13th Month

[controlledrest]

Last year 13th Month was withheld from the Captains. This was a straight kick in the nuts. It wasn't about the money, it was designed to really piss off the most expensive pilots, hoping to push up the resignation rate. With POS18 the cost reduction with senior pilots being replaced with new ones is even greater, so don't expect 13th month this year. Especially as there was no obvious push back.

The master plan is reduce costs to below those of HKA. The management don't have the skills to provide a product pax will pay a premium for. It's all about cost cutting.

Last year I recovered the lost 13th month with sickness and line flying decisions (want to spend USD500? Pull full reverse).

What's your plan?

[unitedabx]

Last year 13th Month was withheld from the Captains. This was a straight kick in the nuts. It wasn't about the money, it was designed to really piss off the most expensive pilots, hoping to push up the resignation rate. With POS18 the cost reduction with senior pilots being replaced with new ones is even greater, so don't expect 13th month this year. Especially as there was no obvious push back.

The master plan is reduce costs to below those of HKA. The management don't have the skills to provide a product pax will pay a premium for. It's all about cost cutting.

Last year I recovered the lost 13th month with sickness and line flying decisions (want to spend USD500? Pull full reverse).

What's your plan?

Salaries section has already confirmed NO 13th month this year for CX pilots. KA of course will get theirs.

[India Four Two]

The management don't have the skills to provide a product pax will pay a premium for.

So true. CX used to be my first choice, since my first flight in 1982, but I cannot remember the last time I flew CX. I fly trans-Pacific at least twice a year and even the seat-sale prices are not competitive with the competition.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Very simple payback strategy. At least another 31 days off unfit somewhere in the year, and the determined ability and resolve to cost the company 3-4 times as much in extra cost as they think they saved from stealing from myself and my family. Doubt it? Well, it's October and i've already exceeded that extra cost for the last years travesty. So go ahead punk, make my day...

[Apple Tree Yard]

I might also add that this year, another fail of the 13th month will be all the push needed for many pilots sitting on the fence regarding staying/leaving. The increased training costs alone will well outweigh any savings, never mind the increased sick leave and determined operational cost increases. Of course, the cubicle dwelling management never see the big picture, until it opens up and devours them as well. Penny wise...pound foolish. CX's motto.

[Farman Biplane]

I think I can already hear the silence from the HKAOA..............

[Gnadenburg]

Salaries section has already confirmed NO 13th month this year for CX pilots. KA of course will get theirs.

Don't be a mug.

Same sh&t coming, different contracts.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Action,...? I will take action. I'll happily take an additional month off with my family. Like I did this year.

[Sqwak7700]

The union is you. The response will be as severe as you are willing to make it.

Stop standing around waiting for others to tell you what to do. Everybody has the tools to impact the operation. So pick them up and use them.

Stop helping out. Let the pieces crumble instead of intervening to fix all their continual f-ups. Don’t suggest solutions to engineering. Don’t intervene when you see their plans heading straight to a cliff. Halt the operation if procedure is not followed. If everyone did this we would have an enforced 25% pay rise next week.

[main_dog]

Stop standing around waiting for others to tell you what to do. Everybody has the tools to impact the operation. So pick them up and use them.

Amen.

RETI, sickness, fuel loads, discretion etc. Plenty of tools.

[Babbalito]

Quote:
Stop standing around waiting for others to tell you what to do. Everybody has the tools to impact the operation. So pick them up and use them.
Amen.

RETI, sickness, fuel loads, discretion etc. Plenty of tools.

Basically a waste of time in achieving anything meaningful. If we are not prepared to strike, if only for one day, absolutely nothing will change for the better.

[golfbananajam]

wish I could get paid for 13 months in a year

welcome tot he real workd

[TurningFinalRWY36]

receiving an extra months pay at the end of the year is normal and expected in HK, receiving only 1 months extra pay is actually quite low, I know many professionals who receive a '13 month' payment that is many times greater than their normal monthly salary

[Liam Gallagher]

So nice of my Union to write to me today informing me that I have conceded nothing, not a "dollar". Who wrote this nonsense, the DFO?

The GC might be new, but they shouid know every Captain conceded 8% of their salary last year. The company has a stated aim of saving 10%. Couple the 13th month with the savings from every ARAPA receiver leaving and being replaced by a person locked on meagre, fixed HKPA, the company don't need any more concessions, they have achieved their 10%. All with my Union's (silent) blessing it would seem.

But it's not all bad news, they want me to vote on the DFO's peace proposal including a zero % payrise. Don't bother GC, I think Il'll vote myself a 1.25% pay rise long before the DFO officially starts to run the HKAOA.

Silly me, I thought the new GC would make a difference. Lots of brave words in their manifestos, but at the first challenge they have p!ssed their pants.

[reazasassain]

What Liam said.

[FUANNA]

Conceded nothing?

How about concessions made over the past few years?

No pay adjustments. No housing adjustments. Higher productivity. No profit sharing or 13 th month. Ever decreasing terms and conditions. Just to name a few.

Fake news and an utter disgrace.

[golfbananajam]

@dctpub

Glad you know everything about me, but then your location says it all, to me at least. I care not what people get paid, whether it's more than me or not, it's just not relevant to me.

Perhaps you missed the irony I was trying to point out that being paid for 13 months in a year that only has 12 is something the rest of the world would love, though many call it a bonus which has to be earned and is not a right. And before you ask, i don't get those either but that's not unusual either.

At the end of the day, you do still have the ultimate option, to find another job, just like the rest of us

[Near Miss]

[QUOTE=golfbananajam;10291228]@dctpub

Glad you know everything about me, but then your location says it all, to me at least. I care not what people get paid, whether it's more than me or not, it's just not relevant to me.
/QUOTE]

If you don't care, or it is not relevant to you, then why did you even comment?

[unitedabx]

@dctpub

Glad you know everything about me, but then your location says it all, to me at least. I care not what people get paid, whether it's more than me or not, it's just not relevant to me.

Perhaps you missed the irony I was trying to point out that being paid for 13 months in a year that only has 12 is something the rest of the world would love, though many call it a bonus which has to be earned and is not a right. And before you ask, i don't get those either but that's not unusual either.

At the end of the day, you do still have the ultimate option, to find another job, just like the rest of us

A 13th month is common in many countries. Spain, France, Portugal, Greece and most of SE Asia and China.

[kahaha]

Regards KA, there’s alot of chat every year about letting go of the KA COS based “ chinese new year bonus” ( fwiw 13th month) for an 8% pay adjustment .
KA crew would then revert to the discretion 13th month CX may ( or may not) receive.

Last years experience @CX and the forthcoming , as yet unannounced , bonus freez, should reaffirm the old adage that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Even a full bush .

[mngmt mole]

I just operated a KA flight number. That should lock in my 13th month. 👍

[bacou]

I just operated a KA flight number. That should lock in my 13th month. 👍
If you were wearing the pink Tie, I am sure it does !

[petrichor]

And no SHP reimbursement thanks to an AOA cock-up. Am really wondering why I bother paying my dues now??

[golfbananajam]

@unitedabx

Thanks, it's something that's new to me and I just found it a bit ironic

[kahaha]

If you were wearing the pink Tie, I am sure it does !

The KA Captains are certainly in the pink, I'll be picking up my 150k ++ on the 25th Jan.

Bacou, you are welcome to proudly wear your green brushstroke tie if that still makes you feel so special. :D

[Birddog1671]

13th month is calculated as such.

1 month = 4 weeks
12 months = 48 weeks
52 weeks in a year.

do the maths

[Starbear]

Its ok the 13th month is safe. No Penalty (probably)! (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/law-and-crime/article/2170107/hong-kong-privacy-chief-slams-cathay-pacific-taking)

[Scoreboard]

LOL i heard KA captains did extremely well last year with 13 month overtime etc....heard paychecks > 300k....but CX Captain.....no money for you again this year.....and no JCR....well done. Time to start packing or striking

[jetsam]

It's not just the bonus it's the extra PF contribution we lose. No one seems concerned about that but it is still our money. Even if they pay a full ex gratis payment, no PF contrib. related to that.
That's been the case for
last few times.

[Air Profit]

It's simple, if they pretend to pay me, i'll pretend to work. If the full 13th month isn't forthcoming, then my month off unfit will be. The scales will be balanced one way or the other...

[Krone]

It's simple, if they pretend to pay me, i'll pretend to work. If the full 13th month isn't forthcoming, then my month off unfit will be. The scales will be balanced one way or the other...

typical attitude. You still won’t get your bonus, wont earn any flt pay the month you are sick, and like CX give a sh1t if you take your sick leave or not.

You should stop typing and extoll the virtues of collaboration with your peers. Stop trying to create a mutiny from your keyboard. No one will follow. Well may be Trafalgar. But then he’s still in CX after 20 years right ? ��

[mngmt mole]

Krone, age 28 apparently. We'll bow to your superior intellect. In the meantime, i'll be doing exactly as AP, which is enjoy another month of my life away from toxic CX....and CX will give a :mad:.

[Dan Winterland]

Regards KA, there’s alot of chat every year about letting go of the KA COS based “ chinese new year bonus” ( fwiw 13th month) for an 8% pay adjustment .KA crew would then revert to the discretion 13th month CX may ( or may not) receive.

"May not" will be the norm, just as it is for CX now. KA will never give up the 13th month. Lessons have been learned from the AOA's mistakes.

[GTC58]

You guys know that the CX and KA Master seniority lists will be merged next year. Right? DS will be meeting with the company later this year to discuss details.

Wonder if the unions will merge to one as well.

[Gnadenburg]

typical attitude. You still won’t get your bonus, wont earn any flt pay the month you are sick, and like CX give a sh1t if you take your sick leave or not.

You should stop typing and extoll the virtues of collaboration with your peers. Stop trying to create a mutiny from your keyboard. No one will follow. Well may be Trafalgar. But then he’s still in CX after 20 years right ? ��






What's it to you Krone?

As soon as there's a whiff of industrial peace at CX, the blow-torch is coming your way. And keyboard warriors just like you from the CX side will flame divisiveness. So how about seeing the chessboard a few moves on and stop being a clown.

And do you really think an airline doesn't care about a high levels of absenteeism? Especially when tactical in nature which hurts the most in efficiency? Or an aggrieved career captain cares about losing a month of duty pay when they are probably finding some mental health respite from a toxic work environment?

[Avinthenews]

You guys know that the CX and KA Master seniority lists will be merged next year. Right? DS will be meeting with the company later this year to discuss details.

Wonder if the unions will merge to one as well.

Is the KA list in order of DOJ? Because the CX one isn't, it's a mess, in another genius stroke of divide and conquer by CX they had to get there dirty little fingers into it rather than standard practice of DOJ so any merger will no doubt lead to infighting and CX winning by the AOA having to negotiate with CX as a result.

[CCA]

Just create a single bloody list based on DOJ and tag each crew as CX or KA, you want transparency then DOJ it is, it's the backbone of a seniority system, then let the union's not the company come to a solution that's agreeable for the future, negotiating with the company only ends up in a reduction of terms. Perhaps then stuff like vacancy bidding can come to fruition without the seniority list screwing it up and again leading to negotiation with the company. Wrestling with a pig comes to mind.

[unitedabx]

Just create a single bloody list based on DOJ and tag each crew as CX or KA, you want transparency then DOJ it is, it's the backbone of a seniority system, then let the union's not the company come to a solution that's agreeable for the future, negotiating with the company only ends up in a reduction of terms. Perhaps then stuff like vacancy bidding can come to fruition without the seniority list screwing it up and again leading to negotiation with the company. Wrestling with a pig comes to mind.

DOJ would seem simple but the DFO wants to blend the two lists one for one. That is to say, number one in CX followed by number one in KA and so on. First used when BEA bought out Eastern in the UK in the 1960's this has been the default seniority merging method used repeatedly. In the USA this would be laughed at but we are not in the UK. How the canadian and US based pilots would fit in is the problem. The immediate advantage to any KA driver is that with only 1000 pilots and CX 3500 a KA pilot will always find him/herself in the top 2000 of a 4500 strong list. Win Win for KA.

[kahaha]

KA seniority is not DOJ , but date of licence issue.
Redundancy list is predicated on DOJ.
Just so we are all on the same page .
One day.

[unitedabx]

KA seniority is not DOJ , but date of licence issue.
Redundancy list is predicated on DOJ.
Just so we are all on the same page .
One day.

Sorry KA but your travel seniority is DOJ and that is how CX will manage the conversion of seniority lists. This also applies to cabin crew remember so licence dates are irrelevant.

[unitedabx]

KA seniority is not DOJ , but date of licence issue.
Redundancy list is predicated on DOJ.
Just so we are all on the same page .
One day.

You must also reaslise that any merger will be orchastratedby CX not KA. Your managers are just drawing their salaries. The real decisons are being made by CX management. God help us all.

[Avinthenews]

Perhaps a motion for both union's is needed to get each union's ducks in a row, each based on DOJ.

That way the ducks won't be put in order by management which no doubt will cause a major clusterf#@k.

[Krone]

And do you really think an airline doesn't care about a high levels of absenteeism?
Or an aggrieved career captain cares about losing a month of duty pay when they are probably finding some mental health respite from a toxic work environment?

Toxic work environment, its relative. KA is toxic, multi sector china, never any respite. Just think of that, the same old, same old, every single day of your career. No long Haul. No fleet change (well mini bus to ancient bus) hardly qualifies.

And now integration, of sorts. But that will keep KA Captains from jumping over the precipice. A350 course in 2020? Very nice

Gandeburga, I usually enjoy your intuitive posts , but this time you are all of a ramble old chap. The DB marina woes getting to you?

[LLLQNH]

Merging of KA & CX, it isn’t going to happen! The company have sought economies of scale to the maximum possible (shared facilities in cx city, duplicated positions elimated and transferred to CX, more to come) A large sum of money was spent on the rebranding of KA to align it with CX as closely as possible to strengthen the group brand and allow the synergies mentioned above without a merger, for the specifc reason of wanting to avoid a merger, but bring the synergies and economies that would have come from one! (How Cathay)

Might be a nice thought for a 15+ year KA Skipper who might one day fly long haul (unlikely since CX don’t allow fleet changes) Or a 5-6 year CX FO dreaming of an early command on the narrow body regional operation, but it won’t happen as it doesn’t benefit management & the stakeholder!

Every year this comes up and every year nothing happens, look at COS18 and other pressing items (bases,fleet transfer,housing,RA55-65) if you want something to worry about!

[Liam Gallagher]

Merging lists ain't going happen. It's a pipe dream of a small, but vocal, number of KA pilots. Here's a reality check.

There are 3 parties and here's their motivations.

1. For 500 KA pilots this is good news. Lose very little, gain access to ULH rosters and Bases (ha..ha..remember those?)
2. For 2500 CX pilots it's very bad news. The FO looking for a quick upgrade is a bit of a "unicorn". Remember, they are far from a majority and if they wanted the quick upgrade, they would have joined KA in the first place!!
3. The company risks litigation (particularly from the foreign unions under first world labour laws) and a stouch from CX pilots, particularly the Captains, Senior FOs and SOs. (The majority). The company does gain flexibility of crewing particularly on the 330.

As always, the company will be the driver in any decision making process, not the unions. Rather than risk a fight, the company can simply offer CX pilots secondment to KA. The DPA might try and oppose, but they didn't oppose training CX JFOs, so I can't see them opposing secondments. The company get what they want, with none of the associated risks.

Sorry to p!ss on your cornflakes, but that's the reality as I see it.

[unitedabx]

Merging lists ain't going happen. It's a pipe dream of a small, but vocal, number of KA pilots. Here's a reality check.

There are 3 parties and here's their motivations.

1. For 500 KA pilots this is good news. Lose very little, gain access to ULH rosters and Bases (ha..ha..remember those?)
2. For 2500 CX pilots it's very bad news. The FO looking for a quick upgrade is a bit of a "unicorn". Remember, they are far from a majority and if they wanted the quick upgrade, they would have joined KA in the first place!!
3. The company risks litigation (particularly from the foreign unions under first world labour laws) and a stouch from CX pilots, particularly the Captains, Senior FOs and SOs. (The majority). The company does gain flexibility of crewing particularly on the 330.

As always, the company will be the driver in any decision making process, not the unions. Rather than risk a fight, the company can simply offer CX pilots secondment to KA. The DPA might try and oppose, but they didn't oppose training CX JFOs, so I can't see them opposing secondments. The company get what they want, with none of the associated risks.

Sorry to p!ss on your cornflakes, but that's the reality as I see it.

It was item 1 in the last CX/KA Managers meeting last week. 10am start Room 102B South Tower

[LLLQNH]

It was item 1 in the last CX/KA Managers meeting last week. 10am start Room 102B South Tower

HAHAHA trying to get the guys blood pressure up!

[MPPCAG]

Merging lists ain't going happen. It's a pipe dream of a small, but vocal, number of KA pilots. Here's a reality check.

There are 3 parties and here's their motivations.

1. For 500 KA pilots this is good news. Lose very little, gain access to ULH rosters and Bases (ha..ha..remember those?)
2. For 2500 CX pilots it's very bad news. The FO looking for a quick upgrade is a bit of a "unicorn". Remember, they are far from a majority and if they wanted the quick upgrade, they would have joined KA in the first place!!
3. The company risks litigation (particularly from the foreign unions under first world labour laws) and a stouch from CX pilots, particularly the Captains, Senior FOs and SOs. (The majority). The company does gain flexibility of crewing particularly on the 330.

As always, the company will be the driver in any decision making process, not the unions. Rather than risk a fight, the company can simply offer CX pilots secondment to KA. The DPA might try and oppose, but they didn't oppose training CX JFOs, so I can't see them opposing secondments. The company get what they want, with none of the associated risks.

Sorry to p!ss on your cornflakes, but that's the reality as I see it.

Don't worry Liam, you're not pissing on anybody's cornflakes. I don't know of a single KA pilot who wants to merge lists, it's not a pipe dream for anybody because nobody wants to see it happen.

[Gnadenburg]

Hi Liam,

Please be right ! No integration with CX please.

Never heard the vocal KA minority you speak of ? No doubting they may be there, but they probably keep pretty quiet, as the majority of our pilots are beneficiaries of potentially rapid promotion at KA that would be thwarted by an integration.

CX secondments? We've already had one but the DPA sent him back.

With all due respect are you jumping at shadows? KA pilots have been called to vote on a training ban.

[ATM00]

@Gnadenburg, Hope you're right, already talk about some pilots will still accept a training position at KA, (just as they still applied during the hiring ban) and (just like at CX in regards to the training ban) looking out for themselves ....disgraceful, would hope they would be put to shame, if the training ban gets voted through.

[TheGreenDragon]

@Gnadenburg, Hope you're right, already talk about some pilots will still accept a training position at KA, (just as they still applied during the hiring ban) and (just like at CX in regards to the training ban) looking out for themselves ....disgraceful, would hope they would be put to shame, if the training ban gets voted through.

Training ban? Won’t happen. No appetite from the silent majority. It Will prevent upgrades, which is the heart n soul of KA’s current attraction to C scalers. A quick command paying big bucks.

Why would anyone in this position vote for this clap trap idea? Its hardly been a success at CX. Embarrassing.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

So any word, is it going to be paid?

[From a distance]

The word will be No. Half way through a made up Time To Win which is a contrived slogan to make up for the contrived losses of fuel hedging, what else could the word be apart from cannot. Let’s not be naive.

[Air Profit]

Couldn't agree more with the above comment. This management has no respect or value towards it's aircrew, and they seem to have a perverse desire to keep piling on. Frankly, I don't mind, as it gives me a legitimate excuse to take a month off during the year as and when I so see fit...as I did this year. Will do so again next. If they can pay our KA brethren, they can pay us. If not, then I simply look at it as another months holiday sometime in the coming year. Don't stress, just get even.

[GMEDX]

Profit, they only pay KA because it is in the contract. They’d love any excuse not to.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

I still dont understand why people accept not being paid 13th month. By paying us monthly and not paying 13th month we are only getting paid for 48/52 weeks of the year

[unitedabx]

Couldn't agree more with the above comment. This management has no respect or value towards it's aircrew, and they seem to have a perverse desire to keep piling on. Frankly, I don't mind, as it gives me a legitimate excuse to take a month off during the year as and when I so see fit...as I did this year. Will do so again next. If they can pay our KA brethren, they can pay us. If not, then I simply look at it as another months holiday sometime in the coming year. Don't stress, just get even.

So why don't ALL captains plan to take 31 days off next year. The rest will make up the lost 13th month in overtime. Simples.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

will never happen, captains didnt get paid and you still have guys joining training

[tiredofstupidity]

lessonlearnt,

Of course we’d vote yes for housing? Or do you expect CX Captains to sacrifice housing to compensate all you dumb f**cks who signed up on HKPA and now have serious buyers remorse.

We do agree that the writing was on the wall for 13th month and everything else that’s transpired since when we didn’t get paid, and the response was a Yammer post.

The strategy for the older generation is to try to accumulate as much as possible so you can stop working, and for the younger generation it’s to leave.

Sorry we we get paid more, have more and will retire in much better shape than you. Chalk it up to being a bit older and getting in at a better time. But please remember nobody put a gun to your head to accept your sub-par conditions. You likely weren’t employable anywhere else, that’s the facts. But you are now so act accordingly.

[mngmt mole]

Brilliant 👍 ( lessonlearnt, you really need a new job....anger mngmt issues).

[illtellyouhowitis]

HAHAHAHA,

lessonlearnt, You clearly display that wonderful snowflake, entitled generation arrogance. Zero experience, many warnings, and you still decided to join CX and grace us all with your wonderful attitude.

Nobody is happy here at CX, shouldn't we all be united in a fight against CX management? You clearly suffer from some childish jealousy, so you direct your immaturity at the Captains, bravo you complete clown.

[spleener]

Looks like the votes are in Mr/Ms Lessonlearnt.

[FlyingNun]

Captains in CX are the biggest P#%*y’s in the company.
How can they stand up to anyone if most of them get bossed around by the ISM on the flight ?
What a bunch of non leaders - scared to ask for a cappuccino..... useless.

no wonder the company will take your 13th month. i know that SO’s are taking massive sick leave that it’s becoming a problem.
What do captains do ? F all that’s the answer.

Probably the bi%#*es of the company.

Bet all you captains will vote yes for your Housing..... why would you not? All selfish.

And newsflash no one give a rats ass about what you own in life.


Is this what happens when you sit on the useless jumpseat for five years. Grow-up
oh, and God bless you.

[unitedabx]

Captains in CX are the biggest P#%*y’s in the company.
How can they stand up to anyone if most of them get bossed around by the ISM on the flight ?
What a bunch of non leaders - scared to ask for a cappuccino..... useless.

no wonder the company will take your 13th month. i know that SO’s are taking massive sick leave that it’s becoming a problem.
What do captains do ? F all that’s the answer.

Probably the bi%#*es of the company.

Bet all you captains will vote yes for your Housing..... why would you not? All selfish.

And newsflash no one give a rats ass about what you own in life.



Very bitter.
Next time you are offered a contract READ IT. Apparently you didn't read your CX one when you signed up. Maybe you wanted "mummy" to do it for you.

[pilot9249]

@dctpub

Glad you know everything about me, but then your location says it all, to me at least. I care not what people get paid, whether it's more than me or not, it's just not relevant to me.

Perhaps you missed the irony I was trying to point out that being paid for 13 months in a year that only has 12 is something the rest of the world would love, though many call it a bonus which has to be earned and is not a right. And before you ask, i don't get those either but that's not unusual either.

At the end of the day, you do still have the ultimate option, to find another job, just like the rest of us

Only a lurker but this post astounds me.

If it's customary to pay 13 months then that is expected by all parties.

Paying 12 months is a 9% pay cut.

You seem to be questioning why the compensation system should ever have been set up to pay 13 months in the first place.

Maybe it should have been set up that way and maybe it shouldn't.

I have no opinion on that but I can't see why it's relevant.

What seems to matter is that it was set up that way, that 13 months pay was customary, and now this is being changed to 12.

[AtoBsafely]

sptraveller,

Thank you for an intelligent post. THAT is exactly the point.

When the Hong Kong system is that you receive your tax assessment demanding a lump sum for early January, then all the "13th month" goes straight to the government anyway.

The policy change from "customary" to "discretionary" is an imposed 9% cut.

[Babbalito]

And what, exactly, did you lot do about it?

[Air Profit]

On a personal note, I took a month off, and will do so again next year if they choose to treat us with that sort of contempt again. As mentioned earlier, deal with the facts, and get even. An extra month off at home is worth the money, at least at this stage of my life. I simply consider the value equation and adjust accordingly.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Agreed. Furthermore, if it's only a partial payment, I will consider it "not paid", and will take a full month off regardless. One year a travesty, two would be open contempt.

[Astro84]

Lessonlearnt, I too do share your frustration as being an SO in this company and how long it is taking to move up the ranks.. But unfortunately we all knew what contract we were signing up to when they sent it to us and we all had the choice not to come. I can say that everyone in the company would want HKPA to be increased and know that it is well below rental prices in Hk. But I do firmly believe by protecting people on B scale and ARAPA which they are entitled to we are inadvertently protecting ourselves from further degradation of our COS 08 to POS18. Just a different point of view

[Samsonite]

Well said ASTRO84!!! Lower your target and less to strive for!!

[Air Profit]

Just a bit angry are we LL...?

[TheGreenDragon]

The GOD’s had strike their many years ago . And the outcome was the era of the 49’ ers

Doing thorough research would confirm why you should , ( if you really must) , join with your eyes open.

VISIT HK , check out apartments, visit a school , drink a beer ! I dunoo , but I did this stuff years ago before I signed up. But that was on FO B scale .

But Please , as you’ve discovered, using confirmation bias based on info from the guys on the interview panel will only lead to tears.

[Flex88]

Astro

Please don't be ignorant.
So did we all know we were signing for 4.5 years as a SO? Did we all know that we would have no increase for the last couple years ? Did we all know that due to CX wanting to save money they screw SO's around? NO....I was told by CX that it was 2.5 years maximum! Yes maybe I should of looked at the snakes that were saying that. I have learnt a lesson never trust a word these 3rd floor "daddies boys" say.

Now protecting the B scale - I agree with you. I will never want them to be thrown under the bus for our gains - but have we as LEP SO's gain anything? NO we have not. And I can hear these GODS aka Captains we fly with say .... you knew what you signed for, or HKPA is under CC/TB.

HKPA was not the reason we began the TB/CC....it was added. These Captains would never give up there lives under the CC and training positions just for HKPA. So ask yourself where is our protection?
Our GOD's think they the only one's with experience in the world, or airline. They think they sh1t hot pilots....ummmm then why are SO's correcting you on our FCOM 3 work, or OPS A updates? Some of the SO's in this company have more experience than 2 x FO's combined.

What we should be doing as a group of pilots and a union is we should have put a stop to POS18 long time ago and had a strike vote etc.
But NO - these GODS of ours are still using commanders discreation, taking up training positions, reducing the fuel to save there fuel log, or diverting to VMMC due to fog and making the tired crew operate back with the RED lanyards around there necks.....team players right?

This whole situation is F%$KED and I would strike if maybe our GOD's had the balls....they the leaders of this airline...well when it comes to messing everyone around with rest they make it known they the boss.
Well then BOSS I dare you to get the union to take action?

It seems to me that LL is angry at himself for being lead down the garden path by 3rd floor sycophants doing exactly what they have been doing for 25 years now. If LL had read these forum postings BEFORE he signed on (with his massive experience) as a mere seat warmer for XX years he would have known how it is here.
That said, his ego got the best of him and he's now pissed off and angry.. That is what happens when you let big dick syndrome rule your life.

As a seat warmer you are ultra angry and sadly you've just started here !! Perhaps best if you move on to a company where you don't have to worry about your rage issues or blood pressure this early in the game.

YOU SIGNED UP !!!

Own it....

[tiredofstupidity]

LL there are FOs at this company who joined when the retirement age was 55. Overnight their time to FO and command doubled as the company switched to RA65. Some of them did longer as SO than any of the current crop of highly experienced SO’s have done. That’s the way it goes. Company is to blame 99% of the time for these situations. Being an entitled **** will not help people fight for you. Luckily most of the guys/gals on the line are not like you.

I find it amusing that you equate knowledge of FCOM3 or OPSA with competency as a pilot. Sure it’s important, but it’s about 15% of the job. I don’t think you understand what the job is, none of us did when we joined. Difference being, when I was an SO I was aware that I had no idea what I was talking about. A portion of the current generation is very very confident in their abilities. Some might say overconfident. Some of the guys/girls are great, some aren’t. Same way it’s always been. I’ve noticed a shift in attitude from eyes wide open, ready to learn. To lessonlearnt.

[1_of_600]

LL,
You may wish to consider that management routinely monitors PPrune.... I'm sure you know that already.
Would not be too much stretch to make the assessment that a "pilot" with the sort of mental / emotional state that you display could reasonably be considered a risk to flight safety and should not be allowed anywhere near the controls of an aircraft. Once that happens there is no limit to the misery that could be brought to bear against you.
​
​​Just sayin ....

[Flex88]

LL,
You may wish to consider that management routinely monitors PPrune.... I'm sure you know that already.
Would not be too much stretch to make the assessment that a "pilot" with the sort of mental / emotional state that you display could reasonably be considered a risk to flight safety and should not be allowed anywhere near the controls of an aircraft. Once that happens there is no limit to the misery that could be brought to bear against you.
​
​​Just sayin ....

Or, he could get promoted to a "Leadership" position.

[unitedabx]

Just back from my HSBC branch after applying for my annual tax loan. Filling in the forms at the branch I was asked my monthly salary ( again ) and the agent multiplied it by 12. I said "no" multiply it by 13, "I get a thirteenth month".
Not this year he said "we've been told you won't".

[Staggers]

Oh c’mon you can do better than that. Try for something a bit more believable🤪

[Kid Dynamite]

You should’ve asked what’s happening to our RPs, ARAPA and HKPA..
I mean, since you’re there at the branch.

[unitedabx]

Oh c’mon you can do better than that. Try for something a bit more believable🤪

Do me a favour Staggers, next time you are near your local HSBC go in and ask the same question.

[unitedabx]

You should’ve asked what’s happening to our RPs, ARAPA and HKPA..
I mean, since you’re there at the branch.

Well I'd stand a better chance of getting an answer than if I waited for an announcement from our union.

[Kid Dynamite]

Can’t argue with you unitedabx...it’s a shambles!
Real shame, we’re only the membership FFS.

[unitedabx]

Can’t argue with you unitedabx...it’s a shambles!
Real shame, we’re only the membership FFS.

Respect to your opinion KD

[EFIS Check]

13th month should be no problem, given how CX management can squander money on fuel hedging contracts and how the very people who were responsible for overseeing the company then are still in charge, in fact have been promoted.

A reminder of the hedging losses of the last 4.5 years (source: annual business reports)
2014: HKD 911.000.000
2015: HKD 8.474.000.000
2016: HKD 8.456.000.000
2017: HKD 6.377.000.000
2018: HKD 653.000.000 (only first 6 months)

Total 2014-2018: 23.960.000.000 USD 3.064.000.000
Yep that’s on average about +USD 1.8 Million per day for 4.5 years on fuel hedging losses alone !

Total # Stuff by end of 2017: 28.000
Had CX management not gone down to the fuel hedging casino they would be no worse off if they had paid every staff member a bonus of HKD 855.000 (USD 109.000).

13th month is peanuts compared. …… if you can afford to gamble the house away, you can afford to take the wife for dinner !
I am sure there is logic somewhere in the above, even though I cannot really see it myself. It is however the same skewed logic used in the 2018 interim report where CX states that they had a “79.8% decrease in fuel hedging losses” …… well done chaps, we are proud of you !

[kenfoggo]

There should be no problem with granting the discretionary 13th Month. The airline is making a HUGE daily operating profit on its airline operations, which is what OUR efforts contribute towards. If there is any downside it is because of hedging losses , which is what Management has contributed toward. Not my fault. Give me the money.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Well, if they don't pay us the 13th month, a large part of the reason will be due to how we failed to react to their decision to not pay us last year. If we had hit them hard with multiple thousands of individual actions in response, they would probably be too nervous to try it again this year. As most of us just whimpered and stamped our feet, I suspect it's likely they will at least consider they can get away with it again. I would strongly suggest that if they do cheat us again (particularly the Captains), you had better be prepared to show them that they have made a historic error of judgement. That will be the only way to ensure it's the last year they commit such a contemptible travesty.

[never ready]

Actually, if the same were to happen this year re the 13th month, we really do need to do more than "stamp feet".
If the same happened to our cabin crew (re no 13th month) they would take immediate action. It's been done before by the cabin crew. With excellent results!

[mngmt mole]

Well, let's just see what happens. I certainly know what my reaction will be. And it will cost CX 3-4 times what the 13th month would have cost them.

[RAT Management]

No body will do anything that will put them in the spotlight. Afterall... Management would want a reason to terminate those expensive b scalers on expat packages.... Win win cost reduction.... Plus the sacking Of atleast an honorary few, will make the rest submit like puppy dogs to the master! They can't afford to upset the cabin crew or Frontline staff... Because it has a direct impact on the product and service..... But the cockpit crew will bitch and complain behind their locked door safely away from public view... Keeping OTP...... But the public think we are all richly overpaid, under worked princesses any way..... so even if you did bitch nobody actually cares.....So in summary, contrary to what people bleet on this forum or behind the locked door..... NOBODY WILL DO ANYTHING THAT MAKES THEM STAND OUT.... Fact!

[mngmt mole]

Ok. I guess me taking a month off “unfit” this past year was “doing nothing “. Got it. (Oh, and never mind ensuring that i cost the operation many $thousands more every month i operated. Quite happy to repeat next year).

[Staggers]

Why not wait and see.
All this angst over something that hasn’t yet happened

[RAT Management]

Exactly my point mole..... You did nothing that made you stand out. You just resort to cowardly guerilla tactics of sick leave ( within the policy). Increase costs only where you can cover your tracks.....You like the rest of the group are so weak it's pathetic. Nobody will make a public stand and be professional for once. Instead it's operation human shield and hide behind others and encourage others to be the public face, while you declare war outside of the sight of the powers that be..... So like I said, nobody will do anything that puts them in the direct spotlight.....least of all the union and even to a lesser extent the president of said union...... TOTAL......J O K E. Everyone should resign from the union. Afterall, instead of having all packages lumped together the company would have to deal with each contact separately.... Total headache.... We are doing them a favor by having a union and even better we sacrifice our salary to give them the convenience of only dealing collectively with one group that in turn delivers a distinct advantage of allowing them play one group off against another to achieve 51%. Watch hkpa increase and removal of training ban screw the b scale over.... And the b scale pay more subs!.... J o k e!

[mngmt mole]

“Cowardly tacticts?” Really? I understand that you are working hand in hand with management. Noted. In the meantime , I emphasize that I will take off at least a month and then cost the company multiple thousands of $$$ every month for the rest of the year. But you go ahead and describe that as “cowardly “. I would suggest that our management are in fact the ones who are cowardly. Btw, your grammar and syntax suggest you need some remedial education.

[Brokeidiot]

Rat Management you really think the HKPA guys/gals are the ones that are going to vote it through?? For an HKPA offer lower then TA16? Think we need to look at who actually stands to benefit if it gets voted through.

[Scoreboard]

Umm they wont negotiate individual contracts they will just lump us all together on the cheapest pice of crap and wheel it out with sign it.....do u even understand how a union works?

[Backupnav]

Rat Management you really think the HKPA guys/gals are the ones that are going to vote it through?? For an HKPA offer lower then TA16? Think we need to look at who actually stands to benefit if it gets voted through.
Of course they will vote yes. They are looking for an upgrade, hence they will vote yes to lift the ban and have a go at an overdue JFO course. Can't expect them not to look at the bigger picture.

[Natca]

Good news is we get a 13th month,
Bad news is the Jellyfish cant even call it a pay deal, its a pay ARRANGEMENT!
What a joke.

[Jnr380]

Salaries section has already confirmed NO 13th month this year for CX pilots. KA of course will get theirs.


Well done you just proved yourself a moron again

[Liam Gallagher]

Has the DFO gone off a bit premature? :)

Isn't 13th month normally announced by a grown-up? I think it's normally the CEO backed up by a message from Director People about the local staff pay award. Then the DFO normally chimes in last to thank everyone and wish them well over Xmas and remind us not to f:mad:k up over Xmas as all the grown-ups are overseas enjoying Xmas. Perhaps the DFO is being a bit premature... (Not the first time I suspect...fnarr..fnarr).

Speaking of premature, I guess he will be correct eventually, a deal will be put up for a vote. He's been saying it from day one, but I don't think anyone's going to vote for a "Pay Arrangement". They might vote for a pay deal as that probably involves a pay rise. A pay arrangement probably involves a tray of pineapples.

Meanwhile the GC amends the P&P manual... Nice one boys...line up those deckchairs with the tip of the iceberg.

[Oasis]

Good to see we have got our 13th month, means we can all stop taking extra fuel, time to win! (Takes cover..)

[TurningFinalRWY36]

haha, well based on an article by the scmp all that will continue as pilots will once again be the only ones to not receive a pay rise, not even an inflationary adjustment

[landrecovery]

So all the older guys say CX traded 13th month for extra pay per month about 20 years ago.
If true you lot are asking for a 14th month, that’s a bit rich

[Loopdeloop]

Incorrect LR. When they did the salaries for bases they were done to include 13th month, not in HK. Hence based Pilot’s don’t get it!

[raven11]

Incrediably misleading and dishonest, in that the incorporation of the 13th month bonus into the based pilot’s pay occurred in combination with a 25% cut in pay. Which in effect turned the 25% pay cut into a 35% pay cut.

We were told that we must accept a 25% pay cut and, what’s more, the pay cut will forever include your 13th month annual bonus.

It was a further kick in the pants while you were down....forcing you to accept a pay cut, and in the same breath telling you the pay cut included your annual bonus.

Such class....

[Busbuoy]

The following applies to Basings Mk2 circa late 1994.
Initially 13th month was paid to based crew. The pay scales were established using the conversion rate of the day and paid in base currency thereafter.
13th month was incorporated into base salary scales from July 1999 and a half 13th month paid December 1999. This no doubt coincided with the attack on A scales in Apr 1999 which saw variable reductions from approx 8.5% in HKG to 35% in AUS. While the company no doubt spun the line that the different rates reflected the net buying power of individual bases (Australia enjoyed a very favourable tax rate at the time and cost of living was lower) the rates actually reflected what the company "thought it could get away with" - AS IT ALWAYS DOES!
From then on individual bases have received both global pay rises and base specific rises so the rates can't be read directly across any more.
What is important is that the threat of withholding of 13th from based pilots has not been available to the company for nearly 20 years.
Only the based crew scales were affected this way, HKG CoS retained 13th month.
As a side note my hazy recollection of the mention by managers various over time of withholding 13th month was that as it was a HKG employment custom, discretion would only be exercised if paying it would effectively render the company insolvent. The recent withholding of it, particularly in the targeted fashion it was withheld can only be viewed as punitive. The "there is not enough money in the pot" argument is specious and deceitful. If there is "enough money in the pot" for managerial bonuses or pay rises to other employee groups there is "enough money in the pot" to honour basic salary commitments to all employee groups. This kind of action should never be allowed to go unaddressed.

There are plenty of things to argue about, lets make sure we argue about the same things and the right things.

[spleener]

The following applies to Basings Mk2 circa late 1994.
Initially 13th month was paid to based crew. The pay scales were established using the conversion rate of the day and paid in base currency thereafter.
13th month was incorporated into base salary scales from July 1999 and a half 13th month paid December 1999. This no doubt coincided with the attack on A scales in Apr 1999 which saw variable reductions from approx 8.5% in HKG to 35% in AUS. While the company no doubt spun the line that the different rates reflected the net buying power of individual bases (Australia enjoyed a very favourable tax rate at the time and cost of living was lower) the rates actually reflected what the company "thought it could get away with" - AS IT ALWAYS DOES!
From then on individual bases have received both global pay rises and base specific rises so the rates can't be read directly across any more.
What is important is that the threat of withholding of 13th from based pilots has not been available to the company for nearly 20 years.
Only the based crew scales were affected this way, HKG CoS retained 13th month.
As a side note my hazy recollection of the mention by managers various over time of withholding 13th month was that as it was a HKG employment custom, discretion would only be exercised if paying it would effectively render the company insolvent. The recent withholding of it, particularly in the targeted fashion it was withheld can only be viewed as punitive. The "there is not enough money in the pot" argument is specious and deceitful. If there is "enough money in the pot" for managerial bonuses or pay rises to other employee groups there is "enough money in the pot" to honour basic salary commitments to all employee groups. This kind of action should never be allowed to go unaddressed.

There are plenty of things to argue about, lets make sure we argue about the same things and the right things.

I think you got that right Busboy. And don't forget the killing the company made on getting people to opt out of the A Scale[defined benefit] retirement fund to go on a base. And then inserting the pineapple.
Old times, but as Mark Twain said " History doesn't repeat, but it sure does rhyme"......