia. In Spain the same with the British enclaves where English is spoken, shops sell baked beans and cornflakes and a cafe, run by Brits, sells bacon butties. 'Whiter Flight ' is replaced by economic power pricing out locals.

Not sure I understand the chicken and egg metaphor. I think you are obfustating the matter by now talking about a completely different form of migration. You said this:

"I think public protest arose later as particular cities became saturated with individual immigrant groups who displaced the indigenous population. Some groups integrated, particularly those displaced from Uganda but other simply took over their area"

Nothing chicken and egg about that. You cite the migrants as being the causal factor in indiginous (why don't you just say white) displacement, which is an essentially anti-immigrant narrative. My point was that there is a lot of evidence that "white flight" is in fact the causal factor - whites not wanting to live in areas settled by migrants of non-white enthnicity.

As to the success of Ugandan migration: I can't remember having met a British person of Ugandan ethnicity who was a doctor, dentist, plumber, pilot (working for a European company), accountant, politician, estate agent, etc. So maybe when you say successfully integrated, you mean caused no trouble and remained largely invisible?

KelvinD
11th Nov 2018, 15:38
The irony I see is that England refused to allow the Jewish peoples into England at that time.
Don't tell that to the 10,000 who arrived prior to the war via the 'Kindertransport'!

Torquetalk
11th Nov 2018, 15:48
Don't tell that to the 10,000 who arrived prior to the war via the 'Kindertransport'!

Do remind us what happened to the desperate parents who also sought sanctuary.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Nov 2018, 16:00
Do remind us what happened to the desperate parents who also sought sanctuary?
Beat me to it.

(Family myth is that we had some distant relatives who survived in Paris by changing their names and pretending not to be Jewish. I've got no evidence about this though, and the people I heard it from are no longer with us. People changing their names doesn't help with genealogical research either. Particular in a family where one Freeman isn't related to another Freeman but is the sibling of a Freidman (and I think there were a couple of other spellings as well).)

Torquetalk
11th Nov 2018, 16:15
Beat me to it.

(Family myth is that we had some distant relatives who survived in Paris by changing their names and pretending not to be Jewish. I've got no evidence about this though, and the people I heard it from are no longer with us. People changing their names doesn't help with genealogical research either. Particular in a family where one Freeman isn't related to another Freeman but is the sibling of a Freidman (and I think there were a couple of other spellings as well).)

Yes, pity the souls who fled into countires that then became occupied. Some incredible family biographies and stories of great courage and fortitude.

To be fair with the regard to emigration, I believe that late in the thirties the German authorities were less concerned with facilitating Jewish emigration and more concerned with the theft of their assets and preparing for their annilation.

Pontius Navigator
11th Nov 2018, 16:21
Torquetalk, indigenous is the correct term. The immigrants in Boston are largely white.

Torquetalk
11th Nov 2018, 16:29
Torquetalk, indigenous is the correct term. The immigrants in Boston are largely white.

Well actually I wasn‘t talking about what may be the sociologically correct term, I was pointing out what you meant by the indigenous population. You meant the white folk. And I think your Boston example may be a little dated.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Nov 2018, 17:21
Yes, pity the souls who fled into countires that then became occupied.
Like Anne Frank. I've certainly met people who thought her story was a story about Dutch people and didn't know she had fled from Germany.

KelvinD
11th Nov 2018, 18:02
Do remind us what happened to the desperate parents who also sought sanctuary.
Why? The original comment stated the English refused to allow Jewish people into UK. Again, don't tell that to the 10,000 etc. Having arrived here without parents did not mean a sudden mass conversion to gentile. And, in the case of those who came via Holland, it seems that in many cases their parents (presumably still in Germany) didn't know about their transport to the UK.

Torquetalk
11th Nov 2018, 19:33
Why? The original comment stated the English refused to allow Jewish people into UK. Again, don't tell that to the 10,000 etc. Having arrived here without parents did not mean a sudden mass conversion to gentile. And, in the case of those who came via Holland, it seems that in many cases their parents (presumably still in Germany) didn't know about their transport to the UK.The Kindertransport was an emergency measure to save the children after the Kristalnacht. By then it was too late to offer asylum to the adults, many of whom had been seeking to get out of Germany but could not meet the immigration criteria of countries where they would be safe (UK and USA). Despite the persecution of Jews being known, no effective international agreement on asylum could be reached.Whilst the Kindertransport was doubtless an important humanitarian act, it was also a reflection of a collective failure to offer persecuted Jews safe haven when they needed it.

Germany hadn't invaded anywhere in 1938, so I imagine that the jews in the Netherlands, both indiginous and asylum seekers, thought themselves safe. People trying to escape post-occupation is something else altogether.

PDR1
11th Nov 2018, 20:44
Don't tell that to the 10,000 who arrived prior to the war via the 'Kindertransport'!

Can't speak for 9,999 of them, but one was my father. He was settled in a minor boarding school in the UK at the age of 8, and when he grew up he was given British citizenship.

PDR.

PDR1
11th Nov 2018, 20:52
Do remind us what happened to the desperate parents who also sought sanctuary.

Again, I can only speak for my own relatives. My father's parents were moved to Theresienstadt. They were lucky, because they were near the bottom of the list for moving to the small fort, so they survived the war and returned to Prague - whereupon they suffered nearly as badly at the hands of the Czechs for many years until some semblance of a rule of law was returned in the early 50s. My father never saw his father again, and he only saw his mother once when she managed to get papers to visit in the mid 60s - she was going to come again but 1968 closed that door.

Well you did ask...

PDR

Torquetalk
11th Nov 2018, 21:31
Well you did ask...

PDR
Thanks PDR. That makes it real and humbling.
TT

scr1
11th Nov 2018, 21:46
My Grandfather escaped from Prague by walking out and then across Poland eventually ending up in the UK. Only he and a second cousin (who was hidden by a priest) survived. We must do more to help those fleeing persecution.

ATNotts
12th Nov 2018, 07:00
My Grandfather escaped from Prague by walking out and then across Poland eventually ending up in the UK. Only he and a second cousin (who was hidden by a priest) survived. We must do more to help those fleeing persecution.

Indeed we should, however when it is suggested there is a section of the population who vociferously rails against the very idea; and in their objections are supported by a big chunk of the UK print media, and worse, HM Government bows to their pressure.

PDR1
12th Nov 2018, 10:46
Thanks PDR. That makes it real and humbling.
TT

Just trying to bring it down to earth with some reality rather than rhetoric. My father's family were Sudeten jews who had already decamped to Prague to escape persecution. His parents handed him to the mission to get him to England where he was placed in a minor boarding school at the age of eight, speaking only German and Czech. He rarely spoke about this time, but one of the comments he did make was that even in 1938 being a german speaker in a community of boys didn't go down well, so he learned English in 3 weeks and lost his accent in 3 months. He also decided to change his name from Hanuš to John. He wasn't religious (none of us are in this family) so when he died ten years ago we held a humanist funeral at which his friends and family spoke about their memories of him. His oldest friends included a few of his fellow refugees, and they spoke of these times. But most of those who knew him after his mid twnties were completely unaware that he WASN'T a 19th-generation Home Counties englishman - they knew my mother was an aussie, but they never knew of his origines because (as I said) he didn't talk about it.

In Prague his extended family consisted of about 30-40 people - assorted grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins etc. After he "escaped" they were all taken to Theresienstadt. The only ones who came were his parents and one uncle. His parents survived because his father had lost a leg in the German Infantry in WW1, having enlisted as a private and been invalided out as a much decorated Captain when he lost his leg. His uncle survived because he had lost an eye at Passchendael. The Nazis were the epitome of German adherence to process - each victim was "scored", getting points for degree of non-jewishness (ege inly one jewish parent got more points than if both were), for past service and heroism for the motherland, for contribution to the state, for lack of medical requirements, for lack of political "unsuitability" etc. Those with the fewest points were at the top of the list, and those with the least were at the bottom. Being visibly wounded in the service of the state, and having both been senior officials in the Czech civil service, fortuitously placed my father and uncle Theo close enough to the bottom of the list that they never quite got to the Small Fort. All of the rest of the family were murdered.

My sister is a journalist (in Australia), and she is currently writing a book on the family story which is due for publication next year. If anyone is interested I'll let them know when it comes out.

PDR

TURIN
12th Nov 2018, 11:47
As to the success of Ugandan migration: I can't remember having met a British person of Ugandan ethnicity who was a doctor, dentist, plumber, pilot (working for a European company), accountant, politician, estate agent, etc. So maybe when you say successfully integrated, you mean caused no trouble and remained largely invisible?

I have worked with several aircraft technicians at LHR that were from Uganda. Is that successful enough?

G-CPTN
12th Nov 2018, 12:36
We had a Ugandan Asian refugee who worked as a test engineer at a vehicle testing ground - a great bloke who integrated completely.

treadigraph
12th Nov 2018, 12:51
I worked with a Ugandan Asian refugee who is a highly respected civil engineer at a very senior level; his son is following in dad's footsteps. Both great blokes.

Torquetalk
12th Nov 2018, 18:40
I have worked with several aircraft technicians at LHR that were from Uganda. Is that successful enough?

Yes, point(s) taken. I must admit, that in thinking of Ugandans, I made the assumption of economic migrants and black, completely forgetting the exodus by Asian Ugandans under Amin.


PDR

An incredible history and generous of you to share it. Please PM me when the book is available. I just ordered Beate Klarfeld’s autobiography, having heard her talking about slapping former German chancellor Keisinger (a former Nazi) across the face in the early 60s.

KelvinD
13th Nov 2018, 15:41
I think I am cracking up! I am sure the BBC just announced the text of a deal agreed between the EU and the UK re Brexit!.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46188790

ORAC
13th Nov 2018, 18:02
The race is now on, will TM be forced out first by her own cabinet/MPs or by losing the vote in the HoC?

Still, means she can have a quiet Christmas at home - wherever that will be....

VP959
13th Nov 2018, 18:04
I have a feeling that this will be a massive document that has taken a long time to prepare and agree, and that those who are determined to put a great deal of time and effort into trying to screw things up knew full well just how complex and comprehensive any withdrawal agreement needed to be, and took advantage of the understandable delay in creating it, and reaching agreement in principle, to pursue their own political agendas.

I wonder what odds the bookies are now giving on us leaving the EU with no agreement, as the doom mongers have been predicting ever since this process began?

ORAC
13th Nov 2018, 18:30
I have a feeling that this will be a massive document Reported as being 600 pages - all the better to hide one subtlety worded clause in a sub-sub-paragraph in an otherwise inoccuous section - and pressure ministers to make a decision in a few minutes with civil servants leaning over their shoulders.

I see the media is reporting that the cabinet is being invited in one by one to see the text, presumably with about 10-15 minutes each to actual read the document....

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Nov 2018, 18:50
all the better to hide one subtlety worded clause in a sub-sub-paragraph in an otherwise inoccuous section
Yes, that's the game - the paid staff hide the dodgy bits near the top of a verso page, say page 218. It's the job of the politicians - it is their day job, after all, the competent ones are good at it - to scan through and spot the dodgy bits without bothering to read the innocuous 95%. Anyone who can't do that at the speed of turning the pages slowly doesn't count as a "competent politician".

Having said which it is, I concede, always useful to have one nerd about the place who obsessively reads every word, just as an insurance policy. I've never volunteered for that job myself.

Private jet
13th Nov 2018, 19:17
all the better to hide one subtlety worded clause in a sub-sub-paragraph in an otherwise inoccuous section -
Isn't that what you do in a lot of your post's? My apologies, maybe I don't appreciate your "cleverness", I'd like to learn from you but you don't educate in a useful way either.

ORAC
13th Nov 2018, 19:24
I'd like to learn from you but you don't educate in a meaningful way either.

https://youtu.be/QzGtBCCRA2I

Private jet
13th Nov 2018, 19:45
https://youtu.be/QzGtBCCRA2I



Don't be silly.

Sallyann1234
13th Nov 2018, 20:16
Interesting that Theresa had to call in her cabinet one at a time this evening to get them on side. Presumably she had to put a different face on it according to their individual opinions.
Tomorrow's full meeting will be featured in several memoirs.

ORAC
13th Nov 2018, 20:39
Don't be silly.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x500/d98004c6cb8c7f53ce02041aee9d1e9c_6bac526731988f9bd0169dfdf2c e74cfe5dcc2f0.jpg

Just a spotter
13th Nov 2018, 21:20
The DUP have been giving voice to their dissatisfaction with the rumored Brexit Withdrawal Deal.

Their leader in Westminster, Nigel Dodds MP has said “If the reports are as we are hearing, then we couldn’t possibly vote for that” and has been threatening the passage of the Finance Bill (which gives effect to the budget, in theory a government that can't pass its finance bill, falls).

All this on the sidelines of the escalation of the Tory civil war.

JAS

Effluent Man
13th Nov 2018, 21:27
Ken Clark sounded very chipper about the deal. I think that might be bad news for any enthusiastic Brexiteer.

Sallyann1234
13th Nov 2018, 22:39
Well Boris hasn't taken long to decide how to vote...
https://youtu.be/W111eM0H5Ws

G0ULI
14th Nov 2018, 01:17
Cliff edge Brexit it is then, as voted for by millions!

The question now, is how long Theresa May will be able to cling to the notion that an equitable deal of any sort can be sorted out of this morass of documents? It is absolutely clear that there is no,common ground between the UK and the EU with regards to a common trade and customs area. It is obvious that the demands from each side are utterly incompatible. This has been evident since the beginning of negotiations.

Remaining in the EU is not an option.
Running a second referendum is not an option.
Accepting the deal as currently presented is unacceptable to those in Parliament that hold the balance of power.

Will May last until the end of next week, let alone Chistmas?
Is Boris about to be forced to sup from the poisoned chalice too?

Stay tuned. At least something interesting is starting to happen!

ORAC
14th Nov 2018, 04:04
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-accused-of-betrayal-as-she-unveils-brexit-deal-ks9frvbwz

Theresa May accused of betrayal as she unveils Brexit deal

”Theresa May will put her future in the hands of senior ministers today as she asks them to sign off a Brexit deal in the face of accusations of betrayal.....

Mrs May’s efforts to secure cabinet backing will be further undermined by a leaked diplomatic note seen by The Times spelling out how the EU intends to force Britain to accept a longer-term alignment with its rules..........

The EU has dropped its demand for Northern Ireland to remain in the bloc’s customs union during this period, which would have meant a border in the Irish Sea (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-and-the-irish-border-jcm02pmz0). However, Mrs May has agreed that the province must remain more closely aligned to EU regulations in some areas than the rest of the UK. In a further concession Mrs May has agreed to “level playing field” measures tying Britain to EU rules in areas such as state aid and environmental and workers’ rights protections during the backstop.

Sabine Weyand, the deputy to Michel Barnier, Europe’s chief negotiator, told European ambassadors that this concession would be used as the basis of the future relationship with the EU. She also said that Britain “would have to swallow a link between access to products and fisheries in future agreements”, in a leaked note of the meeting on Friday. “We should be in the best negotiation position for the future relationship. This requires the customs union as the basis of the future relationship,” Ms Weyand said. “They must align their rules but the EU will retain all the controls. They apply the same rules. UK wants a lot more from future relationship, so EU retains its leverage.”

The briefing underlines fears among Brexiteers that the temporary customs union during the backstop will become the long-term basis for the relationship with the EU, prohibiting new trade deals and forcing the government to adopt all new EU rules and regulations regardless of whether they are in Britain’s interest........

Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said that if the reports about the backstop were true Mrs May’s days were numbered. “The cabinet can’t function, and if the cabinet can’t function then neither can she,” he said.

David Davis, the former Brexit secretary, called on cabinet ministers to resign rather than accept a deal that would leave Britain facing “imprisonment in the customs union”. “Cabinet should stand up, be counted and say no to this capitulation,” he said.....

ORAC
14th Nov 2018, 04:32
Patrick Kidd in The Times:

”.......Iain Duncan Smith was sceptical, however, that there would be cabinet resignations over this. “I never expect anything,” the former Tory leader sighed. He recalled the harsh criticism that Margaret Thatcher had once given to John Whittingdale, a backbench colleague, during the Maastricht debates: “The trouble with you, John, is that your spine does not reach your brain.”........

A little later, on the stairs leading from Central Lobby to the committee corridor, I bumped into Lord Dobbs, creator of House of Cards, who was unaware that this parliament was turning into the plot of one of his novels. Told that Mrs May had summoned her cabinet to Downing Street for one-on-one chats, Lord Dobbs reflected that a previous female PM had tried that on a November night 28 years ago. “It didn’t work out well, as I recall,” he said........

Krystal n chips
14th Nov 2018, 07:20
Well if nothing else, a rare moment of clarity and even more so from the source....

"Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said that if the reports about the backstop were true Mrs May’s days were numbered. “The cabinet can’t function, and if the cabinet can’t function then neither can she,” he said ".......who would have guessed that to be the case !

Anyway, time for Treeza to start perusing the "Sit.Vacs," columns ( apart from those in the Guardian that is ) ......

" A vacancy has arisen for an accomplished sales person with a clearly defined and exemplary track record of target driven results achievement to embark on the next exciting chapter of their career. We require an individual who is motivated to enter a competitive market focussed on local demographics with the intention of repeat sales of snow to Eskimo's. " ........

She would be the perfect candidate !.

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 07:28
Politically, this country is now a God awful mess.

The Conservative party is now at least two, possibly three parties. The government is being propped up by the "No Party" (the DUP) who are so self centred as to be a totally unreliable ally and require regular cheques of £1bn to keep them on side. Then there is the Labour party, which rather than taking the moral high ground, in voting for the good of the country, is after one prize, and one prize only - a general election. Worse they are lead by a person who still can't bring himself to admit he's really better suited to being a member of the European Research Group than a serious party leader - in the same way that he seem unable to admit his true opinions about certain religious groups.

If they all screw this up the public, from whichever segment of the Brexit argument they come, will not forgive the current crop of self centred meddlers who allegedly represent their interests.

What is most disappointing is that all politicians, but not least the European Research Group, were happy to dismiss the draft agreement without having so much as seen the colour of the cover of the document, let alone read the jacket notes. They would have been against anything that resembled the outcome of a negotiation, as their plan would have been to wave two fingers at the Brussels and drop out of the EU, safe in the knowledge that their personal circumstances could enable them to weather whatever the consequences turned out to be. The other 60 million of us should be so lucky.

KelvinD
14th Nov 2018, 07:38
I suppose that must be the end of Radio 4 then! I don't think I can stand what seems to be a 24 hours per day fixation on this Brexit fiasco! Politicians and humans alike are being asked to comment on this alleged agreement on a paper that only a very few have actually seen and read.
And it is high time someone at the BBC realised Nick Robinson, like his oppo Humphreys, is NOT Paxman!
Meanwhile, has Mrs May forgotten whose gang she belongs to? It is the "Conservative and Unionist Party". If some of the rumours today are true, she may well be overseeing the break up of the United Kingdom. Tower, head separation and bonfire should then be the order of the day!

Sallyann1234
14th Nov 2018, 08:02
The reported deal gives no pleasure at all to anyone who has maintained all along that there would never be a satisfactory deal with the EU. It was after all obvious to those having eyes to see.

But nevertheless I very much hope that the proposed unsatisfactory bodge gets passed by Parliament.

It seems to keep us aligned with many of the benefits of being inside the EU. The fact that we will no longer take part in controlling those standards is unfortunate, but we must blame the Brexiteers for giving that privilege away.

Better to be a vassal to the EU than a vassal to the US.

Parapunter
14th Nov 2018, 08:13
Well Boris hasn't taken long to decide how to vote...
https://youtu.be/W111eM0H5Ws

Hmm, Man who spent the last two years insisting we have no sovereignty now insisting we are now giving up sovereignty. Meanwhile, woman who spent the last two years insisting no deal is better than a bad deal now insisting a bad deal is better than no deal.

Welcome to the mother & father of halfway house fudges, rejection in Parliament leading to permanent sclerotic Brexit debate & the accompanying slow decline of the United Kingdom, assuming the lunatics are kept away from the cliff edge, that is.

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 08:15
The reported deal gives no pleasure at all to anyone who has maintained all along that there would never be a satisfactory deal with the EU. It was after all obvious to those having eyes to see.

But nevertheless I very much hope that the proposed unsatisfactory bodge gets passed by Parliament.

It seems to keep us aligned with many of the benefits of being inside the EU. The fact that we will no longer take part in controlling those standards is unfortunate, but we must blame the Brexiteers for giving that privilege away.

Better to be a vassal to the EU than a vassal to the US.

Frankly, as many of us know (or at least what we think we know from the media), what is abundantly clear is that the UK is best off remaining in the EU, and were there ever to be a new referendum, based upon the best deal that HMG could get (which one assumes this must be) there would be a resounding vote in favour of junking Art.50. I struggle to understand how, despite the apparent groundswell of support for a referendum, and recent poll results based on very large (20,000) sample, there is ever going to be another referendum.

As for the choice between US and EU, it's Hobson's choice, but the I'd hate to be even more the USA's poodle than we are now.

beamer
14th Nov 2018, 08:34
Cabinet Resignations.
Parliament votes down deal.
May loses confidence vote.
General Election called.
Corbyn enters #10 as leader on minority government backed up by SNP/Greens/Lib Dems.
Corbyn proves utterly unfit to be PM.
Labour party seeks new leader.
Centre ground socialists emrege from hiding - Umuna, Benn, D Milliband etc.
Umuna becomes PM.
New In/Out referendum called.
Narrow majority to remain in EU.
Brexit cancelled.
Endex.

Sallyann1234
14th Nov 2018, 08:47
Much too late for all that to happen. Labour might get in, but not until after Brexit.
The worst of both worlds.

VP959
14th Nov 2018, 08:49
The big question is really what would happen to the UK if we did try to cancel Brexit somehow?

One thing is absolutely certain; the UK would definitely lose all the hard-won concessions from the EU that it presently enjoys. We may well be forced to adopt the Euro and to become a Schengen state, as the UK would have zero negotiating points when it comes to the terms of the cancellation of our Article 50 letter.

We may well be in a godawful mess, but would we be in a damned sight worse mess if we tried to call off Brexit at the 11th hour? I very strongly suspect we would.

Krystal n chips
14th Nov 2018, 08:49
" Tower, head separation and bonfire should then be the order of the day! "

I suppose muffled oars are now just a shade passé ........so, "water taxi for one please, pick up at Houses of Parliament going to Traitors gate....soon as you can "...would be the more contemporary option...

PDR1
14th Nov 2018, 09:01
The big question is really what would happen to the UK if we did try to cancel Brexit somehow?

One thing is absolutely certain; the UK would definitely lose all the hard-won concessions from the EU that it presently enjoys.

I don't see that as "absolutely certain" - it's one view supportred by some learned cousel. There are other learned counsel who take the view that if the UK were to withdraw its Art.50 invokation then our EU membership would continue exactly as it was before, because we never left. This is one of those things we only discover when we try it.

What IS highly probable is that if we were to actually leave next march and then *rejoin* we could not expect to rejoin on the same terms as we have now, which places greater importance on making sure we really mean it before next march IMHO.

Other views are available.

PDR

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 09:05
The big question is really what would happen to the UK if we did try to cancel Brexit somehow?

One thing is absolutely certain; the UK would definitely lose all the hard-won concessions from the EU that it presently enjoys. We may well be forced to adopt the Euro and to become a Schengen state, as the UK would have zero negotiating points when it comes to the terms of the cancellation of our Article 50 letter.

We may well be in a godawful mess, but would we be in a damned sight worse mess if we tried to call off Brexit at the 11th hour? I very strongly suspect we would.

There's been no suggestion from the Commission or from member states that if we called off Art.50 that would happen, when all said and done, if they can keep the UK in, with it's net contribution, and of course unfettered access to a market of 60m people that would be a preferable outcome for the EU (and I believe, for the UK - though I know not everyone agrees with that standpoint!!).

Where I agree is that if we've left the EU, whether we're in transition or beyond that point, then for the UK to rejoin, the EU would almost certainly play hardball, Euro, Schengen, working time directive, rebate would all be lost and never regained. Given the almost inevitable clamour to rejoin after we've left (another 5-10 years of austerity, low growth and higher unemployment wouldn't wash with the electorate) it it were possible / practical, if might be better to bite the bullet and have that new referendum sooner rather than later - but still, I can't see how there's time for that to happen now, even if the political will were to be there from the top.

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 09:06
I don't see that as "absolutely certain" - it's one view supportred by some learned cousel. There are other learned counsel who take the view that if the UK were to withdraw its Art.50 invokation then our EU membership would continue exactly as it was before, because we never left. This is one of those things we only discover when we try it.

What IS highly probable is that if we were to actually leave next march and then *rejoin* we could not expect to rejoin on the same terms as we have now, which places greater importance on making sure we really mean it before next march IMHO.

Other views are available.

PDR

You beat me to it!!

Parapunter
14th Nov 2018, 09:08
The big question is really what would happen to the UK if we did try to cancel Brexit somehow?

One thing is absolutely certain; the UK would definitely lose all the hard-won concessions from the EU that it presently enjoys. We may well be forced to adopt the Euro and to become a Schengen state, as the UK would have zero negotiating points when it comes to the terms of the cancellation of our Article 50 letter.

We may well be in a godawful mess, but would we be in a damned sight worse mess if we tried to call off Brexit at the 11th hour? I very strongly suspect we would.

None of this is the case. The EU has said repeatedly Art 50 can be annulled & the UK carry on as before with all our opt outs & current favourable terms as the moderating voice keeping a lid, to pick an example at random, the nutty idea of an EU army.

However, as much as I detest the false prospectus that's brought us to this point & the inevitable damage that Brexit will wreak on the UK, a 2nd referendum, people's vote, call it what you want is a difficult prospect. Undermining the first referendum, irrespective of how flawed it was & it appears to have been very manipulated, creates huge problems in political trust & will in my view lead to much more extremism. In the end, you have to deal with how people perceive the world around them & even though it's plainly deleterious to take the path we're on & as painful as it is, this folly has to play out for it to be understood.

And I don't mean that in a condescending manner, fact is most people aren't engaged in the minutiae of politics & won't care to scrutinise the minutes of some bone dry European committee meeting on ad valorem tariffs post Brexit but will hear David Davis spaffing on irrelevantly about cheap BMWs.

Fareastdriver
14th Nov 2018, 09:14
The British people voted for the UK to leave the EU. They did not vote to tag along on a lead at the EU's behest.

Some people cannot get over it and are fighting for the UK to stay in. Of those people a number are politicians who are looking for a Kinnock/Mandy lifestyle after they have been chucked out of Parliament.

ORAC
14th Nov 2018, 09:26
The EU has said repeatedly Art 50 can be annulled & the UK carry on as before

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State of play of Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-2001_en.htm)

Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?

It was the decision of the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of the notification.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2018/596820/IPOL_IDA(2018)596820_EN.pdf

Revocation under Article 50 TEU

Within the EU context, the arguments in favour of revocability of a notification to withdraw from the EU rest primarily on the absence of express wording to the contrary in Article 50 TEU. They also rely on a teleological reading of the Treaty to establish an ‘ever closer union’ There is a further argument that, if the UK changed its mind the notification of the intention to withdraw would no longer satisfy its constitutional requirements under Article 50 (1).

However, the absence of an express provision preventing revocation does not automatically entail that it is indeed possible. Another reading of Article 50 TEU may lead may conclude that there are two options for a withdrawing Member State, which seeks to remain a member: either reapply for membership under Article 49 TEU or request a prolongation of the Article 50 period. Thereby, Article 50 TEU is a complete provision on withdrawal, encapsulating every aspect, which was intended, meaning it is difficult to infer different meanings and interpretations.

A teleological reading does not necessarily mean that the provisions require the CJEU, which would ultimately rule on revocability, to take into account the premise behind the Treaties. As Article 50 TEU is the only clause on withdrawal, it is arguable that is designed to go against the teleological interpretation of the Treaties as a whole, allowing it to fulfil its intended purpose. On the other hand, allowing a Member State to give a notification to only then withdraw it at a later date threatens the creation of a ‘moral hazard’, which would allow Member States to leverage withdrawal from the EU against a measure, which they oppose. This would ultimately threaten the integrity of the EU.

Unilateral Revocation

Apart from the discourse on whether revocation is possible, there is the question of whether a Member State can do so unilaterally in agreement with the remaining Member States. There are arguments, such as those in the ‘Three Knights’ Opinion’, which propose unilateral withdrawal of the notification is indeed possible. Against this, it is argued that the process under Article 50 TEU ceased to be unilateral once notification of the intention to withdraw was made, as it then requires the active involvement of the EU institutions and Member States. If unilateral revocation were possible, it would raise significant legal and political issues, alongside questions as to the legal obligation of sincere cooperation.

Role of the CJEU

Although the CJEU has jurisdiction over the Withdrawal Agreement itself, exercising jurisdiction over a hypothetical act of revocation is complex. This is due to that the notification of revocation is not an EU act, and indeed could even be classed as a political rather than legal act. Although the notification of the intention to withdraw is the beginning of a process, its legal effects are indirect: sending and receiving the letter of notification are not legal acts in themselves. Therefore, it is difficult to determine at which point of the process it can be challenged before the CJEU. However, the question of revocability is ultimately for the CJEU to rule upon, as any alternative acceptance by the Member States alone would constitute a change to the Treaties without following the revision process under Article 48 TEU.

The situation is further complicated if revocation of the notification in made on a unilateral basis by the UK. It may be possible for a Member State or EU institution (under Articles 258 or 259 TFEU) to challenge the revocation on the basis of sincere cooperation under Article 4 (3) TEU, the scope of which is considerable under CJEU jurisprudence. An alternative basis for challenge, and the one which is most often cited, is on the text of Article 50 TEU itself. In the event all EU Member States accepted the revocation, then avenues of judicial control are further limited. The only option would then be for natural or legal persons, without standing before the CJEU, or the European Parliament (if excluded from the process), to challenge the revocation but only after March 2019. This is because ending the withdrawal process before the two-year period under Article 50 TEU would require a legislative act from the European Council, which would then leave it open to challenge under Article 263 TFEU.

It may also be possible for a UK national, or indeed a citizen of any Member State, to challenge the revocation of the notification before their own domestic courts, subject to the domestic standing requirements, which could then request a preliminary ruling on the interpretation of Article 50 TEU from the CJEU under Article 267 TFEU.

VP959
14th Nov 2018, 09:31
European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - State of play of Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-17-2001_en.htm)

Once triggered, can Article 50 be revoked?

It was the decision of the United Kingdom to trigger Article 50. But once triggered, it cannot be unilaterally reversed. Article 50 does not provide for the unilateral withdrawal of the notification.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2018/596820/IPOL_IDA(2018)596820_EN.pdf

Revocation under Article 50 TEU
Within the EU context, the arguments in favour of revocability of a notification to withdraw from the EU rest primarily on the absence of express wording to the contrary in Article 50 TEU. They also rely on a teleological reading of the Treaty to establish an ‘ever closer union’ There is a further argument that, if the UK changed its mind the notification of the intention to withdraw would no longer satisfy its constitutional requirements under Article 50 (1).
However, the absence of an express provision preventing revocation does not automatically entail that it is indeed possible. Another reading of Article 50 TEU may lead may conclude that there are two options for a withdrawing Member State, which seeks to remain a member: either reapply for membership under Article 49 TEU or request a prolongation of the Article 50 period. Thereby, Article 50 TEU is a complete provision on withdrawal, encapsulating every aspect, which was intended, meaning it is difficult to infer different meanings and interpretations.
A teleological reading does not necessarily mean that the provisions require the CJEU, which would ultimately rule on revocability, to take into account the premise behind the Treaties. As Article 50 TEU is the only clause on withdrawal, it is arguable that is designed to go against the teleological interpretation of the Treaties as a whole, allowing it to fulfil its intended purpose. On the other hand, allowing a Member State to give a notification to only then withdraw it at a later date threatens the creation of a ‘moral hazard’, which would allow Member States to leverage withdrawal from the EU against a measure, which they oppose. This would ultimately threaten the integrity of the EU.
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Policy Department for Citizens' Rights and Constitutional Affairs
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Unilateral Revocation
Apart from the discourse on whether revocation is possible, there is the question of whether a Member State can do so unilaterally in agreement with the remaining Member States. There are arguments, such as those in the ‘Three Knights’ Opinion’, which propose unilateral withdrawal of the notification is indeed possible. Against this, it is argued that the process under Article 50 TEU ceased to be unilateral once notification of the intention to withdraw was made, as it then requires the active involvement of the EU institutions and Member States. If unilateral revocation were possible, it would raise significant legal and political issues, alongside questions as to the legal obligation of sincere cooperation.
Role of the CJEU
Although the CJEU has jurisdiction over the Withdrawal Agreement itself, exercising jurisdiction over a hypothetical act of revocation is complex. This is due to that the notification of revocation is not an EU act, and indeed could even be classed as a political rather than legal act. Although the notification of the intention to withdraw is the beginning of a process, its legal effects are indirect: sending and receiving the letter of notification are not legal acts in themselves. Therefore, it is difficult to determine at which point of the process it can be challenged before the CJEU. However, the question of revocability is ultimately for the CJEU to rule upon, as any alternative acceptance by the Member States alone would constitute a change to the Treaties without following the revision process under Article 48 TEU.
The situation is further complicated if revocation of the notification in made on a unilateral basis by the UK. It may be possible for a Member State or EU institution (under Articles 258 or 259 TFEU) to challenge the revocation on the basis of sincere cooperation under Article 4 (3) TEU, the scope of which is considerable under CJEU jurisprudence. An alternative basis for challenge, and the one which is most often cited, is on the text of Article 50 TEU itself. In the event all EU Member States accepted the revocation, then avenues of judicial control are further limited. The only option would then be for natural or legal persons, without standing before the CJEU, or the European Parliament (if excluded from the process), to challenge the revocation but only after March 2019. This is because ending the withdrawal process before the two-year period under Article 50 TEU would require a legislative act from the European Council, which would then leave it open to challenge under Article 263 TFEU.
It may also be possible for a UK national, or indeed a citizen of any Member State, to challenge the revocation of the notification before their own domestic courts, subject to the domestic standing requirements, which could then request a preliminary ruling on the interpretation of Article 50 TEU from the CJEU under Article 267 TFEU.


That was exactly my understanding. For our Article 50 notification to leave to be revoked, then all member states would have to agree at the end of the notice period to let us stay; we cannot just revoke it ourselves.

What are the chances of the 27 other member states all agreeing that we can stay in the EU under our present terms and conditions?

In my view, near-zero, as at the very least the EU would want to send a very strong message to one or two other members states that pulling the same sort of stunt will cost them dearly.

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 09:33
ORAC

You keep trotting this out, but the person who was involved in drafting Art.50 believes the opposite, and moreover, if 27 EU States were to agree to such a request from the UK, then there's no reason why it could not be revoked. it is in the best interests of the EU (financially and politically) for the UK to remain in the EU.

Since Art.50 has never previously been invoked, let alone retracted I would suggest that anything is possible. But in the time frame of 5 months?? I doubt it.

Sallyann1234
14th Nov 2018, 10:05
This argument about whether or not Art.50 can be cancelled misses one significant point.

Now that preparations have been made by both sides for an unsatisfactory exit next March, it would be a simple matter for Barnier to stand in front of a camera and say something like:
"We understand that our friends in Britain are having second thoughts. Please have your second referendum and then come and talk to us about what might be done to resolve this problem that is so bad for both of us."

He hasn't done so. I think we can take it that they are actually glad to be finally rid of their reluctant, awkward member and its troublesome vetos.

Effluent Man
14th Nov 2018, 10:21
My view is that Theresa needs to go back to Brussels in sackcloth and ashes mode and say simply "please won't you let me stay, I'll do all the washin.."

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 10:30
This argument about whether or not Art.50 can be cancelled misses one significant point.

Now that preparations have been made by both sides for an unsatisfactory exit next March, it would be a simple matter for Barnier to stand in front of a camera and say something like:
"We understand that our friends in Britain are having second thoughts. Please have your second referendum and then come and talk to us about what might be done to resolve this problem that is so bad for both of us."

He hasn't done so. I think we can take it that they are actually glad to be finally rid of their reluctant, awkward member and its troublesome vetos.

But on the other hand Both Juncker and Tusk have said consistently that the door is open for the UK to change it's mind and walk back in. At the end of the day Barnier is not all powerful, he takes his instructions from the European Council.

If I were the EU, if the objectives are to get shot of the leader of the awkward squad, and send a clear message to others that deciding to leave has serious consequences I'd let us go. But it's more complicated than that, given the trade and revenue implications. Money talks.

Effluent Man
14th Nov 2018, 11:06
The last ten opinion polls have shown an average 1.2% lead for The Tories. Given that this represents a swing of just under 3% to Labour there is no reason to think that Corbyn might gain a majority. In fact it s much more likely that both parties might end up in the 270-280 range. Corbyn could of course do a deal with the SNP but I very much doubt the price for that would be one he could afford.

Sallyann1234
14th Nov 2018, 11:12
But on the other hand Both Juncker and Tusk have said consistently that the door is open for the UK to change it's mind and walk back in. At the end of the day Barnier is not all powerful, he takes his instructions from the European Council.

But that has been questioned, and hasn't got through to the UK voter.
A direct invitation to think again would have a significant effect (on both sides in the UK!).

But realistically it's too late now for a change of mind. We either leave with no deal or a very unsatisfactory one.

ORAC
14th Nov 2018, 11:34
George Osborne, now editor of the Evening Standard, and infamous for saying that he would not rest until Theresa May was “chopped up in bags in my freezer”, decided to stick the knife in today - cover of today’s first edition, published just before PM’s Question Time in the HoC...

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/840x846/dr9a2b1wwaautmv_e1542195234937_d705040292315050446812691f24e 8f93fe0b0f2.jpg

BAengineer
14th Nov 2018, 12:06
None of this is the case. The EU has said repeatedly Art 50 can be annulled & the UK carry on as before with all our opt outs & current favourable terms as the moderating voice keeping a lid, to pick an example at random, the nutty idea of an EU army.



Sorry but that is not accurate.BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Union’s budget chief Guenther Oettinger said on Friday Britain would lose its rebate even in the “pleasant but improbable” event of it staying in the bloc.

On March 29, Britain is due to become the first country to ever leave the EU. It expects a status-quo transition until the end of 2020 during which it would continue paying contributions to the bloc and follow its rules.

It would in exchange keep access to the bloc’s single market and customs union but no longer have a say in decision-making that would be done by the other 27 states staying in the EU.

After Brexit, the EU wants to wind down in stages all the rebates, including those that the Netherlands or Denmark enjoy. The bloc’s executive European Commission has proposed to have none in the next common budget for 2021-2024.

“I think that even for the pleasant but improbable case that the British wish to remain... then in my budgetary framework I would stick to the phased ending of rebates. The rebates, in a family of 27, are no longer appropriate.”

TURIN
14th Nov 2018, 12:06
In the end, you have to deal with how people perceive the world around them & even though it's plainly deleterious to take the path we're on & as painful as it is, this folly has to play out for it to be understood.

This is also the conclusion I have, sadly, come to. The extremists on both sides of the argument will never be satisfied until it has ben proven. My fear (opinion) is that we will end up with "no deal" and this country will fall into the biggest depression it's ever seen. My hope is that I am wrong and Rees-Mogg etc is spot on and this country will become a much stronger and wealthier nation than any of us could dream of.

If we have another referendum and it goes the other way, the Brexit army will rise again and demand another referendum ad-infinitum.

I speak as somone who voted to remain.

PS Is gold still a good bet to stash my dwindling pension pot? Asking for a friend.

roving
14th Nov 2018, 12:08
Geo Osborne is a silly boy who caused a great deal of harm by inflicting austerity plus on large swathes of the UK. Those who mutter about defence, education and healthcare cuts have him to thank.

Parapunter
14th Nov 2018, 12:14
he should have joined the Lib Dems. It would have raised theirs & the Tories IQ's.

KelvinD
14th Nov 2018, 13:05
It was a good example of political grandstanding to hear Peter Bone proclaiming in parliament that to accept this deal of which nobody knows would be "denying the electorate the Brexit they voted for". I remember the details of that referendum and it merely asked us to vote on whether the UK should leave the EU or to remain within it. There were no conditions, clauses or qualifications etc. It was a straightforward "Leave/Stay".

Hussar 54
14th Nov 2018, 13:15
But on the other hand Both Juncker and Tusk have said consistently that the door is open for the UK to change it's mind and walk back in. At the end of the day Barnier is not all powerful, he takes his instructions from the European Council.

If I were the EU, if the objectives are to get shot of the leader of the awkward squad, and send a clear message to others that deciding to leave has serious consequences I'd let us go. But it's more complicated than that, given the trade and revenue implications. Money talks.


Why would the EU want the UK back as a member ?

As ATN points out, I think the the clue is that the answer begins with m and ends with y....

So if the UK is ready to accept that its role withing the EU is simply to bankroll the EU, then just cancel BREXIT and start writing the cheques.

Can't really think of any other reason the EU wants the UK to stay unless someone else on here can.

ATNotts
14th Nov 2018, 13:20
It was a good example of political grandstanding to hear Peter Bone proclaiming in parliament that to accept this deal of which nobody knows would be "denying the electorate the Brexit they voted for". I remember the details of that referendum and it merely asked us to vote on whether the UK should leave the EU or to remain within it. There were no conditions, clauses or qualifications etc. It was a straightforward "Leave/Stay".

I expect little more from Peter Bone, or his partner in crime Andrew Bridgen - both extremists, both probably quite well healed enough to not have to worry about any negative consequences of a no deal Brexit, pretty much like most of the extreme Brexiteers in the Conservative party.

ORAC
14th Nov 2018, 13:28
To keep at least arms length regulatory control of the City.

to keep one of the second major nuclear armed power inside the EU as they try and form a more centralised EU military force and capability.

To maintain an external commercial firewall around one of their major markets to keep growing competitors out.

To maintain a close integrated link with their major intelligence source on terrorist activity - and one with close links to US sources.

And, though many nation’s will not officially admit it, as a balance against a Franco-Germany EU hegemony.

Parapunter
14th Nov 2018, 14:50
Sorry but that is not accurate.


Apology accepted & it is accurate depending on who in the EU you wish to quote.

BAengineer
14th Nov 2018, 16:01
Apology accepted & it is accurate depending on who in the EU you wish to quote.

Well as Günther Oettinger is European Commissioner for Budget and Human Resources, I would suspect that he has a rather better grip on the facts of the EU budget than most others.

Parapunter
14th Nov 2018, 17:37
Fair enough, As sheer irrelevancies go, have this one for free.

Hussar 54
14th Nov 2018, 18:10
To keep at least arms length regulatory control of the City.

to keep one of the second major nuclear armed power inside the EU as they try and form a more centralised EU military force and capability.

To maintain an external commercial firewall around one of their major markets to keep growing competitors out.

To maintain a close integrated link with their major intelligence source on terrorist activity - and one with close links to US sources.

And, though many nation’s will not officially admit it, as a balance against a Franco-Germany EU hegemony.


Put like that, maybe it's the EU who should be writing cheques to the UK.

ORAC
14th Nov 2018, 18:11
TCabinet meeting still going in after 5 hours. 10 Ten has announced the Planned press conference afterwards has been cancelled and the PM will instead make a short statement.

Media reporting that the Brexiteer MPs have been handing in their letters of no confidence in TM and that a vote of no confidence will be held tomorrow.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/14/theresa-may-facing-vote-of-no-confidence-tomorrow-8140321/

goofer3
14th Nov 2018, 18:24
Loved the remark by one of the hacks out side No.10 as the Ministers were going in, "Are they twisting your arm or pulling your leg?"

evansb
14th Nov 2018, 18:47
Off the top of his head, the reply was a "knee jerk reaction" as he "shot from the hip".