CARS max airspeed 200kts 3000agl 10nm

[cmmsense]

The CARs say: " If the minimum safe airspeed for the flight configuration of an aircraft is greater than the airspeed referred to in subsection (1), the aircraft shall be operated at the minimum safe airspeed. "
When you are approaching the airport, if your clean speed is greater than 200 kts, can you maintain that higher airspeed? I need clarification on what "flight configuration of an aircraft" means. My understanding is that if you are in the clean flight configuration, than you can maintain your minimum clean speed at that configuration.
Thanks for any help you have on this.

[Ramjet555]

I'll take a stab at this one.
I believe it refers to almost exclusively military aircraft whose
dirty slowest speed is above 200 kts.

[lost_expate]

It applies to all aircraft including Civilian aircraft.

[extreme P]

Maintain your clean speed as long as "practicable".

However, consider ten miles or less from landing and maintaining 220 KIAS is going to make your approach rather sporty.

[nolimitholdem]

I'll take a stab at this one.
I believe it refers to almost exclusively military aircraft whose
dirty slowest speed is above 200 kts.

I'm pretty sure any military aircraft are able to go slower than 200 kts once configured (dirty). How else do they land? For sure not at 200+ kts? ;)

If you meant to say clean speed, then that applies to any heavy aircraft - min clean speed on any widebody at landing weight is well above 200 kts.

Perhaps you were thinking of hold speeds, where there may be exemptions to allow heavier a/c to hold at higher speeds to prevent having to do so with slats/flaps extended...?

[J.O.]

As an example, you are approaching the airport from the west and landings are on runway 27. You’re on radar vectors and ATC has you descend to 3,000 ft when you’re 10 miles to the west to get you below the departing traffic (an inefficient plan but one that does occur from time to time). The base leg turn point is 8 miles from the runway, meaning you have over 20 track miles to go. That’s a long distance to fly with slats / flaps deployed to stay below 200 kts. The intent is to allow you to stay at minimum clean airspeed until you start extending slats / flaps for the approach.

[Pilot DAR]

Bear in mind that the basis of this rule, in addition to harmony of traffic flow at civil airports, is more to the pilot's interest, reduction of the risk of damage from a bird strike. Large civil aircraft must demonstrate withstanding an 8 pound bird at Vc, but that does not suggest no damage, and the faster speed greatly increases the intensity of damage.

[nolimitholdem]

As an example, you are approaching the airport from the west and landings are on runway 27. You’re on radar vectors and ATC has you descend to 3,000 ft when you’re 10 miles to the west to get you below the departing traffic (an inefficient plan but one that does occur from time to time). The base leg turn point is 8 miles from the runway, meaning you have over 20 track miles to go. That’s a long distance to fly with slats / flaps deployed to stay below 200 kts. The intent is to allow you to stay at minimum clean airspeed until you start extending slats / flaps for the approach.

At many (most?) busy international airports it's routine to fly at less than 200kts for the last 20+ miles. Typical profile has one at 210kts until about 20 miles, 180 until 10, 160 until 4 or 5 miles. Depends on where in the world you are: in the UK they tend to use holds to meter the traffic, in the US they prefer to use delay vectors and speed control.

In practical terms there's no way around flying with some slats/flaps out at ranges more than 10nm.

[surveytheworld]

At many (most?) busy international airports it's routine to fly at less than 200kts for the last 20+ miles. Typical profile has one at 210kts until about 20 miles, 180 until 10, 160 until 4 or 5 miles. Depends on where in the world you are: in the UK they tend to use holds to meter the traffic, in the US they prefer to use delay vectors and speed control.

In practical terms there's no way around flying with some slats/flaps out at ranges more than 10nm.

Ever fly to EWR? Normally they will yell at you if you fly less than 230 knots 20 miles out!
180 til 4-5 miles final is is common!! And MDW? Ha. I've been asked if I can maintain 200 til 4-5 miles final there!

I fly central eastern Canada and the US and where I go (for example EWR, MDW, BOS, IAD) it's rare to be told to slow to 200kts 20 miles out, except maybe IAD.

[extreme P]

Ever fly to EWR? Normally they will yell at you if you fly less than 230 knots 20 miles out!
180 til 4-5 miles final is is common!! And MDW? Ha. I've been asked if I can maintain 200 til 4-5 miles final there!

I fly central eastern Canada and the US and where I go (for example EWR, MDW, BOS, IAD) it's rare to be told to slow to 200kts 20 miles out, except maybe IAD.

Your experience is valid but really doesn't seem relevant to the topic. CARS and speed limits and such.

[Idle Thrust]

Bear in mind that the basis of this rule, in addition to harmony of traffic flow at civil airports, is more to the pilot's interest, reduction of the risk of damage from a bird strike. Large civil aircraft must demonstrate withstanding an 8 pound bird at Vc, but that does not suggest no damage, and the faster speed greatly increases the intensity of damage.

I thought the CARs were dealing with traffic flow and separation here - are you saying that the Feds regulate speed to avoid bird strikes? I thought that sort of decision rested with the pilot in command, as with avoiding turbulence, icing, fuel starvation etc.. Just as we have road speed limits in urban areas it is understandable that airport traffic patterns ought to also but delaying the extension of high lift/drag devices is equally understandable. Fortunately the application of this rule allows you to keep it clean as long as possible. In 20K hours at the job I never found it to be a problem.

[cmmsense]

I found a circular that says that you can only exceed 250kts below 10000ft if your minimum speed for the flight configuration is above 250kts. The circular tells pilots to inform departure control "minimum speed 270kts". Well, to me that must mean minimum clean speed, and if it does, than it also means that you dont have to remain with flaps to keep 250kts. And if that is the case, I dont see why it would be different for the 200kts limitation that also specifies "for the flight configuration".
So, on departure, we also have to maintain 200kts? If you say the limitation is because of birds, than the answer must be yes...?

[nolimitholdem]

The circular you're referring to is for departures. Departure rules are different from arrival rules because takeoff weights are different from landing weights. Duh.

The 250kt below 10,000 has nothing to do with the 200kt within 10 miles.

And yes, there are many places that do slow you down further than 20 miles out. Many published STAR's have mandatory speeds below your mentioned 230-250 knots, lowering you to 210 and then ATC further slowing you to 190, 180... I'm well aware some airports like you to stay as fast as long as possible, I operate to JFK regularly. But not relevant to the discussion.

[cmmsense]

The Speed limits in Canada are for departures and arrivals. Long time ago the 250kts limit was not applicable for departures, now it is also. The point being if you dont need to keep flaps for the 250 limit, then you dont need to extend flaps for the 200kts limit either...that's all. Yes a departing aircraft is obviously heavier and has a much higher clean speed...irrelevant. There are cases when the pilot might not want to extend flaps to 5 when below 3000 10nm to meet the 200kts restriction (for arrival) if for example he is number 18 for the approach and will do an extended downwind for a 20nm final. Heavy jets sometimes need to go to flaps 5 if they want 200kts.

Thank you for all answers,