The end of the AFPRB as we know it? [Archive]

Melchett01

21st Oct 2018, 23:13

Well it looks like the impact of the Government’s hand being forced over public sector pay this year is for blanket pay rises to be replaced by pay settlements based on performance, location and efficiencies to ensure public sector pay is more comparable to private sector pay.
Blanket public sector pay rises to be based on performance (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/10/21/blanket-public-sector-pay-rises-will-come-end-treasury-tells/)

Are we therefore looking at the end of the AFPRB in its current guise? I genuinely have no idea how this will work for the Forces. If nothing else comparing military to civilian pay should lead to an increase. I can’t see any professionals out in civvie life accepting a military salary level whilst expecting to do several peoples’ jobs, secondary duties, on call 24/7 for extended periods and then deployed away from home for months on end with potentially life / death responsibilty levels.

Or b....

Or does this just make the AFPRB’s job even harder so the days of timely notification for a 1 Apr implementation will be replaced by months of complex wrangling and pay settlements coming in half way through the year again?

cynicalint

22nd Oct 2018, 00:03

Melchett, you raise many valid points. The AFPRB is already hobbled by Goverment directions that X% is all they can afford during each financial year, but even when they try to focus pay rises on targeted choke point trades and branches, there is an element of blanket rises within those Trades and Branches. This initiative, which incidentally, smells like a crock of 5h1t and will become policy, it will reflect the inequities of the Civil Service bonus scheme and lead to fracturing of esprit de corps. We already have differential pay for different capabilities within the military, albeit an unfair differentiation, which creates some friction. This idea will be even more so.

Whenurhappy

22nd Oct 2018, 06:17

I know how this could be spun: "increase innovation, increase new ways of working, roll out of IT solutions (so you have no down time), etc". It will also make some jobs more attractive (especially the procurement stream) where specious "savings" can be bow-waved to beyond a thruster's posting. The RAF personnel management system is still archaic and formulaic, based on a nigh-on century old model. I acknowledge there are changes, but for the most part career management is about stepping on to the conveyor belt and reaching the low-hanging fruit that will pass basic quality control rather than striving for the interesting and exotic ones, which means jumping off the conveyor for a couple of years. [Ed: a few too many metaphors?]. And then link this to PRP...

Onceapilot

22nd Oct 2018, 08:27

accepting a military salary level whilst expecting to do several peoples’ jobs, secondary duties, on call 24/7 for extended periods and then deployed away from home for months on end with potentially life / death responsibilty levels.

And that was just the start of it. Certainly, many in the RAF were on call 24/365, and that wasn't for wars, just routine cock-ups did see your leave cancelled and even, pulled-in off leave. Such aspects are probably part of a serious military job but, they have never been properly recognised in pay, never acknowledged by the "Command structure" and no element of recompense (that might be claimed as such) has ever been targeted to those effected. :ouch:
I give you the example of a Squadron implementing the man management plan in the late 90's. Allocating personnel the target rest periods (two days in 7 not on tasked duty etc...) created big black marks on the stats due to shortage of manpower. Result, the Station man management plan was binned. :hmm: The only things that defined work levels were, Tasking, Aircraft availability, GASO's and the ingenuity of the individual! Bahhh!

OAP

PS. Oh, and don't go telling me that the tasking was limited by some magic formula of aircraft servicability and manpower. Manpower didn't enter into it at all and tasking was always kept over the top.

Jumping_Jack

22nd Oct 2018, 09:30

Still waiting for this years pay award to be honoured in full. Can't help but think that the MOD is kicking it down the road in order to reduce it's cost to the department as inflation eats away at it......

Pontius Navigator

22nd Oct 2018, 10:11

OAP, I floated similar plan back in the 70s, I would callbit the strip system. As an example applied to a constituted crew: each activity would occupy a strip of time.

Take a planned flight 0900-1400 Monday. The strip might involve preplanning day of 3 hours, then a continuous strip of 8 hours rest, 3 hours preflight, 5 hours flight, one hour post flight and 8 hours rest - 28 hours in total. For simplicity I have omitted meals and pers admin. No strip could overlap.

As we know, all sorts of 'distractions' could be slipped into that strip.

MPN11

22nd Oct 2018, 10:32

And even a humble ATCO, working to a published Watch Roster that ensured adequate down=time, would get pulled in for all sorts of additional tasks. The 24/365 rule certainly applied.

Pontius Navigator

22nd Oct 2018, 10:49

IIRC, I recall that the working month, for establishment calculations, was around 117 hours. The extra working hours, around 40 hours were 'available ' for other duties such as orderly duties, sick parade, secondary duties, leave and so on. As leave took about 180 hours out of the year or 15 hrs/month that 40 was nearer 25 flex.

With full manning and cold war peacetime, pre-taceval, it was
probably not unrealistic.

However how many people ever reclaimed time while sick on leave for extra leave as you were entitled?

k3k3

22nd Oct 2018, 11:03

How many even knew they could claim their leave days back if they were sick on leave? One place I was stationed had a policy of no more than 10% on leave at any one time, when I pointed out there were not enough days in the year to get your leave I found myself on a disproportionate number of orderly dog duties etc.

downsizer

22nd Oct 2018, 11:53

Just This Once...

22nd Oct 2018, 11:55

I'm not sure many would miss the AFPRB. The whole idea of the AFPRB dealing with the 'total remuneration package' was shot to pieces when they were excluded from Pay 2000, 2 x rounds of pension changes, the backdoor ToS changes ahead of JPA and then NEM. Beyond that we have the whole annual theatre of The Treasury setting the money for any pay award several months ahead of the Board under the autumn spending review. A genius move by HMT that ensured even the service chiefs would petition against any pay increase above that set rate, otherwise they would have to rob money from other areas of defence spending to fill the gap.

All we are left with is a quango that does the 'fronting-up' to the troops when in truth they have next to zero control. On the exceptionally few occasions that they have exercised the tiny influence they have (x-factor a few years back and the recent pay round) they lost a chairman on the first count and shotgunned the MoD coffers on the second, whilst leaving those serving little or no idea as to their pay or charges for months.

They should tell it like it really is:

The Treasury produces a simple note on the pay award the preceding autumn without any thought of the consequences and that, in turn, is what the Armed Forces will get the following year. Another, albeit longer note, will then be written several months later with evidence of poor morale, difficult recruitment and appalling retention rates. A few months after that another note will announce that we are below manning target finally another note will be produced to articulate how our military capability is degraded. Again. Rinse-and-repeat.

glad rag

22nd Oct 2018, 11:56

VinRouge

22nd Oct 2018, 12:24

Simple solution, bank what you can and run to the highly lucrative civilian sector. MoD can monk on about SCAPE as long as you realise there is no pot, no option to SIPP out the cash and no guarantee what is promised today will be honoured tomorrow .

If we all had a pension pot, my view may be different. But 2 major pensions changes have illicited the cynic in me.... As has the 0 percent pay rise whilst equivalent civvie pay has gone up by 25% in the past decade.

alfred_the_great

22nd Oct 2018, 16:23

There is an idealogoical distaste in the current Tory party for pay rises that happen automatically - regardless of anything else. See the Junior Doctors (who are not so junior in many cases) and how they were hosed for pay and T&Cs to view our future.

Athough, are there any private sector companies who give you an annual pay rise simply for turning up?

VinRouge

22nd Oct 2018, 16:57

Athough, are there any private sector companies who give you an annual pay rise simply for turning up?
Erm, The airline industry.

BA have 35 pay points. Most others are based on the same.

Thats what MoD needs to wake up to if they intend to compete. Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year. Leave early or miss out. That's the message the front line guys are hearing loud and clear.

http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways

Melchett01

22nd Oct 2018, 17:48

Athough, are there any private sector companies who give you an annual pay rise simply for turning up?

I often have this sort of discussion with civvie friends; no idea why as neither side has ever changed the others mind. But the way I see it is this. Inflationary pay rises are just good practice, especially where companies are doing well and generating profits. It incentivises folk to remain with the firm if they are appropriately paid, which has to be cheaper in the long run than losing experience to a competitor and then having recruitment and training costs on top of the loss you’ve incurred.

As for increments, I wouldn’t advocate endless increments but a pay spine does reflect increasing competence, experience and qualification. As such the top increment rather than the bottom increment represents what that role is actually worth I.e. what a SQEP brings to the table. Below that you are still developing hence the lower pay. No doubt the Treasury don’t agree, in which case they need to stop folk marking time for 2 years on promotion because they haven’t the experience to warrant the jump up a level.

Corporal Clott

22nd Oct 2018, 21:18

Erm, The airline industry.

BA have 35 pay points. Most others are based on the same.

Thats what MoD needs to wake up to if they intend to compete. Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year. Leave early or miss out. That's the message the front line guys are hearing loud and clear.

British Airways pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/British_Airways)

So PAS has 35 levels for Sqn Ldr pilots that pays up to £85k per annum plus the SCAPE rate is 52.4% of that salary to generate the sort of pension you will get in an Armed Forces Pension - so total package is £129,500. Then if you add in free dental care, medical care and cheap quarters (they might be a bit carp but they are cheap) then the BA deal looks a bit sour to me? Also, I heard on the grapevine that rosters are brutal and you have to book your whole year’s leave in advance by October each year otherwise you are into bartering with the Roster Nazis?

Is that grass really just a different intensity of the same shade?

CPL Clott

Pontius Navigator

23rd Oct 2018, 08:14

Corporal Clott, carping on about quarters is a red herring. Living in quarters, saving for a retirement home, letting rent drain your salary and watching house price on for us stupid.

How many now reach retirement without their own home?

Free medical and dental is also questionable as an advantage. Yes, probably easier access to a doctor and free prescription and annual check up. Is a civvie pilot's medical tax deductible? Free dental? An NHS dentist charges less than £20 for an annual check and clean. An eyesight test is also cheap and who really wants mil spec glasses from SpecSavers?

MPN11

23rd Oct 2018, 08:36

Quarters is an interesting question. With both of us serving [and thus moving all the time] MQs made practical sense. However, I remained on the property ladder by (a) owning and paying the mortgage on my parents' retirement home, and (b) buying property to rent out. That said, I guess the dual income/no kids dimension made that a practical and financial option not available to most.

On retirement, after a bit of juggling, we were cash buyers of a large home to actually live in for the first time

Chugalug2

23rd Oct 2018, 08:48

VR:-
BA have 35 pay points....Pay point 35 if you can get there even as an FO is over 130k a year.

Hence the phenomena of the BA Professional First Officer. How can that make sense in a commercial airline? Time in the RHS is meant for preparation for the LHS. It just gives some idea of the value of the LHR slots and the power of BALPA.

VinRouge

23rd Oct 2018, 09:19

VR:-

Hence the phenomena of the BA Professional First Officer. How can that make sense in a commercial airline? Time in the RHS is meant for preparation for the LHS. It just gives some idea of the value of the LHR slots and the power of BALPA.

I guess that due to heavy crewing on ultra long and long means the need more FO than skipper.

Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant. The chancellor has tried to make our service more comparable to the civil sector and failed. No issues with performance related pay, but please at least try and keep up with the t and cs and renumeration if you are going to.

Also forgets that performance in the service doesn't always equate to primary role. So we are going to end up potentially with a load of good guys who do little more than flying marking time, and flying officer brown nose, chairman of the mess cuddly toys now being rewarded.if we are going to do comparative pay, how about pay for aircraft command? IRE? EWI? QWI? QFI?

Oh no, that's right, that involves increasing the budget. So not a chance

Cpl Clotts figures also miss out cheap medical insurance for family, upgrades to business and a 15% company contribution to your pension pot. Your pension pot. Some thing you can do what you want with. Not be promised X, sign on to TOS to 55/65 then only receive 2/3 of X once you are so long in the tooth you have no option other than to stay

Pontius Navigator

23rd Oct 2018, 09:46

Performance pay, like the notorious CS bonus system is so open to arbitrary variation if not cronyism.

The CS system involved a 1 and 2 RO write up and sign off by a 3rd, at one point that was a 2* then when we went purple a mere Colonel.

We were 'pooled' with a number of others in totally different roles and locations. The least bad year 10% got an enhanced bonus, 80% a standard bonus, and 10% no bonus. It was unfunded across the board by reducing basic pay by 10%.

In other words, just rearranging the deck chairs. I guess in Service there will be some low hanging fruit for low award, first tourists, first new role, first on promotion, those that PVR.

There will be a potential for a pay drop year on year.

I expect this will continue until morale improves

Chugalug2

23rd Oct 2018, 11:27

VR, don't get me wrong, I fully endorse your encouragement for people to take stock and act accordingly in their own interests. I was only taking issue with the seeming endorsement of a possible BA career for those who might take the plunge. I would counsel a thorough research of the UK civil airlines before taking that plunge. If there were ever a dilution of the LHR slots that BA holds (not owns, of course) then the outlook would not bode well for it.

VintageEngineer

7th Nov 2018, 17:43

Over my years I ended up in front of an AFPRB several times. Each time I was impressed by the quality of the members, many of whom seem to have been tame appointees that went rogue when given the responsibility.

Stuff

7th Nov 2018, 20:53

Agree totally about the quality of the members of the AFPRB, I was always humbled by the breadth of knowledge and critical analysis they could bring to bear. That said, I totally disagree with the assertion that they, " went rogue when given the responsibility." There is plenty of evidence to support the view that the AFPRB did their job to the letter of their remit but were frustrated by Treasury failing to listen to their views.

Exhibit A: http://alasdairmsmith.********.com/2013/04/the-story-of-my-departure-from-afprb.html

Lima Juliet

8th Nov 2018, 20:53

Cpl Clotts figures also miss out cheap medical insurance for family, upgrades to business and a 15% company contribution to your pension pot. Your pension pot. Some thing you can do what you want with. Not be promised X, sign on to TOS to 55/65 then only receive 2/3 of X once you are so long in the tooth you have no option other than to stay

Vin, once you have earned that pension it is normally protected under AFPS. Hence, pretty much everyone right now is on either AFPS75/15, AFPS75/05/15 or AFPS05/15 terms right now - ie. the pension rights already accrued are protected. Also, the annual pension statement shows you what you have earned so far.

You are right, you can’t take it to ‘do what you like with’, but sometimes we all need protecting from ourselves and frittering away something that we will all need in the future. Also, looking at the crazy money Mrs LJ has invested in civvy pension schemes, and the pittance they currently plan to pay out, then I know where I want my pension pot to reside!

Melchett01

8th Nov 2018, 22:18

Vin, once you have earned that pension it is normally protected under AFPS. Hence, pretty much everyone right now is on either AFPS75/15, AFPS75/05/15 or AFPS05/15 terms right now - ie. the pension rights already accrued are protected. Also, the annual pension statement shows you what you have earned so far.

You are right, you can’t take it to ‘do what you like with’, but sometimes we all need protecting from ourselves and frittering away something that we will all need in the future. Also, looking at the crazy money Mrs LJ has invested in civvy pension schemes, and the pittance they currently plan to pay out, then I know where I want my pension pot to reside!

Your pension maybe protected under the Scheme, but only for as long as HMG choose to honour it. As has been said, our pensions are a promise. And hands up who’s been on a promise before only to be disappointed in the end?! (And I’m not just talking about finding out those stockings are actually tights!)

Reading the papers ahead of the budget made me think just how much political risk there is attached to our pensions. There are so many folk out there that utterly resent public sector pensions that the pressure to axe them or at best prune them back massively to the same poor pensions the private sector get is horrific. I’m not going to rehash the arguments about the rights and wrongs, but there is huge risk that we won’t actually get what has been promised. Not necessarily through scrapping them outright, but they could easily change the tax arrangements so that what looked like a comfy pension is suddenly halved by doubling the multiplier for tax purposes. And if Corbyn gets in, we’re doubly screwed being ‘rich’ ie having worked in a half decent job!

Combined with the risk to the State Pension, our eggs really are in one basket. As well as diversifying into ISAs and other areas, it almost makes one consider jumping ship to bank what has already been earned.

The Nip

9th Nov 2018, 07:59

Your pension maybe protected under the Scheme, but only for as long as HMG choose to honour it. As has been said, our pensions are a promise. And hands up who’s been on a promise before only to be disappointed in the end?! (And I’m not just talking about finding out those stockings are actually tights!)

Reading the papers ahead of the budget made me think just how much political risk there is attached to our pensions. There are so many folk out there that utterly resent public sector pensions that the pressure to axe them or at best prune them back massively to the same poor pensions the private sector get is horrific. I’m not going to rehash the arguments about the rights and wrongs, but there is huge risk that we won’t actually get what has been promised. Not necessarily through scrapping them outright, but they could easily change the tax arrangements so that what looked like a comfy pension is suddenly halved by doubling the multiplier for tax purposes. And if Corbyn gets in, we’re doubly screwed being ‘rich’ ie having worked in a half decent job!

Combined with the risk to the State Pension, our eggs really are in one basket. As well as diversifying into ISAs and other areas, it almost makes one consider jumping ship to bank what has already been earned.

I am sure that I have read somewhere about the differences between AFPS 75 and the others.
My understanding is AFPS 75 is fully protected. The others did not have the same level of protection due to the legal way they were written.

Someone will be along to correct me?

Melchett01

9th Nov 2018, 08:09

I am sure that I have read somewhere about the differences between AFPS 75 and the others.
My understanding is AFPS 75 is fully protected. The others did not have the same level of protection due to the legal way they were written.

Someone will be along to correct me?

It may well be - I'm no expert on pensions policy - but they can still easily knobble you if the political pressure grows to an unsustainable level to narrow the gap between public and private sector pensions. All it takes is to increase the multiplication factor used to calculate the notional tax value and your pension instantly becomes less valuable in terms of the amount landing in your bank account because more is removed in tax because you now exceed a notional limit. That I can see happening quite easily and would be a vote winner. Never mind that the private sector can afford to pay out eye watering sums to its Execs, and should probably therefore look internally first off, it's lets hammer the public sector pension season. And that is a real worry as we approach the back end of a weak Parliament with votes needing to be won.