Marham’s future

[RetiredBA/BY]

An article in today, s Daily Mail ( yes I know ) reports that our esteemed Minister Of Defence, one Gavin Williamson, has threatened to close Marham, where millions have been spent on F35 upgrades, in a spending spat with Liz Truss in whose constuency Marham is.
It is suggested that F 35 will be moved to another base. ( such as ? )

Now that, Mr Williamson, seems to be a really cunning plan, for outstandingly good operational and economic reasons, or have I missed something?

Yes, we need to spend more, a lot more , on defence, but spending on a base move, purely to make a personal point to a fellow minister, seems somewhat crass.

[Alber Ratman]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x400/cxzlfkfuaaa5vrd_0548dad8f93929b6360a19e320db46a007c2f73f.jpg

Will get removed, but so true. Why people believe the rubbish in it is unbelievable.

[Cows getting bigger]

Cosford, in his own constituency. That would keep his phones busy. :)

[ZH875]

After spending lots upgrading Leuchars from Tornado to Typhoon, it shut and the Typhoons moved to Lossiemouth and millions more were spent upgrading Lossiemouth, just because some MP moaned. So I wouldn't be surprised if Marham closed.

[turbroprop]

Plenty of empty bases in RAF Lincolnshire. Maybe room could be found at Scampton. Re open Binbrook. East Kirby would be good as it would nice to two bases operating Lancaster’s.

[Linedog]

There'll be a spare aircraft carrier along soon. Just moor it off the Norfolk coast.

[ShyTorque]

Re open Binbrook.

I think that one's more than a bit too far gone!

[MPN11]

Waddington has a nice big runway.

[turbroprop]

Using Waddington would be totally unacceptable as that nice long runway would be wasted on the F35. Like the carrier idea, but park if a bit further south. It about time RAF Dogger Bank got a runway.

[ORAC]

Well if you halved the order for F-35B and used the spare cash to order more Typhoons to be based at CY and LM, then there should be enough cash to move the remaining carrier based wing to.... RNAS Yeovilton?........

[MPN11]

should be good for a few years - took the MoD nearly 2 years to get it resurfaced - the new A14 through Cambridgeshire is only taking a little less than that :ugh:
There was, of course, the saga of resurfacing Scampton ... when the contractor omitted the friction course. One approach on a wet day and a lot of diversions to Waddington. ;)

Perhaps Cranwell would like to have some operational aircraft based there?

[glad rag]

After spending lots upgrading Leuchars from Tornado to Typhoon, it shut and the Typhoons moved to Lossiemouth and millions more were spent upgrading Lossiemouth, just because some MP moaned. So I wouldn't be surprised if Marham closed.

I clearly remember CMD saying how f35 would bring jobs to the region ...well how many have gone instead...

[superplum]

They'll be sharing at LKN - makes so much financial sense!

[Legalapproach]

The major factor will be finding an alternative airfield still in the vicinity of Sandringham.

[Tankertrashnav]

I really hope it doesn't go, for purely nostalgic reasons. I spent six very happy years there in the 70s

Cue a few "El Adem with grass" posts, but I could never understand that - I loved it.

[George Richardson]

What about Linton. In the 1950’s L-o-O was home to 44+ Sabres and 12 Meteor NF 11/14’s. So plenty of hangar and air space.The Vale of York AIAA should stand for Area of Infrequent Aerial Activity ! There are lots of excellent pubs within ten miles and locals are friendly.

[Navaleye]

What about RNAS Ford? I will help cut the grass.:eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

Using Waddington would be totally unacceptable as that nice long runway would be wasted on the F35. Like the carrier idea, but park if a bit further south. It about time RAF Dogger Bank got a runway.
They could use 11/29, plenty long enough and great for pairs landings 😊

[Davef68]

After spending lots upgrading Leuchars from Tornado to Typhoon, it shut and the Typhoons moved to Lossiemouth and millions more were spent upgrading Lossiemouth, just because some MP moaned. So I wouldn't be surprised if Marham closed.

Money already spent is of no interest to the Govt. It's just a historical line on a balance sheet.

[BVRAAM]

After spending lots upgrading Leuchars from Tornado to Typhoon, it shut and the Typhoons moved to Lossiemouth and millions more were spent upgrading Lossiemouth, just because some MP moaned. So I wouldn't be surprised if Marham closed.


Wouldn't it seem more likely that they moved the Typhoons to Lossiemouth to give Lossiemouth a continued purpose after ceasing Tornado GR4 Ops at the base, while they messed around for a few years to get the Nimrod replacement ready which was planned for Lossie?

[RetiredBA/BY]

OK, joking aside, they won’t close Marham, we all know that would be absurd, even if Williamson doesn’t, !

However just what required the spending of 250m Gbp. (HAS perhaps but what else? )

When I was at Marham we had four squadrons of Valiants, 3 bomber plus a tanker unit, large numbers of “ special weapons” both U.K. and American. Enormous facilities.

So so what was all this money spent on for these little jets ?

[MPN11]

I could guess very sophisticated simulator facilities, which don’t come cheap, for a start.

[Pontius Navigator]

Runways that don't melt when the snow blow blows?

[Slow Biker]

General Schwarzkopf relates in his biography the time, as a junior officer, he was sent to explain to a state senator all the very good reasons an army base in the state would be closed. After the presentation the senator thanked Norman for coming and explaining so well. He then gave his reply 'son, over my dead fu**king body'.

[oldmansquipper]

Stop fretting folks!

When 'The man of the People' gets into power, he will close all of them anyway.

[Bing]

OK, joking aside, they won’t close Marham, we all know that would be absurd, even if Williamson doesn’t, !

However just what required the spending of 250m Gbp. (HAS perhaps but what else? )

When I was at Marham we had four squadrons of Valiants, 3 bomber plus a tanker unit, large numbers of “ special weapons” both U.K. and American. Enormous facilities.

So so what was all this money spent on for these little jets ?

Sticking my neck out, it may be that things have needed refurbishing since the 'recent' departure of the Valiants...

[Tankertrashnav]

They've got a nice Victor K2 sitting on the parade square. I'd put in a bid for that if I could move it down to Cornwall!

[RetiredBA/BY]

Sticking my neck out, it may be that things have needed refurbishing since the 'recent' departure of the Valiants...

Yes, of course, it’s a long time, 53 years, since the Valiants went, BUT, Marham has been in continuous use since then as very large base for squadrons of Victor tankers and the Tornado.

So, just wondering what the new money has been spent on in preparation for the Lightning 2.

[zetec2]

Have they rebuilt the NAAFI, that was a sure sign a base was going to close, plus runway resurfacing, oh hang on a minute didn't they recently do just that ?.

[Chris Kebab]

...those jets do need a fairly fast broadband connection and that doesn't come cheap!

[glad rag]

I could guess very sophisticated simulator facilities, which don’t come cheap, for a start.


Ha ha nice one...

[Bing]

Yes, of course, it’s a long time, 53 years, since the Valiants went, BUT, Marham has been in continuous use since then as very large base for squadrons of Victor tankers and the Tornado.

So, just wondering what the new money has been spent on in preparation for the Lightning 2.

https://www.forces.net/news/raf-marhams-ps500-million-upgrade-f-35-stealth-jets

Runways, buildings, and maintenance facilities. I'd guess a lot of it was work that needed to be done if the base was going to stay open post Tornado, but no-one was willing to invest until that decision was made.

[ian16th]

Yes, of course, it’s a long time, 53 years, since the Valiants went,

Time flies!

I was demobbed from 214 @ Marham as the Valiants were scrapped. :)

February 1965

[Fareastdriver]

On the 8th December 1964, shortly after we had left our refuelling drogue on a Lightning from Leconfield. we touched down at Marham in Valiant XD815 and found that the aircraft had been grounded.

We then drove down to Honington, our home base, which was having the runway resurfaced.

I believe that this was the last Valiant tanker operation and there was probably a grateful Lightning pilot for that.

[RetiredBA/BY]

On the 8th December 1964, shortly after we had left our refuelling drogue on a Lightning from Leconfield. we touched down at Marham in Valiant XD815 and found that the aircraft had been grounded.

We then drove down to Honington, our home base, which was having the runway resurfaced.

I believe that this was the last Valiant tanker operation and there was probably a grateful Lightning pilot for that.

Interesting comment!


I thought the last Valiant sortie was on. Dec 9th, after we were recalled from a hilohi in 865 of 207 sqn.

Perhaps the tankers were were grounded before the bombers with our SACEUR commitment.

Indeed time does fly, or at least it did for me for another 33 years !

[RetiredBA/BY]

Woops, , wrong button!

[Pontius Navigator]

Perhaps the tankers were were grounded before the bombers with our SACEUR commitment.

IIRC the Valiants remained with a nuclear, read-only, role for some weeks after the grounding.

Regarding refurbishment of a base. Apart from refurbishment and closure, a role change is the traditional excuse for a refurb. It goes like this:

A unit is posted on to an existing facility but the facility needs essential changes to make it fit for purpose, things like carpets and a new doorway for the bosses office. Some years later, say 2, the new boss wants but can't have as there is no money. A couple of decades later the original is still in use as it was OK for the previous X years. Come a new role and it is clearly totally unsuitable so . . .

[Fareastdriver]

I thought the last Valiant sortie was on. Dec 9th, after we were recalled from a hilohi in 865 of 207 sqn.

There is the possibility that my log book has the wrong date and it was the 9th.

What I remember was that as we crossed the threshold there were the lights of the Station Commander's car stopped in front of a Valiant that was approaching the holding point. We heard that he had driven in front of it because he could not contact Air Traffic to stop it taking off when he was told that they were grounded.

About 30 minutes after we landed a bomber landed and that was that.

It was in the dark at about 19.00hrs so does that tie up with your memories.

[RetiredBA/BY]

To be honest, after a couple of G and Ts and ny advancing years I can’t remember !

However we did stand QRA for some time after the grounding. I recall getting back to Marham on Xmas night for QRA duty only to be told I was no longer required !

That said, I did a couple of years on Victor 1 tankers after the Valiant, after that the only time I went back to Marham was with a Canberra with a near total electrical failure.

El Aden with grass is a bit unfair, quite a nice station really, with the delights of Swaffham and Norwich (Whites !) close by !

[5aday]

I was stationed at Marham as Assistant ATC from spring of 67 until early 69 and I'm sure I saw a Valiant from Boscombe Down doing a flypast. I recall it was white as well. I wonder if Boscombe Down would still have a have a record ?
Dave/5aday

[GeeRam]

I was stationed at Marham as Assistant ATC from spring of 67 until early 69 and I'm sure I saw a Valiant from Boscombe Down doing a flypast. I recall it was white as well. I wonder if Boscombe Down would still have a have a record ?
Dave/5aday

I don't think any Valiant ever flew again after the January 26th 1965 grounding order?
I believe the last Valiant sortie's were actually on 9th December 1964, the sole complete example, XD818 now at Cosford making the final bomber sortie on that day, with XD812 making the final tanker sortie on the same day.

[Pontius Navigator]

GeeRam, I would have agreed though I believe it was said here that one was flying for a few years though not regularly.

I do know that one or two detached to RRE I believe were very low hours, less than 100, and it was hoped to keep them flying. A number of rivets were checked looking for crack propagation and none found. Then one more for luck and that was it. I believe they also found cracks in unused spars as well.

[Shaft109]

Sorry for the slight creep but I recall seeing an in depth technical article about the alloy degrading in the spars, although it seems to have vanished from online.

It explained the concept of safe life as opposed to fail safe design and how the industry changed philosophy afterwards.

I understand the only thing that kept a on wing on one jet was the steel cross-brace in the wheel well.

Found one similar for those interested-

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200807.PDF

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1951/1951%20-%202503.html (https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1955/1955%20-%200807.PDF)

[wonderboysteve]

I was stationed at Marham as Assistant ATC from spring of 67 until early 69 and I'm sure I saw a Valiant from Boscombe Down doing a flypast. I recall it was white as well. I wonder if Boscombe Down would still have a have a record ?
Dave/5aday

I think your memory is entirely plausible!

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1968/1968%20-%200866.PDF

[GeeRam]

GeeRam, I would have agreed though I believe it was said here that one was flying for a few years though not regularly.

I do know that one or two detached to RRE I believe were very low hours, less than 100, and it was hoped to keep them flying. A number of rivets were checked looking for crack propagation and none found. Then one more for luck and that was it. I believe they also found cracks in unused spars as well.

Of course...........aging memory cells are playing tricks on me. I should have remembered XD816 being used into the late 60's, as a young teen I had a 'thing' for the Valiant, and my uncle (ex-REME WO) had been at the 50th Anniversary event at Abingdon in '68 and made me jealous as he had said there was a white Valiant that had flown in for it, which was XD816.
And so have just found this :)
June 1968 at Abingdon

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/17840547483_1b1f619dcd_b_b2ef1c2becaafa217b6994d2d5d1863c71f 9bef6.jpg

[5aday]

Thank you Gentlemen. You have restored my faith in my brain cells.
I took a Valiant pilot to Downsview (De havilland Canada) to give me some light relief
whilst ferrying a DHC Twin Otter back to the UK. We were delayed in Toronto whilst SOC GEN
made a couple of Euros fiddling with the purchase price. His name - John Mitchell and he was my
CAA Ops Inspector at the time. Lots of fun.

[GeeRam]

A bit further digging, and it seems the flight into Abingdon for the 50th was its final flight and thus the final flight of the type, being broken up a few years later. The nose section only of XD816 survives at Brooklands.

[ian16th]

XD816 was a 214 Sqdn a/c. In GeeRams picture the 214 loggo on the fin is quite clear. Also visible on the black painted section of the nose are the Rebecca Mk X shark fin aerials. We used to tell visitors that they were a 'sight' to aid the inflight refuelling!

It spent a lot of time as the 'test bed' for Flight Refuelling to fit the 1st bomb bay mounted Hose Drum Unit.

Because of this time as a 'hanger queen', its hours and cycles were low, and someone decided to keep and use it.

After the scrapping of the rest of the Valiant's, XD816 spent time at Boscombe. I dunno what they used it for.

[Fareastdriver]

It doesn't look quite the same without underwing tanks. Fuel capacity 12,500lbs each for those that do not know.

[ORAC]

Original comments include those by by Pontius Navigator, who should be able to elaborate.....

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/502446-valiant-tankers.html

XD816 went from 214 Sqd Marham (underwing tanks removed prior to transit flight at Marham) to Wisley 18 August 1964 for trial installation of rear spar repair scheme under KD/P/198/CB.5(c). Loaned to BAC Wisley 21 September 1964, At Wisley from 1 April 1965 - 26 November 1965 for re-spar & flight trials at that time had completed 2,012.05 flying hours & 829 landings. On 29 June 1967 passed to control of BAC (Operating) Ltd for fatigue flight trials, MOD loaned aircraft for display at Abingdon 23 April 1968, finally SOC 26 August 1970.

According to the book, 816 flew on 28 Apr 1968 in a flypast to mark the disbandment of Bomber Command.

[campbeex]

Maybe the Valiant should have it's own thread in Aviation History and Nostalgia? ;)