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CAP A330
14th Oct 2018, 20:31
Talk about inefficiency, one that must be solved !

split system breaker
14th Oct 2018, 21:06
Erm, how about building another runway?

G-CPTN
14th Oct 2018, 21:18
Rather than arriving ahead of landing time and then circling, how about adjust the speed of the flight so that aircraft arrive 'just-in-time'?

Not beyond the capability of man . . . (in this case 'man' is intended to signify the human race and is not meant to be gender-specific)

You would probably save fuel during the flight.

Gertrude the Wombat
14th Oct 2018, 21:22
Rather than arriving ahead of landing time and then circling, how about adjust the speed of the flight so that aircraft arrive 'just-in-time'?
The only time I spent a few minutes "circling over [an] airport" was exactly that - I knew perfectly well when the ATC closure was due to end but still managed to arrive whilst it had a few minutes to run.

IFMU
14th Oct 2018, 21:28
Many hours in gliders.

DaveReidUK
14th Oct 2018, 22:25
Rather than arriving ahead of landing time and then circling, how about adjust the speed of the flight so that aircraft arrive 'just-in-time'?

Not beyond the capability of man . . . (in this case 'man' is intended to signify the human race and is not meant to be gender-specific)

Sounds easy in theory, fiendishly difficult to achieve in practice, particularly if you're talking about achieving it at multiple airports.

West Coast
14th Oct 2018, 23:43
Adjusting speed isn't always feasible, occasionally get air traffic telling you to speed back up!
Aiming for a small regional airport I'll arrive early but into Gatwick in rush hour I'll ease off the gas a bit.

Being British, shouldn’t it be “ease off the petrol”?


It’s the Steven Wright in me asking.

Ascend Charlie
15th Oct 2018, 00:23
Circling OVER the airport is pretty rare, usually you are holding at some distance. But you would already know that, A330 CAPtain, at age 21.

pattern_is_full
15th Oct 2018, 03:13
I circle over the airport until the chemtrail tanks run dry. ;)

UniFoxOs
15th Oct 2018, 06:29
About two and a half hours, in a January storm, waiting for landing at LHR. As a (PPL) pax I was starting to get a bit concerned about the fuel state and I had read all my novel and was bored stiff.

DaveReidUK
15th Oct 2018, 06:32
But you would already know that, A330 CAPtain, at age 21.

Yes, a rather ill-judged choice of nom de plume.

My question is - what is the cheapest way I can get to a CPL from a PPL? The costs involved in becoming a commercial pilot, for me as a student anyway, are HUGE.

As someone studying for the PPL it was even worse than my landings. It was truly terrible.

tescoapp
15th Oct 2018, 06:39
I haven't been into a hold this year with 660 hours flown so far. Last year it was once when a huge thunderstorm went into the overhead of Hamburg.


They use slots now to stop things piling up.

As for the airports that are operating at nearly the max capacity virtually all day. They need to run stacks to keep a efficient supply to the director.

wiggy
15th Oct 2018, 07:06
Rather than arriving ahead of landing time and then circling, how about adjust the speed of the flight so that aircraft arrive 'just-in-time'?
.

Our policy is to try and do exactly that - adjust the speed to make STA at destination, however going into somewhere running at max capacity in peak hours you'll probably end up delaying somehow ( either circling or "linear" holding).

.and to be fair to the OP for once he/she hasn't offered us advice (based on his experience :hmm:) on how to solve the problem.

SpringHeeledJack
15th Oct 2018, 07:28
Once did 2hrs + in the hold over southern England (after an 8hr transatlantic flight) due to fog at all viable alternatives. We landed at LHR, stayed on the ground for 1hr, then repositioned to LGW with a 10min sector. The holding was tough psychologically, as you were anticipating a landing that didn't occur. However 2 landings for the price of one made up for it ;-)

I wouldn't be too hard on CAP A330, they are young and enthusiastic and perhaps their handle is the position they wish to achieve in the not too distant future ?

wiggy
15th Oct 2018, 08:01
SHJ

It's not the "handle" that's been the problem in the past ...there's a clue in something DaveReidUK posted..

Saintsman
15th Oct 2018, 09:12
I came back from Florida last month and we were delayed leaving because of a high jet-stream wind, which meant we would have arrived at Gatwick too early in the morning.

CAP A330
15th Oct 2018, 09:39
Our policy is to try and do exactly that - adjust the speed to make STA at destination, however going into somewhere running at max capacity in peak hours you'll probably end up delaying somehow ( either circling or "linear" holding).

.and to be fair to the OP for once he/she hasn't offered us advice (based on his experience :hmm:) on how to solve the problem.

the solution is very simple. Computers tell you what to do based on size, speed , distance, etc. It can be worked out in milliseconds and always gives you the optimal solution.

in fact, that’s what I did at previous jobs. Write programs to do all the hard work for you (work smarter not harder). Out with incompetent atc.

VP959
15th Oct 2018, 10:06
the solution is very simple. Computers tell you what to do based on size, speed , distance, etc. It can be worked out in milliseconds and always gives you the optimal solution.

in fact, that’s what I did at previous jobs. Write programs to do all the hard work for you (work smarter not harder). Out with incompetent atc.



The problem is that they can't. Taking just met, as an example, how accurate is any forecast wind speed and direction at any altitude? How well can we forecast things like CAT? The answer is not very well at all, at least to the accuracy needed to always ensure there are no unforeseen delays or early arrivals. Add in all the ground-related variables, like an aircraft going technical just before it's about to start, or problems with things like luggage not matching the passenger manifest, and you have to have an adaptive system that can be juggled on the fly. Stacks allow the landing system to work at full capacity at a very busy airport, so that aircraft can join the stack with a degree of variability in their arrival time and be called in to land at the safest and fastest rate possible. Even that has variability, given that spacing varies depending on type.

treadigraph
15th Oct 2018, 10:24
Out with incompetent atc

Er, did you mean "etc" or are you criticising controllers?

Andy_S
15th Oct 2018, 10:33
Well, he's already done BA pilots so I guess ATC would be a logical progression.

In all seriousness, do you sometimes get the impression there are pranksters out there just trying to provoke a response.......

Saintsman
15th Oct 2018, 10:38
ATC is spending big money developing AMAN / DMAN systems to try and avoid holding, but the software development is far from simple, though the basic idea is - i.e. don't take off unless you can arrive at your destination at the set time.

In order to achieve that goal, you need to account for many factors as it is not an easy as just planning the one flight. Take an aircraft flying from Australia to the UK, just think of how many aircraft are going to take off and land before that aircraft arrives at its destination? You can set its optimum speed so it arrives on the dot, but any deviations by any of the other aircraft going to the same destination is going to have an affect on its position in the queue and the likelihood of holding.

Of course, CAP A330 may be smart enough to write the coding to avoid this, but until he has written it, I suppose we will have to put up with incompetent ATC for a few more months...

Sir Niall Dementia
15th Oct 2018, 11:03
In all seriousness, do you sometimes get the impression there are pranksters out there just trying to provoke a response.......[/QUOTE]

And any research into his previous posts will reveal a wannabee who's never really learned anything about aviation..... It's called holding son, we all do it sometimes.

SND

Dont Hang Up
15th Oct 2018, 11:14
ATC is spending big money developing AMAN / DMAN systems to try and avoid holding, but the software development is far from simple, though the basic idea is - i.e. don't take off unless you can arrive at your destination at the set time.

In order to achieve that goal, you need to account for many factors as it is not an easy as just planning the one flight. Take an aircraft flying from Australia to the UK, just think of how many aircraft are going to take off and land before that aircraft arrives at its destination? You can set its optimum speed so it arrives on the dot, but any deviations by any of the other aircraft going to the same destination is going to have an affect on its position in the queue and the likelihood of holding.

Of course, CAP A330 may be smart enough to write the coding to avoid this, but until he has written it, I suppose we will have to put up with incompetent ATC for a few more months...
I started in the ATM research business some 28 years ago, coming from a computing background. The big talk then was all about 4D trajectories. Put routing and speed into the planning, write some clever software, and have a wonderfully efficient airspace and the end to all airborne holding.

Okay there are now some very good computer planning tools like AMAN & DMAN. But that 4D-trajectory remains the unattainable holy grail. The initial "how hard can it be?" enthusiasm quickly wanes when presented with the real-life complexities and the realisation that actually "ah, yes, it's pretty hard".