People Thinking Of Going CX

[lessonlearnt]

Now before I talk about why not to join CX, let me tell you my situation. So I joined as a Second Officer 2.5 years ago on COS08. Now for many of you thinking of joining CX, that is no longer available, if you join CX you will be joining under COS18. - degraded contract.

After 2.5 years of being in the "legacy" airline I am yet to do my STI (second officer technical interview) so that means that I probably will only be upgrading to JFO (junior first officer) in about 1.5 or 2 years time. Meaning I will be in a position which gains me absolutely NO experience for over 4 years +. - Not good for career progression.

Now is CX a career airline? Honestly I would so NO. It use to be. Expats that gave up lifestyle/family life in their home country back in the day received a Housing Allowance. This was a "good" package as they will leave CX with a house or 2 paid off and can afford the lifestyle/family life in HK at the moment. Space is not as much of a issue as it is for us COS08 pilots trying to cram a family in a 2 bed apartment because - CX does not give us a housing allowance. They give us an HKPA (pilot allowance) which honestly does not cover 50% of your rental if you lucky.

Lets talk about joining CX on the new COS18 - firstly you will be working much much harder than your fellow SO's for less money. Be very careful when you get given a copy of the contract to read it and think about future earnings. As life is very very expensive in HK and if you thinking of having a wife and kid, you will be in trouble. Your kids schooling allowance might look like a lot but take it from me.....its not. you will have to pay in a lot, and I mean a lot of extra cash to get your kids into the same school as your fellow SO's that joined a few months before you.... not ideal. And thats just school fees.

Working harder to get your hours up for money? This is going to lead to fatigue issues and increase rate of sickness - which your sickness days per year are also less. ( or in a way you have to earn them) - Not ideal.

Now lets talk upgrade time for SO's. I can comfortably say that if you join after 1 December 2018 you will be a SO for 4 - 5 + years. And believe me after 1 year you will loose all interest in this job. Join as a DEFO is probably even worse off, because yes you get paid more cash but you are all the way at the bottom of the seniority list. So you have to wait for everyone to upgrade to CAPT before you. You will be very frustrated that you passed by pilots probably that have 1000's of hours less experience than you and know nothing about the aviation world - goodluck. I say come here get the rating and leave.

I think if you considering coming here speak to your friends that are here, ask them for honest advice and they will tell you what they think. Ask a few friends because not everyone is unhappy here but everyone's situation is different.

Now the flying is boring as I have told you because SO's do absolutely nothing and you get treated like that in a way. Making bunks and being awake through the night is not what I envisioned that my career would be. Do I want to leave CX? mmmmm yes I will it just is a matter of time. As I said SO's hours are useless but my home country does recognise them. Probably the only country that does. I will wait for CX to pay me my bonuses and then I am out of here. This ship has no rudder and the Captain of the ship is not very liked I take it - read other posts.

The relationship between the UNION and Company is ZERO and it seems nothing is being said or done to rectify this..... Its a toxic environment that cannot be sustained. The AOA are not taking any kind of stand to better ALL pilots situation in this company. The Chairman needs to grow a pair or step down.....

We have been in Contract Compliance since I have joined here and has done nothing but disrupt my life and families and for what? Training Ban is hurting the company, but its hurting us as well - Upgrades too, and don't forget SO's upgrading means extra money. FO's that are waiting to upgrade to CAPT's are all on housing - so no PROBLEM.

Take my message the way you want. Not meaning to offend you when I say I would reconsider my options.

I WISH I read PPRUNE and listened to the advice given here............

[Air Profit]

As honest and as clear a warning against joining CX that you are likely to read, especially the last line. Thank you for taking the time to warn others. Wish you the very best in the future.

[morningcoffee]

Now before I talk about why not to join CX, let me tell you my situation. So I joined as a Second Officer 2.5 years ago on COS08. Now for many of you thinking of joining CX, that is no longer available, if you join CX you will be joining under COS18. - degraded contract.

After 2.5 years of being in the "legacy" airline I am yet to do my STI (second officer technical interview) so that means that I probably will only be upgrading to JFO (junior first officer) in about 1.5 or 2 years time. Meaning I will be in a position which gains me absolutely NO experience for over 4 years +. - Not good for career progression.

Now is CX a career airline? Honestly I would so NO. It use to be. Expats that gave up lifestyle/family life in their home country back in the day received a Housing Allowance. This was a "good" package as they will leave CX with a house or 2 paid off and can afford the lifestyle/family life in HK at the moment. Space is not as much of a issue as it is for us COS08 pilots trying to cram a family in a 2 bed apartment because - CX does not give us a housing allowance. They give us an HKPA (pilot allowance) which honestly does not cover 50% of your rental if you lucky.

Lets talk about joining CX on the new COS18 - firstly you will be working much much harder than your fellow SO's for less money. Be very careful when you get given a copy of the contract to read it and think about future earnings. As life is very very expensive in HK and if you thinking of having a wife and kid, you will be in trouble. Your kids schooling allowance might look like a lot but take it from me.....its not. you will have to pay in a lot, and I mean a lot of extra cash to get your kids into the same school as your fellow SO's that joined a few months before you.... not ideal. And thats just school fees.

Working harder to get your hours up for money? This is going to lead to fatigue issues and increase rate of sickness - which your sickness days per year are also less. ( or in a way you have to earn them) - Not ideal.

Now lets talk upgrade time for SO's. I can comfortably say that if you join after 1 December 2018 you will be a SO for 4 - 5 + years. And believe me after 1 year you will loose all interest in this job. Join as a DEFO is probably even worse off, because yes you get paid more cash but you are all the way at the bottom of the seniority list. So you have to wait for everyone to upgrade to CAPT before you. You will be very frustrated that you passed by pilots probably that have 1000's of hours less experience than you and know nothing about the aviation world - goodluck. I say come here get the rating and leave.

I think if you considering coming here speak to your friends that are here, ask them for honest advice and they will tell you what they think. Ask a few friends because not everyone is unhappy here but everyone's situation is different.

Now the flying is boring as I have told you because SO's do absolutely nothing and you get treated like that in a way. Making bunks and being awake through the night is not what I envisioned that my career would be. Do I want to leave CX? mmmmm yes I will it just is a matter of time. As I said SO's hours are useless but my home country does recognise them. Probably the only country that does. I will wait for CX to pay me my bonuses and then I am out of here. This ship has no rudder and the Captain of the ship is not very liked I take it - read other posts.

The relationship between the UNION and Company is ZERO and it seems nothing is being said or done to rectify this..... Its a toxic environment that cannot be sustained. The AOA are not taking any kind of stand to better ALL pilots situation in this company. The Chairman needs to grow a pair or step down.....

We have been in Contract Compliance since I have joined here and has done nothing but disrupt my life and families and for what? Training Ban is hurting the company, but its hurting us as well - Upgrades too, and don't forget SO's upgrading means extra money. FO's that are waiting to upgrade to CAPT's are all on housing - so no PROBLEM.

Take my message the way you want. Not meaning to offend you when I say I would reconsider my options.

I WISH I read PPRUNE and listened to the advice given here............
So go where exactly instead? You’re on a P2X rating.

[744drv]

In the last quarter 2 SOs upgraded to FO ........ so how long is it that you expect to be an SO again?

[Tea time]

Lesson learnt , an excellent post which accurately sums up the current situation at Cathay for anyone thinking of joining . It’s better to be forewarned and aware of all the facts before even thinking of taking a job
As for morning coffee’s jab ,obviously management , it was uncalled for and just toxic , not dissimilar to the current working environment at Cathay, Never forget for one second that the cost of living in HK is very expensive , about the only thing that is cheap is public transport which is truly amazing everything else is wickedly expensive . Don’t get me wrong I love HK but you need money lots of it to live well here

[Air Profit]

So go where exactly instead? You’re on a P2X rating.

MC, you sir are a cretin. You don't even have the respect to appreciate the heartfelt comments he has offered. What a soulless individual you must be.

[Apple Tree Yard]

So go where exactly instead? You’re on a P2X rating.

That's right MorningCoffee, wind up all the SO's in the company, many of which are already barely sitting on the edge of the fence when it comes to leaving CX. Your management brilliance is shining bright for all to see. As TeaTime said, you and your management cohorts are nothing but "toxic", in every way. Keep believing you are in control, right up to the point when your cubicle comes crashing down around you. Pathetic.

[Apple Tree Yard]

So go where exactly instead? You’re on a P2X rating.

That's right MorningCoffee, wind up all the SO's in the company, many of whom are already barely sitting on the edge of the fence when it comes to leaving CX. Your management brilliance is shining bright for all to see. As TeaTime said, you and your management cohorts are nothing but "toxic", in every way. Keep believing you are in control, right up to the point when your cubicle comes crashing down around you. Pathetic.

[pax britanica]

As long as its only the cubicle that comes crashing down,,, when I read the title of this thread I thought it was about Pax flying on CX-I have a trip to HK planned for feb 19 and reading this and looking back on the other threads makes me think I should avoid CX and stick with boring BA-is it really that bad?

[Tea time]

Pax B . No ! don’t cancel the passenger experience is still quite good , not anywhere as good as it used to be , but still better than some .The crews are very good despite the shocking relations between management and the aircrew .
i dare you to ask for salt and pepper with your meal

[Foxdeux]

Pax B . No ! don’t cancel the passenger experience is still quite good , not anywhere as good as it used to be , but still better than some .The crews are very good despite the shocking relations between management and the aircrew .
i dare you to ask for salt and pepper with your meal


I still prefer to take CX from YYZ to HKG because AC is just sh!t. CX cabin crew service is still good, food could be better but their PE is top notch in my opinion. Just a shame that they don't know how to treat the employees that count the most with respect.

[Slasher1]

Thank you lesson for what I believe to be a completely accurate and informative post.

There are many options toward using your talent and experience and wasting life's most precious resource (time) --especially considering where we've gone in a few short years--isn't worth it. I'd suggest folks go somewhere and be happy. It takes so long to build something good and is so easy to tear it down very quickly; I personally don't see any way to recover what has become of us (especially given how our 'solution' has been to propagate POS 18 -- should speak volumes). Just mitigate the bleeding and pain. I kinda look at it as a form of hospice for a company once great.

One thing I might disagree with though is I hope that your fellow crew members do treat you with dignity and respect. All the crew members are important, and any one of the operators might have to handle a difficult situation in a contingency. It's a team. That has generally been the case as I've seen it and I hope folks are still doing this. It's also been my experience that junior crew members often pick up on things missed -- especially when things get rushed. This is a very important role.

All the best and I'm sure you will enjoy your new career. I wouldn't wait too long; you never get the time back.

[Air Profit]

Another great post. Also ending with a poignant line: "you never get the time back". That is so true, and it's not worth wasting any of your life dealing with this horrible management. They ARE toxic, and will simply strip away any love for flying you may have. HK has turned into a complete disappointment for most, and that explains why people can't wait to find themselves working somewhere else.

[Porterboy]

Join as a DEFO is probably even worse off, because yes you get paid more cash but you are all the way at the bottom of the seniority list. So you have to wait for everyone to upgrade to CAPT before you. You will be very frustrated that you passed by pilots probably that have 1000's of hours less experience than you and know nothing about the aviation world - goodluck. I say come here get the rating and leave.
Is that so?! That sounds kind of backwards, but then again, I guess seniority is the rule of the land and so I suppose it's fair. On the bright side, I'm sure it would be a little easier to be stuck on FO wages for 10 years, than on SO pay which has become a bit of a joke with only 70% guaranteed.

This whole thread and the others are so discouraging to read. I long considered moving to Hong Kong and working at Cathay to be my ultimate career goal. I was thinking of heading over to Sunwing to get some time on a jet and for those lucrative summer European bases, and then apply to Cathay as a DFO (I don't think I could handle multiple years of sitting in the jumpseat). But holy reading this forum has made me reconsider my 'plan.' It's really frustrating to watch my dream being torn apart.

Honestly, it's frustrating just being a Canadian in general right now. They say there's a pilot shortage here, but all the majors here pay poverty wages for the first couple of years, have ****ty fatigue rules, etc etc.. and I wouldn't feel that proud working for any of them. Going overseas seemed like a much better alternative, especially Cathay and to a lesser extent, Emirates. But I guess that's not the case anymore. It appears that the only place one can go and make some decent money with decent working conditions is mainland china, which I'm not sure if I could handle for long. I thought about doing the Qantaslink thing on the Dash 8, but I get the impression that foreign pilots are really not appreciated there, and I can sort of see why. Have some family and friends there so that's too bad. Guess I'm going to just have to suck it up and live in the parents basement for the next little while.. :ugh:

[Busbuoy]

I think it's very nice of MC to make sure everyone understands management's position:
"You come to CX, be warned we have rigged the system so that the first 5+ years of your career will be of little or no future value to you anywhere else. By the time you have accumulated any experience of worth, 10+ years will have gone by. Then see how you feel about restarting that 10+ years behind your contemporaries who went to another carrier.
DO NOT TRY AND TELL US WE DID NOT WARN YOU!"

[mngmt mole]

Is that so?! That sounds kind of backwards, but then again, I guess seniority is the rule of the land and so I suppose it's fair. On the bright side, I'm sure it would be a little easier to be stuck on FO wages for 10 years, than on SO pay which has become a bit of a joke with only 70% guaranteed.

This whole thread and the others are so discouraging to read. I long considered moving to Hong Kong and working at Cathay to be my ultimate career goal. I was thinking of heading over to Sunwing to get some time on a jet and for those lucrative summer European bases, and then apply to Cathay as a DFO (I don't think I could handle multiple years of sitting in the jumpseat). But holy reading this forum has made me reconsider my 'plan.' It's really frustrating to watch my dream being torn apart.

Honestly, it's frustrating just being a Canadian in general right now. They say there's a pilot shortage here, but all the majors here pay poverty wages for the first couple of years, have ****ty fatigue rules, etc etc.. and I wouldn't feel that proud working for any of them. Going overseas seemed like a much better alternative, especially Cathay and to a lesser extent, Emirates. But I guess that's not the case anymore. It appears that the only place one can go and make some decent money with decent working conditions is mainland china, which I'm not sure if I could handle for long. I thought about doing the Qantaslink thing on the Dash 8, but I get the impression that foreign pilots are really not appreciated there, and I can sort of see why. Have some family and friends there so that's too bad. Guess I'm going to just have to suck it up and live in the parents basement for the next little while.. :ugh:

I can completely understand your frustration, but like a lot of things in like, looking at something with "rose coloured glasses" usually means disappointment. Once upon a time, your idea about CX would have been valid. Now however, it is the graveyard of pilot careers. Combine a substandard salary (relative to cost of living in HK, which is horrendous), inadequate housing options, inadequate medical, inadequate work rules, inadequate fatigue concern, inadequate management, and you have a toxic environment that will sap the life from you.

The bottom line is this old aviation adage: "better to be on the ground wishing you were up there, than be up there wishing you were on the ground". Translate into what most of the CX pilots feel, the majority of whom are actively making plans to leave. Good luck, but don't head down the cul de sac of wasting any of your life at CX.

[Porterboy]

I can completely understand your frustration, but like a lot of things in like, looking at something with "rose coloured glasses" usually means disappointment. Once upon a time, your idea about CX would have been valid. Now however, it is the graveyard of pilot careers. Combine a substandard salary (relative to cost of living in HK, which is horrendous), inadequate housing options, inadequate medical, inadequate work rules, inadequate fatigue concern, inadequate management, and you have a toxic environment that will sap the life from you.

The bottom line is this old aviation adage: "better to be on the ground wishing you were up there, than be up there wishing you were on the ground". Translate into what most of the CX pilots feel, the majority of whom are actively making plans to leave. Good luck, but don't head down the cul de sac of wasting any of your life at CX.
What's sad is that even with this new COS18, I'd be better off, at least financially at Cathay compared to AC, Westjet, Transat, etc. Everything is rock bottom here. It's extremely frustrating since our neighbours to the south are making six figures within two years of being an FO!! I wish we could get green cards as pilots :(

I realize that if I don't apply to Cathay, Emirates, etc. I'm contributing to possibly increasing wages for you guys, but the same goes for here at home. If all the Canadian pilots bugger off to other countries, maybe wages might go up here in this freezing country. I'm quite conflicted!

Guess it all comes down to the lifestyle at the end of the day. Just wish I knew who could offer that in today's job market. Working 14 hour days for 56k a year in the most expensive cities in Canada and giving half of it to Mr. Trudeau sounds terrible, but so does making decent money but having to deal with awful/incompetent managers and breathing in polluted air while living in a shoe-box until an upgrade to Captain a decade later..

[Clear_sky]

Porterboy,

You won’t be making descent money with COS 18. You really need to look at the cost of everything in Hong Kong and compare the package as a whole. Add that to the fact your now stuck in a place with a much lower standard of living and it can result in a pretty miserable existence.

Hard to appreciate until you live here.

Seen plenty of guys even on COS 08 go through the process once the shiny jet syndrome wears off after the first 12 months or so.

Please take this seriously.

[arse]

FOR THOSE CONSIDERING JOINING AS A SO AT CX:

Posted by NC back in Mar 18. Still pretty accurate today:

I have started this thread simply to give what is likely to be a more accurate guide to upgrading to First Officer and then Captain at CX.

The first thing to watch out for – being told what the “current” time to upgrade/command is. That only applies to those that joined 4 or 11 years ago. Currently, those being upgraded to First Officer joined 3- 4 years ago. Those on Command course joined around 11 years ago.

We have recruited just under 2,000 pilots in the last 11 years and we have only exceeded 100 command courses/year on one occasion so far. We have recruited 700 in the last three years.


We have over 500 Second Officers now and by years end we expect to have almost 800 with only 10 SOs to be upgraded to FO this year. (Due to new Rostering policies they now need a lot more SOs and a lot fewer FOs)

I’ve used actual figures from 2011-2017 inclusive and used CX projections for 2018.


Based on that, a new joiner with DOJ 31/12/18 would upgrade to FO 6.6 years and to Captain in around 30.3 years. Now that is using an average rate for a, presumably, growing airline. I say presumably as we have actually remained the same size for the last three years.

If I ‘assume’ we will grow again at the same rate we did for the previous two decades then time to FO reduces to just over five years and time to command reduces to 17 years. My assumption of growth rate is OPTIMISTIC given the management plan for 2018-20 and the current industrial impasse in regards to the training ban. In other words – it will probably be longer than 5/17 years.



So you may be told upgrade to FO is 3 years and command time is 10.5 years – which it WAS for those that joined in 2007 and 2014. If you are planning on a career here – plan on 5-6 years as an SO. Plan on 17+ years till command(regardless of whether you join as an FO or SO)

(By the way – top increment on SO scale is reached after three years service. For a FirstOfficer it is after about 13 years. )

[Porterboy]

Fair enough Clear Sky!

[morningcoffee]

I think it's very nice of MC to make sure everyone understands management's position:
"You come to CX, be warned we have rigged the system so that the first 5+ years of your career will be of little or no future value to you anywhere else. By the time you have accumulated any experience of worth, 10+ years will have gone by. Then see how you feel about restarting that 10+ years behind your contemporaries who went to another carrier.
DO NOT TRY AND TELL US WE DID NOT WARN YOU!"
I suppose I should expect the usual garbage replies. Where do you go instead? Ezy? Ryan? 1.5 million hkg in debt for a cadetship that leads to a temp contract that often doesn’t lead to full time employment.
Instead of sh*tting on the new joiners for coming to CX have a listen to them telling you the options out there in 2018, with an apparent pilot shortage.
The #1 bitch I get from S/Os is the fatcat B scalers telling them CX is rubbish while utterly clueless about what’s out there in 2018 for guys starting out.
We’re 10 replies in already, total number of better options thus far - ZERO

*crickets*

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Porterboy, the question to ask yourself is: where would you go next? Because you ain't gonna spend your career in CX, I can guarantee that.
Think POS18 is bad? Wait for the next one.
My advice is, try to go to your career airline earlier than later. If you need to come to CX for the rating, do it. But is a 747 rating useful nowadays?

As for lessonlearnt, yes, the training ban is slowing down our careers progression. But the decision to go with 2 SOs on long haul flights is having a much bigger impact on an SO career progression.

​​​
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[Porterboy]

Porterboy, the question to ask yourself is: where would you go next?
Great question... I have no idea. The options out there aren't great. I can hardly pay my student loans where I'm at. Should've chosen another career or gone to the military in hindsight... That Michael Moore movie about being a pilot in the states applies just as much, if not more to Canada than the US right now.

My advice is, try to go to your career airline earlier than later. If you need to come to CX for the rating, do it. But is a 747 rating useful nowadays?
Out of pure curiosity, is the 747 historically the only aircraft to be offered for DFO or do they ever offer other fleet types? If not, are you ever able to transfer or are you frozen on type for good?

[unitedabx]

Great question... I have no idea. The options out there aren't great. I can hardly pay my student loans where I'm at. Should've chosen another career or gone to the military in hindsight... That Michael Moore movie about being a pilot in the states applies just as much, if not more to Canada than the US right now.

Out of pure curiosity, is the 747 historically the only aircraft to be offered for DFO or do they ever offer other fleet types? If not, are you ever able to transfer or are you frozen on type for good?

20 year captains can't get off the 747 so you never would.

[Australopithecus]

Porterboy, your assumptions about how foreigners are treated in Australia need recalibration. That said, taking a DHC-8 job may be at best a five year deal (after which you can apply for permanent residency then citizenship). You may be then able to transition internally to QF, but there are no guarantees.

Can't you meet a nice American to marry, even as a stop-gap measure?

[Tea time]

Porter boy,
have you considered Dragon air above Cathay , also have a look at Korean , and some of the airlines in Japan their pay isn’t fantastic but it’s a great place to live , clean air , good food , sadly neither of which HK have . A number of airlines in China have commuting rosters which may work for you . Look on some of the aviation recruiting sites , failing that take a position at CX, but be warned the salary sounds great looking at it in Canadian terms . Once you get here and start paying for rent, electricity for air cons which you can’t live without , and food that doesn’t come from China it becomes very expensive .
my electricity bill in summer runs about CAD$ 600 a month. Go to a bar and have a beer you are looking at CAD $ 10 plus . A small cauliflower $10 butter $12 . The list goes on it’s not a cheap place to live as an expat . If you like local food you can live a bit cheaper . All I’m saying is better to be forewarned than find out after the fact and COS 18 with 6 years + as an SO living in 400sq ft isn’t a great morale booster . This job used to be amazing , it certainly was when I joined decades ago sadly today it’s a very different story and sometimes the grass is not always greener

[lessonlearnt]

Morningcoffee

Thanks for the read and reply. I see lots of people here think you're management. I am new here so I will hold my judgement, BUT

Thanks for bringing that up to my attention. Yes I have a P2X rating but believe it or not, I have some experience before joining CX. So yes companies in my home country will look at me and they are. I have decided to take CX for everything I possibly can. List below....

1. My TT bonuses (every year we get a experience bonus which is just shy of 900 000hkd over 6 years - so I have 4.5 years left) and please note to all new joiners this is a thing of the past, so already you are loosing out coming here if you have experience.

2. I have and will take my maximum sick leave - it makes life so easy to extend my leave or days off - and I'm entitled to them. I hear the SO sick rate is climbing....Do you blame us? NEW JOINERS you will have to earn your sick leave and this is gong to suck when you trying to get fly more hours to pay your tax/rent etc and you sick.....

3. After getting a nice big shiny jet rating I am GONE!!!! Now its taken a little longer than I expected. But I feel sorry for people joining now as a SO......;4-5 years + for a upgrade. It sucks trust me.

If you are management you should clearly see there is a issue in this airline thats costing them massively.

Maybe wake up and smell the morning coffee.

[lessonlearnt]

Porterboy

I am honestly not telling you not to come here. Im telling you things from my perspective. You can take advice or not. I did not when I joined this airline and it has backfired.

As I said people are happy here, you find less and less but there are some around town. The majority are not and are looking for a CXit. But I believe you should do what you want. I can comfortably say I would not recommend anyone to join this airline because that recommendation would be a terrible one for someone looking to build his/her career and enjoy the flying.

Come as a DEFO. You will have to wait for currently 600ish SO's to upgrade to CAPT before you get a sniff. And everyone of them will be your senior when you try staff travel, of bid for bases one day (trust me there will be no more bases) or even just requesting a flight. When the SO upgrades eventually he is your senior and he has the request bid higher than yours. But you get paid more - well not actually if you look at the COS18 you will be on.

But its your choice and everyones choice out there to do what you want to do. But be warned......

[flyera359]

Great question... I have no idea. The options out there aren't great. I can hardly pay my student loans where I'm at. Should've chosen another career or gone to the military in hindsight... That Michael Moore movie about being a pilot in the states applies just as much, if not more to Canada than the US right now.

Out of pure curiosity, is the 747 historically the only aircraft to be offered for DFO or do they ever offer other fleet types? If not, are you ever able to transfer or are you frozen on type for good? -

For Porterboy, I completely understand where you are coming from. I'm not sure if you have lots of experience or not. If not, then CX is an option just keep in mind that it is not a career airline especially on the COS18 package. While it does demean the rest, if it is your only option, we really are in no place to judge. Build the hours and get out. It's becoming the RyanAir of Asia. However, if you do have experience, I urge you to look around. There are many contracts in Asia at the moment that are better than COS18, such as Air Japan, even HKA commuting contract, some chinese carriers, corporate a new venture opening from Japan Airlines, etc... Even the middle east, while not much better, will give you the pay and experience to get directly into Air Canada. There are many options. I just don't see people with some experience being so desperate that career COS18 is their only choice.

MoringCoffee, I'm not here to berate you or crap all over SO's coming to join. The options you requested are as stated above. Again, for a hong kong local with no experience, I agree the cadet program is probably one of the best choices, besides funding it yourself. (Keep in mind Half of the FTA training costs, is almost the cost for a commercial multi in the USA/Canada. They would be better off funding outside of cathay and joining on an AE course with no training costs being deducted and better MPF) However, I would hope that these cadets keep in mind after training, they owe nothing to cathay, they can be expats anywhere else, and they will have options when they get their P1.

I think the point of my post is to echo what the others are saying. This is not a career airline! While I can't completely judge those without any experience joining, those who do have it and saying their are no choices in their countries, need to keep looking around. Sadly, and at the risk of turning away people with good experience, this job is not for you.

[AQIS Boigu]

Since 2009 we have been telling the COS08/HKPA guys that the deal was ****.

What makes us think that COS18 will deter people from joining when they continue to convert the package into CAD$ and Rand.

[MrAndy]

As a pilot career, the principle problems with being an SO at CX is summed up as follows: P2X hours counting for minimal experience, coupled with extended and uncertain career progression, in one of the most expensive places in the world during a pilot shortage. It fails a cost-benefit analysis in this current economic climate, and is uncompetitive to other flying positions offered by other air operators. Even CX’s next door competitors, like HKE or HKA, offers right seat experience for similar experience levels at higher pay and faster career progression. Just the right seat experience alone is worth the weight in gold.

To be frank, making the career competitive again is quite easy for CX if they can only see and address these problems. But without recognising there is a problem, well... what more can anyone say?

[Slasher1]

To recap:

You have NO ONE saying it's great--not even that it's good or even OK or mediocre. You have NO ONE saying things are trending up or likely to get better (or even break even); most say things are going rapidly in the other direction. I don't think I've seen really ANYONE say how happy they are. The best (potentially management) trolls can say is "well, it may not be as bad as blah blah blah." Think about that--the best anyone can say is 'well, it may not be as bad as.......' This of a once crown jewel airline where people were fighting to get in the door.

Have you heard ANYONE say anything positive about career aspects here ? There are certainly SOME good things--but how many of these had anything to do with the job or job satisfaction (or even potential career progression) ?

Seniority is everything in any airline career. So ANY time you spend parked somewhere is lost money and lost lifestyle if you go anywhere else. In POS 18, you're looking at a contract that IMHO is substantially worse than most US major low cost carriers (and that's living in Hong Kong with no labor laws to speak of and phenomenal costs).

Pretty much EVERYONE who has left (and cares to drop by and say something) has said how happy they are and how good their life is going (and back on track)--and what a good decision they made TO leave. Even if they've gone to a non-flying job. They didn't have to do this; I think a great deal of it is out of legitimate concern for others. It's a great catharsis to make a mistake (or not necessarily a mistake at the time but circumstances changed and turned out badly toward the end) and relay your experience to others--as pilots we do this extensively by passing on info to our fellow pilots. Have you read anything from anyone who's left which says they might have made a mistake by leaving ? For those staying have you heard anything other than "well, I'm older and kinda stuck ?" If you were driving a car (at least with some experience behind you and really wanting to get somewhere vice playing bulletproof redneck) would you try to blast through a field of quicksand, or would you look for a somewhat longer route around where you wouldn't get stuck and lose your car (and potentially you) ?

A person can talk himself or herself into some pretty crazy things. I might suggest speaking with others whose opinion you value. Often I've gotten a good 'sanity check' by bouncing ideas off others -- it's OK to abandon a bad idea.

If you do decide to take the plunge anyway, and wind up wondering where you went wrong, well it was right here. You were more than warned about what you were getting into.

Life's short and no one knows how many todays one gets. I wouldn't waste them.

[Porterboy]

Porter boy,
have you considered Dragon air above Cathay [...]
I’ve considered Dragon, but on top of being shy of the required experience, it looks like it’s the exact same contract being offered for Cathay DFO’s; pilots of which get to fly around the world, not just south east Asia. Is there a hidden benefit that I’m not seeing about Dragon? Quick command maybe?

I’ve seen these other contracts ie: Korean, ANA, Xiamen, etc. I don’t think I’d do very well as a commuter to be honest. I’d much prefer to live at the base of where I’m flying and living in those places (Seoul, Tokyo, etc) sounds cool, but I don’t think it would be as livable for an English speaking person compared with Hong Kong.

I think I’ve been sufficiently turned off from applying to CX. This is sad. I think I might try my luck at Qlink. If I could play my cards right and get PR/citizenship and later get on with Qantas, I think that would be a career worth having. I don’t understand how two countries with similar populations and similar living costs, etc can have such different pilot pay. Just to give an example, at Qlink for a DFO on the Q400, they pay ~80k. The exact same position here at Jazz pays 38.96/hr (37k @80hrs/mo). Tax is very similar. I can’t believe it.

[quadspeed]

https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-wannabes/469949-cx-so-all-you-need-know.html

As written by a bunch of SO's seven years ago. Not much has changed it seems.

[VforVENDETTA]

As long as its only the cubicle that comes crashing down,,, when I read the title of this thread I thought it was about Pax flying on CX-I have a trip to HK planned for feb 19 and reading this and looking back on the other threads makes me think I should avoid CX and stick with boring BA-is it really that bad?

Regarding the comment someone else made about the PE (passenger experience) let us all know how your experience is when one of us goes sick or fatigued, or just doesn't care enough to answer his/her phone when a pilot is needed last minute and your flight is delayed by hours, a day or just canceled outright. Tell us all how it goes stranded unexpectedly and perhaps missing the biz meeting or wedding you were planning on attending. Not that the crap degrades pax inflight service is anything to be impressed about anymore but let's see if you'll find comfort in it after I don't give a **** to show up for work on that day or refuse to help and save the delay or cancelation.

Make no mistake, for every little bit less I get, a little bit less you get. The cabin service you get is only one part of what you get for what you pay. If I'm not happy, you the passenger won't be happy. Even if I'm not going out of my way to make it happen. I have to give less if I'm given less and that I very very intentionally I make sure of. If I don't give less, then I'm just a chump. The end result flows downhill into your lap dear passenger. Enjoy your "experience". No hard feelings.

[captsf]

Porterboy, if you can get a gig at QLink, absolutely take it! The road to permanent residency may seem arduous but is achievable, and your lifestyle and future career prospects would thank you for it.

I know of a few kiwis and aussies returning to their respective motherships with P2X jet time also for those asking what else is out there....

[Porterboy]

Saw this posted in the KA thread in the wannabees forum. This is awful. wow. Especially considering how long a new comer will be stuck on the SO/FO wages. I thought it was a general rule to spend no more than 30% of your salary on rent/mortgage, but with this pay that rule gets you nothing remotely nice. Try 50% or more to live decently... Only way this would be worth it is DEC :bored: Had to see it to really believe it.

[Porterboy]

Porterboy, if you can get a gig at QLink, absolutely take it! The road to permanent residency may seem arduous but is achievable, and your lifestyle and future career prospects would thank you for it.

I know of a few kiwis and aussies returning to their respective motherships with P2X jet time also for those asking what else is out there....
No kidding! I'll have to polish up that resume.

[Numero Crunchero]

Something to consider for anyone thinking of joining as a Direct Entry First Officer. You will be the most junior FO for roster bids until all 600+ Second Officers that joined ahead of you have been upgraded to First Officer. Then you will finally move off the bottom of the bidding barrel.

So for the first 5-7 years you will have zero chance of bidding any good trips - or getting commuter friendly rosters due to your lack of seniority. You will get the dregs - the India patterns etc. Lots of 2 pilot night flying.

Caveat Emptor

[reazasassain]

The forums are filled with people who are happy to tell others how bad it is at Cathay. What a piece of sh#t Cos18 is. And how far the mighty have fallen. I won't disagree that things are bad here. In my limited time it has gotten worse never better. The policies continually morph with more focus on intimidation than welfare. Which would never be legal in first world countries.

What I don't hear is what are you going to do about it? The only answer seems to be leave. But what if everyone one of you banded together and said enough. NO to COS18, NO to the intimidation policies, NO More. Are you willing to do something about?. Have a look in the mirror and ask if you are just along for the ride only worrying about what is good for you. Or are you willing to stand up and say enough?

[Tea time]

reazasassain (https://www.pprune.org/members/166648-reazasassain)

finally someone has hit the nail on the head , Sadly this Union is made up of people too gutless to walk out , I only have a few years left so I really don’t care if I go now or in a couple of years . However I was more than ready to walk in 99 and I would go out in a heartbeat now if everyone else was prepared to stand together . The problem is that there are any number of pilots willing to break ranks and walk over you in order to promote their own agenda . So unless we as a group are ready to take any measures necessary to prevent scabs , very little will be achieved which is why people are leaving . The AOA is an absolute waste of time and has been for years . But a Union is only ever as good as the weakest link .
if everyone walked the airline would be shut down for 7-10 days max until the shareholders started demanding solutions . No one should be allowed back until all,our demands are met . But I don’t think there are enough pilots with strong enough spines to achieve that goal

[Flex88]

If you're thinking of joining - the COS18 info given above is a typical glossed over parlour trick...

ASK QUESTIONS !!!!

How much does schooling cost for children (ESF etc)

What are my medical benefits AND what are the limits ?

What is the Dental Coverage and what does it cover ??

Are my annual travel tickets (FOC) for my family and myself to travel home "Confirmed NOSUB" ???

If you don't ask, don't even think of bitching about it at a later date.. You own it.

[MrAndy]

No kidding! I'll have to polish up that resume.

Porterboy, being a Canadian myself, I can understand how working 14 hours a day on some 703/704/705 gig at a salary similar to someone at Tim Hortons can be a major motivator to leave the country. But honestly, because you are always working so hard, there are better options that would open overtime, and I would say just hang tight. At the end of the day, you still got clean air, no overpopulated streets, and housing prices that are still significantly less with more value than anything HK has to offer. Also, if you do decide to leave, don’t do it just because some operator out there is brandishing a higher pay check either, because there is typically a good reason why.

[CxEx2]

I left earlier this year as an SO. I completely agree with lesson learnt and the other posts on here. Prior to my interview a couple of years ago I did the standard searches such as "working for CX" and "What it's like to live in Hong Kong" and the writing was on the wall there I just would not believe it.

To add to this when I was at the gate prior to attending my second interview I got chatting to someone who was an FO on the 777. His exact words were "this is not a happy company, it isn't good at all like it used to be and I would recommend you spend your time working for a regional carrier as an FO". So anyway I came anyway because there weren't any other options at the time, maybe he was just an unhappy employee, and I guess I didn't want to believe it.

So now I am back in my home country in Australia. The dark circles under my eyes from the fatigue of working there and living in Hong Kong are gone. The toxicity is obviously gone and I actually get to fly an airplane again. I get less days off (more leave) and less money yet I feel much more awake and healthy than I ever did in Hong Kong and this going back to a turbo-prop aircraft. I also don't get sweaty balls 5 minutes after leaving my apartment to go to work which is also a bonus you take for granted in your home country! Not hearing the word cannot on a daily basis is also a blessing in the skies.

With regards to living costs I was paying close to 20K per month and sharing with other people. That is 40% of the 1st year monthly SO salary on COS08. A simple google search rule of thumb is 30% so I just "cannot" imagine how it would be doable on POS08 in the long term especially if you have a family or anything like that. Good luck to everyone.

Cheers,

[Summit to Sea]

@Porterboy

Apply, get a free holiday out of it, an hour in the SIM for free (777 or 747) and get some great experience of what is required of you at an interview so when you apply to Qlink or elsewhere, you have that extra advantage 👍

[Frogman1484]

If you're thinking of joining - the COS18 info given above is a typical glossed over parlour trick...

ASK QUESTIONS !!!!

How much does schooling cost for children (ESF etc)

What are my medical benefits AND what are the limits ?

What is the Dental Coverage and what does it cover ??

Are my annual travel tickets (FOC) for my family and myself to travel home "Confirmed NOSUB" ???

If you don't ask, don't even think of bitching about it at a later date.. You own it.

also ask how much is the company paying towards my provident fund? The answer is ZERO!

[unitedabx]

also ask how much is the company paying towards my provident fund? The answer is ZERO!

Prospective airline pilots MUST do their research. Career prospects, actual flying, benefits, remuneration must all be considered carefully. Please don't hang onto fairy stories you mother or father told you about the good old days when CX ruled the clouds. That fairytale is now a nightmare.

[DrongoDriver]

Firstly let me just admit my massive bias for the following.

Porterboy, I’m sure coming to Qlink would be a lot better than SO at CX but you’re also going to be taking jobs away from local Aussies who get out of GA by getting into Qlink and other regionals.

This new international pathway is just a way to avoid training costs. There is no pilot shortage in Aus. There are a metric ton of guys flying bugsmashers in GA and hoping for a leg up into a regional. Those positions are now getting filled with international applicants whilst the locals get shafted.

By by all means head to a country with no GA industry and live the expat life. But don’t :mad: over those beginning in the industry either. We all started somewhere and this new trend of bringing in the least costly candidate hurts everyone. I mean just look at CX!

[Porterboy]

Firstly let me just admit my massive bias for the following.

Porterboy, I’m sure coming to Qlink would be a lot better than SO at CX but you’re also going to be taking jobs away from local Aussies who get out of GA by getting into Qlink and other regionals.

This new international pathway is just a way to avoid training costs. There is no pilot shortage in Aus. There are a metric ton of guys flying bugsmashers in GA and hoping for a leg up into a regional. Those positions are now getting filled with international applicants whilst the locals get shafted.

By by all means head to a country with no GA industry and live the expat life. But don’t :mad: over those beginning in the industry either. We all started somewhere and this new trend of bringing in the least costly candidate hurts everyone. I mean just look at CX!
I totally understand where you're coming from and that's why I said this earlier in the thread..
[...] I thought about doing the Qantaslink thing on the Dash 8, but I get the impression that foreign pilots are really not appreciated there, and I can sort of see why. [...]
I know I'd be going in and taking people's jobs which is why I'm hesitant to apply. But after I wrote that post I received a couple PM's painting a different picture so I don't know how to really feel about this. At the end of the day, I spent over $100k on training and my intent is to go somewhere that will pay me enough for me to feel like that was a worthy investment and at the same time permit me to have a decent quality of life. So far the options are very limited and it feels like the list is shrinking by the minute! Tell me you wouldn't at the very least consider Qlink if you were doing the exact same job for less than half of the pay being offered by them. It's tempting that's all I'm saying. :\

[Flex88]

What's sad is that even with this new COS18, I'd be better off, at least financially at Cathay compared to AC, Westjet, Transat, etc. Everything is rock bottom here. It's extremely frustrating since our neighbours to the south are making six figures within two years of being an FO!! I wish we could get green cards as pilots :(

I realize that if I don't apply to Cathay, Emirates, etc. I'm contributing to possibly increasing wages for you guys, but the same goes for here at home. If all the Canadian pilots bugger off to other countries, maybe wages might go up here in this freezing country. I'm quite conflicted!

Guess it all comes down to the lifestyle at the end of the day. Just wish I knew who could offer that in today's job market. Working 14 hour days for 56k a year in the most expensive cities in Canada and giving half of it to Mr. Trudeau sounds terrible, but so does making decent money but having to deal with awful/incompetent managers and breathing in polluted air while living in a shoe-box until an upgrade to Captain a decade later..

Captain a decade later - I think you're being WAY optimistic.... Oh and by the way, on the new COS, Captains will only be able to afford a shoe box as well.

[Porterboy]

Captain a decade later - I think you're being WAY optimistic.... Oh and by the way, on the new COS, Captains will only be able to afford a shoe box as well.
Don't even have to mention it Flex...

I think I’ve been sufficiently turned off from applying to CX. This is sad.

(posted earlier in thread)...

[CX ex]

As others may have mentioned before, the money is a very small part of the equation.

Do not deprive yourself of the experience and fun of paying your dues. If I look back on my 25+ years of flying I can tell you that many of the best times were had when I was making the least amount of money.

The money will come, and if you are like 90% of the pilots out there you will have the same amount of money left over each month whether you're making 1k, 10k or 100k

[DrongoDriver]

I totally understand where you're coming from and that's why I said this earlier in the thread..

I know I'd be going in and taking people's jobs which is why I'm hesitant to apply. But after I wrote that post I received a couple PM's painting a different picture so I don't know how to really feel about this. At the end of the day, I spent over $100k on training and my intent is to go somewhere that will pay me enough for me to feel like that was a worthy investment and at the same time permit me to have a decent quality of life. So far the options are very limited and it feels like the list is shrinking by the minute! Tell me you wouldn't at the very least consider Qlink if you were doing the exact same job for less than half of the pay being offered by them. It's tempting that's all I'm saying. :\

I totally understand your point and am sure it will be a great career move for you but you’ll be “proving” the strategy that so many CEO/CFOs have used to wreck legacy airlines.

There are two case studies (that I can think of right now) of this happening in Aus already:
1. Seaplanes. Even though minimums have gone down for almost every low hour job (one of our hangar rats just got a night IFR job with 250TT), most seaplane jobs down here still require 25k hours with 17 million water landings and 10 hours in the space shuttle. Why? So they can then turn around and say “we can’t find qualified candidates here so can we hire guys from overseas?”. It’s quite common to be in a seaplane doing a scenic over Sydney harbour and hearing a Canadian/American voice from up front. As such there are almost no junior seaplane pilots anymore.
2. Parachuting. Not so much the jump pilots but the instructors and tandem masters, the money makers. 10+ years ago there used to be 5 clubs per major city doing drops and teaching instructors/tandem masters. Now that a certain million dollar corporation have come in and use foreign tandem masters, there’s no need for those clubs. So from 5-6 planes needing 5-6 jump pilots, we now have 1-2 planes needing 1-2 jump pilots.

From your previous post I believe you’re Canadian? If so I’m guessing you went through (or are still going through) the hard yards in their GA industry too. I reckon you’d be pretty ticked off if Aussies started coming over and taking all the 1900/King Air/Caravan/Dash jobs leaving all the Canadians stuck on old Never-gos and the like.

If I were you I’d head to Sunwings or a LCC in Europe (where they’ve already killed their GA industry), get a command + few thousand hours on a 737/320 then go after a lucrative commuting contract in mainland China.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had the pleasure to fly with some foreign crews and they’ve all been top notch. I just don’t agree with them taking full time jobs until all the local boys have filled those positions (without having to adher to fairytale minimums).

[Porterboy]

From your previous post I believe you’re Canadian? If so I’m guessing you went through (or are still going through) the hard yards in their GA industry too. I reckon you’d be pretty ticked off if Aussies started coming over and taking all the 1900/King Air/Caravan/Dash jobs leaving all the Canadians stuck on old Never-gos and the like.
Already happening here too. I have no idea how they manage to entice foreigners to come fly here. If you think COS18 at Cathay is bad, check out what's on offer here. But yes, I get it, and I'm most likely not going to apply for the reasons you stated. It just wouldn't feel right. Maybe instead of fleeing I should just try and find a way I can help fight for better conditions here at home so the next generation doesn't have to put up with what we do right now. Emirates is crap, Cathay is now crap, and I couldn't put up with the other places (China, Qatar, etc). I guess I really don't have a choice.

[Australopithecus]

I totally understand your point and am sure it will be a great career move for you but you’ll be “proving” the strategy that so many CEO/CFOs have used to wreck legacy airlines.

There are two case studies (that I can think of right now) of this happening in Aus already:
1. Seaplanes. Even though minimums have gone down for almost every low hour job (one of our hangar rats just got a night IFR job with 250TT), most seaplane jobs down here still require 25k hours with 17 million water landings and 10 hours in the space shuttle. Why? So they can then turn around and say “we can’t find qualified candidates here so can we hire guys from overseas?”. It’s quite common to be in a seaplane doing a scenic over Sydney harbour and hearing a Canadian/American voice from up front. As such there are almost no junior seaplane pilots anymore.
2. Parachuting. Not so much the jump pilots but the instructors and tandem masters, the money makers. 10+ years ago there used to be 5 clubs per major city doing drops and teaching instructors/tandem masters. Now that a certain million dollar corporation have come in and use foreign tandem masters, there’s no need for those clubs. So from 5-6 planes needing 5-6 jump pilots, we now have 1-2 planes needing 1-2 jump pilots.

From your previous post I believe you’re Canadian? If so I’m guessing you went through (or are still going through) the hard yards in their GA industry too. I reckon you’d be pretty ticked off if Aussies started coming over and taking all the 1900/King Air/Caravan/Dash jobs leaving all the Canadians stuck on old Never-gos and the like.

If I were you I’d head to Sunwings or a LCC in Europe (where they’ve already killed their GA industry), get a command + few thousand hours on a 737/320 then go after a lucrative commuting contract in mainland China.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had the pleasure to fly with some foreign crews and they’ve all been top notch. I just don’t agree with them taking full time jobs until all the local boys have filled those positions (without having to adher to fairytale minimums).

One small problem with that. Two, actually:

Foreign pilots get paid the same as every other DHC-8 pilot, so your assertion that foreigners are a ploy to keep wages low is faulty.

How many Australian pilots are flying in the US on E-3 visas? Any move to bring them all home to protect American jobs?

[mngmt mole]

Already happening here too. I have no idea how they manage to entice foreigners to come fly here. If you think COS18 at Cathay is bad, check out what's on offer here. But yes, I get it, and I'm most likely not going to apply for the reasons you stated. It just wouldn't feel right. Maybe instead of fleeing I should just try and find a way I can help fight for better conditions here at home so the next generation doesn't have to put up with what we do right now. Emirates is crap, Cathay is now crap, and I couldn't put up with the other places (China, Qatar, etc). I guess I really don't have a choice.

Porterboy, with all due respect, I believe you are missing the bigger point. Getting on the "aviation ladder" in Canada, or most places for that matter, is difficult and requires a lot of hard work, usually involving low paying jobs in not so nice places. Most of us have had to do that (including me). There seems to be a mindset that somehow it should all come easily. It doesn't.

That is why pilots at established airlines, most of who had to suffer their apprenticeships to reach the now "cushy" airline job become very upset when someone announces they are willing to come and work on "lower pay and benefits" than what is presently established, thereby putting pressure in a downward direction on those same pay and benefits. Because CX can hire from anywhere (and believe me, they are about to hire from "anywhere" !!), they can constantly threaten to supplant you with pilots from much lower standard of living regions, who would be happy to work for the lower pay and benefits (COS 18).

If you accept a job here on those terms, you not only do yourself a disservice, but certainly will be doing a disservice to those already here who are fighting tooth and nail to maintain any remaining value in their careers. Everyone needs to fight their battles, and it probably is not unfair to suggest that fighting it in Canada will ultimately benefit everyone there. Sincerely, I wish you luck and hope you can understand the position i'm explaining.

[Babbalito]

Seriously?

There is no fight at CX or KA.
The unions did nothing to stop the demise of expat terms in either company.. They are doing nothing to stop COS18. It is disgraceful that we don't protect our future colleagues as well as ourselves.
The reason the company does not respect the pilots is because we haven't earned their respect. They treat us with the contempt we deserve.
Go on AoA and DPA, surprise us all by standing up and saying enough is enough.
Hoping to applaud; expecting crickets.

[mngmt mole]

Seriously?

There is no fight at CX or KA.
The unions did nothing to stop the demise of expat terms in either company.. They are doing nothing to stop COS18. It is disgraceful that we don't protect our future colleagues as well as ourselves.
The reason the company does not respect the pilots is because we haven't earned their respect. They treat us with the contempt we deserve.
Go on AoA and DPA, surprise us all by standing up and saying enough is enough.
Hoping to applaud; expecting crickets.

Collectively, I have to agree with you. The AOA (at least the current iteration) is woeful in their competence (can't even seem to manage communicating with their members!). However, most of us individually are doing all we can. Many are sacrificing, and will continue to do so. I only hope that our GC and NC pull their thumbs out and start demonstrating they understand why they were elected. On current evidence, not so sure they have a clue.

[DrongoDriver]

One small problem with that. Two, actually:

Foreign pilots get paid the same as every other DHC-8 pilot, so your assertion that foreigners are a ploy to keep wages low is faulty.

How many Australian pilots are flying in the US on E-3 visas? Any move to bring them all home to protect American jobs?



I never said anything about wages, I talked about training costs. But since you brought it up, foreign pilots may not get paid LESS but they are the reason wages don’t go UP. Free market and all that stuff that’s over my head and pay check.

Absolutely 100% in favour of bringing them home (also I’m pretty sure they all want to come home of their own accord). It might force the lawmakers to scrap that stupid 1500hr rule and nurture the GA side of it more.

[Bend alot]

I never said anything about wages, I talked about training costs. But since you brought it up, foreign pilots may not get paid LESS but they are the reason wages don’t go UP. Free market and all that stuff that’s over my head and pay check.

Absolutely 100% in favour of bringing them home (also I’m pretty sure they all want to come home of their own accord). It might force the lawmakers to scrap that stupid 1500hr rule and nurture the GA side of it more.

Yes the training cost that companies for years have paid and had way too many pilots burn them without "HONOUR" of meeting the agreement for such training and leave soon after.

I know guys that got into CX in early 90's get the 747 not like Hong Hong then try commute then just leave and apply Qantas within the first year.

No wonder company's want to skip that training - if they did not get burnt so often they would be happy to train.

What is the latest - we will transfer your training bond!

And you guys all think that's fine? - it is nothing but self interest.

[DrongoDriver]

Yes the training cost that companies for years have paid and had way too many pilots burn them without "HONOUR" of meeting the agreement for such training and leave soon after.

I know guys that got into CX in early 90's get the 747 not like Hong Hong then try commute then just leave and apply Qantas within the first year.

No wonder company's want to skip that training - if they did not get burnt so often they would be happy to train.

What is the latest - we will transfer your training bond!

And you guys all think that's fine? - it is nothing but self interest.

Do I think it’s fine? No. Do I think it’s a risk that business needs to take? Yes.

Now I’ll admit I’m not 100% certain but I don’t think there is another industry where you have to pay for your own training for a specific company. Whether it’s bus drivers or astronauts, I can’t imagine them being held to a bond.

If CX was being used as a training ground for QF then they need to compete in another way rather than try to force applicants to pay for the ‘pleasure’ of flying their metal.

[Bend alot]

Do I think it’s fine? No. Do I think it’s a risk that business needs to take? Yes.

Now I’ll admit I’m not 100% certain but I don’t think there is another industry where you have to pay for your own training for a specific company. Whether it’s bus drivers or astronauts, I can’t imagine them being held to a bond.

If CX was being used as a training ground for QF then they need to compete in another way rather than try to force applicants to pay for the ‘pleasure’ of flying their metal.

Is a 747, 380, 767, training (rating) only valid for a specific company?

If not - then that may be a solution!!

Most other industries don't have seniority and they then train people that stay for bond periods

[mngmt mole]

If a company tries to "restrain" you from leaving with restrictive contracts, then that should say everything about the company and what its offering. It certainly says everything about Cathay Pacific. If you have any pride, any self-worth, any desire to actually enjoy your job and have a productive career, run away from here as fast as you can. CX is finished.

[Slasher1]

If a company tries to "restrain" you from leaving with restrictive contracts, then that should say everything about the company and what its offering. It certainly says everything about Cathay Pacific. If you have any pride, any self-worth, any desire to actually enjoy your job and have a productive career, run away from here as fast as you can. CX is finished.

Exactly.

And such restraints are notoriously difficult (often impossible) to enforce anyway. The only 'effective' way to 'enforce' them is either have money in escrow (in an account in the home country of the company) OR do what most reputable companies do. Rather than trying to punish and restrain, they have a bonus or incentive for staying. Incentives work great. People generally use their efforts to seek the carrot, and find creative ways to avoid the stick. So you either have their effort and talent working for you in seeking the carrot, or have their effort and talent working against you in avoiding the stick.

[Avinthenews]

The restraint is seniority, every day that passes it holds a little firmer. Meaning you'll accept more ****.

And worse still it repels at a new airline the longer you stay away. Meaning you'll join at any cost to begin with.

And airlines that can get away with it use seniority to destroy the career.

[Bend alot]

If a company tries to "restrain" you from leaving with restrictive contracts, then that should say everything about the company and what its offering. It certainly says everything about Cathay Pacific. If you have any pride, any self-worth, any desire to actually enjoy your job and have a productive career, run away from here as fast as you can. CX is finished.

Many many years ago companies supplied the expensive training with no strings attached - too many pilots took advantage of this training to get a type endorsement, from a airline that they had no intention of making a career at. Many of these pilots as soon as their licence was updated, so was the CV and sent to the airlines that they did wish to have a career at.

This practice became so common that something needed to be done, I expect the airlines after being shafted by pilots, did not consider offering bonuses to pilots who had stayed for a reasonable amount of time.

This is not just an issue for CX but it is a reason that restrain methods are used, they would use a term like "insurance on investment clause".

The Seniority I expect plays a big part in pilots jumping ship soon after being trained on a jet, to work for an airline they want to have a career. That is so they can be more senior sooner, and that is a individual benefit and that seems to outweigh any contractual or handshake agreements made.

I expect that many airlines will be watching CX and see what they will actually get away with. The other airlines can bring in pilots on lower base pays than current but top them up with nice carrots, once seniority creeps in the carrots dry up (13th pay cheque example) then it is do I say I'am only 18 months from an upgrade? The people more senior than you won't support you they are on a different pay structure to you.

The company then works on an other pay structure with enough carrots to bring in the next round with base pay and conditions eroded again, but enough to get that seniority clock coming into play.

Will CX's newest pay and conditions be enough that too many will turn the back on seniority that they will need to up the carrot offered? Seems not yet.

But the rest of the World is not as expensive to live, has bigger than shoe boxes and breathable air - this airlines outside Hong Hong can use to go that bit lower.

[Freehills]

Work permits & immigration policy come into it as well. There aren't that many airlines with ability to hire without regard to that. So an airline in the US can't use that (cost of living/ air) to go lower than CX, because they don't have the ability to hire non US/ green card pilots from CX.

[Slasher1]

I expect that many airlines will be watching CX and see what they will actually get away with. The other airlines can bring in pilots on lower base pays than current but top them up with nice carrots, once seniority creeps in the carrots dry up (13th pay cheque example) then it is do I say I'am only 18 months from an upgrade? The people more senior than you won't support you they are on a different pay structure to you.

.

The ones who want to fail certainly will. But nobody else will--they'll more be looking at it on a lesson of what NOT to do (and will do everything they can to learn from CXs mistakes--and not go down the same path). How to take a profitable and prestigious company (with a proud and capable workforce of great qualifications) and run it into the ground. And completely alienate and divide the workforce. Dissatisfied, disgruntled, apathetic, and divided workforces who might feel the only reason they're there is they're trapped by seniority (and/or nowhere else to go) are REALLY REALLY unproductive and expensive. With "Paycheck jobs" ya get the minimum of just about everything.

Have a look at the posts of those individuals who've left. And how happy they are. THIS is the key. Happy people move heaven and earth to get the job done.

The guy from 'office space' could give these folks a few pointers.

There ARE companies who see what a competitor can 'get away with' by using the stick. And then along comes an incentive based competitor (who actually keeps their promises, has integrity, and promotes teamwork with personal value) and eats them for lunch. The Herb Kelleher approach. People WANT to be at work, and love what they do (granted there might have been SOME straying after he left, but all corporations have lifecycles--and even in the post Herb world folks who've left CX for SWA are lovin' it; at least the ones I know of). People aren't cringing on the way in, they're smiling on the drive over.

THAT'S the way to run an airline.

[lessonlearnt]

Wow look at this discussion about CX.... should make every person who is considering of coming wonder??

As I said everyone has a decision but I would recommend people to do research about everything before coming to CX and living in HK.
Don't get caught up with the money - because its actually not that much and people are living paycheque to paycheque here. I mean yes you can make sacrifices to save some money. Like us SO's do - we drink outside the 7/11 stores on a night out which is great fun but its more got to do with the fact the entertainment is just to expensive in HK. - LIFE is very very expensive in HK.

Lots of people get into debt as they join here, because you really do need money to move to HK. The little amount you get on Loan from the company is not enough. TRUST ME. But you probably are thinking, I will just sell what I have at home to set myself up - I did this. BIG MISTAKE. You selling your life to start a very average and frustrating one in HK. ITS NOT WORTH IT.

For me and believe many SO's the fact that CX has treated us like bottom feeders, and just delayed and delayed our upgrades has frustrated us as a group and is the reason we all will be looking elsewhere for employment.
But before SO's look to leave we will be claiming all our bonuses, taking our maximum sick days, long term sickness included. Not answering our phones on Days Off (even when CC is finished), doing the absolute minimum work we can do - because why should we kill ourselves for a company that is maliciously ending our career before it has started.

The company has lost all good faith from most of the pilots and management know this!!!
I mean for CADETS who I know personally to say they will leave if they can, or take as much sick leave as possible, or long term or honestly don't give a £@$% about this company that says a lot...... and this is happening.

Im not telling anyone who is interested in CX not to come - please don't think that, BUT im painting an honest picture of life here.
Forget about upgrades for 5+ years as SO's, DEFO's forget about ever getting command because you are all the way at the bottom of the list, thats the reality of it. You will leave before your command is anywhere close.

Think Carefully and be smart - don't make the same mistake that most of us in this company has made!!!!

A Shoutout to all airlines across the world - you have many many experienced and eager Second Officers in CX that are dying to leave.

We have type experience and we understand the long haul industry. Give us a chance and accept some of our SO hours and you will have no more pilot shortage for years to come. Open up you doors and we WILL come. TRUST ME.....

[Bend alot]

E3 visas in the USA and Allan has just been approved to get a few expat pilots with a path way to PR in Australia.

That opens the door in USA and Australia.

Many comments about CX management mirror what is said about Allan Joyce - if you think Qantas made a profit recently think again, that was all smoke and mirrors. He also thinks the current pilots are paid too much.

It seems that unit cost is the main thing they teach in CEO school these days.

[dragon man]

E3 visas in the USA and Allan has just been approved to get a few expat pilots with a path way to PR in Australia.

That opens the door in USA and Australia.

Many comments about CX management mirror what is said about Allan Joyce - if you think Qantas made a profit recently think again, that was all smoke and mirrors. He also thinks the current pilots are paid too much.

It seems that unit cost is the main thing they teach in CEO school these days.

Be under no illusion the only plus in Qantas is you live in Australia. The pilots were sold out by their union and then ratified effectively a B scale on the 787 which within ten years will apply to all long haul aircraft. No overtime, no night credits for 4 man crew and a squirrel cage bidding system. To earn similar money to what I get on the 747 you will do approx 20 more stick hours a month.

[Bend alot]

dragon man - that is a very big plus for the family of a pilot.

For that many will sacrifice even more conditions and soon the C scale exists - this will probably be B scale minus many favourable conditions + many unfavourable conditions but with the carrot on a hook to poach trained folk from other airlines (by way of signing bonus) that are recently trained but not very senior.

A shyt job with average pay and poor conditions in a cheap non polluted country, trumps the same shyt job with average pay and conditions in an expensive and polluted country every time.

[dragon man]

dragon man - that is a very big plus for the family of a pilot.

For that many will sacrifice even more conditions and soon the C scale exists - this will probably be B scale minus many favourable conditions + many unfavourable conditions but with the carrot on a hook to poach trained folk from other airlines (by way of signing bonus) that are recently trained but not very senior.

A shyt job with average pay and poor conditions in a cheap non polluted country, trumps the same shyt job with average pay and conditions in an expensive and polluted country every time.

I agree, however you need to be aware that if you are Sydney based its not cheap, secondly with bases on the 737 in most capital cities there are many day trips with long drives to affordable housing, for some flight attendants 2 1/2 hours driving a day in Sydney plus $20 in tolls is not unusual. Because of the demise of seniority based bidding commuting is a lot harder and family and partner career balance a lot more difficult to achieve. Lastly, superannuation was C scaled about 15 years ago, if you are lucky and wise enough to avoid divorce to have reasonable super will entail flying till 65/70.

[Babbalito]

"The pilots were sold out by their union..."

trade union
noun

an organized association of workers in a profession formed to protect and further their rights and interests.

Simple really but most pilots in the group are too dumb and/or selfish and/or weak to act collectively and effectively.

[Bend alot]

"The pilots were sold out by their union..."

trade union
noun

an organized association of workers in a profession formed to protect and further their rights and interests.

Simple really but most pilots in the group are too dumb and/or selfish and/or weak to act collectively and effectively.
You use too many words - seniority cancels "rights and interests" of an association of workers - it is each for their own best interest.

So never can be organised by a union.

[Slasher1]

You use too many words - seniority cancels "rights and interests" of an association of workers - it is each for their own best interest.

So never can be organised by a union.

The strongest motivating force I have seen in my life -- ever -- is when a person feels a sense of duty toward a group of his colleagues (for whatever task). This does demand leadership and an environment where it can happen.

This force transcends just about everything. Fear, self-interest, money, food, water, you name it.

But it is sometimes difficult to attain that leadership and culture.

[DropKnee]

You use too many words - seniority cancels "rights and interests" of an association of workers - it is each for their own best interest.

So never can be organised by a union.
WRONG!!
Get some backbone and fight. No one gets anything for free.

[Bend alot]

So how much fight is there for a 30 years of service senior captain with a wife and 2 kids?

While stuck in Hong Hong in deteriorating conditions he will still be on a high salary (minus the 13th I hear) and have pretty good accommodation and education I believe and the best pick of the roster.

Now after 30 years where can this guy go?

Even a direct entry captain will have lower pay (yes overall) but the loss of seniority and the shyty shifts you are given takes the life out of your twilight years of employment, that quality family time at the good holiday periods is gone. Forget holidays for kids summer vacations or any school holidays.

Every 30 year senior would have been against the B scale introduction and a negative look at the pilots that took the B scale jobs with reduced pay and conditions, but the trend on job scales continues.

So we have A scale that can not really go any place unless they want to try a new venture or retire.
We have B scale that are happy if A scale leave or assist them for a better package for them. But they are starting to get some senior benefits and not happy the new C scale are making it hard for the B's to get a better package.

Then we have the C scale that many will happily flow thru the system for a few years to get "paid training" on the jets.

By the time the A's have retired many of the B's will be in the current A's position.

Dropknee - I am not a pilot but do work in the industry. I am currently a member of 2 unions and actively trying to "maintain" and then increase our pay and conditions, our employer is hell bent on reducing our conditions by lots and in return a increase far less than inflationary pay increase. The work we have done in informing the staff of what is happening to them is massive, but they are starting to get united in rejecting the offer given to us.

[unitedabx]

"The pilots were sold out by their union..."

trade union
noun

an organized association of workers in a profession formed to protect and further their rights and interests.

Simple really but most pilots in the group are too dumb and/or selfish and/or weak to act collectively and effectively.

A REAL profession controls entry into it. For example the legal profession retsricts the number of solicitors/lawyers and barristers qualifying each year. The medical profession decides how many doctors are admitted. Pilots count themselves as a profession BUT entry into this market is controlled by the employers. So, by the law of diminishing returns, the more pilots you have the lower the unit cost ( salary ). Simple.

The demise of the airline pilot as a profession has been planned and orchestrated by both airlines and manufacturers. After WW2 to fly an aircraft across the pacific required the minimum of a captain, co-pilot, navigator, wireless operator and engineer .By the 1960's Airbus had designed the A320 to be pilot less but public opinion was not ready for that so the side stick was added. The Gemini and Apollo space programmes were initially designed to have passengers not pilots trained as astronauts. By the early 2000's drone technology was being applied to the military and today the RAF has announced the F35 will be the last manned fighter they use. Technology driven by airlines and manufacturers has been developed to eliminate the source of human error. The pilot. This has happened before. In 1920 The Flying Scotsman was THE cutting edge mode of rail transportation. The fastest and most technically advanced train in the world. It required a driver (who was held in high asteem in society) co-driver, engineer, two coal stokers and at least one guard. By 1960, the diesel train was operated by one man, holding a deadmans handle with no status in society save a union protected wage ( note I say wage. Professionals receive salaries. Workers a wage ). In 1945 if you asked any young boy what he wanted to be he might answer a pilot, astronaut, fireman, train driver. By 2018 the answer is celebrity TV presenter, twitter star or Xfactor winner. Times have changed. So airlines and manufacturers who still haven't convinced the travelling public that pilot less planes are the future and need bodies to occupy control seats are turning to other sources. The short term answer seems to be women pilots. Once left out of this profession by design they are now being welcomed and encouraged (AND RIGHTLY SO, LONG OVERDUE ) but this is only to fill a gap that cannot be filled from traditional sources until the first freighters become unmanned. Honeywell are flying a DC10 freighter around fully automated. Howe long before FedEx or UPS take the plunge and announce unmanned freighters flown like drones from bunkers in the desert ? I give it 10-20 years. Then it is only a matter of time before pilot less passengers planes take to the sky and within 50 years the pilot will be flightless, just like the DoDo.
Today CX is taking that first step. It needs bodies to sit in seats and press buttons. It doesn't need jet jockies, prima donas, or natural pilots. It doesn't need "the right stuff" it needs bums to fill seats and as cheaply as possible. Hence COS18 the beginning of the end. And every airline in the world is watching. If CX get away with it then why would UPS and Delta go the opposite way. They will watch and learn then attack. Make the most of it while you can. This profession is extinct.

[bm330]

Except the market is not driven by its size, its driven by supply and demand.

During an age when you actually needed to be a pilot to hold a cockpit job, skills were rewarded. Modern aircraft have never been safer and the Accountants have realized that they essentially fly themselves. Widebody international flying was once limited to experienced, skilled aviators. Now it's full of newbie, low time kids willing to work for peanuts - essentially what they're worth. Only after events like AF or German Wings, does the public question who is actually in the seat. At the end of the day, until they're afraid for their own well being, the driving force is the price of a ticket. So far, none of the long list of 'errors' has cost CX a serious accident. If/when it does, maybe then things will change.

[Kid Dynamite]

HE????????

[Kid Dynamite]

How about when No 13th month is announced we finally grow a pair and call for a strike vote!!
Time to stop talking shyt and start doing...

[unitedabx]

What about the pilot on instagram who entices others to join on the current contract knowing its a downhill deal?
He needs to be stopped.

An ego maniac and a very sad reflection on the pilot body. But remember he joined via ASL so never did the complete CX recruitment thing. In by the back door for good reason.

[unitedabx]

Except the market is not driven by its size, its driven by supply and demand.

During an age when you actually needed to be a pilot to hold a cockpit job, skills were rewarded. Modern aircraft have never been safer and the Accountants have realized that they essentially fly themselves. Widebody international flying was once limited to experienced, skilled aviators. Now it's full of newbie, low time kids willing to work for peanuts - essentially what they're worth. Only after events like AF or German Wings, does the public question who is actually in the seat. At the end of the day, until they're afraid for their own well being, the driving force is the price of a ticket. So far, none of the long list of 'errors' has cost CX a serious accident. If/when it does, maybe then things will change.

My point was pilots should control the supply not airlines or manufacturers.

[Avinthenews]

How about when No 13th month is announced we finally grow a pair and call for a strike vote!!
Time to stop talking shyt and start doing...

Bet the vote is done and dusted before the 13th month announcement and early in the new year a order for more aircraft or some other change where pilots will have been outplayed again.

[DropKnee]

So how much fight is there for a 30 years of service senior captain with a wife and 2 kids?

While stuck in Hong Hong in deteriorating conditions he will still be on a high salary (minus the 13th I hear) and have pretty good accommodation and education I believe and the best pick of the roster.

Now after 30 years where can this guy go?

Even a direct entry captain will have lower pay (yes overall) but the loss of seniority and the shyty shifts you are given takes the life out of your twilight years of employment, that quality family time at the good holiday periods is gone. Forget holidays for kids summer vacations or any school holidays.

Every 30 year senior would have been against the B scale introduction and a negative look at the pilots that took the B scale jobs with reduced pay and conditions, but the trend on job scales continues.

So we have A scale that can not really go any place unless they want to try a new venture or retire.
We have B scale that are happy if A scale leave or assist them for a better package for them. But they are starting to get some senior benefits and not happy the new C scale are making it hard for the B's to get a better package.

Then we have the C scale that many will happily flow thru the system for a few years to get "paid training" on the jets.

By the time the A's have retired many of the B's will be in the current A's position.

Dropknee - I am not a pilot but do work in the industry. I am currently a member of 2 unions and actively trying to "maintain" and then increase our pay and conditions, our employer is hell bent on reducing our conditions by lots and in return a increase far less than inflationary pay increase. The work we have done in informing the staff of what is happening to them is massive, but they are starting to get united in rejecting the offer given to us.
Good to hear you are working collectively to make your situation better. I believe a new era is on the horizon. Those companies that continue to disregard their employees. Do so at great risk to themselves.

[Will IB Fayed]

Make the most of it while you can. This profession is extinct.

I couldn't agree more.
Obvoiusly our union believe the "pilot shortage" (which they continually spruik on social media) will be solved by giving us a better package.
Worth a try I guess, but they are burying their head in the sand....

[Babbalito]

I really feel for you on this "I know I'd be going in and taking people's jobs which is why I'm hesitant to apply" but frankly this just isn't your responsibility.

You can't possibly be in any way responsible for the welfare of a team or community that you aren't even a member of.

If you apply and succeed, all you did is follow their rules which you had no input into.

Apply. Join. When you get there, be a good team player.

Even if that means the irony of not hiring yourself tomorrow.

Yup. The responsibility for accepting poorer terms lies solely with the generation that did nothing to protect the future. Gurning that "you get what you signed for and now you're hurting the CoS of the present group and that you have no right to demand improvements at our expense" (while still training them no less) is perverse, naive, flawed and retarded.

But, if you added all the vertebrae at CX/KA, you couldn't build a single spine.

[athrun]

Just a curious question, is it true CX prefers hiring SO's and DEFO's of Canadian or Aussie/Anzac origin rather than other nationalities?

[controlledrest]

Just a curious question, is it true CX prefers hiring SO's and DEFO's of Canadian or Aussie/Anzac origin rather than other nationalities?

Recruitment is now the domain of the 'People' department. They just want to fill seats. Flying ability and experience no longer required. Preference given to locals as they are less likely to leave.

[ACMS]

Let’s see how they rationalize that with the current LOSA report.....:{

[Foxdeux]

According to Ray Dalio, we're in the 7th inning of this super cycle. It's sort of unprecedented that this business cycle has lasted this long, the Fed is obviously trying to play catch up with rate hikes which only worsens debt servicing. Airlines/Travel industry are usually the worst hit when there's an economic downturn, bad timing I guess.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/11/billionaire-ray-dalio-we-are-in-the-7th-inning-of-the-current-economic-cycle.html

[morningcoffee]

There are other options out there. For starts HK Express is an option and most SOs would meet the requirements and HK Express would love to have them. Contracts are very transparent and you will already earn more than an SO salary plus you get an upgrade to FO and you ACTUALLY FLY THE AIRCRAFT.

You tell me how that is not a better option???!!!

So please stop spreading your CX BS here.
So HKE want 500 on type with a 320 or 330 rating and you’re saying most Cathay S/Os have that? Or even more experience if you’re NTR.
When I bump into a CX S/O who joined as a cadet with 500 hrs jet I’ll let you know.

[unitedabx]

So HKE want 500 on type with a 320 or 330 rating and you’re saying most Cathay S/Os have that? Or even more experience if you’re NTR.
When I bump into a CX S/O who joined as a cadet with 500 hrs jet I’ll let you know.


HKE are targeting a much better experience level than CX. RHS positions being offered not backseat radio operators as in CX.

[schweizer2]

I was an SO with only a few thousand turboprop and a few hundred P2X (Which probably counted as NOTHING). I got in, no type rating on 320. Full type rating course was done.

I am sure there are many SOs that had my similar experience plus more! HK Express is also starting their Second Officer program for pilots with less than their First Officer Requirements (1500 TT), the difference is these Second Officers will actually fly! Much better option for cadets who need to gain that experience.


The important question, how are you enjoying life at HKE?

Honest question as I am interested to have an insight at what life with them could be like.

[unitedabx]

I was an SO with only a few thousand turboprop and a few hundred P2X (Which probably counted as NOTHING). I got in, no type rating on 320. Full type rating course was done.

I am sure there are many SOs that had my similar experience plus more! HK Express is also starting their Second Officer program for pilots with less than their First Officer Requirements (1500 TT), the difference is these Second Officers will actually fly! Much better option for cadets who need to gain that experience.

Well done. Happy flying.

[morningcoffee]

Starting pay is around $50K at HKE, about the same as the S/O package at CX so the new S/O job at HKE is going to pay way less. And you’re all bitching that you can’t survive in HKG on what CX pay but HKE (and HKA for that matter) enable you to live a great life in HKG, on less money.
The hypocrisy is a joke, have you seen the schooling allowance for HKE?
Anything to get in a new shiny jet. NTR at HKE are bonded I assume.

[cxorcist]

When I bump into a CX S/O who joined as a cadet with 500 hrs jet I’ll let you know.


This statement tells you everything you need to know about CX’s current hiring standards. Absolutely, positively scraping the bottom of the barrel, and you can tell most days out on the line. Most of the decent ones get hired elsewhere, leaving the worst of the worst for us to fly beside. Guaranteed hull loss by the end of the next decade...

[Flex88]

If you're considering moving to the most expensive city on the planet for a #FakeAirline that's currently in the process of slashing wages and benefits, read the attachment then go shopping..

Shop around, shop wisely, enjoy life.

[morningcoffee]

Wow $110k a month base pay for an F/O is great money, skippers must be on $150k a month base pay at least. Sounds like HKE is the place to be, that’s at least 30% better than what CX pay. In fact a new joiner F/O at HKE is doing better than a skipper at CX.
Always good when someone presents the facts. And everyone is happy and they love the place, and they treat everyone so well.

[shortly2]

Pigs can fly, the world is flat and Islam is a religion of peace. I know quite a few HKE drivers who are not happy.

[Gnadenburg]

Wow $110k a month base pay for an F/O is great money, skippers must be on $150k a month base pay at least. Sounds like HKE is the place to be, that’s at least 30% better than what CX pay. In fact a new joiner F/O at HKE is doing better than a skipper at CX.
Always good when someone presents the facts. And everyone is happy and they love the place, and they treat everyone so well.


The professional expectations and colonial check and training system of the CX/ KA Group has not been correctly measured by management in my opinion. If you are an average pilot on the market a more professionally relaxed outfit desirable. And these days, due poor training and endorsement programs coupled with low experience, "averageness" may not be an individuals fault, it's an industry issue.

I've been keenly interested in this topic for a number of reasons. CX/ KA can't blatantly drop standards to compete for the pilot market and thwart the colonial perceptions on check and training. Though they will/ have changed the training structurally to address failure rates. They will put into place other soft programs to address a culture of fear but I do wonder if they are clever enough to see the forest for the trees. In the last year I have seen cases of "bullying" of the new, softer demographic of new joiners for the Group and there seems to be no decisive strategy in dealing with a problem that can unravel recruitment strategies.

There is a way and direction to actually improve standards and training- though I doubt there will be buy in by a pilot group being hastily replaced.

[Apple Tree Yard]

A friend of mine flying in Europe commented to me recently, and I quote "the average standard of english emanating from CX cockpits the past few years is interesting..." . Says it all...

[Frogman1484]

Cathay Pacific rebuffs trainee pilots’ appeal over pay hit
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/2169680/cathay-pacifics-trainee-pilots-appeal-against-lower

[4runner]

https://apple.news/AhLXJMoY2QVOe41ZRFh405g

[4runner]

Disregard. Someone beat me to it.

[From a distance]

There’s a complete surprise. Cathay management acting in a dishonourable manner once again. Then trying to justify their actions with weak wishy washy statements. Do they believe their own BS. My contempt of Cathay management is complete.

[Starbear]

Cathay Pacific rebuffs trainee pilots’ appeal over pay hit
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/2169680/cathay-pacifics-trainee-pilots-appeal-against-lower

I'm sorry are they suggesting that Cathay Pacific Airlines' "management" lied to and misled a group of cadets in Adelaide? I quite simply refuse to believe this. The next thing is they will be accused of offering cadet Instructors a "locked in" slot on the seniority list if they agree to stay on in Adelaide and assist with training their future colleagues. Will never happen, PC and the jellyfish would rather fall on their swords.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Haha....! My favourite line from the article; "He reminded them the airline had already taken “exceptional” action by dropping its earlier proposal to make the cadets pay half the cost of their training". So, the company "waiving" something that should never have applied to the cadets in the first place is somehow the CX being "exceptional"...?? WTF? As "From a Distance" said earlier, my contempt for this management is complete. They all embarrass themselves, but of course they have no shame, so therefore don't suffer embarrassment. Bottom of the Barrel. For those already at CX, the quote above is from the most likely in line to be the next DFO. That should tell you all you need to know about the style of management you can expect. Don't walk, run to your next employer. This one is beyond saving.