Can you fly with expired ASIC?

[mikewil]

Anyone know what the rules are regarding operating with an expired ASIC (obviously not operating at a security controlled aerodrome)?

I remember that if one did not apply for an ASIC they needed an AVID to be legally allowed to operate an aircraft. Does an expired ASIC mean your security status reverts to AVID status or can you not operate at all?

Cheers for any input

[ph-sbe]

Anyone know what the rules are regarding operating with an expired ASIC (obviously not operating at a security controlled aerodrome)?

I remember that if one did not apply for an ASIC they needed an AVID to be legally allowed to operate an aircraft. Does an expired ASIC mean your security status reverts to AVID status or can you not operate at all?

Cheers for any input

On https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/your-asic-questions-answered it says:

Are pilots still allowed to fly without an ASIC? (https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/your-asic-questions-answered#)
Yes. Pilots only need to have submitted an application for an AVID or an ASIC to operate an aircraft. The application will be processed and appropriate background checks undertaken prior to the AVID or ASIC being issued to an eligible pilot.

So if you just file your application for renewal, you should be ok, no?

[mikewil]

On https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/your-asic-questions-answered it says:

Are pilots still allowed to fly without an ASIC? (https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/your-asic-questions-answered#)
Yes. Pilots only need to have submitted an application for an AVID or an ASIC to operate an aircraft. The application will be processed and appropriate background checks undertaken prior to the AVID or ASIC being issued to an eligible pilot.

So if you just file your application for renewal, you should be ok, no?

I was aware of that but have considered not renewing the ASIC due to the cost and no need to go to security controlled aerodromes.

[YPJT]

Does CASA still process the AVID? Haven't seen one of those in years.
ASICs are a pain in the butt and likely to get more expensive over the next couple of years thanks to the cyber security compliance requirements imposed after this years hack.

[uncle8]

When my ASIC expired, a few years ago, CASA told me that you have to have one or the other, so I acquired an AVID. Why not ring them to confirm?

[zanthrus]

I will continue to fly without it next time when my current one expires. Not interested in proving that I am STILL not a terrorist every 2 years.

[Cloudee]

I know plenty of pilots who don’t bother to renew and RAAus pilots don’t need one in the first place. I’d suggest it’s better to ask forgiveness than to ask for permission in the very unlikely event you are questioned.

[Squawk7700]

I know plenty of pilots who don’t bother to renew and RAAus pilots don’t need one in the first place.

Ummmm yes they do! Raaus are one of the issuing bodies for the ASIC card.

It’s an AVID that they don’t need.

[Duck Pilot]

What’s it cost these days to renew an ASIC?

[Cloudee]

Ummmm yes they do! Raaus are one of the issuing bodies for the ASIC card.

It’s an AVID that they don’t need.

Ummm, no, RAAus pilots have never needed an ASIC or AVID to get a pilot certificate, RAAus pilots only need one if they fly into a security controlled airport. RAAus are no longer an issuing authority after the change in issuing procedures a couple of years ago.

I work at a school that does both RAAus and GA so I think we are on top of the requirements. Happy to look at any links you want to post to back up your claims.

Cheers.

[Jetjr]

- yeah, what he said...…..No RAA hasn't done ASIC for a while and don't believe its a requirement with RPC other than security aerodromes, ie with RPT

[Cloudee]

What’s it cost these days to renew an ASIC?

From CASA.
The fees below apply as of 1 August 2017.

Under 18 ASIC – $198.50
Note: ASIC will be valid for 6 months after 18th birthday
Initial ASIC – full security check required $256.50
ASIC renewal – $256.50
Replacement of an ASIC - $108.00

[Checklist Charlie]

Can you fly with expired ASIC?

Of course you can. Whether you have a piece of plastic, current or expired has no bearing on ones ability to fly an aircraft.

CC

[Lead Balloon]

Are you mad, CC?

If a PIC does not have a current ASIC the aircraft will be consequentially unairworthy and the pilot consequentially incompetent.

Frankly I’m surprised you’d make such a dangerous assertion.

[Captain Nomad]

Nope, definitely can't fly with an expired ASIC. Scientifically proven that there will be a loss of lift without it... :E

Haven't you heard it stands for 'Advanced Surface Increasing Canard' and you won't find it on any aircraft MEL which means the aircraft is grounded without it... :=

[Duck Pilot]

$256 to renew? **** that’s a lot of beer money - time to put my consultation rates up.

[YPJT]

I think RAAUS pulled the pin on being an issuing body when the ID proofing requirements came in.

$256 to renew? **** that’s a lot of beer money - time to put my consultation rates up.
Shop around, you might find it cheaper with another IB.
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about/transport-security/identity-security/issuing-bodies/asic-issuing-bodies
But if you have to go to Auspost for the ID check then it will be even more outrageously expensive.

[Duck Pilot]

Many thanks mate, quite useful info.

[mikewil]

Thanks for the replies, useful info.

While we're at it, does anyone know if the secondary Class D (old GAAP) airports like Moorabbin, Archerfield, Parafield etc require the display of an ASIC. In the ERSA they are listed as "security controlled" aerodromes but I remember a number of years back even with that status, there was an exemption that no ASIC was required if you didn't go near RPT areas etc.

[Squawk7700]

You need to display your ASIC when airside at Moorabbin.

[uncle8]

That exemption at Moorabbin, mentioned a few years ago, was on the CASA site but disappeared very shortly after it was highlighted on here.

[mostlytossas]

Don't need one at Parafield. And that was straight from the Airport's on site office. As a side note: if you hold a gate swipe card as those based there do for 24hr access airside and have an ASIC they will align it with your ASIC to cancel when the ASIC does. Then you need to re apply every 2 years along with the ASIC.
If you don't hold an ASIC you get a 2 year life on one anyway. They will be running CASA next!#!!

[cooperplace]

Are you mad, CC?

If a PIC does not have a current ASIC the aircraft will be consequentially unairworthy and the pilot consequentially incompetent.

Frankly I’m surprised you’d make such a dangerous assertion.

well fan my brow; I've got a RAAus licence, no ASIC, and I fly. it never occurred to me that my lack of ASIC might make the jab unairworthy.

[Okihara]

Is an ASIC an automatic right to go airside or do you also need an operational need, eg. I parked my aircraft on the apron at Essendon, hence my right to be airside at that airport?

If you need to go (say for operational reasons) from First Ave. to Northern Ave., which is a bit of a lengthy walk, could you just "cut straight across" the free movement apron on foot if you have your ASIC on?

[triton140]

Is an ASIC an automatic right to go airside or do you also need an operational need ...

An ASIC is necessary but not sufficient - eg I can't front up at YMML and demand to go out on the apron with my ASIC. But I can get a discount on my coffee ...

[Okihara]

But I can get a discount on my coffee ...
Seriously? At YMML? Any cafe?

[Squawk7700]

Seriously? At YMML? Any cafe?

Certainly not all of them. There is wording in the ASIC paperwork that mentions using it for then purpose for which it was intended. Flashing it at YMML which is effectively you representing yourself as an airport worker, is not.

You can also also use it to have the fees waived at Travelex when you convert your overseas holiday money :-)

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

An ASIC is just that - an identity card. It means you have undergone a standardised check of your background. That's all. It is just one part of the security control measures airports are required by law to implement to control access to various designated parts of the aerodrome. You also have to be an "authorised person" ie not one of these:

unauthorised person, in relation to a place or thing, means a person who:

(a) is not authorised by the owner or person in control of the place or thing to have access to the place or thing; and

(b) has no other lawful reason to have access to the place or thing.

[FGD135]

As I understand it, an ASIC is only required for airside access to the "security restricted areas" of certain airports. It is required at no other times.

Has this changed? What and where is the rule that says you need one to fly?

[Squawk7700]

As I understand it, an ASIC is only required for airside access to the "security restricted areas" of certain airports. It is required at no other times.

Has this changed? What and where is the rule that says you need one to fly?

- Some airports require it for all areas airside.
- Some airports require it to be displayed within the blue line area(s).
- Certain areas require it to be airside within a certain timeframe either side of an RPT arrival.

AFAIK you need approved photo ID to fly GA, so therefore an ASIC or an AVID (unless that one has changed recently?)

[YPJT]

Squawk7700,

Some airports require it for all areas airside.
With very few exceptions, if there is an ASIC display requirement then it applies to all areas airside. I seem to call Moorabbin had a specific area at one time when they had RPT operating out of there that required you to display an ASIC.
Some airports require it to be displayed within the blue line area(s).
That was a home baked solution to get around the screening requirement of non-RPT aircraft departing off the same apron. CASA didn't like the practice of non standard apron markings being painted and the change in reqs back in about 2011 there was not longer a need for it.
Certain areas require it to be airside within a certain timeframe either side of an RPT arrival.
That exemption applies to airports that do not have screened RPT services. The "Traffic Period" is two hours prior to the arrival until two hours after the departure of the RPT service. Creates an interesting question where the airport operators Transport Security Program might say a person has to display an ASIC at all times yet the regs allow for something else. Would be a good argument you could have with the airport staff if, on the unlikely chance they ask "where is your ASIC" and you say you are operating within the provisions of Regulation 3.03(4a).

[Capt Fathom]

Can you fly with expired ASIC?

Maybe if everyone did, the authorities might get the message! Or price it more realistically.

[YPJT]

The department has been very cunning in that regard and push 95% of compliance checking back onto the poor old airport operator who has no enforcement powers. Except for reporting or denying access

[FGD135]

Thanks, Squark7700. Nothing in the below about an ASIC or an AVID:


CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 139

Documents to be carried in Australian aircraft

(1) Subject to subregulation (2), the pilot in command of an aircraft, when flying, must carry on the aircraft:

(a) its certificate of registration;

(b) its certificate of airworthiness;

(c) if Part 42 of CASR does not apply to the aircraft--unless CASA otherwise approves, its maintenance release and any other document approved for use as an alternative to the maintenance release for the purposes of a provision of these Regulations;

(d) unless CASA otherwise approves, the licences and medical certificates of the operating crew;

(e) the flight manual (if any) for the aircraft;

(f) any licence in force with respect to the radio equipment in the aircraft;

(g) if the aircraft is carrying passengers--a list of the names, places of embarkation and places of destination of the passengers;

(h) if the aircraft is carrying cargo--the bills of lading and manifests with respect to the cargo.

Penalty (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s100.html#penalty): 10 penalty (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s100.html#penalty) units.

(2) An aircraft operating wholly within Australian territory is not required, when flying, to carry a document specified in paragraph (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s115.html#paragraph) (1)(a), (b), (f) or (g).

(3) An aircraft that is operated under an AOC need not carry its flight manual when flying if it carries on board an operations manual that:

(a) contains the information and instructions that are required, under the relevant airworthiness standards for the aircraft, to be included in the flight manual; and

(b) does not contain anything that conflicts with the information or instructions.

(4) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

Note: For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .

(5) Subregulation (1) does not apply to the pilot in command if the flight was authorised by a special flight permit issued under regulation 21.197 of CASR.

Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matters in subregulation (5) (see subsection (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s100.html#subsection) 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code ).

[Tankengine]

Thanks, Squark7700. Nothing in the below about an ASIC or an AVID:


CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988 - REG 139

Documents to be carried in Australian aircraft

(1) Subject to subregulation (2), the pilot in command of an aircraft, when flying, must carry on the aircraft:

(a) its certificate of registration;

(b) its certificate of airworthiness;

(c) if Part 42 of CASR does not apply to the aircraft--unless CASA otherwise approves, its maintenance release and any other document approved for use as an alternative to the maintenance release for the purposes of a provision of these Regulations;

(d) unless CASA otherwise approves, the licences and medical certificates of the operating crew;

(e) the flight manual (if any) for the aircraft;

(f) any licence in force with respect to the radio equipment in the aircraft;

(g) if the aircraft is carrying passengers--a list of the names, places of embarkation and places of destination of the passengers;

(h) if the aircraft is carrying cargo--the bills of lading and manifests with respect to the cargo.

Penalty (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s100.html#penalty): 10 penalty (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s100.html#penalty) units.

(2) An aircraft operating wholly within Australian territory is not required, when flying, to carry a document specified in paragraph (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s115.html#paragraph) (1)(a), (b), (f) or (g).

(3) An aircraft that is operated under an AOC need not carry its flight manual when flying if it carries on board an operations manual that:

(a) contains the information and instructions that are required, under the relevant airworthiness standards for the aircraft, to be included in the flight manual; and

(b) does not contain anything that conflicts with the information or instructions.

(4) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.

Note: For strict liability , see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code .

(5) Subregulation (1) does not apply to the pilot in command if the flight was authorised by a special flight permit issued under regulation 21.197 of CASR.

Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matters in subregulation (5) (see subsection (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/car1988263/s100.html#subsection) 13.3(3) of the Criminal Code ).
Nothing there about pilot’s licence or medical either! ;)

[FGD135]

Tankengine, have a look at subparagraph 1 (d).

[thunderbird five]

ASIC/AVID has nothing/nil/nada/nought/zippo/diddly-squat/FA/SFA/not a RA to do with CASA. It's not their party.
Aviation Transport Security Regulation 6.55.

[LeadSled]

well fan my brow; I've got a RAAus licence, no ASIC, and I fly. it never occurred to me that my lack of ASIC might make the jab unairworthy.

Cooperplace,
You miss the obvious, RAOz issue a certificate, not a license, so one must infer that "licensed" pilots, as opposed to "permitted" pilots, pose a much greater potential threat to national security. That figures, given the system of crims being let out of jail "on licence".

Seriously, airport's/aerodrome's decisions about being "security declared" have been grossly abused by aerodrome operators, usually in the pursuit of the subsidies available for fences etc. for "security purposes". Or trying to attract RPT operators by showing that "their" security already meets RPT requirements. Or so the local Mayor/President of Council can "boast" about how "safe" their "airport" is !!

Tootle pip!!

[FGD135]

Thanks, thunderbird five.

So, according to the Aviation Transport Security Regulations 2005, a cockie needs an ASIC/AVID to fly his C172 from paddock A to paddock B.

That figures. Always more bureaucracy. Ever increasing bureaucracy.

That regulation here:

http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s6.55.html

[thunderbird five]

Correct for the cockie driver. But not his RAAus registered C150A (for example). A costly pointless exercise for honest VH aviators, while totally exempting equally honest RAAus aviators who often fly the exact same aircraft from the exact same airfield. Does that pass the pub test? No. How can one team be a threat to national security, and the other team not? Either we all are, or we all aren't. 10,000 (whatever) RAAus members prove there is no threat. Therefore I decline to subscribe to that BS. They can insert their ASIC into the nearest card reader. Just say NO.

[aroa]

I think people need to have a bloody good read of the Aviation Transport Security Act.
Go mining...you will find some sparkling gems of bureaucracy gone bonkers.
A mate ...who had a renewal application in already, and a 'She Who Must Be Obeyed' from the Dept told him he must not even taxy his aircraft, let alone fly it !!

[Duck Pilot]

Aroa, Hope you’re mate got the Boss Meri to put her words in writing.

Got a quote from Darwin International Airport (DIA) this morning to renew mine, $220.

IMHO it’s a total waste of $220, but what alternative do I have if I want to fly from Darwin or any other airport that has RPT ops. If the validity periods were for 5 years or more I may have a slightly different opinion.

Can you still get a discount at airport shops and duty free with a valid ASIC at most airports?

[aroa]

Ducky...Yep, all in a big hefty letter.
The 2 year bit is all about revenue gathering and keeping them folks at the desks looking busy.
Wouldnt mind if it was 10 years, like a Drivers Licence. Why not perpetual...if you abuse it you lose it, as you will
Lets face it , after all the security checks...if you do something naughty, they'll cancel it immediately anyway 1 year or 8.
Its a classic example of how Oz bureaucrazies grow and get all 'hairy chested', like we are, in all likelihood to get up to no good just because you have/access to an aircraft.
With or without an ASIC a potential terrorist, security cleared or not, and not on the radar , will do what they do regardless of any plastic card.
Did the USA get into this circus for pilots after 9/11?
NO., they asked pilots and airport people to be part of the security system , keep a look out for suspicious activity and report to the appropriate authorities what gives.

[Duck Pilot]

How long are most people waiting to get their new ASIC issued? Submitted my application 6 weeks ago and I have received nothing other than being told than my application has been approved and essentially wait....

If I needed the card for employment and had to wait over 6 weeks, I would be ropable particularly if I wasn't getting paid. Next time I will submit 3 months in advance to ensure I don't end up with an expired card. For the money we need to pay, the delay in processing time is ridiculous particularly considering that I've held a pilots licence for over 30 years, what's the place coming too??

[aroa]

Coming to...?? Its already there.
The whole country has turned into a bureaucratic asylum.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

How long are most people waiting to get their new ASIC issued?
My son got a 3 month contract to chuck bags. He had to get an ASIC as he was working for more than the allowed 28 days on VIC's. Filled out the form during the employment process and paid the (non-refundable) $220. Waited for 10 weeks for ASIC. Everytime he queried where was it, it was "pending". Got it in time to wear it for last 6 shifts, then handed it back. At least he could work in the interim, as he had applied, so the 28 days is extended until you either get one or are denied. But not much value for the $220, and no accountability at the other end.

[YPJT]

How long are most people waiting to get their new ASIC issued? Submitted my application 6 weeks ago and I have received nothing other than being told than my application has been approved and essentially wait....

if they are saying the application has been approved I assume they mean that AUSCHECK has cleared you in which case the card should be printed straight away.

ever since they rolled over tonthe new AUSCHECK system as well as ID verification last October there has been a noticeable slowdown in processing times. Don’t be too quick to take it out on the issuing body you applied through as often the delays are out of their control.

[kaz3g]

How long are most people waiting to get their new ASIC issued? Submitted my application 6 weeks ago and I have received nothing other than being told than my application has been approved and essentially wait....

If I needed the card for employment and had to wait over 6 weeks, I would be ropable particularly if I wasn't getting paid. Next time I will submit 3 months in advance to ensure I don't end up with an expired card. For the money we need to pay, the delay in processing time is ridiculous particularly considering that I've held a pilots licence for over 30 years, what's the place coming too??

in which case you will probably pay for the 3 months twice.

kaz

[Squawk7700]

in which case you will probably pay for the 3 months twice.

kaz

No, not any more.

A friend of mine went to the ombudsman and had that changed so you don’t pay for when you don’t have it.

But yes... they used to do that.

[YPJT]

No, not any more.

A friend of mine went to the ombudsman and had that changed so you don’t pay for when you don’t have it.

But yes... they used to do that.


Squawk,
is there any reference to that? Not disputing it but Never heard of that ruling.
The AUSCHECK cost is incurred as soon as the submit button is clicked by the issuing body. In the case where an application is not proceeded with or is refused only the card cost, depending on the respective issuing body, may be refunded.

[cattletruck]

An Oz passport renewal costs $295 and is valid for 10 years.
My EU passport renewal costs 85EUD and is valid for 5 years.

Both these documents contain a security chip, special photo, are tamper resistant, can be processed by globally available equipment, and are an accepted method worldwide of proving you are you.

An ASIC is just "me too" bureaucracy gone wrong and has much weaker security and is more expensive to own for that privilege. The verification methods are often unenforced and when they are enforced are extremely unsophisticated.

I recall that the main reason for the obscene cost was with the printing of the ASIC itself. If this is still the case and hasn't been rectified in the last decade then it all must be a rort.

Can you fly with an expired ASIC? Yes you can and many do with unfettered freedom - but not in Australia.

[Squawk7700]

Squawk,
is there any reference to that? Not disputing it but Never heard of that ruling.
The AUSCHECK cost is incurred as soon as the submit button is clicked by the issuing body. In the case where an application is not proceeded with or is refused only the card cost, depending on the respective issuing body, may be refunded.

My understanding is that no matter when you press the submit button, you’ll only pay the auscheck fee once per 2 years, not sooner.

If anyone has received an ASIC that is dated from the time of the application rather than with a few days of issuing / receiving it, you need to contact the provider and if no luck the ombudsman.

[Cloudee]

From the CASA web site.
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/your-asic-questions-answered

The expiry dates for ASICs are based on the date of the criminal history record and is always the last day of the month. The date of expiry of an ASIC must not be longer than two years from the time the security checks are completed. This means that if your security check was completed on 11 May 2009, your ASIC would have an expiry date of 30 April 2011.

ASICs are issued following the background security check and assessment. In some cases the assessment process involves further investigations before the card can be issued. In this instance the validity period will be reduced depending on the outcome of the assessment of the application, and the eligibility period will usually be not more than one year.

[YPJT]

I recall that the main reason for the obscene cost was with the printing of the ASIC itself. If this is still the case and hasn't been rectified in the last decade then it all must be a rort.
That's part of it. Capital outlay for the equipment to print ASICs is between $40K - $50K. The continual cost of Auscheck clearances is the killer at about $92.00 a pop. So when you take nearly half the cost out just for the Auscheck, then the time involved to input the data, process the application, post the card out or issue in person, no one is driving Mercedes and Porches from processing these things.

Cloudee,
That CASA information is incorrect. An ASIC clearance remains in force 2 years from the end of the month in which the clearance was issued. Which probably relates to the point Squawk is making. A clearance issued today 13/02/2019 would expire 28/02/2021. So you get the best bang for your buck if your clearance comes in early in the month rather than right at the end. Very frustrating when you see someone has waited a few weeks only to get their clearance on the last day of the month.

A further example of CASAs ignorance in relation to Aviation Security, on a number of occasions I know of, they advised foreign pilots flying in Australia that they didn't need an ASIC to exercise the privileges of their certificates of validation. What they didn't tell them though is that they could not be given unescorted access to security controlled airports during times which ASIC display is required. Not too surprising though as their appointed contractor who processes ASICs on their behalf still refers to DOTARS on their web home page. :ugh:

[Duck Pilot]

Thanks for the info everyone, what’s involved in the front up bs interview to collect this red thing with my mug shot on it that’s costed me the equivalent of 5 or 6 slabs of piss? 🙃

[Clare Prop]

CASA now require an ASIC to process a certificate of validation, but that wasn't always the case.

[Squawk7700]

The annoying thing for foreigners coming to fly here is that they can get an AVID in advance, but can’t apply for an ASIC until they get here, which of course means they can’t visit controlled Airports on their air safaris. Some people come here, do a big trip and receive their ASIC just before they leave the country :-(

[Okihara]

Wait a minute. I understood that you need to display an ASIC when airside at AD Security Controlled aerodrome or, at least, be accompanied by someone who has one. Wouldn't it be enough for foreign visitors wishing to land at such places to ring up the AD manager (who supposedly has an ASIC) and ask him/her to escort them on their airside movements to/from the aircraft?

[YPJT]

Doesn’t really matter know. As Clareprop said, you won’t get a C of V without an ASIC. This debacle totally screwed what little was left of the flying holiday market

[Slippery_Pete]

Not interested in proving that I am STILL not a terrorist every 2 years.

I think the irony of this is missed by most.

[OK4Wire]

I fly out of BNE and don't even have an ASIC, let alone an expired one!

[kaz3g]

Coming to...?? Its already there.
The whole country has turned into a bureaucratic asylum.

Mr Dutton made it even harder and more rididiculous if possible. You now have to provide a full BC, not an extract as well as photographic and other evidence. Your Australian passport means didley squat.

Seems nonsensical when you consider a BC (or a naturalisation cerficate) has to be provided to support a passport application.

kaz

[Lead Balloon]

I think we need a law that says anyone who questions the efficacy of the ASIC system is a risk to security and therefore to be refused an ASIC - and hopefully interned indefinitely. Such a step would be in the interests of security.

We can’t let the fear of terrorism change our freedoms or the way we go about our daily lives. Otherwise the terrorists have won.

[zanthrus]

The ASIC is a waste of money and totally ineffective. We don’t need it.

[Lead Balloon]

The ASIC is a waste of money and totally ineffective. We don’t need it.
Off to the Gulag for you, zanthrus!

[Egipps]

Are you mad, CC?

If a PIC does not have a current ASIC the aircraft will be consequentially unairworthy and the pilot consequentially incompetent.

Frankly I’m surprised you’d make such a dangerous assertion.

Made me laugh Not a dangerous assertion just a statement of fact. If you can fly, you can fly without a medical, without a license, without an ASIC. Not sure it makes an aircraft unairworthy,or the pilot incompetent - except as it relates to being compliant.. But certainly means you'd be flying illegally. No insurance and subject to penalty. But your ability to fly would remain unaffected.

[ramble on]

When I fly in China and they ask for my Aviation or Crew ID out of interest when I show them my CASA ASIC the Chinese refuse to accept it as it doesn’t say CREW ID” or “AVIATION ID” anywhere on it.

ASIC is a joke that is unfit for purpose. Took me 6 weeks to get a renewed one, and them asking for a renewal every two years is just gross revenue gathering.

[Lead Balloon]

Two more for the Gulag:

Egipps and ramble on.

[Checklist Charlie]

Egipps has noted except as it relates to being compliant.
Of course one might be compliant but that will not necessarily mean one is safe.
Compliance is a static paperwork status, safety (of flight) is whole different dynamic beast entirely.

CC

[NOSIGN]

How long are most people waiting to get their new ASIC issued? Submitted my application 6 weeks ago and I have received nothing other than being told than my application has been approved and essentially wait....

If I needed the card for employment and had to wait over 6 weeks, I would be ropable particularly if I wasn't getting paid. Next time I will submit 3 months in advance to ensure I don't end up with an expired card. For the money we need to pay, the delay in processing time is ridiculous particularly considering that I've held a pilots licence for over 30 years, what's the place coming too??

The ASIC collection process has seemingly added another element of delay. In my case, Merimbula have done their work, oz check have done theirs, but I’m waiting for the agent to advise ready for collection. Pretty p$ssed at the tardy performance. Duck Pilot is onto something wrt perpetual asic until loss of privilege occurs.

[Duck Pilot]

Finally collected my ASIC a couple of weeks ago, however the process has a lot to be desired particularly considering my background as a licenced pilot in Australia and the absorbent cost for the card. To the issuers credit (CASA) the new ASIC was issued from the month I collected it and no from the month my previous card expired.

The complicated and stupid process lies with the rule makers in Canberra, not the ASIC team or front end distributors, particularly considering the fact that they will not accept a current passport as a form of identification and mandate that only original birth certificates are allowed - what a load of sh!t particularly for someone who has held an ASIC from literally day one when they were first mandated by legislation.

[mostlytossas]

So what happens if you are one of the many who have lost their birth certificate years ago? No ASIC? Fine then I will carry on without one.
In all the years I have had one since introduced I have only been asked to display it twice. Both times at a country airport just as the Rex was approaching,by some overly keen council worker. Turn up outside these times no one's home.

[Duck Pilot]

Suggest you seek information from the CASA ASIC team, their number is listed on the CASA website. Just remember that they aren’t calling the shots, they are only delivering the product under explicit instructions that have been dictated by our great decision makers in the big town of Canberra.

[YPJT]

So what happens if you are one of the many who have lost their birth certificate years ago? No ASIC?
unfortunately yes. If you are born in Australia you need a full original birth certificate. No extracts.
Many have been caught out and have had to contact their births deaths and marriages registry in their state for a new one.

[Capt Fathom]

Many have been caught out and have had to contact their births deaths and marriages registry in their state for a new one.

Which in QLD took me one week and $54 for a full Birth Certificate. I didn’t realise I only had an extract all these years!

[YPJT]

The complicated and stupid process lies with the rule makers in Canberra, not the ASIC team or front end distributors,
thanks Duck Pilot. That’s exactly the situation

[Tankengine]

Which in QLD took me one week and $54 for a full Birth Certificate. I didn’t realise I only had an extract all these years!


I realised I had an extract, just never needed more until now!
I now have a fancy new birth certificate, just no ASIC yet.
My company paid for the birth certificate as it is required.

[griffster94]

Hail. This is particularly an annoying rule when you’re not actually a pilot, but you’re an Aero club member. And your clubhouse is in the Airside area of an airport. And you’re blind, and everybody thinks that you can’t do anything just because of that. Canberra Airport is the worst, with two factor authentication, and security everywhere.

[lucille]

I’d like to know if the ASIC vetting process actually rejects anyone with good reason. Judging by the numbers of dodgy baggage handlers with ASICS in Sydney and Melbourne over the years, I’d say the buggeration factor far exceeds its value.

[Xeptu]

It gets worse when everything was lost in the fire and you have a mother that refuses to accept that she gave birth to such a **** kid.:)

[griffster94]

I’d like to know if the ASIC vetting process actually rejects anyone with good reason. Judging by the numbers of dodgy baggage handlers with ASICS in Sydney and Melbourne over the years, I’d say the buggeration factor far exceeds its value.
Yeah I didn’t know that. So they’re happy to give dodgy baggage handlers one, but not Aero club members who are not pilots but need it.

[megan]

Some years ago received an ASIC in the mail, never had one, hadn't applied for one, didn't have my name on it, but what the hell. :E Was returned to sender.

[Pinky the pilot]

And I once knew of a person who had an ASIC that from memory, exprired April 2008. :hmm:

I believe he still has it!:ooh: Just never got around to handing it in.

[Capt Fathom]

My God. When mine expired, I had seconds to either renew it or post back the old card pronto or face legal action.
I dropped it in the post box and said goodbye ASIC.
$254 per card. What a rort.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I’d like to know if the ASIC vetting process actually rejects anyone with good reason.
What's a bad reason to reject someone during the ASIC vetting process?

[Squawk7700]

My God. When mine expired, I had seconds to either renew it or post back the old card pronto or face legal action.
I dropped it in the post box and said goodbye ASIC.
$254 per card. What a rort.

I got threatened with that too. I almost get compelled to send it back express so that I didn’t go to jail.

Meanwhile someone down my street is wanted for questioning for agg-bergs but they are too lazy to come and find him.

[lucille]

The whole ASIC rubbish is the reason I’ve given up private flying. I get that it’s essential at International airports and possibly a couple of the busier domestic RPT airport. But Birdsville? FFS.

Last year, I was asked to present my ASIC at Roma - I was the only movement in about 2 hours and had 5 friends, none of whom even looked like they had ever worn a burka… double FFS.

I now consider myself blessed to have spent the last 30+ years of my career outside Oz and especially not flying VH reg. aircraft. Nowhere else is there such surly, heavy handed and inane bureaucracy. No doubt they sleep well at night with their delusions of preventing a couple Jihadis in a PA-28 from taking control of Boulia airport.

[runway16]

I collected my new ASIC in February, a month after I could have. I was interstate at the time. At XXX airport I had to show my then ASIC (expired) to the so called security guy. He noted it had expired. I said the new one was ready to pick up. So he rang the good bergs at Merimbula and got a confirmation that I was ridge didge. Then I got to get to airside and my aircraft.

OK. So I duly picked up my ASIC and as required I gave in my old card.
About four months later I get a letter in the mail. It was threatening me with severe consequences if I did not immediately had back the old ASIC card. Jail and big dollar fine.
I sent back an email, 'Good luck'. Never heard another word.
Perhaps they had caught up with the paperwork by then.

Next time I have to do an old for new ASIC card I will take a pic of the ASIC bod with my phone to ensure that they do not run a repeat.

[megan]

Nowhere else is there such surly, heavy handed and inane bureaucracyWas most surprised at LAX to arrive on a domestic and had a need to get to the international. Lounge to get the bus was open to the ramp and no one in attendance, person could have created mayhem.

[galdian]

Appears as an improvement (?) to the procedure - for renewal anyway - you do application/documents on line, checks carried out and meeting with agent to confirm original documents (these two actions timing appears variable, maybe simultaneously) then the new card is posted out.

Did the application 5 days ago and authorised them to proceed with the checking, waiting to hear if any paperwork hassles and a time for the document meeting.

As I live in regional Vic but nominated Essendon as meeting point that may hold things up another couple of weeks.

[extralite]

ASIC. Luxury! I still think Gold Coast airport must take the global prize for most bureaucratic place in the world to fly GA. Being from the border zone, at the moment i need to be able to present:

1. ASIC Card. Every 2 years.
2. AUA License to drive airside. Apply every 2 years.
3. ADA license...license for the vehicle to operate airside which is limited to just the GA hangars adjacent to a boundary gate. Apply every 2 years,
4. Vaccination certificate.
5. Entry pass into QLD.
6. License.
7.Rego.

The last 2 items nobody seems to worry about :) The other day when I pulled my aircraft from the hangar to give it a wash, the Federal Police showed up (no issue), the QLD state police showed up..no issue as not going anywhere, and the airport security people showed up to check items 2 and 3 above. Although polite, it felt that any of these people were looking for an excuse to ping me for something. All i needed was CASA there too and i could have had the regulatory jackpot. It is an insane place to operate from.

[Xeptu]

I was hoping this thread would find me a reason to ditch these stupid ASIC's I don't get into the Capital City Airports much these days and I can't remember the last time I had to show someone my card, but it's always seemed to be a better option to just have one. I do find them to be an expense we don't need to have. For other than Airline associated personnel in and through the terminals, I can't see why they can't be a one-off issue.

[Pinky the pilot]

Although polite, it felt that any of these people were looking for an excuse to ping me for something.

I would submit that no, that is not the case, but that they were merely hassling you so that it would appear (to the ignorant, ie the General Public) that they were actually doing something, but in reality only to justify their existance!:mad::*:ugh:

[cattletruck]

I recall from over a decade ago that the biggest cost in issuing an ASIC was with its printing. Is this still the case today? Technology has moved on in leaps and bounds in the id-card printing business which should reduce this cost to just a few cents per ASIC. If the printing cost is still the predominant cost with issuing an ASIC after more than a decade then this has to be some kind of rort funding someone else's lavish lifestyle.

Perhaps we can have a royal commission into the cost of issuing an ASIC.

[lucille]

I’ll bet you could get ASICS replicated in China for less than $5. The obese, jackbooted gronks who actually peruse and finger your card couldn’t tell the difference ….. assuming that they can even read and write.

[megan]

Looking for a good home

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/922x613/asic_1d5fa4893b78db82eed20a40231e4cc5abf062f0.png

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

I can't see why they can't be a one-off issue
I get you mean for other than regular users, but in general: I asked an OTS guy once why they had to be renewed every two years, or even if they were, why I had to continually submit the same ID documents over and over again. He said it's because people's circumstances change. It's all about maintaining a verifiable trail of "who you are or purport yourself to be in the community". They essentially treat every application as a new application. The other reason is that it is "owners onus" to report things to OTS that may render you no longer suitable to hold an ASIC. Since the fact that reporting that may lose you your job, there is an understandable reluctance for most people to report. They reckon every two years is sufficient time to make sure our criminal records haven't changed, and we just forgot to tell them about it. I said it seemed crazy that my current ASIC wasn't good enough to be considered as part of the ID requirements. He just smiled and said that just because you have an ASIC doesn't mean you should still have an ASIC.
It's their empire.

[Xeptu]

I get it in the case of the terminal area and security controlled zones, where the staff turnover is high, it probably should expire. But for a Pilot who will always be a Pilot, what's the point, particularly in a GA zone. Surely there can be a case for a non secured zone one-off issue ID card. I thought that was what the AVID was intended to be, but the requirements are all the same minus a security controlled zone for about $100 less. Pointless then, may as well hold an ASIC.

The really absurd part is what does holding an ASIC really do.

[30/30 Green Light]

Don't know about now, but it used to get a you a discount on booze at the Duty Free!

[Checkboard]

I used to use it for free entry into nightclubs.

[Xeptu]

Put a bar code on it that can be scanned with a simple phone app, to check is genuine and hasn't been revoked, also if it doesn't open doors anymore is a good way to raise security awareness.
If police know while your driving your car that your registration has expired, can check your drivers licence hasn't been suspended/cancelled, then a revoked/cancelled ASIC by security personnel can't be all that hard.

[Squawk7700]

Don't know about now, but it used to get a you a discount on booze at the Duty Free!

I use mine when at the international airport when converting dollars at Travelex as they don’t charge the fee for pilots.

That being said their exchange rate is terrible and you’re better off using an ATM.

[Kylie walker]

Are you mad, CC?

If a PIC does not have a current ASIC the aircraft will be consequentially unairworthy and the pilot consequentially incompetent.

Frankly I’m surprised you’d make such a dangerous assertion.
totally agree with you, renewal is annoying, however so is car registration, it doesn’t mean you stop paying it! 🙄

[Lead Balloon]

Oh dear.

You do realise, Kylie, that there are lots (and lots) of people who lawfully fly without an ASIC? Not only is there no causal link between the airworthiness of an aircraft and whether its pilot is or is not the holder of a valid ASIC, and no causal link between the pilot's competence and whether the pilot is or is not the holder of an ASIC, but there is no law that says you're not allowed to fly without an ASIC. Lots (and lots) of people fly in Australia without holding a licence issued by CASA, in and out of places at which ASICs are not required.

[Kylie walker]

Oh dear.

You do realise, Kylie, that there are lots (and lots) of people who lawfully fly without an ASIC? Not only is there no causal link between the airworthiness of an aircraft and whether its pilot is or is not the holder of a valid ASIC, and no causal link between the pilot's competence and whether the pilot is or is not the holder of an ASIC, but there is no law that says you're not allowed to fly without an ASIC. Lots (and lots) of people fly in Australia without holding a licence issued by CASA, in and out of places at which ASICs are not required.

sorry, my bad. I was referring to Australian commercial pilots, I should have been more specific.
I’m fairly sure commercial pilots need an ASIC, it says so on the Asic website

[Clare Prop]

Here is the law.
AVIATION TRANSPORT SECURITY REGULATIONS 2005 - REG 6.55 Exercise of privileges of flight crew licences etc (austlii.edu.au) (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s6.55.html#:~:text=AVIATION%20TRANSPORT%20SECURITY%20REGULAT IONS%202005%20-%20REG%206.55,person%20has%20an%20adverse%20aviation%20secur ity%20status%3B%20and)

Nothing to do with CASA and they have no authority to enforce it. However they will not issue a licence without it.

[Cloudee]

Oh dear.

You do realise, Kylie, that there are lots (and lots) of people who lawfully fly without an ASIC? Not only is there no causal link between the airworthiness of an aircraft and whether its pilot is or is not the holder of a valid ASIC, and no causal link between the pilot's competence and whether the pilot is or is not the holder of an ASIC, but there is no law that says you're not allowed to fly without an ASIC. Lots (and lots) of people fly in Australia without holding a licence issued by CASA, in and out of places at which ASICs are not required.AVIATION TRANSPORT SECURITY REGULATIONS 2005 - REG 6.55Note: A flight crew (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s1.03.html#crew) licence is a security designated authorisation (see regulation 1.08 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s1.08.html) and section 74G of the Act).
(2) Subject to subregulation (4), a person who is over 18, and holds a security designated authorisation, must not perform a duty that is essential to the operation of an aircraft while the aircraft is in Australian (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s1.03.html#australia) territory unless:
(a) his or her aviation security status check is current; or
(b) he or she has requested an aviation security status check.

I don’t think it is enforced but is that not a law that prohibits you flying without a current ASIC?

[KRviator]

Only applies to CASA-issued FCL's, though, if you delve into the definitions deeply enough. RAAus, GFA, HGFA et al, all fly without that pesky piece of plastic. (Usually) quite safely, too... And it doesn't even have to be an ASIC! You can apply for an AVID - it's not the card that needs to be current, it's the security check, (which is done for an AVID, as well) And you don't actually need an ASIC to fly - you can just have applied for one, even if that application is subsequently refused! You've been good to fly in th intervening period.

Yup, that's logical, yesirreee! Only in Oz...:ugh:

[Clare Prop]

The Transport Security Regs require a holder of a Flight Crew Licence to have a current security check ie ASIC or AVID.
RAAus etc are not licences, they are certificates issued by a non government entity.
Holders of those only need them if they are going to an aerodrome that requires ASICs to be airside.
It is ridiculous and this has been pointed out to the OTS before.
Just bear in mind that in some parts of the world you need the equivalent of an ASIC for every different aerodrome you fly into, so having one for the whole country makes more sense than that.

[tossbag]

You idiots, how else do you get the ice off your windscreen if you haven't got an ASIC?

[dejapoo]

You idiots, how else do you get the ice off your windscreen if you haven't got an ASIC?

And CSFF on a 737 lower wing. Works a treat

[Lead Balloon]

Cloudee: The answer is in posts #108 and #109.

[First_Principal]

And CSFF on a 737 lower wing. Works a treat

It may be efficient but is it an approved tool (https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/SIB_201408_Boeing_737NG_Cold_Soaked_Fuel_Frost_Dispatch.pdf/SIB_2014-08_1)? :}

[KRviator]

The Transport Security Regs require a holder of a Flight Crew Licence to have a current security check ie ASIC or AVID.
RAAus etc are not licences, they are certificates issued by a non government entity.
Holders of those only need them if they are going to an aerodrome that requires ASICs to be airside.Yep, because those Jabarooooo pilots aren't as much of a threat as someone rocking up in a Diamond or 150 doing a NavEx... But to top that last sentence off, even though an airport may be designated as "Security controlled", that only applies during the traffic period, so if your ASIC-less pilot still wants to stage through there, and can schedule his ETA/ATD around the RPT, they still don't need an ASIC to be airside.

Only in Oz....

[Capt Fathom]

The Transport Security Regs require a holder of a Flight Crew Licence to have a current security check ie ASIC or AVID.


Would that be for the issue of a Flight Crew License?

[Kylie walker]

Only applies to CASA-issued FCL's, though, if you delve into the definitions deeply enough. RAAus, GFA, HGFA et al, all fly without that pesky piece of plastic. (Usually) quite safely, too... And it doesn't even have to be an ASIC! You can apply for an AVID - it's not the card that needs to be current, it's the security check, (which is done for an AVID, as well) And you don't actually need an ASIC to fly - you can just have applied for one, even if that application is subsequently refused! You've been good to fly in th intervening period.

Yup, that's logical, yesirreee! Only in Oz...:ugh:

Yes, AUsCheck background checks.. I’m still waiting for my clearance to return, I need asic to access secure areas. I’ve missed the May intake for GS because of delays in processing. Thankfully, there is another Qantas GS in early July. I’ve waited 25 years to apply for this job, I don’t mind waiting another 2 months.. 😌

[Clare Prop]

Would that be for the issue of a Flight Crew License?

CASA won't issue a new licence without a current security check. That's their only involvment in it.At the moment ASIC or AVID are the only ones they will accept.

Reg 6.55 is from the Transport Security Regulations, not the Civil Aviation Regulations.
A flight crew (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s1.03.html#crew) licence is a security designated authorisation (see regulation 1.08 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s1.08.html) and section 74G of the Act).
(2) Subject to subregulation (4), a person who is over 18, and holds a security designated authorisation, must not perform a duty that is essential to the operation of an aircraft while the aircraft is in Australian (http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/atsr2005457/s1.03.html#australia) territory unless:
(a) his or her aviation security status check is current; or

(b) he or she has requested an aviation security status check.

[Clare Prop]

Yes, cabin crews need one, as they can’t access secure areas of Aus airports without permission.
CASA have nothing to do with ASICS.
CASA are under the Civil Aviation Act/ Regulations.
ASICs come under Transport Security Regulations.

an airport may be designated as "Security controlled", that only applies during the traffic period, so if your ASIC-less pilot still wants to stage through there, and can schedule his ETA/ATD around the RPT, they still don't need an ASIC to be airside.

Not necessarily, that depends on what is written in that aerodrome's Transport Security Program.

[Capt Fathom]

The Transport Security Regs require a holder of a Flight Crew Licence to have a current security check ie ASIC or AVID


So based on TSR reg 6.55 para (3)(a) below, you don’t necessarily need an ASIC, but need a Security Status Check at least every 5 years!

(2) ……..a person who is over 18, and holds a security designated authorisation, must not perform a duty that is essential to the operation of an aircraft while the aircraft is in Australian territory unless:

(a) his or her aviation security status check is current; or
(b) he or she has requested an aviation security status check.

(3) For paragraph (2)(a), a person's aviation security status check is current at a particular time if:

(a) it was carried out no more than 5 years before that time; or
(b) he or she has requested that a new check be carried out; or
(c) within the previous 2 years, he or she underwent a background check for the issue of an ASIC.

:confused: