Speed limit warning in modern jets - BB

[Global Aviator]

Reading BB’s Aviation column -

“Modern civilian jet aircraft have a speed limit warning reduction below about 8000 feet from the usual descent-indicated speed of about 330 knots to about 270 knots”.

Is that just a poorly written statement or am I to many whiskeys in?

Ok the bus I drive isn’t overly modern but there certainly ain’t no limit warning, drive the beast on the barbers pole all the way down if ya like (maybe tea and biccies after thou).

What about the ole 250 knots below 10 anyway?

Yes a rambling post, but just curious on thoughts.

Ok time for another blue label.

[RENURPP]

The 717 will provide a message (warning) “SPEED LIMIT EXCEEDED” on the EAD if you leave the standard 250/10000 (tel:250/10000) on the descent profile and you exceeds that speed.
of course you can do what ever speed you elect/approved (up to 340) to do if you amend the descent page.

[OK4Wire]

I thought the same as you Global. Some fairly arbitrary numbers there.

[Keg]

I recall many moons ago being told that Speedbird had a ‘bird speed’ (irony I know) of about 307 knots below 10K on the 767. I’ve never seen it written in a manual either before or since that time.

[rudestuff]

313kts below 8000 for birds on the 75.

[pinkpanther1]

Q400 Barbers Pole reduces from 282 to 245 through 8500, speed is limited due to windshield strength in event of a birdstrike. Can't speak for other types but that rings true in the dash.

[Capn Bloggs]

Is that just a poorly written statement or am I to many whiskeys in?
The former.

What about the ole 250 knots below 10 anyway?
ATC/Airspace (or whatever is controlling the limit today) only.

The 717 will provide a message “SPEED LIMIT EXCEEDED” on the EAD if you leave the standard 250/10000 (tel:250/10000) on the descent profile and you exceeds that speed.
Isn't that so the yanks don't get fined for going too fast in the traffic?? Nothing to do with flappers.

[jetlikespeeds]

Q400 Barbers Pole reduces from 282 to 235 through 8500, speed is limited due to windshield strength in event of a birdstrike. Can't speak for other types but that rings true in the dash.

That’s taking the saying jet like speeds a little far.

[Weapons Grade]

Didn't that fine example of British engineering, the BA46, have some strange speed limit around 8000ft - I think it was 230KIAS. This was due in part due to the resultant damage caused by a bird strike on the windscreen pillar, and not specifically the windscreens. Long time ago and similar to dating a complete nutter - a forgettable experience.

As for Mr Bailey's article, may I suggest several stiff whiskeys to make the incoherent somewhat coherent (like putting lipstick on a pig; it is still a pig).

[hawkerxp]

The 250 below 10 is an ATC restriction not a physical aircraft restriction.

The change at 8000' is for bird strikes which varies in aircraft, I think the Falcon 900 is at about 320 Knots so if you get a speed waiver... you're coming in hot.

[Capn Bloggs]

Didn't that fine example of British engineering, the BA46, have some strange speed limit around 8000ft - I think it was 230KIAS.
250KIAS. Nothing wrong with the gas chamber... Good fun at the time.

[Vag277]

Pay attention folk. Speed limit below 10,000ft is 250kts in C,D, E & G and 200kts below 2500ft in D within 4nm of class D aerodrome. AIP ENR 1.4-8 & 9

[LeadSled]

Folks,
From memory ( so please don't shoot me down if you think otherwise) but old BCAR certification standards had the Imperial Standard Bird only flying to 8000', the American Golden Eagle could fly to 10,000 ---- and old habits die hard.
Trouble is, birds don't know their Limitations.
Tootle pip!!

[Mach E Avelli]

Indeed the Imperial Bird only flew to 8000 ft. Whether QFE, QNH or QNE was not specified. Which meant that there was no speed limit over the Andes. A classic example of aviation's many arbitrary limits.

[Sparrows.]

Pay attention folk. Speed limit below 10,000ft is 250kts in C,D, E & G and 200kts below 2500ft in D within 4nm of class D aerodrome. AIP ENR 1.4-8 & 9

However normally without asking the class D tower will cancel that. And I’ve never seen them refuse a request for cancel speed

[Lapon]

Pay attention folk. Speed limit below 10,000ft is 250kts in C,D, E & G and 200kts below 2500ft in D within 4nm of class D aerodrome. AIP ENR 1.4-8 & 9

Unless your IFR under the latest changes, in which case 250kts in C no longer applies (unless there is an aerodrome specific limitation)

[Capt Fathom]

Pay attention folk. Speed limit below 10,000ft is 250kts in C,D, E & G and 200kts below 2500ft in D within 4nm of class D aerodrome. AIP ENR 1.4-8 & 9
Is that relevant to the original posters question!?

[Australopithecus]

Regarding birds: In North America it isn't uncommon to see 9-10kg geese at 10,000’, and there are other species that'll get to 14,000. See Hudson river ditching for the performance enhancing effects of geese. In ‘81 a lear pilot got decapitated by a duck at Cincinnati at 3,800’ on departure

The Airbus I fly displays a speed exceedance message like (apparently) the 717. I am fairly sanguine about the prospect of encountering a large migratory waterfowl in Australia at altitude. I do so like flying fast below ten though, because it can save several precious seconds on each arrival. So I can then wait longer for ground transport.

[safelife]

We just had a bird strike at 11000ft with 280kt IAS doing extensive damage. Palma de Mallorca.

[LeadSled]

We just had a bird strike at 11000ft with 280kt IAS doing extensive damage. Palma de Mallorca.

Folks,
One of the best I remember, from years ago, was a snake strike.

Ansett or TAA, B727 or 737, don't remember, but the radome was all smashed up, and the remains of a snake was found against the fwd pressure bulkhead, it was assumed an eagle had dropped it when it evaded the aircraft.

There have also been recorded a number of high altitude fish strikes, attributed to a thunderstorm tornado lifting them out of the water and carrying them to great height. In one case, it was conjectured that the fish was high enough for long enough to be frozen, thus doing much more damage than its estimated size would suggest.

There is also a very famous case of a condor (I think) coming through the windscreen of a 727 over the Andes, something like FL 290 (??) the F/O was faced with a dead captain, blood and guts everywhere, and an explosive decompression with a very high LSA. He got everybody on the ground without further damage. Quite an effort.

Tootle pip!!

[Tankengine]

At least Geoffrey has the excuse he isn’t a pilot. ;)

[bcgallacher]

Some years back I had to do a damage inspection after a report of a bird strike on a 727 at 23000 ft over the Persian Gulf. We found feathers trapped in a lap joint at the bottom of the radome - looked like from a large raptor. Have seen some horrendous damage to engines by bird strikes - the worst being on a JT 9 that took 7 geese in the fan.

[Australopithecus]

I have some photos here of a bat penetrating an A330 flap, but they may be too confronting. I had two bird strikes on one DHC-8 flight...the second one an owl that caused the loss of the wing/body fairing. It made a very disconcerting noise when it hit. (150 kts or so on approach)

[Ascend Charlie]

One of the best I remember, from years ago, was a snake strike.

Apparently the Controller did say "Caution, snake turbulence."

[LeadSled]

Apparently the Controller did say "Caution, snake turbulence."

Good one.

Tootle pip!!

[StudentInDebt]

I recall many moons ago being told that Speedbird had a ‘bird speed’ (irony I know) of about 307 knots below 10K on the 767. I’ve never seen it written in a manual either before or since that time. Think the restriction of 313kts below 8000ft was also a limitation in another UK operator of the 757/767. It was/is contained in the limitations section in BA even after the 757 was retired so maybe it was a CAA airworthiness restriction, there is a lower Mmo limit for G-reg 767s as well (0.84).

[LeadSled]

Think the restriction of 313kts below 8000ft was also a limitation in another UK operator of the 757/767. It was/is contained in the limitations section in BA even after the 757 was retired so maybe it was a CAA airworthiness restriction, there is a lower Mmo limit for G-reg 767s as well (0.84).



Studentetc,
Like I said previously, the Imperial Standard Bird is a different ornithological ball of feathers to the SAE Bald Eagle.
Or, put another way, the old ARB and CAA used to file their own flightplan.
With Brexit, will it all happen again?
Hence local certification limitations than can vary markedly from the original state of certification ---- The Queen's Own Chairborne Aviation Regiment have to justify their not inconsiderable salaries.
Tootle pip!!

[StudentInDebt]

Leadsled - indeed, Vvery hazy memory of the Mmo difference being something to do with using a different standard for Vd or Vc under BCARs......zzzzzzz