".......COS99 RA65 discussions"

[Xwindldg]

Huh???!! So this is being discussed and bargained now is it (according to latest letter)? Sorry boys and girls, you had your chance to sign over years ago and you didn't. Every Cos08 member will vote no for this one.

[Xwindldg]

Everyone who gets HKPA keep in mind the COS99ers are on full housing, have received years of bypass pay and now will want to stay on for RA65 and delay your upgrade even more. On top of that they will kill any possible chance of you getting a base. VOTE NO TO THIS!!!

[Near Miss]

Xwindldg, your ignorance seems to know no bounds. Not every pilot on COS99 receives ARAPA. Likewise not every pilot on COS08 is on HKPA.

[Samsonite]

Xwindldg,
Wow!!! So you obviously joined up as HKPA and haven't realized that not everyone who is on Cos99 is not on ARAPA, how long have you been here? Now you are trying to divide and conquer our crew so you can get more!!! You are playing right into the companies hand you had better realize that you are no longer the cheapest crew at CX, COS18 is and wait till they try to trash the deal you joined to better theirs. what goes around comes around!!
People please remembe,r no matter what deal you joined on we are ALL under attack and the best defence is for us ALL to stick together!!!!

[reazasassain]

I for one was not willing to sign over to COS 08. Why should I have to sign over to an inferior contract?

Just wait until the COS 18 chaps start crying foul when someone on COS 08 returns off a base and stays on their original contract. Heaven forbid they be forced to cos 18.

[Xwindldg]

All 99 guys had a chance to sign over to 08. You willingly took the money now and stayed on RA55. If you now stay until RA65 you will delay everyone below you. Can't have it all!

[Xwindldg]

The whole "ohh let's stay united" is bs. So it's ok for you to now delay us even more, on top of the last few years? Love this united movement that only seems to benefit a tiny group!

[eggraid]

What reazasassain said.

Xwindlndg you need a history lesson.

Why would you sign an inferior contract? For the "priveledge" of working an extra 10 years it would have cost FOs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Something anyone in the left seat even for a day at the time got absolutely free? It's not right and the majority of COS99 FOs and some captains did not sign based on principle and what most countries deem LAW(age discrimination in first world countries), not to mention loss of income.

Based officers in the USA were compensated for lost bypass pay because they were forced onto an inferior contract which, in the states, is against the law. Details were not published because of a gag clause. UK and NZ won their age discrimination cases, settlements were paid, but again no details because of a gag clause. Tells you something about how far behind HK is with labor law.

The point is, the way the company went about it was just wrong and we could'nt fight it because in Hong Kong we have weak labour laws. Some got an improvement for no cost. Others had to pay for the improvement. I don't see how that is not discrimination??

If the AOA is infact discussing age retirement 65 then they are trying to right a wrong for those members who were affected.

I fault no one for signing COS08. It worked for some people and some people it didn't.

Xwindlndg either you weren't here in 08 or you signed over. If you signed over I get it, but you should be rooting for all your colleagues to get what they are owed regardless.

If you were'nt here in 08 and you are concerned your upgrade will be delayed because a group ahead of you is awarded their legal right to work to 65, I also get it, but please be honest. When you signed did you even know some had to retire at 55? If so did you calculate your upgrade time based on how many would leave at 55? Would you have signed anyway? Anyone that leaves before 65 is simply a bonus to any junior officer because legally you can work to 65. If this were a first world country the contract your colleagues are on would be irrelevant.

Big question is....the way this company is headed, will people want to stay until 65? Very doubtful all would if they could. Even guys on the new "A" scale aren't staying to 65. I don't see that trend changing.

​​​​​

[Xwindldg]

All SOs/FOs should write to the AOA and tell them they don't want this negotiated. It would be the same as getting a paycut for all junior crew. Upgrades will be delayed AT LEAST 2 years.

[main_dog]

Xwindldg, I can see you were not here in ‘08: if you had been, you would know that age 65 reduces time to command :}

[eggraid]

Ya, but Xwindlndg by your logic you can make up for that lost time and money because you get to work to 65.

Shoe meet other foot.

[Xwindldg]

eggraid

you can bang on about age discrimination all you want but everyone knew the RA in their contract when they signed.

It doesn't matter what you or I say anyway, all junior guys will definitely push back against this because IT WILL BE A PAYCUT.

Forget any improvements in the TA, you would have to factor in a big delay in upgrade too.

[eggraid]

What can I say? You are right. What is right or wrong no longer has relevance at this company. I for one won't be here past 55 even if the age retirement goes to 90.

[Xwindldg]

Eggraid

Everyone has become an ace wannabe lawyer in the AOA nowadays it seems.

What is right or wrong does matter. What would be wrong would be you getting bypass pay, many years of full housing and now taking money from much poorer junior crew because you changed your mind about if you should have signed over.

[eggraid]

I almost forgot why I never post on pprune(pointless)

Thanks for reminding me Xwind.

[Xwindldg]

Eggraid:

yes it is pointless for a brilliant intellectual like yourself

[lessonlearnt]

Its easy actually Xwindldg - if any HKPA pilot (non command) is wanting his career in CX.

Vote NO to this contract that is coming out.
Yes we will not earn a few dollars - but CC/TB will be in force.
Then we can try put a stop to extending our command.
Proper rostering practices etc

Maybe we can get a new GC and leader in to actually try get something worth looking at.

This is the time pilots should come together and not let a few thousand dollar cloud your long term judgement. Lets shove this Sh1t back into the bullies face.

[Xwindldg]

Lessonlearnt:

"a few thousand dollars"... can I have some of what you're smoking?

An SO would easily be delayed 2 years more if this happened. Over a career that is huge! Captains will stay on average another 6 or so years, DEFO is in full swing, plus you'd now be more likely screwed out of a base if they ever happen again.

No way the company would go for it anyway because they want expensive guys gone. If it comes to a vote I can't imagine the group who is a majority voting for a major paycut either.

[Some How I'm Tired]

“Everyone who gets HKPA keep in mind the COS99ers are on full housing, have received years of bypass pay..."

Here you are banging on about how everyone should abide by their contract and leave at 55. I for one can’t wait to go at 55.

How about you stop whinging about not getting housing, bypass pay etc. YOU also chose to join on YOUR contract. So I don’t ever want to hear you whinging about HKPA raises ever again - it was never in YOUR contract that it would ever increase. Same with payment of bypass pay!

Oh that’s right, it’s only ok for Xwindldg to get an improvement to his contract, not for anyone else.

[Kid Dynamite]

Hey fellow crew.... WE are in a fight for our careers!!

WE are facing a nasty intimidating huge bully!

The only way to defeat a bully is to stand toe to toe and if need be, punch them in the face.

Sure the bully might be able to punch you first and knock you down....

But it’s not so easy when there are 3000+ brothers and sisters standing right behind you having your back UNITED IN THE CAUSE..

Time to grow up!

[rsb]

Quite frankly if you didn’t sign over to 08 then you have no right to now. Go find another a job. It’s called risk assessment and You f$$ked up if you haven’t sorted your finances out to retire at 55. Tough.

[Air Profit]

Quite frankly if you didn’t sign over to 08 then you have no right to now. Go find another a job. It’s called risk assessment and You f$$ked up if you haven’t sorted your finances out to retire at 55. Tough.

Wrong mate. CX tried to coerce pilots into continuing to 65 on degraded conditions. Some of our members had enough fortitude to resist that and simply say "no". Regardless, they are still entitled to work to 65, as to suggest otherwise is discriminatory, as at other companies they would not have been forced to effectively pay for their own normal retirement. age. The age IS 65, and they are entitled to that as the rest of us are. If they had all signed over back in 08, they would have all still been ahead of you for upgrade, so no loss. Stop trying to divide the pilots...it's the company that has been doing their best to accomplish that. We shouldn't be helping them.

[Bangaluru]

Completely agree with rsb and xwindldg. The company was clear about what was on offer in 08. IF, and it's a big if, the company allow this THEY will have gone back on their word. I understand that going back on their word is quite normal. But in this case it's in their interest to let COS99 pilots go at 55.

[Air Profit]

I'll say it again, what the company was "clear about" was also discriminatory. Therefore, those who chose to not capitulate now have the law of discrimination on their side. The company's "terms" were illegal, and therefore those who were discriminated against have the right to have that overturned. Btw, I am on COS 08, I just don't like to see CX coercing pilots into signing for inferior conditions. That should interest ALL pilots at this pathetic airline.

[Sea Eggs]

Leaving CX at 55 doesn't mean you are not employable. There are plenty of options... good options, too!

[SloppyJoe]

The only way guys are going past 55 who didn't sign 08, is on COS18. Honestly I don't think this will delay commands for guys much. It is just helping to disarm the pilot body. CX wants some Captains on cos18 as this is the flex in the system. They will crew the airline so that they do the min hours every month, get paid way less than anyone else, and have enough CNs so that those on 99/08 are at 84hrs every month. If the **** hits the fan again with number they just work the 18 guys harder. Cos 18 disarms the rest of us, they are going to over crew the airline but we (99/08 guys) will always be at 84 hours.

Anyone who goes across to cos18 is just reducing the little strength this union has.

[Fly747]

Correct Joe, if they actually manage to recruit anyone on 18 then they will use our OT to pay them for minimum hours. They will in effect be free pilots.

[cxorcist]

The only way CoS18 guys work substantially less is if CX shrinks the airline. This seems to be exactly what they intend to do... Reduce airframes until the pilot numbers are correct. Sure, they’ll take all the 777X and A350s, but they’ll park as many 77Ws and A330s as required until the numbers work out. Same at KA with NEOs, etc. The rest of the market goes to the competition... Well done Swires, y’all are geniuses!!! Ever heard of cutting off your nose to spite your face?

[mngmt mole]

Effectively, CX is barely any larger an airline than it was three years ago. Sit and ponder that for a bit when you are planning your career progression. CX is dead, and it's only the stubborn delusion of an ever smaller and smaller percentage of the pilot group who don't realise it. Eventually, every one of us will understand that their best career hopes are long in the rear-view mirror. Get out now, while airlines are hiring and the economy is relatively good. All too soon both those facts will change, and you and your families will be trapped in a very unhappy place, still working for an employer who doesn't respect you, value you or care one whit about you or your family. You will be forced into a COS18 situation and your career will effectively be over. If you doubt about any of that, well....time will tell won't it?

[missingblade]

Anyone who joined this place on the past few years Is screwed.

You're screwed for career progression.
You're screwed for quality of life.
You're screwed for career earnings.

You're screwed BECAUSE this airline is not growing.
You're screwed BECAUSE management is incompetent.
You're screwed BECAUSE Hong Kong is in a downward spiral.
You're screwed BECAUSE you chose to join.

You're NOT screwed because a few hundred guys ahead of you refused to be bullied into an inferior contract to the one they joined on.

Get over yourselves and identify the real enemy.

[canthelpit]

I know a lot of people at CX KA and other airlines that are all very happy and intend on staying for many years.

COS18 is terrible yes, but HK is not the hell that everyone is making out.

Im happy here and I have a life outside work, maybe get off PPRUNE and spend time with you families.

[Apple Tree Yard]

hmmm, let's look at the two most recent posts, and consider which one more represents reality. Not too much difficulty in figuring that one out is there?

[lessonlearnt]

Wake upend smell the roses canthelpit.....you clearly one of these pilots that had nothing before you came here. Or came from a 3rd world country. HK is a over crowded sh1t pool. Air quality is poor. Rental is highest in the world.(but stay in you DB bubble with your wife not working) if this makes you feel manly, Chinese is taking over, CX is cutting everything from under your nose.
But you probably been here 7 years or so - still gaining your 2000 hours, but RQ on a wide body....ha ha ha its laughable.

CX has absolutely no experience pilots any more. All JFO's and FO's I fly with think they know everything but come up with excuses after every approach/landing because the are not confident in there skills.
CX is in a world of trouble....shrinking this airline daily is a great way to save money. Its concerning and a massive problem. I would be very worried if you as a pilot don't have a plan B.

Any pilot wanting to join CX/KA I say honestly exhaust your options entirely before joining.

[canthelpit]

Like I said, COS18 is not good and I have told any who have asked that they should not do it.

otherwise, I’m happy that I live in DB and that I have a wife not working.

totaly makes me feel like a man lol

Im out

[Dan Winterland]

I know a lot of people at CX KA and other airlines that are all very happy and intend on staying for many years.

We obviously move in different circles. Most of the people CX/KA people I know, the main topic of conversation is about when they're getting out of here. Even among the locals. Those cadets who have another passport are all converting their licences, as the HKCAD ones are now not worth the paper they're printed on.

[unitedabx]

They are shrinking the airline secretly because the TB/CC is working.
Look at all the IntraCX news though and they desperately want everyone to believe they are still growing the airline.
Dont give up the fight.

The airline IS contracting both in passengers carried, freight tonnage and when the 12 ER's go back, aircraft numbers.

[mngmt mole]

There will be a lot more than 12 ER’s going back, says a fly on a wall. 😎