IFR being held at 8,500 feet in VMC – less safety

[Dick Smith]

At the present time in Australia pilots on an IFR flight plan cannot enter Class E without a clearance - even in VMC.

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how this problem can be solved in Australia?

[Capn Bloggs]

We have 1/20 of the traffic and IFR pilots are legally required to prevent collisions by looking out in VMC. What's the problem?

[Dick Smith]

A big 737 will use more fuel leveling off at 8000’ rather than continuing to climb.

There is also more risk of a collision below 10,000’ compared to above. Why not get above most of the small planes?

[Atlas Shrugged]

Not this again........................FFS!

:ugh::ugh:

[Derfred]

I fly 737’s to Class G airports, and I’ve never had to wait outside class E waiting for a clearance.

Not saying it can’t happen, but if it did it doesn’t burn much more fuel. If I can’t get a clearance it will be because there is another aircraft in my way. In that situation I’d rather stay out of it’s way!

On the other hand, I’m almost always held down at 5000’ for several minutes departing 34R in Sydney in Class C.

[junior.VH-LFA]

When does anyone have a problem getting a clearance though... this is some serious low quality bait.

[andrewr]

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists

I'm not sure I understand the question. I am pretty sure in the situation you describe, the pilots will be operating under visual flight rules until they have their IFR clearance i.e. despite the flight plan they are VFR. And the opposite seems pretty common on approach, cancelling IFR once they are visual and no longer need IFR-IFR separation by ATC.

I don't know if there is a procedure to change from VFR to IFR in the air in Australia - it seems like it must be possible?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

There is also more risk of a collision below 10,000’ compared to above. Why not get above most of the small planes?
By 8000 it already has.

[Dick Smith]

Could it be “request clearance”?

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

You are not correct Dick.
An IFR flight can enter Class E without a clearance in VMC using the “IFR Pick-up” procedure.
(it is not subject to ATC approval....they can’t “refuse” it)

[Dick Smith]

Has anyone actually used this procedure? I have not heard anyone use it.

[TheGruntle]

Why would they need to use IFR pickup Dick when they get a clearance. As seaid previously, on the incredibly rare circumstance that there is a delay in clearance, it is due to there being another IFR aircraft in CTA. And you want to just plough on through?

More often than not ATC will propose another option like a radial or heading to expect clearance on with a very minor delay.

Bear in mind that most aircraft that'll hit 8k fast enough to possibly cause a delay will be covered by company ops that require they don't do IFR pickup and furthermore, I know of places that will require the 'passive' party to IFR pickup to ask for avoidance.

How would you feel if you're IFR, punching along at 9k, or 13k and hear some jet denied a clearance due traffic in CTA only to have that jet then ask to punch through you on their own perogative?

[Car RAMROD]

Maybe no-one has needed to use it because they've all got clearances?

Has anybody here, when IFR, been held below 8500 because of no clearance? Never happened to me, and I've never heard it either on the radio.

[AmarokGTI]

Has anyone actually used this procedure? I have not heard anyone use it.

Yes. Extensively. It was used as standard practice by a major Adelaide based Flight Training school for years. Departure ex YPPF in VMC but wanting to practice instrument approaches at YPED/YPAD. Depart VFR to SKI then track to HANCH (using point to point nav on the RMI when flying one of the non GNSS aircraft) or Buckland Park and then IFR Pickup.

[Dick Smith]

Gruntle, so the advantages of our much proven G airspace and self separation can be used when VMC exists and the advantages of class A when IMC exists.

[TheGruntle]

I'm not sure I follow your response Dick. The option of IFR pickup exists. The fact of the matter is that it is rarely needed, in the occasions that there is a conflict preventing a clearance, it is common for ATC to provide another option to ensure segregation such as a radial and in the very rare instances where it is used, the passive party wants out of it. Separation standards exist for a reason. Most everyone buys into them and this issue you appear to be trying to highlight is so rare in occuring that it's a non issue.

[Capn Bloggs]

so the advantages of our much proven G airspace and self separation can be used when VMC exists
Say what? Pilot to pilots self-segregation comms on the Class E ATC freq? No! :D

As pointed out by Gruntle (welcome on board the Hampster Wheel) you'd be mad and/or an idiot to let another aeroplane, denied a clearance by ATC, go through your level without finding out where they are and what they are doing. Classic Class E hogpodge. Clayton's airspace.

PS: Glad you finally agree our Class G+ is a great system. :ok:

[Dick Smith]

Yep bloggsy. Our existing class G is the way to go. An upgrade to E brings in full atc separation for IFR in IMC but professional pilots like you do not need the upgrade. Only an incompetent professional pilot would make an error like the king air one at Mt Hotham. You would never do that so class G can remain. Only those yanks who only designed and built the FA18 would need the upgrade to class E.

[TheGruntle]

Yep bloggsy. Our existing class G is the way to go. An upgrade to E brings in full atc separation for IFR in IMC but professional pilots like you do not need the upgrade. Only an incompetent professional pilot would make an error like the one at Mt Hotham. You would never do that so class G can remain.

Please explain what Mt Hotham has to do with this Dick? That was an aircraft flying an arrival procedure in G, what are you suggesting needs to change to prevent a recurrence of such an incident?

[Derfred]

Can I ask you to elaborate on your point, Dick?

Are you suggesting an expansion of Class E airspace, together with changing the rules of Class E airspace to allow uncontrolled IFR in VMC?

In other words, the cloudy bits of the airspace are treated as Class A, and the not-cloudy bits of the airspace are treated as class G?

How does the controller know where the cloudy bits are?

[Dick Smith]

In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?

[flying-spike]

In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?
AIREPS, PIREPS?

[Derfred]

In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?

OK, thanks Dick.

So effectively what we’re talking about is Class G below cloud level and Class A above - varying dynamically with the cloud base.

Sounds fine to me, although with our traffic density is there any need to change the status quo?

As an RPT 737 operator, I currently operate Class G out of places like Kalgoorlie or Port Hedland and hit Class E at FL180. I could be in cloud for all of that time in Class G. If you lowered the Class E altitude boundary, that would take a load off me for pilot-to-pilot separation and transfer that load to ATC. That sounds great to me as an airline pilot, but wouldn’t it increase ATC costs?

What is your motivation for this?

[junior.VH-LFA]

I really fail to see (as someone who operates IFR out of Class G daily) how this is necessary or could be justified in Australia with our traffic density.

If there's traffic, talk to them. It's really not that hard.

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

I’ve heard that Class E above F125 where it is currently F180 across the continent is not far away.
Can anybody tuned in confirm???

[andrewr]

I really fail to see (as someone who operates IFR out of Class G daily) how this is necessary or could be justified in Australia with our traffic density.

If there's traffic, talk to them. It's really not that hard.

That is exactly the big sky theory. Talking works most of the time, there have been a few instances where talking failed, and we were reliant 100% on big sky theory. There are almost certainly more we never hear about.

The problem is, accurate navigation i.e. IFR effectively makes the sky a lot smaller. That is why ATC was invented.

[Bankstown Boy]

Maybe no-one has needed to use it because they've all got clearances?

Has anybody here, when IFR, been held below 8500 because of no clearance? Never happened to me, and I've never heard it either on the radio.
Sort of, but only once.

Coming out of Glen Innes in the dead of winter, freezing level well below LSALT with lots of wet, grey cloud about topping at about 9,000. I was IFR, in IMC (but out of the clouds) and ATC said to remain outside controlled airspace.

A quick response of "required due weather" was all it took and the clearance was given.

We have great ATC here in Aus and I really, really had to scratch my head to remember the sole example that might qualify for Ramrod.

[Atlas Shrugged]

This thread should be made into a YouTube video !!

How, just how, did I know that this was going to contain exactly the same drivel as the last 2,000 threads started on the very same subject by the very same person over the past 10 years............. I can hardly wait for the reference to Williamtown Airspace and that bloody VFR lane or whatever it is up there and the Mt Hotham crash........... Oh... I see it's already a few posts back.........oh well, I'll just have to wait for Lismore & Ballina then........

Utter gibberish nonsense

[Dick Smith]

Atlas, so sad you are angry with an obvious chip on your shoulder.

You dont have to read or reply to my posts.

Its a a free country and I learn a lot from being involved with this site.

Any success I have achieved is by asking advice and taking notice of the advice which is most likely to be correct.

Thanks to those who post in a positive way!

PS. Mt Hotham, Ballina, Lismore ect!

[oggers]

Dick Smith you will of course be able to cite where in the FAA AIM it states that one is allowed to enter class e airspace under IFR without a clearance. Except I don’t know where you got that idea. It is for that reason one gets a clearance void time on every single IFR departure from an uncontrolled airport. You cannot enter controlled airspace IFR without a clearance. You are confused. In the states you can enter class e vfr without a clearance, not IFR. The end.

[LeadSled]

Dick Smith you will of course be able to cite where in the FAA AIM it states that one is allowed to enter class e airspace under IFR without a clearance. Except I don’t know where you got that idea. It is for that reason one gets a clearance void time on every single IFR departure from an uncontrolled airport. You cannot enter controlled airspace IFR without a clearance. You are confused. In the states you can enter class e vfr without a clearance, not IFR. The end.

Oggers,
You do understand the extent of E in US, do you? And the slightly different use of terminology with VFR and VMC in the US? Although the result is the same.
Not to mention the ease of getting a clearance in US, or filing airborne, and I am not referring to radar or VHF coverage.
Tootle pip!!

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

[QUOTE=Bankstown Boy;10291731]Sort of, but only once.

Coming out of Glen Innes in the dead of winter, freezing level well below LSALT with lots of wet, grey cloud about topping at about 9,000. I was IFR, in IMC (but out of the clouds) and ATC said to remain outside controlled airspace.

Often ATC needs to coordinate with an adjacent sector to approve a clearance. As I have been told, “remain outside controlled airspace” is the response required until the clearance is agreed.

[Dick Smith]

Oggers Look at my first post again. I made it clear that it was an aircraft that was on an IFR flight plan. I did not say it was in IMC.

My first post is factual. What bit don’t you understand?

[cLeArIcE]

Has anyone actually used this procedure? I have not heard anyone use it.
Have you ever tried flying a 737 in the USA? It's great not having to worry about bloody CTA steps on descent like I have to here :rolleyes:

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Any success I have achieved is by asking advice and taking notice of the advice which is most likely to be correct.
Except if it doesn't agree with your preconception. Then you denigrate and insult.
Thanks to those who post in a positive way!
QED

[malroy]

pp24 of Airservices Corporate Plan??

[The Banjo]

At the present time in Australia pilots on an IFR flight plan cannot enter Class E without a clearance - even in VMC.

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how this problem can be solved in Australia?
Dick,

A thinking pilot will set a standard IFR level OCTA (in your example 8,000 west bound OR 7,000 east bound) until receiving the clearance airborne.
It ain't rocket science.

[Atlas Shrugged]

Atlas, so sad you are angry with an obvious chip on your shoulder.

I'm not in the slightest way angry - it's not in my nature, nor do I have a chip on my shoulder........to say that is entirely an assumption on your part

I simply have neither the need, nor indeed desire, to fly in that airspace and frankly, I could not care any less about it. I'm sick and tired of reading the same thing over and over and over again about it.

Having said that You dont have to read or reply to my posts................as you wish.....

[Dick Smith]

To others, I think Atlas Shrugged means he does not want to see G upgraded to E anywhere.

Even though it would maximise the advantages of ADSB.

Incredible!

[Dick Smith]

Banjo, that clearly does not solve the problem of pilots having to level off at lower levels when this would not be required in other leading aviation countries. Why not copy the best?

[MarkerInbound]

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.

Just a point of order. I would say most IFR flights in the US pick up their clearance on the ground. If they are departing from one of the 500+ airports with a control tower they'll get the clearance from ground control or clearance delivery. If they are departing from an uncontrolled airport there are ways to get the clearance over the phone or through a remote communications outlet. If they do depart VFR they'll contact ATC shortly after leaving the traffic pattern Certainly well before 17 thousand.

You can now return to whatever it is you're talking about.

[A Squared]

In the USA the controllers in E use this system and in many cases the IFR planned aircraft climbs to the highest level available while in VMC.

I am am not sure how the controllers in the USA know what level the cloud starts. Can anyone help with that one?

The controllers don’t know, nor do they need to know. They either issue an IFR clearance or they don’t. If they don’t issue a clearence, you are free to depart VFR, but it is incumbent on you to maintain VFR cloud clearances until such time that you can get an IFR clearance. If VMC exists to 18,000 ft, you are free to climb to 17,500 ft.

[A Squared]

Are you suggesting an expansion of Class E airspace, together with changing the rules of Class E airspace to allow uncontrolled IFR in VMC?








I don't know what Dick is suggesting, but as a point of reference, in the US, which is relevant as Dick keeps referring to the US, there is no uncontrolled IFR in VMC in class E airspace, an aircraft flying in Class E airspace without an IFR clearance is VFR, and must comply with all the rules for VFR flight (cloud clearances, meteorological conditions, etc.

Also, for the vast majority of the US, Class E airspace begins at 700 or 1200 ft AGL. there are areas in the Rocky Mountain Reigon and in Alaska, where Class G airspace exists above those altitudes, but that's more the exception.

[Capn Bloggs]

If they don’t issue a clearence, you are free to depart VFR, but it is incumbent on you to maintain VFR cloud clearances until such time that you can get an IFR clearance.
I'd have thought it would be more incumbent of one to find out the location of and avoid the aircraft that's preventing one getting a clearance. Or are does one just blast on up looking out the window?

[A Squared]

I'd have thought it would be more incumbent of one to find out the location of and avoid the aircraft that's preventing one getting a clearance. Or are does one just blast on up looking out the window?

In the absence of me taking the time to type a description of how I identify the location of the other traffic and arrange to not hit it, which is not relevant to the point I was making, I suppose that one approach might be to assume without evidence that I wouldn't take any precautions. I'm not sure why one might choose that approach though, given that it reflects somewhat poorly on the person making unwarranted assumptions and groundless accusations. KWIM?

[Derfred]

At the risk of thread drift, why does most of Oz have Class E between FL180 and FL245?

Do many aircraft fly VFR at these levels?

[Capn Bloggs]

Derfred, you are a very very very naughty boy! :E

[atcnews]

Rather than debating the current airspace structure, why not debate the new structure from May 2019? I'm too new to post a link but search for Airservices airspace modernisation.

[Capn Bloggs]

Airservices airspace modernisation
Feedback finishes in 2 1/2 weeks. I must have missed that email... Good one!

[malroy]

Airservices - Airspace modernisation (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projects/airspace-modernisation/)
Link for those looking.

[Skepticemia]

To others, I think Atlas Shrugged means he does not want to see G upgraded to E anywhere.

Even though it would maximise the advantages of ADSB.

Incredible!

More Class E is the wrong solution to a problem noone has.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Are there that many VFR pilots needing to access between FL180 and FL245 that that becomes a selling point?

[A Squared]

At the present time in Australia pilots on an IFR flight plan cannot enter Class E without a clearance - even in VMC.

In the USA, most pilots on an IFR flight plan take off and climb through E without a clearance to 17,500 feet when VMC exists, which means they are not holding at low levels where traffic density is greater.

Just a point of order. I would say most IFR flights in the US pick up their clearance on the ground. If they are departing from one of the 500+ airports with a control tower they'll get the clearance from ground control or clearance delivery. If they are departing from an uncontrolled airport there are ways to get the clearance over the phone or through a remote communications outlet. If they do depart VFR they'll contact ATC shortly after leaving the traffic pattern Certainly well before 17 thousand.



I missed this earlier. MarkerInbound is correct, it is simply not true in the US that "...most pilots on an IFR flight plan" depart without clearance and climb to 17,500 before picking up a clearance. It is true that this is a perfectly legal option, if the weather permits. But it is not, by any stretch of the imagination what "most" do. To begin with, most part 121 airlines in the US are not permitted to to this. I fly for a 121 airline which operates in remote areas. Because of the nature of our operations, and the fact that we are a cargo only airline, we have approval to depart VFR, and pick up an IFR clearance when airborne. Among US Part 121 airlines that is the exception rather than the rule. Outside the airline world, it is still not true to say that "most" operate this way. The vast majority of pilots on a flight where they will be climbing above 17,500 and getting an IFR clearance will be requesting the clearance as soon as practical. There are very few places in the US where you won't be in radar coverage and within VHF radio communications with ATC well below 17,500. If that is true, and it is, even in Alaska, why wouldn't you pick up your IFR clearance sooner rather than later, and begin receiving separation from other IFR traffic, and advisories for VFR traffic? The vast majority, of course, will do exactly that, including those who have departed an uncontrolled airport under VFR, due to unavailability of an IFR clearance for whatever reason. Yes, in the US it is legal to depart VFR when the weather is VMC. Yes, it is legal to continue climbing to 17,500 before getting an IFR clearance, if VFR weather persists that high. It is patently absurd to claim, as Dick has done that "most" IFR flights are operated this way.

[A Squared]

Are there that many VFR pilots needing to access between FL180 and FL245 that that becomes a selling point?

I don't know. But if positive control airspace begins at FL180, then "nobody flies VFR above 180" becomes a self fulfilling prophesy, doesn't it?

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Naturally, however Airservices regard it as particularly important in the J curve. Is it? Are there so many VFR batting against the FL180 ceiling that they are blocking the sun?
One proposed change under this program is to standardise the application and management of Class A and E airspace, which will allow Visual Flight Rules (VFR) aircraft to utilise more airspace previously not available to them. This is particularly important for the east coast of Australia between Brisbane and Adelaide (widely known as the “J curve”).

[zanthrus]

IFR in VMC at 8500AMSL. Dude ! look out the f#cken window! Don't hit anything! Sweet as bro...not that frickin hard is it?