View Full Version : Thai Airways passengers removed from first class to accomodate deadheaders
Singhaboy
19th Oct 2018, 15:22
The Thai Airways International president has apologised to two passengers forced to give up their first-class seats for two off-duty pilots deadheading from Zurich to Bangkok.
Copy and paste this for full story: bangkokpost.com/business/tourism-and-transport/1560950/thai-sorry-passengers-forced-to-vacate-seats-for-crew#cxrecs_s
Please would a member of admin insert the full url - my posting privileges don't allow me to do so. Many thanks.
Airbubba
19th Oct 2018, 16:57
THAI 'sorry' passengers forced to vacate seats for crew
19 Oct 2018 at 11:29
The Thai Airways International president has apologised to two passengers forced to give up their first-class seats for two off-duty pilots deadheading from Zurich to Bangkok.
The aircraft's departure was reportedly delayed for about two hours, with the on-duty pilots refusing to take off until first-class seats were made available for their off-duty colleagues.
The national airline posted the apology from president Sumeth Damrongchaitham on its Facebook page late on Thursday night.
He said the matter was severe and affected the airline's image. He had ordered an investigation and would ensure such an incident did not occur again.
"I express sorrow and apologise to all passengers affected by the unprofessional action that caused the delay. And I apologise to the passengers who were directly affected by the seat change. I take responsibility for the incident," Mr Sumeth said.
The incident reportedly involved THAI flight TG971 from Zurich to Bangkok on Oct 11. It was scheduled to depart at 1.30pm but the duty pilots refused to take off unless some first-class passengers agreed to give up their seats to two THAI pilots deadheading to Bangkok.
All first-class passengers initially refused to do so. After about two hours of delay, a couple finally vacated their seats so the flight could depart.
They later filed a complaint, saying the two off-duty pilots should have been given vacant seats in business class, rather than taking all passengers hostage to achieve what they wanted.
The flight was over an hour late arriving at Suvarnabhumi airport.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/tourism-and-transport/1560950/thai-sorry-passengers-forced-to-vacate-seats-for-crew#cxrecs_s
This sort of thing happens occasionally in my experience but usually never makes the news. I've seen operating pilots threaten to set the parking brake and get off unless their colleagues were upgraded to business or first class (which in many cases is contractual for duty deadhead). And, I've seen a paying pax offloaded to accommodate an airline executive's wife riding on a pass.
Indian MP Ravindra Gaikwad famously pummeled a flight attendant with his shoe after being seated in economy class instead of business class. It was an all economy flight :ugh::
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4342832/Indian-MP-hit-flight-attendant-25-times-slipper.html
punkalouver
20th Oct 2018, 00:03
Rode AC from FRA to YYZ a couple of days ago with two deadheading cabin crew wanting seats in the completely full business class because it is in their contract. Maybe the paying pax should turn on their video phone and ask the airline rep of they really want another United Airlines style incident on the news.
Rode AC from FRA to YYZ a couple of days ago with two deadheading cabin crew wanting seats in the completely full business class because it is in their contract. Maybe the paying pax should turn on their video phone and ask the airline rep of they really want another United Airlines style incident on the news.
Or maybe the Airline should just honour the contract
Were the offloaded pax offered any compensation in exchange?
Also, in any other airline it wouldn't matter but in this case it does: the offloaded pax are Thais or foreigners?
ImbracableCrunk
20th Oct 2018, 00:29
Or maybe the Airline should just honour the contract
Exactly. I'm not stepping foot on the plane until I've got my contractually guaranteed seat. Thankfully, my management and union are in full agreement.
Rated De
20th Oct 2018, 00:39
He said the matter was severe and affected the airline's image. He had ordered an investigation and would ensure such an incident did not occur again. "I express sorrow and apologise to all passengers...
Airline management rely on this all the time, overbook and then in front of the gathered throng state to the passengers the downgrade is because crew 'want' the seat...
Really simple, honour the contract instead of trying to lever through the duplicitous media.
harrryw
20th Oct 2018, 01:38
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/10/19/thai-airways-first-class-captain/
gives a bit more
kristofera
20th Oct 2018, 01:45
What I would want to know is: were the removed pax revenue pax or non-revenue pax. There are thousands of people in Thailand: third cousins of ex-TG staff, retired politicians, police and military officers etc who have been given free flight benefits years ago, and who keep enjoying those benefits.
If a fare paying pax is bumped, something is wrong. If someone flying for free is bumped: not a problem.
Just my 2 baht... :)
Airbubba
20th Oct 2018, 01:53
From a One Mile at a Time article cited in the link above:
Thai Airways Flight Delayed Because Off-Duty Pilots Wanted First Class SeatsOctober 19, 2018 (https://onemileatatime.com/thai-airways-first-class-seat-delay/) by lucky (https://onemileatatime.com/author/lucky/) 46 (https://onemileatatime.com/thai-airways-first-class-seat-delay/#comments) Thai (https://onemileatatime.com/thai/) Several of you have forwarded me stories about what supposedly happened on Thai Airways flight 971 from Zurich to Bangkok on October 11, 2018.
The story sounds scandalous — there were off-duty pilots onboard, and the captain operating the flight refused to depart until his colleagues were allocated first class seats, even though all first class seats were taken by passengers. Only after two passengers offered to downgrade from first to business class seats did the flight continue.
https://onemileatatime-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Thai-Airways-First-Class-747-29-1.jpg
The flight took off about 2.5 hours late because of this incident, and landed about 1.5 hours late.
Thai Airways’ president has apologized for the incident and taken responsibility:
“I express sorrow and apologize to all passengers affected by the unprofessional action that caused the delay. And I apologize to the passengers who were directly affected by the seat change. I take responsibility…”
But what really happened?
Well, based on the research I’ve done, it seems that this may not have been quite as it seems. It’s still bad, but no one here got downgraded to a cabin below what they paid for.
First of all, Thai Airways uses a combination of 777-300ERs and 747-400s on their route between Bangkok and Zurich. They don’t sell the first class cabin on this flight, so no one actually paid for a first class seat. Rather the first class seats are available to be assigned by business class passengers on a first come first served basis.
For example, here’s the seatmap for an upcoming flight, showing the first class cabin as the first three rows of business class:
https://onemileatatime-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Thai-747.png
It would appear that this 747-400 flight to Bangkok had four deadheading pilots onboard (this means they were flying as passengers, but on company business in this case). That makes sense, since the previous flights had been operated by 777-300ERs, so they were likely 777 pilots and not 747 pilots.
Here’s a memo written regarding the incident (https://mgronline.com/onlinesection/detail/9610000104381), which is in Thai. Here’s part of it translated, via Google Translate:“Due to the flight case. TG971 / 11OCT / ZRH-BKK 49C 325Y, B777-300ER Config. 42C 306Y, due to the B777 and B747 airplane changes, resulting in Passive Crew 2FC and 2FP. Please refer to the Flight Crew Standard Passage Crew’s Seat for Passenger Crew and Passive Crew Summer 2018 which determines the 24AB / EF seat. The seating 16AB / JK, a seat in the C-class Upper deck replacement “due to change flight times to change the flight in advance (refer to ASM YS 252 dated September 13, 2561) makes the reservation the seating chart in. First Class Zone (Row 1-3) for business class passengers. And passengers have already booked seats.
“TG971 / 11OCT has 39C 275Y passengers, with all seats in the First Class Zone (9 seats) reserved in advance. When all the pilots and crew arrived. The Passenger Crew’s Passenger Crew number is 16AB / JK (2FC / 2FP). The PIC denies and confirms that both Passive FCs are seated in the First Class Zone. Will perform as requested. The station. Passengers are required to seat in First Class Zone for individual seats. But it has been totally rejected. Until XXX, the passenger number XXXXX and his wife decided to move the seat to 16AB. Later, the passenger stated that the passenger was XXXXX and his wife. And ask for a solution to prevent such problems again.
https://onemileatatime-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Thai-Airways-First-Class-747-3-1.jpg
So I’m still not completely sure what exactly triggered this incident. I’m not sure how much of this comes down to a technicality of a plane with first class being operated in a way where they’re not selling first class.
At a minimum it sounds like pilots are entitled to certain business class seats in this configuration, and it sounds like deadheading captains might be entitled to first class seats, even. But they weren’t selling first class on this service yet all the seats were assigned, so…
Regardless, I find it ridiculous that this couldn’t be resolved in a faster manner. Delaying a flight by 2.5 hours over an employee seat issue is simply embarrassing.
At the same time, I do think it’s worth acknowledging that no one was downgraded here to a cabin below what they paid for. Seat assignments are always subject to change, and that includes if you can snag a “free” upgrade to a first class seat on a flight where the cabin isn’t for sale.
https://onemileatatime.com/thai-airways-first-class-seat-delay/
Don't shoot me but, why they deadheading crew didn't choose to go back to the hotel in Zurich if the seats are not what they are entitled to contractually? That means more perdiems and hotels for the airline to pay and lack of technical crew in Bangkok base (the deadheading crew would not be able to take more duty in the next few days) without giving the airline management the perfect excuse to go after the pilot force in general.
There are ways and ways...
filejw
20th Oct 2018, 02:41
Exactly. I'm not stepping foot on the plane until I've got my contractually guaranteed seat. Thankfully, my management and union are in full agreement.
I had had this happen a few times over my career and instead of a confrontation with a gate agent I would call my crew scheduler and just tell them I had been denied boarding. As I recall I was called by gate agent shortly after with proper seat . No conflict or argument although a dirty look was usually shot my way. FYI I am talking about an on duty DH contractually guaranteed seat .
harrryw
20th Oct 2018, 02:53
The real answer if there was an issue was that the affected crew should have just refused to travel. The company could have then sorted out if they were within their rights to do so and no paying passengers inconvenienced.
Icarus2001
20th Oct 2018, 03:43
and no paying passengers inconvenienced Surely the paying passengers got what they paid for, a business class seat. They just missed out on a free upgrade to a first class seat with business class catering probably, due to the aircraft change.
Badly handled all around by the look of it. When you add Thai national idiosyncrasies to the mix this was inevitable.
Don't shoot me but, why they deadheading crew didn't choose to go back to the hotel in Zurich if the seats are not what they are entitled to contractually?
Perhaps they actually wanted to go home to be with their family?
Octane
20th Oct 2018, 05:22
Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway. Implying business class is not good enough for them is not a good PR look for the airline..
Bend alot
20th Oct 2018, 05:26
The seating example given above shows all seats as business.
It does seem some seats are better than others but that is the case throughout aircraft.
And from the photo hardly worth fighting over one of the cubicles.
Icarus2001
20th Oct 2018, 08:46
Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway. Well that would depend on their contract, it may well say that they dead head in the highest class available. Or perhaps they get business class, which was full so they expected to be put in first not the passengers who had paid for business class seats. Too much unknown.
FlyMD
20th Oct 2018, 09:12
What it is, is bad marketing and communication from the airline. You don't let your passengers know that a conflict between crew and company is taking them hostage. You determine which 2 first class seats have to be vacated, and then do whatever it takes to keep the two "downgraded" passengers happy. And yes, occasionally that will imply a lavish expense of miles/vouchers/cash/free tickets.
I had an experience with Condor Flugdienste, whereby I had booked my business class seat months in advance, full fare, and as I was a gold member of their alliance at the time, I really did NOT expect to be booted down to premium economy. However, as their decrepit old 767 had trouble waking up in Frankfurt that morning, 2 hours delay meant that the enlarger was entitled to 2 (!) business class seats for his enroute rest, and one of those seat happened to be "mine". The gate agent never even entered into negotiations with me, just told me the facts and faced me with the choice of either waiting 4 days (!!) for the next direct flight, or sit in premium economy. Fair enough so far, but here's the rub: instead of helping get compensation, all I was left with was an internet address to which I was "authorized" to complain, and 6 weeks and 2 phone calls later, what I got was the price-difference between the premium eco and the business class ticket. No apology, no compensation, NOTHING. So f*ck Condor from now on, and my loyalty miles are now with another alliance. Had they wanted to keep more of my business, all they had to do was apologize, give me an upgrade voucher for a future flight, and compensate my fare difference without my having to beg for it...
PAXboy
20th Oct 2018, 13:47
This probably comes down to the Thai culture and an authoritarian approach. If you couple that with a lack of understand of the modern Twit, Gram and Face brigade that can 'lynch' you electronically ... then there will be more of this. We have famously seen United start to learn the lesson and other companies (not just airlines) are doing so too.
What those involved (at middle and senior levels) have to learn is that, a conflict - however minor - that you think has been resolved to your satisfaction, will be on the Net before you have walked from the aircraft back to your office. So be thinking about the e-lynching whilst the problem is evolving! That does not mean giving in to whatever is being demanded but know what the contract says for all parties involved. Be ready with your explanation to your senior manager!
Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway. Implying business class is not good enough for them is not a good PR look for the airline..
The crew just flew the 744 in, being sent back on the same aircraft. The route is normally a 777, the 744 was used as a one off replacement that day.
The Thai 777s have no first class, all passengers had business class tickets, the 744 has 50 business class seats. The 777 has 42 business class seats. The 744 should have has 8 business class and the 14 first class seats empty after accommodating all of the paid passengers.
oldbeefer
20th Oct 2018, 20:21
As an ex military helicopter pilot, it has confirmed my belief that most long haul pilots are over paid prima donnas!
Rated De
21st Oct 2018, 00:31
Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway. Implying business class is not good enough for them is not a good PR look for the airline..
Off duty crew aren't entitled to anything that their contract does not reflect.
Given that contracts are a result of a negotiation it is simply the contract in action.
WindSheer
21st Oct 2018, 07:14
Put yourself back in the interview for the role as pilot. If a question on this scenario was asked, what would you say you would do?
How about just having a non standoff attitude, looking after your employer and your livelihood and just grabbing any seat, putting the people who pay your wages first (the customer).
Pathetic!
wiggy
21st Oct 2018, 07:22
As an ex military helicopter pilot, it has confirmed my belief that most long haul pilots are over paid prima donnas!
General point...it’s not always about getting a comfy seat home - we’ve had Crew been rostered to position out from base on 11 hour night sector, min rest at hotel in daytime , operate night flight back. That sort of integration is why there may be a cover all contractural reason for a better than M class seat.
Put yourself back in the interview for the role as pilot. If a question on this scenario was asked, what would you say you would do?
How about just having a non standoff attitude, looking after your employer and your livelihood and just grabbing any seat, putting the people who pay your wages first (the customer).
Pathetic!
Or maybe the crew positioned an empty aircraft and were returning directly.
The pax in J seats hadn't paid for J either.and made a fuss over nothing also!!
Not handled well by anyone.
MerchantVenturer
21st Oct 2018, 12:10
So am I reading that if a passenger pays for a first-class seat or a business-class seat (this is speaking generally and not about this particular incident) and is asked to move to a lower class because pilots need to be transported for their duty and it's in their contract to be carried in first or business (as the case may be) the passenger is obliged to do so because the pilot's contract with his/her airline employer stipulates such a class of travel in the circumstances? Hasn't the passenger also entered into a contract with the airline to fly business or first (whichever he/she booked)?
PAXboy
22nd Oct 2018, 00:33
Put yourself back in the interview for the role as pilot. If a question on this scenario was asked, what would you say you would do?
How about just having a non standoff attitude, looking after your employer and your livelihood and just grabbing any seat, putting the people who pay your wages first (the customer).
Pathetic!
Well, consider yourself in a culture where respect for the elders and 'process' is still very high, having been built in from birth. Then consider yourself a senior Captain with many years on the line, long used to having everyone below respect you and (crucially in this case) stick to the process.
To ask that Captain and crew to suddenly change a life time of culture and years of company arrangements? In the West we might now agree a compromise but, 40 years ago, would we have done so? Was the Captain of the ship still master of all he surveyed?
As I said before, Thai Airways will (probably) learn from this but don't expect overnight changes.
parabellum
22nd Oct 2018, 04:24
So am I reading that if a passenger pays for a first-class seat or a business-class seat (this is speaking generally and not about this particular incident) and is asked to move to a lower class because pilots need to be transported for their duty and it's in their contract to be carried in first or business (as the case may be) the passenger is obliged to do so because the pilot's contract with his/her airline employer stipulates such a class of travel in the circumstances? Hasn't the passenger also entered into a contract with the airline to fly business or first (whichever he/she booked)?
Any company worth its salt will block off crew seats well in advance, providing they have notice, crew movements are often scheduled and can be easily planned for without upsetting anyone.
parabellum
22nd Oct 2018, 04:34
Why should the off duty crew be entitled to first class anyway. Implying business class is not good enough for them is not a good PR look for the airline..
These sort of remarks come from the people who, as a pax on a ship, will scratch each others eyes out to get a seat at the captains table but somehow think it is wrong to see a captain of an airliner sitting in First class, which is actually good PR, it shows the company looks after its crew, which is good news for everyone. To those of you who have a problem with crew positioning in First class, don't go near any Japanese airline, especially JAL.
GrahamO
22nd Oct 2018, 06:59
Or maybe the Airline should just honour the contract
Yes, the one under which the passengers paid to get a seat.
tescoapp
22nd Oct 2018, 08:10
Yes, the one under which the passengers paid to get a seat.
I think you need to read the print of the seat contract your actually purchasing when you buy a ticket.
BAengineer
22nd Oct 2018, 13:45
Any company worth its salt will block off crew seats well in advance, providing they have notice, crew movements are often scheduled and can be easily planned for without upsetting anyone.
Well you would think so, but today all airlines are so keen on squeezing every last person onto the plane (and dollar out of them) they tend to routinely overbook and leave it to the gate agent to sort out. I have had my (blocked) seat given away without anyone asking (several times) and at the last minute, to accommodate me, they had to offload the passenger who was sitting in the seat. If the gate agent asked I tended to agree to give up my seat and go and sit on the flt deck if it wasn't a long flight but it was always my decision.
The person I feel sorry for is the poor gate agent who is going to upset someone whatever they do - and they wont get any support from management over the decision made.
Deltasierra010
22nd Oct 2018, 18:43
Surely the as all the passengers in first class had been upgraded, the cabin crew decide who was likely to cause the least fuss and TELL them they had been upgraded incorrectly and the first class passengers had arrived, so they must reseat to business class. Not ideal but mistakes do happen.
Deltasierra010
22nd Oct 2018, 18:45
Surely the as all the passengers in first class had been upgraded, the cabin crew decide who was likely to cause the least fuss and TELL them they had been upgraded incorrectly and the first class passengers had arrived, so they must reseat to business class. Not ideal but mistakes do happen.
GrahamO
23rd Oct 2018, 06:59
I think you need to read the print of the seat contract your actually purchasing when you buy a ticket.
I think you should stop trying to use semantics to avoid the simple fact that there's paying passengers who are entitled to a seat on that aircraft.
The pasengers paid top get on that flight at that time and the deadheads did not. Its pretty simple to understand unless you believe the airline exists for the benefit of pilots.
I think you should stop trying to use semantics to avoid the simple fact that there's paying passengers who are entitled to a seat on that aircraft.
The pasengers paid top get on that flight at that time and the deadheads did not. Its pretty simple to understand unless you believe the airline exists for the benefit of pilots.
except no one paid for J seats on that flight so there was no entitlement
esa-aardvark
23rd Oct 2018, 11:59
I just paid for first class travel with Singapore. Is there a real chance that I might not get it ?
If so I would rather reschedule. Are certain airlines known for this kind of problem.
parabellum
24th Oct 2018, 06:30
SIA are an excellent airline, very passenger orientated and no chance you would be asked to move or displaced by positioning crew. Positioning crew travel on Economy tickets that are upgradable to First class IF SEATS ARE AVAILABLE. If you have already paid for a First class ticket your seat is confirmed.
GrahamO
25th Oct 2018, 16:25
except no one paid for J seats on that flight so there was no entitlement
Yet more semantics which proves my previous point - an expectation that fee paying passengers are only there if there are no pilots who want the seat.
They paid for seats so their contract should come ahead of those who don't pay. Passengers first, deadheaders last.
DaveReidUK
25th Oct 2018, 17:10
Yet more semantics which proves my previous point - an expectation that fee paying passengers are only there if there are no pilots who want the seat.
They paid for seats so their contract should come ahead of those who don't pay. Passengers first, deadheaders last.
Oh dear.
Nobody was offloaded.
Nobody flew in a seat that was inferior to the one they had paid for.
What part of that are you having trouble understanding ?
Yet more semantics which proves my previous point - an expectation that fee paying passengers are only there if there are no pilots who want the seat.
They paid for seats so their contract should come ahead of those who don't pay. Passengers first, deadheaders last.
They paid for C class seats and received C class seats. What What part of "the contract" wasn't fulfilled?
Final 3 Greens
26th Oct 2018, 03:28
Guys, let's cool down for a mo.....
There was no first class cabin on the aircraft, so the pilots could not receive their contractual benefit, that's a matter for resolution internally.
What happened was that passengers were moved from pre-allocated seats to accommodate crew who apparently showed bad grace in the public eye, as Paxboy says, this is unwise in today's social media environment - whether the pax were revs or non revs is unclear, though I suspect they were revs from the wording of post #10.
This story embodies, at least for me, the ineptitude of the airline sector in being unable to manage situations that are predictable - if I read post #10 correctly, there were free seats in business class and the airline failed to manage the allocation of these - had the crew been allocated seats in the first class zone, before they were offered to the passengers, this situation would have been avoided. Why is it that situations with advance notice catch airlines unawares - the rest of us look ahead, plan contingencies and keep our customers happy - as they are the reason we exist.
To inconvenience passengers with a 2 hour delay, because of an intra-company disagreement is totally unprofessional.
esa-aardvark
26th Oct 2018, 12:03
If it works, Bangkok post article, perhaps true ?
Maybe the Thai pilots had a clause in their contract stating
travel in the 'highest class available'. I did once, but with very limited applicability.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1561566/thai-to-pilots-dont-talk-about-zurich?utm_source=bangkopost.com&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=most_view_bottom_box
https://m.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1566526/thai-captain-station-chief-unethical-in-seating-dispute
Issue solved, then. Slap on the wrist for everyone, a wai on the first page of local papers and a compensation for the pax.
Who knows if they are to change the way they handle issues in the future.