Asiana ICN-ORD pax fatality w/ no divert, inflicting 10 hrs trauma economy section

[Dog Star]

Dear All,

2 or 3 hours after departure from Seoul Incheon Airport a passenger showed signs of medical distress and subsequently passed away. Where would enroute alternate have been at that point? Narita, Cold Harbor, Anchorage? Wouldn't RFF at enroute diversion airfields been better suited to handle this passengers medical needs? And what about medlink satellite communication? The flight continued for another 10 hours with the deceased.

[Newsmaker] Passenger dies of heart attack onboard Asiana Airlines (http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20181017000515&ACE_SEARCH=1)

For our Korean readers sourced from Yonhap News Agency

인천發 시카고行 아시아나항공 기내서 70대 심장마비死
출처 : 연합뉴스 네이버 뉴스
https://news.naver.com/main/read.nhn?mode=LSD&mid=sec&oid=001&aid=0010405537&sid1=001

[Deepinsider]

Not enough information.

2 or 3 hours? How long actually?
showed signs? when, what?
subsequently passed away when?
what about medlink (you tell us, but you weren't there were you?)

Chances are, a highly professional combination of crew on board,
ground medical advice, quite possibly helped by medical professional(s)
who are so often available on board, and other factors (the late pax was from
ORD...etc) led to the decision to continue.
Quite probably a decision was properly made that the 300 pax to ORD
and the 300 pax back to ICN did not need to be disrupted by offloading
a deceased pax at an inappropriate (for her/him) location.
I'm familiar with this kind of event, and the dynamic completely changes
if the patient does unfortunately pass away. Difficult feelings for pax in
the immediate vicinity have to be balanced against the 600 others
involved. I have a strong feeling that 10 hrs trauma for an economy
section would not have been quite like you make it sound, especially
if compared to making an unnecessary divert to a place not beneficial
to the patient

[suninmyeyes]

I agree with DeepInsider. It is not a sensible commercial decision to divert to offload a deceased passenger and can lead to the crew going out of hours and logistical nightmares with hotels. It also then leads to significant extra problems for relatives of the deceased offloaded passenger to get the body from some remote outstation to the place of burial which can be very expensive. So noone really benefits from the diversion.

[FIRESYSOK]

An out-of-hospital heart attack is statistically not survivable. It depends on many factors of course, but being literally hours away from the neatest emergency room (of varying capability) does not bode well. It’s a risk every single passenger assumes when boarding a flight, long haul or not.

Taking a fully-laden widebody into an enroute alternate airport is not without elevated risk for everyone else on board. Some of you wouldn’t make good commanders with your emotion-driven responses. A physician on board and medical advice via satcom would have been taken into account during the decision process. It’s not about costs, but rather, managing risk.

[DaveReidUK]

Wouldn't RFF at enroute diversion airfields been better suited to handle this passengers medical needs?

Without wishing to belittle the situation, nor the impact on other passengers, a pax who has been confirmed dead has no further "medical needs".

[Less Hair]

With all respect if he is dead the plane can and should go on to the destination. It's not unheard of that people travel unfit to fly and die on planes.

[golfbananajam]

To have been confirmed dead during the flight would, i assume, require a properly qualified doctor who, again i assume, must have been on board. While I understand the operational considerations, I'm not sure I'd want to spend 10 hours in a confined space with a dead body.

[Less Hair]

Would you want to land in the middle of nowhere with a dead body? It's not about saving a life anymore. BTW: He will continue on your flight just a level below you.
Block a lav so noboy needs to sit next to him for hours.

[Ancient Mariner]

I have no problem whatsoevet with the fact that they continued to their destination with the deceased on board, nor would I have had any problem being a passenger on that flight.
I am however mildly curious about the need to point out, highly professional combination of crew I expect that every time I board a commercial airliner.
Per

[cappt]

Would you want to land in the middle of nowhere with a dead body? It's not about saving a life anymore. BTW: He will continue on your flight just a level below you.
Block a lav so nobody needs to sit next to him for hours.
What? Are you suggesting propping him up and sitting him on the loo? There is just no good place on an airliner to deal with this unfortunate situation. The decision to divert should have been made at first sign of distress, Japan, Russia, China all have good facilities for these diverts. I wouldn't want to put my decision to continue ten more hours into the hands of someone on board who claims to be a doctor.

[SeenItAll]

Did any of you read the news article provided. [Newsmaker] Passenger dies of heart attack onboard Asiana Airlines (http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20181017000515&ACE_SEARCH=1) This is what it said:

"The captain reported a medical emergency on board after the man, 76, experienced heart attack symptoms and collapsed. Flight attendants made an announcement and found a physician, who performed CPR in an attempt to save the sick man, but he was pronounced dead."

So out over the Bering Sea you want a likely over-weight widebody to divert to Cold Bay (or perhaps to Anchorage 2-3 hours further distant) in order to off-load a corpse?

Instead, I hear drivel like divert to Russia or backtrack to Manchuria where they "have good facilities for these diverts." Do tell what they are? Why would you assume that if the flight crew thought there was a reasonable chance (or any chance) of saving this person's life that they did not follow it? Or impugn there identity of the person who attended to the man by stating that he just "claims to be a doctor." If the choice is between receiving immediate attention from someone who claims to be (or actually is) a physician on an airplane versus taking a 2-hour diversion to an ER in Kamchatka, I know which I would choose.

[Airbubba]

I agree with DeepInsider. It is not a sensible commercial decision to divert to offload a deceased passenger and can lead to the crew going out of hours and logistical nightmares with hotels. It also then leads to significant extra problems for relatives of the deceased offloaded passenger to get the body from some remote outstation to the place of burial which can be very expensive. So noone really benefits from the diversion.

Aside from the expense, there are significant legal consequences to the person's estate if they are declared dead in a remote location. And some local coroners will impound the plane for a quarantine period as happened with a fatality on descent into Portugal. Fortunately, I've never had a death onboard as an operating crewmember, I have had it happen years ago as a passenger on a company ticket though.

I've always been trained not to say in company communications that someone has died in flight, rather say they are unresponsive and not breathing. Also, if possible, avoid a declaration of death until after landing to avoid questions of jurisdiction.

If the flight was OZ236 on October 11, it was a B-772 on the 'P' route, A590 over the NOPAC. Diverting overweight to UHPP to offload a deceased pax would not be my choice.

[JW411]

It is also better to have them officially declared dead when on the jetway after landing. Saves a huge amount of paperwork and the aircraft doesn't get impounded. Before you ask, it has indeed happened to me.

[meleagertoo]

If the patient has died any need to divert ends. It would be daft to divert to disembark a corpse, why would anyone even consider that?

"Trauma" suffered by other pax? People don't suffer trauma because a stranger nearby's snuffed it. They'll certainly get mighty aerated if they end up in Nuuq or Goose or Assend of Nowhere unnecessarily with an out of hours crew and a 20hr delay though.

I'm not sure I'd want to spend 10 hours in a confined space with a dead body

Why not? They don't smell any worse than you. They aren't contagious. They aren't a threat to anyone. What's the problem? They're no more offensive than someone who's asleep for Heaven's sake. At least they don't snore.

What a fuss about nothing.

[Hotel Tango]

I will simply say that as a frequent passenger I personally find that the decision made was without question the correct one and I am yet again astounded by the drivel spewed out by posters who simply have not checked the facts!

[megan]

And some pax are witless. Work colleague had heart issues and doctor advised not to travel overseas. He went anyway, to the US, had medical issue there and decided to return to Oz because of the medical financial implications inherent in staying in the US. Didn't make it, died enroute. Nice guy too, but made poor choices after being given good advice. This thread comes on top of the lass who died from an asthma attack while on board and some posters were giving the crew a hiding over their actions. You and I were not there, give the crews a break, they do their best in trying circumstances, in the two cases I cite, the pax knew they had problems prior to boarding, how about a little responsibility there? Perhaps airlines should be giving pax a full medical prior to boarding - just kidding.

[beamender99]

I wouldn't want to put my decision to continue ten more hours into the hands of someone on board who claims to be a doctor.

".....impugn the identity of the person who attended to the man by stating that he just "claims to be a doctor."

Every time a doctor has been requested on any flight I have been it was always a call for "A medical doctor" I guess to deter PhD individuals from volunteering.
My daughter is a UK hospital "consultant" and previously as a hospital doctor has volunteered when on board.
She has her UK General Medical Council ( GMC) Registration Number and other forms of ID so she can be easily checked out with a call to the ground.

[stilton]

At my US based major airline we have a
policy against and will not declare anyone
deceased in flight


Doctors onboard will be solicited, all assistance used and co ordination with
Med Link will help in making the divert decision but this scenario ‘he’s dead so
we might as well continue’ would not be
acceptable

[krismiler]

That's the US where fear of a lawsuit overrides everything else. The patient had been pronounced dead by a physician, had the doctor advised the Captain to divert but the flight continued and the patient died a few hours later it would be a whole different matter.

Some long haul aircraft even have a special storage area for a body in the event that someone dies in flight.

[Airbubba]

Doctors onboard will be solicited, all assistance used and co ordination withMed Link will help in making the divert decision but this scenario ‘he’s dead so
we might as well continue’ would not be
acceptable

Not sure I understand what you are saying. Would your airline divert to say, Petro (UHPP) to have the local official declare the pax deceased? Would you risk having the plane impounded pending a death investigation? Would you offload the body in Kamchatka? Or have it transferred to the cargo hold after necessary paperwork and formalities were accomplished?

But it is indeed the Catch 22 that you can't say the passenger is dead so you can't say that further assistance will not be rendered even if you know that it would be futile.

ANC has a gas and go service for offloading rowdy trans-pac pax with an on call magistrate and FBI agent to process them into federal custody. Unfortunately, many perps seem to be on the catch and release program but at least they run up a tab to discourage future misbehavior. Perhaps the Anchorage folks could process a death with a quick stop as well but at that point why not press on to ORD as OZ did?

[parabellum]

Most long haul aircraft carry a body bag or two and should a pax die en route then it would be quite normal to place them, in the bag, in a toilet and lock the door so that other pax can't use it.
Every thing else relevant has been mentioned already, especially the risk of an unscheduled landing in a foreign country with a dead person on board.

If you land in the UK with a dead passenger on board then everyone has to remain on board until a doctor confirms that no foul play is suspected, police will attend and stand by any open doors until the aircraft is cleared.

[Airbubba]

Some long haul aircraft even have a special storage area for a body in the event that someone dies in flight.

Here's a news story on that ultra long haul aircraft feature:

Airline's new fleet includes a cupboard for corpsesAndrew Clark (https://www.theguardian.com/profile/andrewclark), transport correspondent
Mon 10 May 2004 20.48 EDTIt is always inconvenient when a passenger dies on an aeroplane - not least for the person sitting in the next seat. So Singapore (https://www.theguardian.com/world/singapore) Airlines has attempted to take the trauma out of such tragedies by introducing a special cupboard to store any unexpected corpse.

The airline's new fleet of Airbus A340-500 aircraft boasts a discreet locker next to one of the plane's exit doors which is long enough to store an average-sized body, with special straps to prevent any movement during a bumpy landing.

Cabin crew have been instructed to use the locker in the event of a death on a long-haul flight - particularly if the aircraft is busy, with no free seats on which to lay out the deceased. The aircraft came into use in February, operating the longest non-stop route in the world: a 17-hour, 7,900-mile journey between Singapore and Los Angeles.

The length of the flight has forced Singapore Airlines to think carefully about its handling of any medical emergencies - particularly because the route spans the Pacific Ocean, with little opportunity for an unscheduled landing.

An airline spokeswoman said: "On the rare occasion when a passenger passes away during a flight the crew do all that is possible to manage the situation with sensitivity and respect.

"Unfortunately given the space constraints in an aircraft cabin, it is not always possible to find a row of seats where the deceased passenger can be placed and covered in a dignified manner, although this is always the preferred option.

"The compartment will be used only if no suitable space can be found elsewhere in the cabin."

The airline intends to begin a second route next month using the same long-range aircraft - the flight between Singapore and New York will skirt the north pole, offering equally little scope for diversion.

Richard Maslen, the assistant editor of Airliner World magazine, said the compartment was an interesting feature of the new aircraft, which seats 180 people.

"As far as I'm aware, this is not something that's been thought of in other aircraft designs in the past," he said.

"Obviously, these things do unfortunately happen in the air and it's good to see that they have been thought about in advance."


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2004/may/11/theairlineindustry.travelnews

[mrdeux]

I have had three passengers die on my flights. On one flight, there was no reasonable alternate, and he died before landing at destination. In the other two cases, we initiated diversions, but were able to turn back to our planned destination, once the passenger’s death was confirmed.

Landing because someone had died, simply makes no sense. It’s not as if they’re going to bring him back to life.

[short bus]

Off loading the remains at a random location would likely result in significant additional expenses for the family.
Funeral homes will charge a not insignificant amount to pick up the remains from the airport and and will again bill for return delivery to the airport. They would also charge a storage fee since they are not contracted to handle the entire process. An air shipping container would have to be purchased in addition to paying the cargo charges. I wouldn't be surprised if diverting would cost the family an additional $2k or more.

[The Fat Controller]

I entirely agree with the decision to continue.

As @Airbubba noted, Singapore had the locker as an option and I was on duty when it was used, a Singaporean national had passed away and on contacting Scottish Control at 10W they advised us that they were taking him home to Singapore.

Just imagine the expense and inconvenience to everyone of diverting just to offload the deceased.

[DaveReidUK]

As @Airbubba noted, Singapore had the locker as an option

Though AFAIK the "corpse locker" that equipped the A340-500s used un SIN/LAX isn't replicated on the A350s that operate SIA's newly-restarted, even longer SIN/EWR route. Can anyone confirm?

[Ollie Onion]

We had a situation like this, had a pax die around 2 hours into a 10hour flight, the death was confirmed by a Medical Dr who was onboard and the appropriate paperwork was signed. Yes we could have turned back and offloaded the body but it would have been cruel to do so, you see this person now deceased also had family members onboard who were all resident in the port of destination not departure. How cruel would it be if we had diverted and returned to offload the body and then we would have had to offload the family as they would presumably want to be with their loved one. Then they are in a foreign place with a dead relative having to figure out what the hell to do next. We continued and yes some other pax complained but hey, toughen the hell up, what was important her pe was he needs of the family concerned, we placed them in a couple of rows by themselves (business class) with the deceased and moved the miffed business pax back into economy. To this day I know it was the right call, some went to local media with the usual crap but was very pleased when the Widow came out and said how grateful she was for our compassion and consultation with them in making our decision.

[Less Hair]

People have been dying onboard aircraft for ages. That locker thing while mostly used as crew carry on vault gave them to much unwanted attention.
Bodies can be stored in locked lavs and behind curtains like they always were if the need should arise.

[draglift]

Pprune is unique in that it was designed as a forum for professional pilots but is now open for anyone to come on and express their opinion. You would never find an open forum for professional surgeons where people with no medical experience or training could post their criticisms of surgeons and they how they could do it better.

There are some situations where frankly it is best that passengers did not know what is happening, ie dispatching with technical difficulties, reroutes resulting in minimum fuel, commiting to a destination airfield without fuel to divert. Professional issues where there are rules and standard procedures may sometimes come as a surprise to what a passenger might expect. This is thread is typical where someone has described a situation thinking it is unusual and may have been badly handled when it is actually quite common and has probably been properly handled. Some of the initial posters clearly think a diversion was merited and expressed outrage that it did not happen. A lot of professional pilots no longer read this forum due to the drivel frequently expressed by emotive people who may be very competent in the field they work in but do not understand a lot of the basics of running an airline.

[Buswinker]

I know I say this every time but if I crap on long enough maybe eventually someone will hear what I’m saying

heart attack =/= cardiac arrest

out of hospital heart attack- eminently survivable
out of hospital cardiac arrest- less so (5-10% tops depending on the measure of survival used)

Heart Attack or Sudden Cardiac Arrest: How Are They Different? | American Heart Association (http://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/heart-attack/about-heart-attacks/heart-attack-or-sudden-cardiac-arrest-how-are-they-different)

[AlexGG]

Pprune is unique in that it was designed as a forum for professional pilots but is now open for anyone to come on and express their opinion.
...
Professional issues where there are rules and standard procedures may sometimes come as a surprise to what a passenger might expect. This is thread is typical where someone has described a situation thinking it is unusual and may have been badly handled when it is actually quite common and has probably been properly handled.
...
Some of the initial posters clearly think a diversion was merited and expressed outrage that it did not happen.


There is some significant number of people, like me, who came wondering, like, well, how it is handled? how is it supposed to be handled? Before long, I got reasonably clear and reasonably complete explanation, what the procedures are, what the rationales are, with some bonus real-life stories. I also have the ability to ask further (which I do not need in this specific case) and get a good answer. This is certainly very good for those who mostly read and rarely post, and may be good for people experiencing outrage in the starting post(s) (if they are still here reading).

Pprune is great to correct my understanding of aviation, basically, and I'm certain it works the same for many others.

[oldbalboy]

Most long haul aircraft carry a body bag or two and should a pax die en route then it would be quite normal to place them, in the bag, in a toilet and lock the door so that other pax can't use it.
Every thing else relevant has been mentioned already, especially the risk of an unscheduled landing in a foreign country with a dead person on board.

If you land in the UK with a dead passenger on board then everyone has to remain on board until a doctor confirms that no foul play is suspected, police will attend and stand by any open doors until the aircraft is cleared.

Having landed a dead body into the UK I need to correct you, most airlines do NOT carry body bags, when we landed the passengers waited about 2 minutes before they could de plane a paramedic boarded along with a police officer, the former confirmed NO suspicious circumstances & passengers were allowed to disembark.

[oldbalboy]

Would you want to land in the middle of nowhere with a dead body? It's not about saving a life anymore. BTW: He will continue on your flight just a level below you.
Block a lav so noboy needs to sit next to him for hours.

Simple question would YOU want a loved one of yours who had passed away put into a public toilet ??? think the answer is NO .

[Less Hair]

There are not many private places onboard an aircraft. An aisle floorspace with a curtain or some lav are the most sensible I'd say. It's not like people get thrown around or handled without respect. Death is natural and happening all the time anywhere. People just try to do their best.

[oldbalboy]

There are not many private places onboard an aircraft. An aisle floorspace with a curtain or some lav are the most sensible I'd say. It's not like people get thrown around or handled without respect. Death is natural and happening all the time anywhere. People just try to do their best.

Lav's are a no no for my airline as very hard sometimes to then get the deceased out ( a passenger was found dead in one in 90's from an OD, took several hours to get body out , lavatory had to be dismantled!) also you should try moving a dead (weight) body within the confines of an aeroplane nigh on impossible, we just try & make it secure & out of sight of others, but there is no perfect solution as every DoB is different., we just try & show some compassion & respect for the deceased & any travelling companions.

[AviatorDave]

If the patient has died any need to divert ends. It would be daft to divert to disembark a corpse, why would anyone even consider that?

"Trauma" suffered by other pax? People don't suffer trauma because a stranger nearby's snuffed it. They'll certainly get mighty aerated if they end up in Nuuq or Goose or Assend of Nowhere unnecessarily with an out of hours crew and a 20hr delay though.



Why not? They don't smell any worse than you. They aren't contagious. They aren't a threat to anyone. What's the problem? They're no more offensive than someone who's asleep for Heaven's sake. At least they don't snore.

What a fuss about nothing.

I am with you and those who take a pragmatic approach to the matter at hand. Obviously, this is a situation which makes feelings prevail over rational thinking with many people.

[A Squared]

Why not? They don't smell any worse than you.

Actually, there's a good chance that they might.

[Sailvi767]

The policy at my airline is no one dies in flight. The death has to be confirmed on the ground. We divert if someone passes away. I have never heard of a airline carrying body bags. If you place a body in a lav and rigor sets in you won’t get the body out. There is also the issue of if they are really dead. Mistakes are made in that regard at hospitals with proper equipment. It’s far more likely on a aircraft.

[IBMJunkman]

2 things

As I understand it the bowels evacuate upon death. I suppose depending on their contents.

By the time the flight landed rigor would have occurred. I would assume the body would need to be in a supine position to allow easy removal at landing.

[swh]

The policy at my airline is no one dies in flight. The death has to be confirmed on the ground. We divert if someone passes away. I have never heard of a airline carrying body bags. If you place a body in a lav and rigor sets in you won’t get the body out. There is also the issue of if they are really dead. Mistakes are made in that regard at hospitals with proper equipment. It’s far more likely on a aircraft.

Similar where I work, medlink will be consulted. Medlink do not recommend a diversion for an apparent death at any time. We will have an ambulance on arrival and the passenger will be transported to hospital.

While we do not carry body bags we carry something that resembles a zip up sleeping bag with handles that comes up to the armpits that can contain any fluids. A passenger can be placed into this while on the floor easily enough and allowes the cabin crew to safety handle the passenger. The passenger is placed back in a normal seat with a seat belt on. They are not covered up.

This is kept with other protective equipment like gloves, masks, aprons that are used to clean up and store blood, vomit etc.

[parabellum]

A lot of professional pilots no longer read this forum due to the drivel frequently expressed by emotive people who may be very competent in the field they work in but do not understand a lot of the basics of running an airline.

or may be, if they do their homework properly and don't spend too much time on FlightSim, they will when they leave school.;)

OLDBALBOY - think you may have been fortunate with your experience of DoB, I have brought several pax from the Middle East into LHR, hoping to get to a London specialist but left it too late, police and an MD every time, delay usually less than ten minutes. Body bags on board? Obviously an airlines choice, two of the majors I flew for did.

My experience only but bodies placed in a toilet, in a sitting position, on the floor, can be removed and taken off in a wheel chair, (the type designed for use within the aircraft), when all other pax are off.

[golfyankeesierra]

I think there is a big difference between a long haul and a continental (US/EUR) flight, where you can be on the ground before you even had the time to consult a ground based service.
Had a person pass away on a long haul, initiated diversion but in the time before TOD already consulted 2 doctors on board and one on the ground. We continued to destination where it took more then half an hour before the aircraft was cleared and the first passengers were allowed to deplane, while the corpse remained on board. It looked like a crime scene out of a movie, including loads of police and a fully zipped up coroner.
What really is an issue that it made quite an impact on the crew and I wonder whether I would really have wanted to continue to our destination if it had been an enroute diversion.
(we also have a body bag btw)

[RoyHudd]

A diversion would have been idiocy, for many of the reasons given above. The thinking in favour of a diversion is largely nonsensical, (emotional, but impractical in this case) although doubtless the pilots would have considered all options before making their decision.

[Bull at a Gate]

BA flight LHR to SIN on a 747. Passenger died as we were taking off. He was carried to seat 1A and his grieving widow was moved to 1K. I was in 3A and Mrs Bull was in 4A having been upgraded from club class. We then flew for 12 hours with the cabin being comfortably warm. While I could understand the decision to continue to our destination, it was not a pleasant introduction to travel at the front of the plane. To their credit BA offered Mrs Bull and me 2 free return first class flights to anywhere we wanted to go, which was jolly nice of them as we hadn’t even paid for first class seats in the first place.

[Sound Engineer]

It doesn't necessarily require a medical professional to determine death.

It's been a while since I was crew, but as I recall, if you were performing CPR on an adult and there had been no response for 30 minutes (physically noticeable, or detected by the defibrillator) then you could make the decision to stop as death was evident.

If it was a child it was a bit different as you'd carry on CPR regardless (no matter what a travelling medical professional said) until handing over to ground medical services)

[Pilot DAR]

If you, trained in CPR, have determined that beginning CPR is appropriate, you have not been able to detect signs of life in the patient (otherwise, you would not have started CPR). CPR training will have taught you how long to continue CPR in the absence of signs of life. A person trained in CPR, who determines that CPR should not be continued has not made a declaration of death, that's a different qualification, but it would seem that the patient, now victim, would then be in that place between no signs of life for too long, and legal death. As said, children are different, don't give up until the people at hospital take over from you.

[Three Lima Charlie]

I recall an old Braniff B-747 Captain that died enroute Honolulu to DFW while somewhere over LAX. They did not divert, but continued on to destination so as not to cause many problems for the passengers, crew and the airline. Body was held in the cockpit and his wife, who was an F/A on the flight, was not told until they landed.

[rigpiggy]

Did the F/O log it as PIC. I assisted a gentleman a while back. None of the F/A's would do CPR, Done to the beat of the BeeGees "staying Alive. He made it to the hospital, but not through the night

[costalpilot]

so, Captain X lands with a formerly living passenger on board in Memphis way back in the day. The airport medics arrive but will not off load the load because they say they need the county coroner or someone from his office to show up and declare the dead weight offcially dead. Now this was before the airlines discovered the need to change planes (for the crews) at every hub stop, so Captain X and his crew 's next leg was in the aircraft that now had to wait till the local coroner showed up. At that point Captain X is reported to have made this argument:
you say no one is competent in this city to declare this person dead other than the coroner? Yes, he is told.

WEll then, since YOU dont know if this person is dead or alive, I suggest you get it to the nearest hospital ASAP.

thats was the story as it was told.

[Deepinsider]

Simple question would YOU want a loved one of yours who had passed away put into a public toilet ??? think the answer is NO .

So what is it that you recommend then?

We are in a confined space airliner in the middle of nowhere,
one might say. Landing somewhere in Eastern China or
Russia is pretty well the middle of nowhere, especially if the
passenger came from ORD, or the US.(we don't know yet)
and just what conditions of storage and dignity would you
suspect might be afforded there? , together with the repatriation
drama that may unfold.
My loved ones, like me, would just want to go home !!
Discuss with crew you may encounter, what happens because
there is immense effort on board to respect the privacy and
dignity of the passed away passenger. (How could you imagine
any crew thinking otherwise?) Your casual talk; 'public toilet'
strongly insults the sincere efforts of the responsible crew.

I ask again, what would you recommend?

[LindbergB767]

At my US based major airline we have a
policy against and will not declare anyone
deceased in flight


Doctors onboard will be solicited, all assistance used and co ordination with
Med Link will help in making the divert decision but this scenario ‘he’s dead so
we might as well continue’ would not be
acceptable
It did happen to me while I was Captain on DC8 on a flight from UK to Montreal. Medical Doctor confirmed she was gone. We had no spare seat. I told to the cabin in charge to put an oxygen mask on her and just continue the fligh, so the pax around her would thing she was sleeping.. Police came on board as well another medical doctor to make sure she died naturally, then the pax were able to deplane.

[Needle Knocker]

Is a crew rest area ever an option for a deceased passenger?

[nicolai]

If the crew couldn't rest you'd have problems with flight duty regulations, and then you might have to divert to the arse end of Siberia anyway. Not a winning situation.

[tomdotcom]

Talking as a passenger, I dont think and hour would present much of a problem, but to sit beside a dead body for 10 hours would freak my wife out for sure, and she would not be comfortable climbing over them each time she wanted to go to the toilet. Not an expert, but how long does it take rigor mortis to set in. I appreciate unless a doctor is present to certify death then there might be a view to presume the person could be still alive but be in a coma or unconscious, but if rigor motis has set in, that shoud be a serious clue. I can appreciate the points about diverting, but surely in a large wide bodied aircraft on the long haul flights, there must be a corner somewhere they could stash a body?

[Sailvi767]

I recall an old Braniff B-747 Captain that died enroute Honolulu to DFW while somewhere over LAX. They did not divert, but continued on to destination so as not to cause many problems for the passengers, crew and the airline. Body was held in the cockpit and his wife, who was an F/A on the flight, was not told until they landed.

I tend to doubt this story for two reasons. One if they did not land at the nearest suitable airport the FAA would have crucified the other pilots. Two there would have been obvious activity in and around the cockpit. The wife would have been calling the husband for a explanation. Even if she noticed nothing she would have called him and or visited the cockpit at some point.

[Needle Knocker]

If the crew couldn't rest you'd have problems with flight duty regulations, and then you might have to divert to the arse end of Siberia anyway. Not a winning situation.

There are usually multiple crew rest beds/"personal spaces"; in such an exceptional case as a passenger dying I really can't see how it would be anything other than a trivial matter for a couple of crew to share one of the other spaces in that circumstance - or for a crew member to relax in the deceased passenger's seat for that matter.

[innuendo]

Sailvi767, the event did happen and his wife was on board. I believe she was working the flight.

From FAA History site, last sentence in this extract.


Saturday, December 29, 1979:Enacted on this date, Public Law 96-171 required the National Institutes of Health to produce a study of FAA’s Age-60 rule (see March 15, 1960) in consultation with DOT. Within one year, NIH was to submit to Congress a study examining questions that included “whether an age limitation which prohibits all individuals who are sixty years of age or older from serving as pilots is medically warranted.”
The issue had come to a head because more airline pilots were reaching 60 than ever before, a trend that was expected to increase. The Pilots Rights Association, a group of some 300 older airline pilots, had waged a strong campaign against the rule. The Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) was divided on the question, with many members (especially younger ones) favoring the rule. (Later, ALPA’s board endorsed the Age-60 rule in a November 1980 vote that reversed the union’s longstanding position on the issue.) Another factor that may have influenced the congressional debate was a fatal in-flight heart attack suffered by a 59-year-old Braniff captain on March 13, 1979. The outcome was a legislative mandate for a study rather than a change in the rule.

[garpal gumnut]

On an Air NZ flight about to take off. Aborted.
Asked for a doctor.
Moi.
An elderly diabetic Italian gentleman with no English and chest pain insisted on continuing the flight, as did all his eight relatives.
Probably had their reasons.
I insisted on his offload.
Took 1.5 hrs to get going again but he survived and I got a free BC flight next time on Air NZ.

[racedo]

If a relatve of mine died on a flight then where their body was stored for duration of flight is to me irrelevant.

What is relevant is whether they had "treated the body with dignity and respect" since their demise, my expectation of CC would that in
99.9% of cases that would be the case.

In relation to moving the body then if FC is available then moving the body into a seat up there would be best case scenario, at least even
in jest family could say that his last flight was in 1st class.

Diverting while already dead is pointless as wouldn't want to try an get a body back from Vladivostock to Uk just because they needed to
drop off the body.

Would also have no issue sitting next to a dead body........................ assumming they had expired due to Heart attack etc and not Ebola
or likely to reanimate like in The Waking Dead.

[Less Hair]

Final upgrade to first? There is the point of the other passenger's needs. Most would not feel comfortable sitting next to some dead person for hours, even with some double dessert.

[MATELO]

From some of the rank smelling, foul mouthed, contemptible people I have had the misfortune to be along side on some flights, I would welcome sitting next to a corpse.

[WillowRun 6-3]

Well, the thread certainly provides confirmation and validity to a decision a friend made, after experiencing -- and surviving (surprisingly) -- a dissection of the aorta. He's stayed off airline flights entirely, despite being in better shape now after some minor-medical-miracle repair surgeries. Something about not wanting to have to convince crew to divert in case he might experience another similar medical peril; rather kick the bucket side of the highway waiting for EMTs than kiss-it-goodbye up in the sky.

[Diane Airbus]

I got curious about the Braniff captain story and found an NTSB incident report number: FTW79IA063. It's a short report which confirms the basics, that the captain suffered a heart attack.

You can find it with the at the NTSB query page with the incident number above or with N601BN in the registration field.

The story that the captain's wife was a member of the captain crew has been circulating online for over 10 years; there's a post on airliners dot net that refers to the incident report. There's a news article (Louisville KY Courier-Journal, 18 March 1979; via a wire service and apparently originally written for a Dallas paper) that seems to corroborate that part of the story; it has names of the the crew, responding physicians, etc. The actual page as it appeared in print is pay to read but below the image there's a link you can click to see the machine-read text. It's a little out of order and includes text from advertisements, but you can get the gist. If you search for "braniff stockstill 1979" the article should be high in the results.

Of moderate interest (IMO) from the article: "... [a situation] experts once predicted would occur three times a year on American air carriers[,] the death of a critical member of the flight crew. It was a prospect so grim that government agencies and the airlines constructed a series of safeguards that, through effectiveness or sheer luck, has prevented a commercial airline disaster as a result of crew death."

Apologies if this is too much topic drift. Also apologies for not including links; they were there but I had to remove them as I haven't posted before to give the software here a reason to think I'm not a spambot.