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Fliegenmong
11th Oct 2018, 11:34
....So.....goes into the embassy...never comes out.....(well not under his own steam...it would seem)

meadowrun
11th Oct 2018, 15:34
Maybe he decided to go on a bender with his Saudi fellow countrymen and is just missing in a selection of Turkish bars.

Probably not but better than thinking of a 15 man Saudi hit squad -(15? - really?) with their own bone saw and State Sponsored Assassination.

More important is what will happen now?

Erdogan has made the outraged sounds and so has Donald (ever notice how often he sits there answering questions with his arms tightly - I mean "tightly" crossed against his chest? Body language aficionados know all about that - Donnie apparently doesn't)).
Saudi Arabia has officially said - he left, we dunno what happened to him.
Didn't think my opinion of the place and their culture could be any lower.

What will the world do?

arketip
11th Oct 2018, 16:08
What will the world do?

Blame Putin

er340790
11th Oct 2018, 16:57
Well, if the allegations turn out to be true, the logical response to state assassination would be sanctions against the Saudi regime and a boycott of oil purchases.

Except... I really don't think that's going to happen. Do you???

My guess is the final report will get filed in the same place as the BAe Bribery Scandal.

Plus ca change.... :ugh:

DaveReidUK
11th Oct 2018, 17:32
Saudis discussed plan to lure Jamal Khashoggi to Saudi Arabia, US intercepts show (https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/11/politics/khashoggi-us-intelligence-saudi-plan-to-lure-journalist/index.html)

RatherBeFlying
11th Oct 2018, 17:36
Putin & Skripal = Mohammed bin Salman & Kashoggi

Have to say Putin is well ahead in the deniability department:E

ShotOne
11th Oct 2018, 19:43
Skripal versus Khashoggi. Yes, point taken but both massively outside the bounds of civilised norms and one doesn’t excuse the other. It’s important we get to the bottom of what happened at the consulate; how about the alleged hitsquad get the Bellingcat treatment?

Chronus
11th Oct 2018, 20:28
So this chap goes into his Consular office and is not seen or heard of again. The local coppers are invited to go and have a quick look see in broom cupboards and loos and come out empty handed. Their bosses say sorry he is not hiding in there. But what about CCTV, don`t the Saudi`s have any of those around. What about this chap`s mobile phone, didn`t he have one of those all singing dancing ones that can be traced even if you happen to have lost your way and ended up in Mars.
Down the hill from the consulate, it is only a short distance to the dark depths of the Bosphorous and its strong currents.
Turn left out of the consulate and not too far away perhaps they are still busy pouring lots of concrete for the new airport.
With all that wizzo equipment on board and on the ground not a trace of MH370, what chance of finding one solitary bloke who happened to walk into the Suadi version of the Tardis.

DaveReidUK
11th Oct 2018, 21:03
All of the CCTV that might have given a clue (though probably not) seems to have disappeared, by all accounts.

Even more sinister is the unconfirmed report that on the day Khashoggi was due to visit the embassy, all the locally-employed Turkish staff were given the day off.

chuks
11th Oct 2018, 21:43
According to some anonymous Turkish sources, cited here in the German papers, the unfortunate Mr. Khashoggi was promptly shot to death inside the Saudi consulate, cut up into pieces and bagged, and then hauled off in that black Vito he was shown walking past on his way into the consulate, with his remains having been taken first to the consul's residence not far away. (Not in the accounts is what happened after that, but a good guess might be onward transport in diplomatic bags to Saudi on one of those Gulfstreams.)

That was a pretty startling account of what happened, and a rather exact one, so that you have to wonder how much the Turks really know about what happened.

For now it seems clear that the man went into but did not walk back out of the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, but it is hard to believe that the Saudis would kill him out of hand on Turkish soil. (An embassy or consulate is diplomatically immune from intrusion or search under most circumstances, but it's not some sort of mini-state, foreign soil inside another country.)

meadowrun
11th Oct 2018, 22:41
but it's not some sort of mini-state, foreign soil inside another country


Apparently the Saudi's think differently and if it went like it is shaping to have occurred, it worked for them up to the point of all the awkward questions.
So now they will just lie and deny. No video, no body, no witnesses. Unless someone can crack one of the hit squad or embassy staff.
Now that would be fun.

RatherBeFlying
11th Oct 2018, 23:06
There are reports the Turkish authorities checked the bags of the Saudis departing that day. Perhaps the remains could be shipped in diplomatic bags, but the Turkish authorities may refuse to allow any shipments until Kashoggi turns up. The ambassador's residence may need a large freezer. Was one recently purchased?

The Mossad would have arranged for a hit in an anonymous location, and a quiet burial or cremation handled by a complicit funeral home as happened to at least one operative in the Munich massacre.

tartare
12th Oct 2018, 02:51
WAPO reporting there is audio and video of the interrogation, torture and murder..

dr dre
12th Oct 2018, 03:40
But don't forget guys, the new leader of Saudi is a "moderate", we still have to sell them guns, buy their oil, support their regional policies and say absolutely nothing about any bad things they may have done, this event being the tip of the iceberg:

Saudi Arabia's crown prince promises to lead his country 'back to moderate Islam' (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/24/saudi-prince-promises-lead-country-back-moderate-islam/)

Ancient Mariner
12th Oct 2018, 10:12
There are reports the Turkish authorities checked the bags of the Saudis departing that day. Perhaps the remains could be shipped in diplomatic bags, but the Turkish authorities may refuse to allow any shipments until Kashoggi turns up. The ambassador's residence may need a large freezer. Was one recently purchased?

The Mossad would have arranged for a hit in an anonymous location, and a quiet burial or cremation handled by a complicit funeral home as happened to at least one operative in the Munich massacre.

Would that be the same Keystone Cops Mossad who killed the wrong guy in Lillehammer, got caught by the most ineffiencient police in the world, and where one of the killers married her defence lawyer. That Mossad?
Per

meadowrun
12th Oct 2018, 10:42
Your opinion of Mossad's effectiveness is based on that one incident?
I can think of many more organizations who use the Keystone Cops playbook.

Andy_S
12th Oct 2018, 11:26
But don't forget guys, the new leader of Saudi is a "moderate", we still have to sell them guns, buy their oil, support their regional policies and say absolutely nothing about any bad things they may have done.......I don’t disagree with what you’re saying in general, but (at risk of going off topic) the same could be said of Vladimir Putin. Yet there are a number of PPRuNe’rs who strongly support Putin on the grounds that he’s a force for stability and that a country like Russia needs an authoritarian strongman to keep a lid on what would otherwise be a chaotic country. I don’t necessarily endorse MBS, but it could be argued that he is similar in some respects to Bad Vlad. For the record, I have little doubt that serious harm has come to Jamal Khashoggi, almost certainly at the hands of his own countrymen. And the Saudi’s ought to be robustly challenged about his fate. But goodness there’s some double standards in evidence.

Ancient Mariner
12th Oct 2018, 11:33
Your opinion of Mossad's effectiveness is based on that one incident?
I can think of many more organizations who use the Keystone Cops playbook.
Yes it is, why not? And calling cold blooded murder of innocent civilians by state terrorists an "incident"? Which playbook other organizations play by outside my country I frankly don't care much about.
I will however give them credit for not invading us in order to kill, or catch just a single person.
Per

chuks
12th Oct 2018, 11:55
We once had agents of the Chilean secret police, DINA, come to Washington, D.C. to blow up his car and kill Chilean dissident Orlando Letelier, when they also killed a US citizen, Ronni Moffitt. We did not go as deeply into who was behind this assassination as we easily could have. In fact, just before this we had decided for political reasons not to protest strongly against General Pinochet's campaign of murder against Chilean dissidents living abroad, when it was he who then ordered the bombing.

With this one it seems for now as if Saudi purchases of $110 billion worth of US arms will lead Trump to merely give MBS as light rap over the knuckles, nothing more, particularly since the man killed was merely living in the USA as a non-citizen under our protection.

meadowrun
12th Oct 2018, 18:14
And....he was a reporter.......and a Washington Post reporter ...................and therefore an "enemy of the people".
I've heard many dictators around the world just love many of Trump's sound bites and have adopted them.

meadowrun
12th Oct 2018, 18:31
Per, I'll grant you Mossad is not perfect.
I've read a couple of books, other source material about them and know a former one of them and in the end, think that there is much pond scum not breathing this world's air thanks to them and that is a good thing.

Ancient Mariner
12th Oct 2018, 19:15
Per, I'll grant you Mossad is not perfect.
I've read a couple of books, other source material about them and know a former one of them and in the end, think that there is much pond scum not breathing this world's air thanks to them and that is a good thing.

That may well be, but I'm a law and order guy and no fan of vigilantes, executions without trial and state terrorism. I don't care which flag they operate under, including my own.
Per

meadowrun
12th Oct 2018, 19:57
The world gets nastier and nastier.

Chronus
12th Oct 2018, 20:06
Extensive reporting on:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-case-latest-updates-181010133542286.html

Including covert audio and video evidence of the assasination and identification of eight of the hit squad.
This story of brutality and barbarism makes our Skripal affair look so civilised and humane.
The interesting bit is whether evidence will ever come to light.

Hussar 54
12th Oct 2018, 21:28
Was he any relation to Adnan Khashoggi ?

Or is Khashoggi the equivalent of Smith and Wilson in the UK or Schmidt and Mueller in Germany ??

If he, in fact, is related then maybe he knew just a bit too much about how The West made and continues to keep the zillionaires in the Erga Palace in the manner to which they are accustomed.

.

DaveReidUK
12th Oct 2018, 21:39
Was he any relation to Adnan Khashoggi ?

Yes - his nephew.

meadowrun
12th Oct 2018, 21:54
What changed? Why was he now this target?
If he had the slightest suspicion this could happen to him on Saudi Diplomatic Territory, for some reason worthy of what allegedly happened, it is highly unlikely he would have gone there, and apparently, with advance notice..

Tashengurt
12th Oct 2018, 22:17
I'm sure state sponsored murder/ assassination has always been a thing but we seem to be entering a new era of brazeness.
Is this a result of the old order being shown, over decades, to be toothless tiger or because the new order has every nation so wrapped up in their own fate there is no room (or appetite) for the common good to be upheld?

Jack D
12th Oct 2018, 22:56
A Saudi interviewee on Al Jazeera claims Khashoggi was wearing a smart watch which was set to record and this was synchronized to his smart phone . Hence the live audio recording of events, I suppose that’s possible ? if true it would make for pretty damning evidence.... Being invited to an embassy and not coming out again or being immediately arrested is a favourite tactic apparently...

flash8
13th Oct 2018, 00:26
Suspect it was a bodged abduction attempt resulting in likely accidental death, they aren't exactly professional in anything our Saudi friends and they certainly aren't averse to a bit of torture.

Problem now is that the Saudis are digging a huge ditch for themselves with no way out which is precisely what you'd expect them to do, stick their heads in the sand so to speak.

Can't say it's not about time for a sea change which I suspect many have been waiting for the right moment to pounce.

WhatsaLizad?
13th Oct 2018, 01:30
I wonder if Erdogan's protests are more of a shakedown for large amounts of Saudi dollars or his personal fortune along with more public investments in Turkey to keep it afloat.

Once the deal is sealed, I would imagine the Turks protests and further cooperation with others worldwide will suddenly melt away.

flash8
13th Oct 2018, 02:05
The unexpected release of the pastor speaks volumes... think he is trying to rebuild US relations... it's gonna be tough for Turkey to back down from their statements as even unsourced they are pretty unequivocal.

rjtjrt
13th Oct 2018, 02:47
The world gets nastier and nastier.

I suspect the world has always been this nasty. It’s just we are hearing about it more now.

Chronus
13th Oct 2018, 19:39
I suspect the world has always been this nasty. It’s just we are hearing about it more now.

Spot on ! With the advent of IT we can now get the news instantly. The trouble is, it does not suite the purpose of those who crave for power and wealth, hence journalism is fast becoming a very risky occupation.
According to World Atlas topping the charts for most journalists banged up in prison is Turkey, with China in second place and Egypt in third. Saudi does not feature, perhaps because theirs pass prison and go straight to the chopping block.

flash8
13th Oct 2018, 19:58
According to World Atlas topping the charts for most journalists banged up in prison is Turkey.
Indeed, so it is a bit rich indignation coming from the mouth of Erdogan, still, anything that will give the Saudi "Government" a whipping is alright in my book and long overdue. If it weren't for oil of course they'd still be .... (and are in mentality) not allowed to mention such words though so imagination is best.

meadowrun
13th Oct 2018, 21:22
Must be a dilemma for them. Depleting oil reserves. Depleting need for oil. Not really much left in resources other than sand for concrete, artificial beaches, sand bags.........
Family (15,000 or so in the royal family there) has around a trillion, there's that sovereign fund. Tourism? - who really wants to go other ther than the Mecca pilgrims? Lot's of cheaper places to go with lots of barren land, debilitating heat and suffocating religious culture.
Manufacturing? Anyone ever bought something labeled "Made in Saudi Arabia" other than maybe a rug?
Maybe call centres would keep their people gainfully occupied.
A lot of people to keep in the manner they have been accustomed to.
They do seem to be swinging beyond their weight lately. That Canada thing...... They seem to think we could give a damn.
They think they have an ironclad friend in Donald and the 33 year old boss is not too smart or enlightened.

For reference. The British Royal Family has 24 members. (and a bunch lessers, sort of in but not really for the full blown royal type stuff)

fitliker
14th Oct 2018, 04:46
Is a Consulate Sovereign like an Embassy ?

flash8
14th Oct 2018, 12:35
Must be a dilemma for them. Depleting oil reserves. Depleting need for oil. Not really much left in resources other than sand for concrete, artificial beaches, sand bags.........
Family (15,000 or so in the royal family there) has around a trillion, there's that sovereign fund. Tourism? - who really wants to go other ther than the Mecca pilgrims? Lot's of cheaper places to go with lots of barren land, debilitating heat and suffocating religious culture.I heard recently the entire Middle East (excluding Israel) total GDP without oil would be less than Finland.

meadowrun
14th Oct 2018, 13:38
This just in:
Saudi Arabia is angry over Khashoggi murder accusations.
Promises retaliations if any sanctions are imposed.

Saudi Arabia had previously promised to help Turkey in the investigation. Sent (another) team.
No actual help has actually been forthcoming. Turkey has not been allowed any access to the consulate/embassy.
Would any investigative force ever contemplate allowing the prime subject in a criminal case assist in the investigation of that case?
LoonyToons.

ORAC
14th Oct 2018, 15:00
Is a Consulate Sovereign like an Embassy ?

".....Diplomatic premises are inviolable and may not be entered without the consent of the Ambassador or Head of Mission. The definition of diplomatic premises is buildings or part of buildings and the land ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for the purposes of the mission including the residence of the head of mission.

Similarly, consular premises are inviolable and may not be entered without the consent of the heard of the consular post or the head of the diplomatic mission. The definition of consular premises is buildings or parts of buildings and the land ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used exclusively for the purposes of the consular post.".....

fitliker
14th Oct 2018, 15:35
Some countries do not respect that Embassies are Sovereign soil . Iran , Libya for example have attacked embassies when it suits them .
But I do not remember the Saudis abusing Embassy Sovereignty. So technically anything that happened to this dual national happened to him when he was under the Sovereign control of the land of one of his nationalities and none of our business.
He was an educated man and should have known the risks of criticizing an absolute ruler. Pick a fight and lose .So sad ,too bad ,oh dear .
Dem the rules of the game ,do no like it .Do not play .

G-CPTN
14th Oct 2018, 15:54
This just in:
Saudi Arabia is angry over Khashoggi murder accusations.
Promises retaliations if any sanctions are imposed.
Can we expect military actions - or will the matter be swept under the (magic) carpet?

dook
14th Oct 2018, 16:07
Can we expect military actions

Not a chance, unless you include arms sales in that category.

DaveReidUK
14th Oct 2018, 17:51
So technically anything that happened to this dual national happened to him when he was under the Sovereign control of the land of one of his nationalities and none of our business.

Is this a wind-up ?

fitliker
14th Oct 2018, 18:59
Why would you think you can tell another country what it can or cannot do ?
How would you feel if they told you what you can do in what is your country ?
First without sin can cast the first stone .

Argonautical
14th Oct 2018, 19:05
fitliker

Pick a fight and lose .So sad ,too bad ,oh dear .
Dem the rules of the game ,do no like it .Do not play .

​​​​​​​One of the daftest posts I have seen for a long time.

Fareastdriver
14th Oct 2018, 20:15
We have about a million people in the UK pleading that their lives are in danger if the go back to their own country.

This guy just walked in.

ehwatezedoing
14th Oct 2018, 21:28
Pick a fight and lose .So sad ,too bad ,oh dear .
Dem the rules of the game ,do no like it .Do not play .
With this kind of mentality we would all still be living in the middle age....


oh, wait! Saudis/Middle age!? :p

ORAC
14th Oct 2018, 21:51
So technically anything that happened to this dual national happened to him when he was under the Sovereign control of the land of one of his nationalities and none of our business.

From the same source:

”Any offences committed in diplomatic premises in the are triable under the ordinary principles of host nation law, subject to the principles of diplomatic immunity for those who have it. Those who do not have this status (whatever their nationality) can be prosecuted as normal,”

Since the team of 15 reported to be involved were not diplomatic accredited staff, then the offences will have occurred under Turkish, not Saudi Arabian, law.

lomapaseo
15th Oct 2018, 01:13
We need to keep an open mind.

The missing person may have just had an unfortunate accident, like tripping down the cellar steps to where the guard dogs are kept before their night guard duties. Has anybody tested their feces for evidence of human material?.

fitliker
15th Oct 2018, 01:55
Not many seats left on the outrage bus .
Next stop nothing , east nowhere .

A bit Blackadder , how accidents befall those who insult absolute totalitarian rulers?

​​​​​​Usually those refugees do not return until they have a permanent residence card and a shipload of free stuff . Then it is bring the fours wives and ten grandparents and thirty seven cousin's in for free stuff .

Next outrage bus leaves just after the midnight news :)

Blacksheep
15th Oct 2018, 13:39
A Saudi interviewee on Al Jazeera claims Khashoggi was wearing a smart watch which was set to record and this was synchronized to his smart phone . Hence the live audio recording of events, I suppose that’s possible ?No, it's not. He has been photographed with an Apple Smart Watch 3. It communicates with an iPhone by Bluetooth and Version 3 can access the internet if it has an account - but there are no suitable services provided for this in Turkey. Even if his iPhone was in Bluetooth range and connected to the internet, the watch recording function must be switched off before the recorded content can be manually transferred - watch recordings are not "streamed". I doubt if he would be able to do this while being tortured - and he definitely couldn't do it after he'd been killed.

VP959
15th Oct 2018, 13:49
I suspect the fake story about the Apple watch recording may, in part, have been a cover for illicit recordings that Turkey may have made. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out at some point that the consulate was bugged, not that I think Turkey is going to want to own up to that, if it was.

lomapaseo
15th Oct 2018, 15:18
It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out at some point that the consulate was bugged, not that I think Turkey is going to want to own up to that, if it was.

All parties will do whatever is in their best interest whether above board or not (just like the US Congress)

flash8
15th Oct 2018, 19:27
I suspect the fake story about the Apple watch recording may, in part, have been a cover for illicit recordings that Turkey may have made. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we find out at some point that the consulate was bugged, not that I think Turkey is going to want to own up to that, if it was.Agreed VP, strongly also suspect this was the case. The Saudi's complete and utter denial is farcical and further down the line they may hope this blows over in a hazy he did she did they did possibly doubt ridden scenario. The weight of evidence against them however is overwhelming, you can even remove components of the evidence and it is still overwhelming. I don't think they'll fool anyone to be honest, this is almost as clear cut as you can get.

meadowrun
15th Oct 2018, 19:51
Except I wonder about good ole Turkey. Release the pastor all of sudden during the incident after two years? (Why?) Think that will be enough to get them back in Donald's good books?
There is still the possibility of a conspiracy by Turkey against Saudi. This all occurred in the Turkish controlled playground. What does Turkey have ongoing against the Saudis at the mo'? Ergodan doesn't like any media one bit unless they are his pets. How many does he have locked up since the grande coup?

All Saudi has to do if they have no guilt is to release every bit of surveillance data they have from the embassy. I am quite sure that embassy is wired for sound and video pretty well over every square foot. They are not doing that.

Hold on...late breaking news......Saudi lets Turkish investigators into embassy. How much of embassy?
And some media saying Saudis are preparing to say he was indeed killed, but as a result of an interrogation that went wrong.
You know like the - He was shot while trying to escape - type thing.
Now, above all, protect MBS.
Lie, lie, some more lies......lie.......

G-CPTN
15th Oct 2018, 19:52
I thought it brave that Trump has sent Pomeo to Saudi to enquire from Salman about the well-being of Khashoggi.

Chronus
15th Oct 2018, 20:15
If the antecedents to this scandal are considered it will be quite obvious that there is nothing sinister and the whereabouts of this chap should be obvious to anyone with a modicum of common sense.
It would appear the missing person originally called at his consulate in the USA, where he was told to shove off and go to their Consulate in Istanbul as the marriage was to take place in Turkey. So he dutyfully went and knocked on the door of his consulate in Istanbul. There he was told to come back in 10 days by which time his paperwork would be ready and waiting for him. Would it not therefore reasonable to conclude, he may have completed the wrong application form or owing to the renown hospitality of such as the Saudis, may well have been issued with a one way ticket to wed with seven guaranteed virgin brides instead of just one without a Consular guarantee stamp. All quite innocent and simply explainable reallly, so what`s all the fuss.

chuks
15th Oct 2018, 20:57
Trump is already parroting the fall-back position, that Mr. Khashoggi might have been killed by "rogue agents" of Saudi Arabia. That's okay then?

We should stand by for this team of 15 Saudis, at least those who do not have diplomatic status, to be sent back to Turkey to stand trial, when the man who ordered them sent turns out to be shocked, simply shocked that they went off to Istanbul on their own to scrag this fellow. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME

By the way, an embassy or consulate is not "sovereign soil." Those are premises which are immune from intrusion under all but extraordinary circumstances but the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul is on Turkish soil, and I assume that extra-judicial killing is not allowed to be done in Turkey by foreign nationals.

G-CPTN
15th Oct 2018, 21:16
When do we get the TV interview with the 15 tourists?

flash8
15th Oct 2018, 22:15
I think it likely that the fifteen were there for abduction purposes, after all it doesn't take that many to kill a man but may take that many for a transporting operation (via a private jet), additionally the KSA although backwards I doubt would want to kill him on the premises, thought this from the start and I suspect from recent news this is what they may present and only because now they have been backed into a corner.

The fifteen no doubt will be "cut loose" and penalised (even though they were likely following orders that originated from the top), the leadership will wring their hands stating they'd never dream of doing such a thing, conveniently ignoring the last two weeks they have had full knowledge of the situation but lied through their teeth.

In the end though, however they spin it, and spin it they will, they have been exposed to a much wider audience for what they are, there will always be the suspicion he was murdered, and that it were allegedly an "accident" makes it no less abhorrent.

tartare
15th Oct 2018, 23:10
I'd wondered if someone got a little too enthusiastic during an interrogation.
Aside from poor Mr Khashoggi I suspect members of the `abduction' squad may not be in a very good place at the moment either, if they are still on this earth.
Having globally embarrassed a vain and bullying King.
Oh dear...

G-CPTN
15th Oct 2018, 23:13
No doubt it was self-defence.

So that's alright . . .

RatherBeFlying
16th Oct 2018, 05:00
Given his age and portly build, it's quite possible that an overenthusiastic attempt to persuade him to complete the necessary paperwork in the home country triggered a fatal cardiovascular event - or an adverse reaction to any drugs administered.

Toxicology or marks on the body would result in embarrassing questions should an ambulance be called.

So it was decided to return the snatch crew and hope denials would be believed.

The scapegoats will be doing time in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton where they can make themselves useful in other interrogations.

ehwatezedoing
16th Oct 2018, 05:09
Trump is already parroting the fall-back position, that Mr. Khashoggi might have been killed by "rogue agents" of Saudi Arabia. That's okay then?
.
Such a “convenient” explanation....

Andy_S
16th Oct 2018, 08:27
The Saudi's complete and utter denial is farcical and further down the line they may hope this blows over....... The weight of evidence against them however is overwhelming, you can even remove components of the evidence and it is still overwhelming. I don't think they'll fool anyone to be honest, this is almost as clear cut as you can get.

The same could be said of Russia and the Skripals of course, yet some will still insist there is no evidence and the whole thing is a bizarre anti-Russian plot.......

The AvgasDinosaur
16th Oct 2018, 09:55
Fingerprints = visit
Blood = Violent visit
Brain matter = Terminal visit.
Interesting to note that Trump has started to set up a potential, if doubtful, alibi "Rogue elements"
Be lucky
David

lomapaseo
16th Oct 2018, 12:17
Give a thought to what is the end game here between parties.

Is it to confess and promise not to do it again (without any punishment?

is it to explain it's somebody else fault and let's not let it interfere in the business of trade?

Is it to ignore all outsiders and continue as if nothing will come of it?

Is it to announce some sort of punishment that involves as many innocent parties as well, such that the punishment will be mostly symbolic in hopes that other issues will take over the news interest?

meadowrun
16th Oct 2018, 14:50
Game?

Well it is like dealing with a bunch of not very bright children in a playground somewhere with a sandbox.

Flash2001
16th Oct 2018, 18:23
The news this morning is that the Saudis are contemplating admitting a "mistake". Some years ago this was called a "modified limited hang-out". Anyone else remember?

After an excellent landing etc...

G-CPTN
16th Oct 2018, 18:26
I remember an American (?) politician admitting that she 'mis-spoke'.

VP959
16th Oct 2018, 18:53
The news this evening is reporting that of the 15 people that arrived before the disappearance of Mr Khashoggi, one was a forensics expert and one was carrying a bone saw in his luggage...

Chronus
16th Oct 2018, 19:49
Of far greater importance than how this fellow met an untimely demise is the impunity in the manner in which the act was carried out.With the full knowledge of the immunity afforded to its perpetrators and falgrant abuse of its privileges. Such an act could not have been carried out without the full knowledge and consent of those holding high rank in office.
Here is an extract from Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations:
Article 29 of the VCDR states that:

"The person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. The receiving state shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity."

It is possible that this event lead to reconsideration of the Vienna Convention.

Our CPS guidance is informative on this subject. The link is

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/diplomatic-immunity-and-diplomatic-premises

obgraham
16th Oct 2018, 21:15
I can't figure out why we think this behavior is something new in the Mid-East mindset. And somehow we think that we will be able to get a "transparent investigation and report". When has that ever been the case when it comes to countries like Turkey and Saudi Arabia? The truth is of no importance to them.

chuks
16th Oct 2018, 21:34
"The truth is of no importance to them," says one of the biggest boosters of Donald Trump to be found here on Jet Blast!

How important is the truth to Donald Trump? With him it was first that it did not matter, and now that it was probably rogue killers. (Yeah, it's a known problem, rogue killers haunting the halls of embassies and consulates.) Could it be a much more likely truth that the real power behind the Saudi throne it was who sent those people to deal with one of the Kingdom's critics? No, not the King, but certainly the ruler of Saudi Arabia. Not according to Donald Trump and his loyal clique, because "the truth is of no importance to them."

Feel free, OB, to tell us how much you care about objective truth as you celebrate the way that Trump is "winning."

Lonewolf_50
16th Oct 2018, 21:55
@chuks, could you please keep that personalization and baiting in the US Politics Hamsterwheel rather than derailing this discussion?
Seriously.
OB's point about the lousy track record the Saudis have on transparency is on-topic for this thread.
Your knee jerk having-a-go-at-him over the usual hamster wheel crap you two trade with each other isn't.

While I am pretty sure that the US official PR machine will make a meal of this, that ball's still in play; we'll see how messy it gets.

@VP959
Was this a humorous post, or are you dead serious about this bit?
The news this evening is reporting that of the 15 people that arrived before the disappearance of Mr Khashoggi, one was a forensics expert and one was carrying a bone saw in his luggage... If true, then :eek:

G-CPTN
16th Oct 2018, 22:02
Details of the Saudi citizens who travelled to Istanbul were released amid a claim that they had brought with them a bone saw to dismember Khashoggi.
It was in the Guarniad . . .
details of alleged Saudi hit squad emerge (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/alleged-saudi-hit-squad-linked-to-jamal-khashoggi-disappearance)

lomapaseo
16th Oct 2018, 22:36
No doubt the Saudis did it, but it will be denied as to what level that ordered it.

So once again the press and many posters are wringing their hands and calling for punishment of the highest level

but what should that be? and who should decide?

and just who was harmed??? and what laws were broken?

Should it be only the US that decides? or can we take it to a UN court for a few years?

reynoldsno1
17th Oct 2018, 00:45
Mike Pompeo looked pretty relaxed, smiling & laughing, as he arrived to give MBS a good telling off - i.e. passing the message that that 'stern measures' will be announced by the US against Saudi, but that 'stern measures' will never be implemented.

flash8
17th Oct 2018, 03:07
Yes I also noticed... continuously smiling... seemed like he was on holiday. No sense of decorum.

jack11111
17th Oct 2018, 03:30
The presence of a 'bone saw', if true, suggests to me conquer and divide was high up on list of options.
MBS is more thin-skinned the DJT

sitigeltfel
17th Oct 2018, 06:19
Of far greater importance than how this fellow met an untimely demise is the impunity in the manner in which the act was carried out.With the full knowledge of the immunity afforded to its perpetrators and falgrant abuse of its privileges. Such an act could not have been carried out without the full knowledge and consent of those holding high rank in office.
Here is an extract from Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations:
Article 29 of the VCDR states that:

"The person of a diplomatic agent shall be inviolable. He shall not be liable to any form of arrest or detention. The receiving state shall treat him with due respect and shall take all appropriate steps to prevent any attack on his person, freedom or dignity."

It is possible that this event lead to reconsideration of the Vienna Convention.

Our CPS guidance is informative on this subject. The link is

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/diplomatic-immunity-and-diplomatic-premises

The Libyans did it in London, in full view of dozens of witnesses, and got away with it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher

tartare
17th Oct 2018, 07:01
With a caution that it is The Mail - and a warning that if true, this is gruesome:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6281303/Turkish-investigators-say-looking-toxic-materials-Khashoggi-murder-probe.html

Uncle Fred
17th Oct 2018, 07:03
It seems that the U.S. willingly wishes to be played by MbS as a small priceto pay in its (the U.S.') quest to go after Iran. It is not often that one sees such a display of target fixation that the U.S. has toward Iran--the latest example being the grinning Pompeo as he flew half-way around the world to signal to MbS that everything is fine and proceed on course.

Sadly, you have to hand it to the Saudis however. They have played Trump and the dauphin like a cheap fiddle and continue to do so. It would be one thing for Trump to have remained silent about this, but his full-throttled endorsement of MbS over the past three days is breathtaking.

chuks
17th Oct 2018, 07:13
Actually, there's this unholy agglomeration of Saudi brutal repression of comment on what they are running in their sandbox, with them reaching out to touch dissidents on foreign soil (Khashoggi is merely the latest victim; there have been others who've been disappeared before this), and the way that many others are perfectly willing to give them a pass because of the amount of money they have at their disposal.

Donald Trump quite openly cited the $110 billion in weapons sales the US is making to Saudi Arabia as a factor in his obvious willingness to ignore the probable truth of what happened in Istanbul to a journalist for "The Washington Post." Now if this does not tie into his naming our free press as an "enemy of the people," along with the way that he's quite opposed to the notion of objective truth being something of supreme value, what does tie into this horrible event?

What OB, and now Wile E. Coyote, are doing is to attempt to uncouple US domestic politics from events abroad, when the way that Trump has shown himself not just willing to ignore the way dictators various hold power but to admire them for that should be impossible to gloss over. (In fact there's a fever dream of liberalism and tolerance on the run from the ascendancy of far-right ways of holding power.)

Trump and his faction are thought-leaders in this celebration of the erosion of democratic rule, closely followed not just by the Saudis but also by the Turkish ruler Erdoğan. (It's quite ironic that Erdoğan now finds himself forced to act on behalf of Turkish sovereignty since it seems that the Saudis were so clumsy as to have murderd Khashoggi instead of neatly disappearing him to Riad to face their version of justice there. At a guess Erdoğan would have been quite happy to see Khashoggi back in Saudi, the place he originally came from, to make this a problem for the USA with Saudi Arabia, one that could easily have been handled by lying and unconcerned Donald Trump. Instead, the Turks are now forced to act since Khashoggi seems to have been murdered on Turkish soil.)

It would be nice if we could look at the events in Istanbul in isolation, as Trump invites us to (Khashoggi not a US citizen, merely a US resident; probably done in by "rogue killers"; $110 billion in weapon sales an over-riding priority; so "Meh"). We should not do that, though. There's a rather direct line between what is going on with Trump in the States and what the Saudis seem to have done in Istanbul, when part of that is, yes, that the truth is of no importance to rulers in the Middle East. The truth is of even less importance to Donald Trump and his Republican clique presently ruling the USA, though. (In fact it might be of importance, but of importance as a thing to be fought against by all possible means.) All of this enjoins us to look at all things together, not separately. Of course doing that is to be troublingly correct and intelligent instead of happily wrong and stupid.

Seeking and proclaiming truth means going against the way the tide is running both abroad and at home, but some of us still "believe these truths to be self-evident."

DaveReidUK
17th Oct 2018, 08:36
The BBC's Martin Patience got it about right when he described Pompeo's meetings as "a diplomatic clean-up tour".

sitigeltfel
17th Oct 2018, 13:39
Kay Burley (Sky News) .....

"The missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi is either alive or dead."


Elementary, my dear Watson !

chuks
17th Oct 2018, 13:45
Thank God for a free press! I never could have figured out that it is between these two alternatives, dead or alive, if left to my own devices.

ExDubai
17th Oct 2018, 13:52
I know it's a turkish media outlet but it looks like the Suadis roundup the scapegoats:
https://twitter.com/DailySabah/status/1052537083594661889


Edit: Reuters also reporting it: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-dissident-investigation-consul/saudi-consul-in-istanbul-relieved-of-post-to-be-investigated-report-idUSKCN1MR1SG?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=Social&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true

I hope the guy left a couple of notes with different lawyers....

DaveReidUK
17th Oct 2018, 14:25
Report now pulled from Reuters, though still showing on some other press sites:

DUBAI, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's Consul General in Istanbul, where prominent Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi disappeared, has been relieved of his post and will be investigated, according to an official statement carried by Sabq newspaper on Wednesday. The Saudi online newspaper did not give details of those violations which the consul Mohammad al-Otaibi is being investigated for. (Reporting by Asma Alsharif; Editing by Michael Georgy)

DaveReidUK
17th Oct 2018, 14:38
Some more gruesome, though obviously unconfirmed, details in Turkey's Hürriyet Daily News about the circumstances of Khashoggi's torture, murder and dismemberment:

Saudi journalist Khashoggi decapitated after fingers cut off: Reports - Turkey News (http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/saudi-journalist-khashoggi-decapitated-after-fingers-cut-off-reports-137960)

Lonewolf_50
17th Oct 2018, 15:13
Trump has shown himself not just willing to ignore the way dictators various hold power but to admire them for that should be impossible to gloss over.
Not the first president to do this, and doubtless not the last.
You will note that Jimmy Carter didn't back a coup to throw out Pinochet, for example. Where's your {fake} outrage on that one, chuks?
What Carter did do, though, was pull the US out of the Olympics in 1980 over Soviets in Afghanistan in 1979. This scotched some trade deals with the Soviets (to include Coca-Cola and Levi Strauss, among others) that were going to be a part of the détente idea that was alive and well back then. It was a set back (perhaps modest) for American companies. (My brother's interview with Coca Cola in Atlanta was all about him speaking Russian, and him being a hire for the team that ended up not going there. There wasn't a job for him all of a sudden ... ) Did Carter look good doing that? That really depended upon who you were and what your PoV was. That entire Olympic Team got kicked in the face; the opinion of pundits was mixed in terms of "good idea/bad idea" on that one.

The American relationship with the Saudis has been fraught with a variety of contradictions since the 1973 Yom Kippur war, and for that matter, before. For your further education, please read The Prize. (Daniel Yergin). I am not sure how this (apparent) murder is of greater moment than the various high level geopolitical issues that have been coloring the relationship between Washington and the Saudis since they demanded gold, not credit, for their petrol during WW II (FDR's problem to solve). EDIT: just read DavidReid's link. Yikes, that's gruesome. Sounds like the kind of New Jersey Mafia butchery that was part of the story of Donny Brasco (movie based on some RL goings on in the Mafia's home turf ...)

It is somewhat ironic (to my eye) that the official reaction to both Putin and the Saudis regarding them taking out their people via murder is muted, while at the same time Putin's team and the Saudi team are on opposite sides of the mess in Syria for the last seven years. Prez Trump appears to be holding roughly to Obama's approach on that: back the Saudi play. None of this is as simple as you pretend it to be.

I saw a brief tidbit on the news a few days ago where in the Prez asserted that scotching the arms deal hurts the US more than it hurts the Saudis. I suspect that he's not lying about that. It is no surprise, then, that he won't do that. (This decision is different from, for example, decisions some years ago vis a vis the Pakistanis with F-16's and the 'soon to be retired' frigates that were withheld from sale/transfer, but from my foggy memory Congress got quite involved in that one...).

Does it make Trump look callous? Yes, it does. Does it make him consistent with previous policy vis a vis the Saudis? Roughly, yes, and roughly no.

Here's something for your further education as well. After Gulf War I, and before the 2003 "lets head to Iraq for an extended vacation, kids!" Donald Rumsfeld (Bush 43) continued on with what his predecessors in the Clinton administration slowly but surely did: extracted US presence "on the ground" in Saudi. (PSAB transition to Al Udeid as CENTAF FWD's major operating base being one of a number of major changes).
For further reading on that, read On Point, which was a professional assessment of the ground war in 2003. Of particular interest is the first parts, before the LD was crossed, that covered the time period between 1991 and 2003; one might say that the effect was to turn parts of Kuwait into a forward operating base. EDIT: you'll find most of that here in Chapter 2. (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/2004/onpoint/ch-2.htm) I doubt you have the attention span to read the whole thing.

What "punishment" will finally come to pass for the Saudis pulling this off in Turkey?
Not much, regardless of the bluster that came out of Washington soon after the news broke.

On a personal note: I'd appreciate it if you stopped with your lying, and pigeon holing, as regards me. It is beneath you, or it used to be.

chuks
17th Oct 2018, 16:10
Just after the coup in Chile I took a side job house- and dog-sitting for a Chilean family, whose daughter was a friend of my then-girlfriend. When I finally got a close look around the place there in the living room was a framed photograph of General Pinochet. It turned out that I was taking care of the dog that belonged to one of his sisters, I think it was.

Cast your mind back, Lonewolf, and see if you can come up with another sitting US President who has lavished as much praise, shown as much credulity towards, various dictators as Donald Trump has? Literally to tell us that he's fallen in love with Kim Jong Un, and that he believes Putin over what our own intelligence services have told him in some detail is just insane, nothing more, nothing less. Sure we hand out the odd set of warm fuzzies to this or that monster, but what Trump is doing is far beyond the pale.

PM me with concrete examples of how I have targeted you with lies and pigeon-holing and I will see what I can do about that, Lonewolf.

HyFlyer
17th Oct 2018, 16:40
Thank God for a free press! I never could have figured out that it is between these two alternatives, dead or alive, if left to my own devices.


Actually I think Schrodinger had it about right here. The guy went into the Embassy and never came out. We have no proof he's alive or dead. So right now he's in a quantum State of both in respect to all external observers. QED.

.

Mac the Knife
17th Oct 2018, 16:51
"The news this evening is reporting that of the 15 people that arrived before the disappearance of Mr Khashoggi, one was a forensics expert and one was carrying a bone saw in his luggage..."

There are dozens of kinds of bone-saw, ranging from the old hand-used to the modern electro/pneumatic - I sincerely doubt whether any non-surgeon would have been able to identify it as such. And a Gigli saw (very efficient) just looks like a length of twisted wire with a loop for the handles on each end.

Anyway, a tenon-saw from 100 years ago works fine (if correctly sharpened and set) - had to use one once, so I can vouch for that.

Mac

ethicalconundrum
17th Oct 2018, 16:58
Not surprising but I'm going to take a more wait and see approach to the situation, including how the US responds. We have a lot of armchair quarterbacking taking digs at the admin for not going off half cocked and blaming the entire Saud royal family, including the country's power elite for the disappearance and likely death of the reporter. Although Saudi authority is pretty monolithic, it is not completely one voice over there. If there is a conspiracy that includes the ruling family, or if there is evidence of such, I'm pretty sure Trump will react for the best interests of the American citizens. I'm not sure what it'll be, but I doubt he would cancel an arms deal worth billions over the murder by some fifth column within Saudi.

It may be scapegoating now that the issue has blown up all over the world. I don't think we'll ever know who gave the order. But the royal family is denying it right now, and unless or until they admit something, I think it's best to wait and let the press and the coppers find out what happened, and who caused it to happen. Trump just got done with another case of guilty by innuendo and accusation. He prevailed there, and I wouldn't bet that he doesn't make this work somehow too, even if the top echelon of he Saud family had their hands in this.

RatherBeFlying
17th Oct 2018, 17:58
Somehow I doubt that MbS will be showing his face outside Saudi, especially after he's indicted by the ICC. Well maybe he can vacation in Sudan and commiserate with a fellow ICC indictee:p

The Turks are in a bit of a financial straitjacket and could use some financial help that likely will not be forthcoming from Saudi.

Methinks Qatar will be only too happy to help once the tapes are released;)

ethicalconundrum
17th Oct 2018, 17:59
Just in, CBS is reporting that the Saudi govt might be admitting to the death as an 'interrogation gone wrong' resulting in his death.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudis-expected-admit-khashoggi-killed-151115147.html

I'm not buying. Accidental death? By interrogation of a journalist? Inside a diplomatic consulate? Of a US citizen? Critical of the Saudi govt and family? What are we - imbeciles? This was murder for hire by the royals. Trump is in a bad spot now.

Turbine D
17th Oct 2018, 18:22
Audio Contains Gruesome Details of Khashoggi Killing, Turkish Official Says
Things are becoming clearer, day by day. Turkey holds all the cards in this matter. A senior Turkish official confirmed the details that were published in the pro-government daily newspaper Yeni Safak. It will be interesting to see how Trump props up his immature Saudi Crown Prince now. Turkey has Trump in a vise that is closing fast. Pompeo is walking into a minefield arriving in Turkey on Trump’s behalf just as the bad news breaks, too bad! The immature Saudi Crown Prince has to go if there is to be a US - Saudi relationship going forward.

VP959
17th Oct 2018, 18:36
Just in, CBS is reporting that the Saudi govt might be admitting to the death as an 'interrogation gone wrong' resulting in his death.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudis-expected-admit-khashoggi-killed-151115147.html

I'm not buying. Accidental death? By interrogation of a journalist? Inside a diplomatic consulate? Of a US citizen? Critical of the Saudi govt and family? What are we - imbeciles? This was murder for hire by the royals. Trump is in a bad spot now.

I don't believe that Mr Kashoggi is a US citizen, as I understand it from what's been reported, he just works for a US company, but remains a Saudi citizen. As such, I'd guess that the Saudis may view this action as no different to beheading someone within their own country, as what they did happened on their sovereign territory, in effect. We may well think that they've behaved like animals, but then the same could be said about their frequent and many human rights abuses in their own country, about which we do nothing.

ethicalconundrum
17th Oct 2018, 18:38
I can pretty much gar-on-tee Trump is not going to interfere in internal family of Saud govt squabbles. That's a no win move on all fronts. Going to be a real mess to sort out.

DaveReidUK
17th Oct 2018, 18:40
I'm not buying. Accidental death? By interrogation of a journalist? Inside a diplomatic consulate? Of a US citizen? Critical of the Saudi govt and family? What are we - imbeciles?

It can so easily happen.

TqKfwC70YZI

ethicalconundrum
17th Oct 2018, 18:40
I don't believe that Mr Kashoggi is a US citizen, as I understand it from what's been reported, he just works for a US company, but remains a Saudi citizen. As such, I'd guess that the Saudis may view this action as no different to beheading someone within their own country, as what they did happened on their sovereign territory, in effect. We may well think that they've behaved like animals, but then the same could be said about their frequent and many human rights abuses in their own country, about which we do nothing.

You are correct, my apology for the error. I thought he had become a US citizen, but that is not accurate. And, your analysis is also correct, that we might condemn it, the family of Saud might simply see it as correcting an internal national fault.

Chronus
17th Oct 2018, 19:39
The Libyans did it in London, in full view of dozens of witnesses, and got away with it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yvonne_Fletcher

Yes, not forgetting Lockerbie and also what happened to Gadaffi and Libya since. That is despite their oil and what good has all their oil done for them and their dust bowl.
The civilised people of this world need to stand united against such acts, no matter what economic consequences there may ensue. Tyranny is the by product of loss of freedoms. History has proven it time and time again. The US has stood as the principal nation intolerant of it, ever ready, equipped to fight and wipe it out wherever it exists. Let`s see how Trump goes with this one. I wonder will he stick to his banner of for Americans and for no one else. Just as he did in getting his pastor out of the Turkish jail. Or will he decide it is nothing to do with us, say innocent until proven guilty, and a few tut tuts for good measure in expressing disapproval of the whole messy business of saws, poisons and butchery and a team of fifteen to take out a little bloke who would have difficulty in holding down a chiwawa. Not exactly cricket I`d say.

Uncle Fred
17th Oct 2018, 19:55
This is interesting as it is always a fine line between having someone disappeared and having the punishment visible enough to send a message. Not quite sure where this falls other than a message has indeed been sent.

Lonewolf brings up a good point about the ups and downs that not only the U.S. but the entire West has had over the years with the House of Saud. Tough situation. My personal preference however, would be for Trump and Pompeo to drop the unctous servility. Irrespective of how past presidents or other western leaders have played the lackey in front of the Saudis, a little spine would be reassuring--even if they are unable to influence the situation that much..

I am surprised at the volume of the voices in Congress however. They are chirping loudly but I imagine those protests will be quited should there be any financial loss to the district.

flash8
17th Oct 2018, 21:23
I am surprised at the volume of the voices in Congress however.
Likely the daggers have been out for some time with regards to KSA and MBS, this was the kind of opportunity many were waiting/hoping for.

For the liberal media this story has multiple advantages, whipping the KSA (quite rightly so) and engineering a significant (and potentially unrecoverable in this instance) blow to Trumps credibility, I think he fails to understand what this could do to his presidency, grinning pompeo looked like an utter fool.

The KSA keep on digging a ditch... this time it may well be a game changer as the evidence if verified as credible seems extremely damaging at the very least.

obgraham
17th Oct 2018, 21:39
A question for those of you who cannot seem to discuss this matter without turning it around to Trump (Chux, Turb, etc):

What do you think the US position should be vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, and precisely what specific steps should the US take in the very near future to accomplish your position?

No waffling or word-salading allowed.

Uncle Fred
17th Oct 2018, 22:05
OB, while I would not pretend to say exactly what the U.S. should do I think reevaluating its view toward Iran would be helpful. With the U.S. now a net energy exporter, it is no longer so sewn to the teat of the Saudis. Yet they are locked in an embrace with KSA over Iran.

The Kingdom of course wishes the U.S. to be its hired hand and despatch those oh so naughty Iranians for them. Why not? If the Saudis play it right the U.S. will want to do this as it intersects its view that subduing Iran will be good for themselves and its allies in the Middle East. Thus forms the virtuous circle.

Except that there are cracks in this model--some quite deep as you probably know. Yes the Iranians stir up trouble but choosing sides in a sectarian strife is fraught with more danger than I would wish on the plate.

There are no clear answers and so asking for concrete suggestions is a nudge off the mark. One is better to speak of least worst arrangements. Again, past craveness aside, having Jared and MbS in a lip-lock does not seem to be along that path. Whether the conversation rounds to Trump is almost unavoidable as he is the President. I am not saying that Iran does not need minding, but it seems that the U.S. is so fixated on it that it not only keeps them from more important tasks, but that it locks them into a ME strategy that could lead to further instability and even widened armed conflict.

tartare
17th Oct 2018, 22:47
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?
Who's going to make him go?
His father - I don't think so.

DaveReidUK
17th Oct 2018, 23:01
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?

"Should", not "will".

G-CPTN
17th Oct 2018, 23:09
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?

Maybe in the same manner (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/exclusive-khashoggi-829291552) as Khashoggi departed?

Seems only fair - an eye for an eye and all that . . .

Mac the Knife
17th Oct 2018, 23:50
"What do you think the US position should be vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, and precisely what specific steps should the US take in the very near future to accomplish your position?"

Difficult. Kashoggi is no Perdicaris (whose claim to American citizenship turned out to be dubious in the end). Kashoggi is/was a Saudi Arabian journalist resident in the USA - no idea what his visa status was. He was effectively a Saudi dissident but not a refugee.

Legally I doubt whether the USA has/had any responsibility for him - probably not. His murder in Istanbul, took place on diplomatic Saudi territory (the Embassy).

Nasty, sure. But Trump has made it clear that the USA is no longer prepared to act as a global policeman or ethics enforcer.

Practically, I don't think that the USA is obliged to do anything (retaliation, cancellation of military hardware orders) at all.

Mac

fitliker
18th Oct 2018, 00:38
Someone in Turkey will have some explaining as to how they came into possession of video and audio recordings of the inside of a Consulate .
There are lots of ex-soldier types who will be getting a bonus just in time for the holidays .

ethicalconundrum
18th Oct 2018, 01:31
Nasty, sure. But Trump has made it clear that the USA is no longer prepared to act as a global policeman or ethics enforcer.

Practically, I don't think that the USA is obliged to do anything (retaliation, cancellation of military hardware orders) at all.

Mac

The first is quite true. However, the world still looks and listens to the US just the same as before.

While the US may not have an obligation, it makes for really bad optics. Our situation with Iran, who is a known exporter of terror, and internal civil rights mistakes will and should be expected to treat like failures the same. Why does the Saud family get a pass on state sponsored murder(as they are not admitting yet to a justified reason to kill him for cause) while Iran is ostracized and the US works to keep others from trading with them?

jolihokistix
18th Oct 2018, 01:47
I am not wishing to excuse anyone, but people often say that Iran is a "known exporter of terror". Is it really?

Surely any terror exported is Shia-based, usually against Sunni Arab governments in the ME, in order to foment revolution within the Sunni-Shia power structure. And usually anti-IS to boot. Against allies of those governments such as Israel too.

Certainly it is not Sunni terror against the West of the type that has become all too common recently.

meadowrun
18th Oct 2018, 01:53
In semi response to an above question - What exactly was the real US position on KSA two weeks ago, and in the hallowed halls, What is the real current position on KSA?
All this pandering goes beyond oil, bullet sales and military ally(? cough....cough...cough.....).

"Dispatch" Iran? What does that mean? Can that ever happen? Does dispatching mean turning them into a cowering poodle puppy of a country? What will there be if they are dispatched? Another re-energizing of the ME fill the vacuum machine? Not going to happen unless Iran goes Nuclear Insane.

obgraham
18th Oct 2018, 03:35
Well lookie here...we can have an honest discussion about a difficult problem. Good!

There is no easy answer. The US has been in cahoots with KSA since oil was discovered there. I don’t see the benefit of throwing that away just because they act like the medieval thugs we always knew they were. Likewise, I’m not sure switching despots will accomplish much or contribute to peace.

We go through these cycles all the time. We have to deal with some dirtballs in order to get things done. Periodically we get all righteous, and decide to only deal with upstanding freedom lovers. That approach usually comes back to bite us. Clinton tried that with the CIA, and emasculated the place.

We don’t have to love the Saudis, but it is still in our interests to deal with them.

tartare
18th Oct 2018, 03:45
Not surprised that the Saudi Embassy is wired with all sorts of mics/bugs.
Am a little surprised that Fort Meade (and therefore POTUS) doesn't already have a copy of the audio in question - because I'm darned sure they would monitor Genelkurmay Elektronik Sistemler - the Turkish SIGINT spooks... unless of course they're not saying.... ;)

RatherBeFlying
18th Oct 2018, 06:37
That's what farmers do with dogs that kill a chicken.

MbS just did that to himself.

Pompeo and Trump are eagerly following suit:}

chuks
18th Oct 2018, 06:50
When a wedding feast gets blown sky-high, or someone just going about his lawful business, not bothering anyone, gets turned into red mist, isn't that some sort of terrorism, some sort of infliction of sudden and extreme violence? Well, our last President, recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize, did more of that sort of thing than his immediate predecessor, plus he seemed to get along just fine with the Saudis.

Years ago (in a bar, of course) an Arab friend told me that he really saw little difference between dropping a bomb from an aircraft, and putting one in the back of a truck as an alternate way to deliver one. (In fact the pilot of the bomber is merely a participant, but the suicide truck bomber ... he is dedicated.) He seemed to have got that one right, actually.

I think that we Americans do have some very powerful tools we can use against tyrants and for basic freedoms, tools that do not involve violence but just words, words often put out by journalists such as the late (presumably) Mr. Khashoggi.

Trump is too dishonest to find the publication of truth to be anything but a threat. He's deeply involved in scraping a living by selling his big pink arse to anyone with lots of money, so do not expect him to suddenly wake up to how we can still weaponize truth as we have done in the past. To expose the rulers of Saudi Arabia would mean exposing Donald Trump and his gimcrack Trump Organization too.

In this one Trump has put us on the wrong side, so far. He's parroting the Saudi line(s) because of this somewhat made-up pile of 110 billion dollars in weapons sales. Too, of course, Trump still stands by his ranting against our free press, even calling it "an enemy of the people." (No Donald, it is an enemy of you, because you are a crook and a lowlife.) Do you really expect Trump to do one of his famous 180s now, to speak up for the sort of work that seems to have cost Khashoggi his life? (Bear in mind that Khashoggi was writing for the Washington Post, one of Trump's prime targets for defamation.) The poor bastard, not even a US citizen, seems to have died for embodying a basic US value, when our sitting President is stomping all over our right to freedom of speech, our right to speak truth to power. Now, there is irony!

We armed and trained the Saudis and then turned them loose to do what they wanted to. (Well, sort of the same as we have done with the Israelis, and not so long ago did with the Iranians.) Expect a bit of a fuss over this very, very awkward move, Trump's Saudi friends murdering one of their own on Turkish soil in a very clumsy and brutal way, and being caught at that. On the other hand, do not expect us, led by Trump, to really change the way we behave towards Saudi Arabia.

By the way: An embassy or consulate is not sovereign territory of some foreign power. That Saudi consulate is on Turkish soil. Turkey extends certain diplomatic protections to it, behaving as if it's sovereign Saudi territory, but it is still on Turkish soil. In legal terms there's no difference between killing someone in Istanbul in the Saudi consul's office, or else doing that right in front of Hagia Sophia before hundreds of onlookers; both places are Turkish soil. In practical terms, sure, you can slaughter some guy like a sheep when nobody is looking, but that has nothing to do with legality.

Andy_S
18th Oct 2018, 11:31
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly? Who's going to make him go?


One thing we ought to have learned in recent years is that precipitating regime change is fraught with unintended consequences. As obgraham observes, at best you would replace one tyrant with another. At worst, you would destabilise and create a power vacuum in an already volatile region. Even if you just cut the regime loose, stopped supporting them, doing business with them, selling them military hardware, you can guarantee that someone else – the Chinese or more likely the Russians – will be more than happy to step in.

Turbine D
18th Oct 2018, 15:42
Original Post by Obgraham
A question for those of you who cannot seem to discuss this matter without turning it around to Trump (Chux, Turb, etc):

What do you think the US position should be vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, and precisely what specific steps should the US take in the very near future to accomplish your position?

No waffling or word-salading allowed.

Our position should be the exact opposite of Trump's current position. Saudi Arabia isn't a staunch ally of the United States in the Middle East. Matter of fact we have only one staunch Middle East ally, Israel. How can one not turn this around to Trump? He thrust himself into the middle of this current Saudi situation with his usual big mouth and know it all ego. His position is based on self intrests: From Fox News Research:
Trump & Saudi Business:

1991: Sold yacht to Saudi Prince
2001: Sold 45th floor of Trump World Tower to Saudis
Jun 2015: I love the Saudis…many in Trump Tower
Aug 2015: “They buy apartments from me…Spend $40M-$50M
2017: Saudi lobbyists spent $250K at Trump DC hotel
The fact is the United States doesn't have any true "friends" in the Arab Middle East Muslim sphere, just acquaintances, some slightly more friendly than others. Lest one forget, most of the fighters in Iraq were Saudis that backfilled after Saddam's military disintegrated, they killed and maimed many American soldiers and the Saudi Royals did nothing but twiddle their thumbs. Personal and country friendships develop based on shared values. The United States has no shared values with Saudi Arabia. Each country had economic needs. The US at one time needed Saudi oil, the Saudis needed US money and top notch US military armaments. Times have changed. We don't need Saudi oil, but they still need US money and top notch military equipment to counter Iran, a Sunni - Shia war cloaked in political differences these days. Regimes in the Middle East change. Remember the Shah of Iran? He was a so called "friend" of the US and we sold him top notch military armaments that included F-14 fighter jets, among the best we had at the time. Iran still has them, their just aren't flyable. Today Iran isn't a US "friend" but an adversary. This is the reality of relationships in the Middle East Arab world today, no different than yesteryears, but often not recognized.

So my take on today's Saudi Arabia situation is this:

Should the murder of Khashoggi be confirmed with the Saudi Royal Family, the young Prince leader specifically, knowledge and leadership, then the US needs to discreetly let the King know the US can't go forward with the US/Saudi relationship enjoyed prior to this incident, the King needs to pick a different Prince to rule Saudi Arabia. Then,
The US arms sales to the Saudis needs to be tabled until we see a positive response.
The US should reduce oil purchases from Saudi Arabia, to zero if necessary.
The US should curtail Saudi government/citizen freedom of movement in the US.
The US should limit Saudi investments in the US particularly those involving high-technology startups (Silicon Valley)
The Saudi regime is nothing more than a family run dictatorship, don't ever think they have US interests on the top of their value list.

Clear enough for you, obgraham? So how about you, no waffling or word-salading allowed...

Turbine D
18th Oct 2018, 15:57
obgraham,
There is no easy answer. The US has been in cahoots with KSA since oil was discovered there. I don’t see the benefit of throwing that away just because they act like the medieval thugs we always knew they were. Likewise, I’m not sure switching despots will accomplish much or contribute to peace.
Just saw this, so now why don't you give real specific steps, no waffling or word salading... :=

racedo
18th Oct 2018, 16:04
".....Diplomatic premises are inviolable and may not be entered without the consent of the Ambassador or Head of Mission. The definition of diplomatic premises is buildings or part of buildings and the land ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for the purposes of the mission including the residence of the head of mission.

Similarly, consular premises are inviolable and may not be entered without the consent of the heard of the consular post or the head of the diplomatic mission. The definition of consular premises is buildings or parts of buildings and the land ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used exclusively for the purposes of the consular post.".....

US seems to believe the rules do not apply to them in the closing of Russian consulates plus entering them without consent and removing flags flown.

racedo
18th Oct 2018, 16:06
The unexpected release of the pastor speaks volumes... think he is trying to rebuild US relations... it's gonna be tough for Turkey to back down from their statements as even unsourced they are pretty unequivocal.

Believe unrelated and it was for mid terms.

Bearing in mind he being held for a long time until US made a fuss in June, he released just in time.

racedo
18th Oct 2018, 16:29
So for those of you who are saying MBS should go - how exactly?
Who's going to make him go?
His father - I don't think so.

He has threatened the US in relation to not buying arms, thinking he can turn off oil and screw US economy.
Idea that he is being promoted because of Trump is laughable, he was being promoted under Obama just as much.

He won the competing faction to be the next supreme leader above someone who has more contacts, more tentacles in Suadi society and
more powerful friends.

The shakedown on the other rich people was just a "I'm the boss here now" charade.
Enemies don't go away, they just regroup, form different alliances.

No doubt when the dust settles and everybody has seemingly forgotten, there will be a "realignment" such that someone else will be
the crown prince. Others will either settle into forced retirement living a life of luxury or an unfortunate medical diagnosis may occur.

Either way let time sort itself out.

Apparently one of the 15 tourists has already had a car crash.

Rule 1.............. Don't threaten Uncle Sam, especially not on the $$$$$.

Skyborne Flyer
18th Oct 2018, 17:27
One element of the recent consulate affair in Istanbul that seemed odd was the flight planning of the return flights of the two chartered jets back to Riyadh. HZ-SK1 and HZ-SK2 both put in stopovers in Cairo and Dubai respectively. Can anyone postulate a reason for these stops, especially with a possible precious cargo on board? It would appear to me a direct return would be the most sensible route, and range certainly was not an issue?

obgraham
18th Oct 2018, 18:15
Turbine:
What should we do in regards to Saudi? In my opinion we should follow your plan, because there is almost nothing there that I disagree with.

However, the US needs to think more strategically, and not get all in a wedgy because the Saudis decide to chop a head in their consulate rather than the public square. Here are a couple of factors:
The Saudis have subtley moved toward alliance with Israel in the Middle East matters.
The Saudis have become fed up with the never ending Palestinian issue, and have decided the Palestinians are the problem, not the solution.
The Saudis recognize that Iran is an unstable mess, with leadership that does not have the support of the Iranian people
The Saudi leadership, constrained till now to being fossil sons of the founder, has bought its leadership role by paying cash and cementing its authority among the minority upper class. Now that they have run out of old guys, they'll have to move to younger ones, and that is unpredictable. We cannot change that.

That said, I think if we followed Turbine's suggestions that would be a good start. Except I see no reason to abandon a big arms sale to them -- they'll simply buy Russian, Chinese, or French instead, and that is reality.

Primarily, I think we should back away from telling middle eastern medievalists how to run their affairs, and concentrate on preventing them from messing up our affairs. That would be the Trump agenda, painful though it might be to antiTrumpists.

ethicalconundrum
18th Oct 2018, 18:27
Our position should be the exact opposite of Trump's current position. Saudi Arabia isn't a staunch ally of the United States in the Middle East. Matter of fact we have only one staunch Middle East ally, Israel.

Wow, I've never seen anyone so wrong before and so publicly. SA is the MECCA(google it) of all things in the ME. They are not only a strategic economic ally but also a military, and friendly(mostly) muslim nation. For the US to do any of the stupid shit in your bullet list would leave a massive strategic vacuum in the region and I will tell you straight up that China, or Russia would be ecstatic to see this kind of rift between SA and the US. SA has been the center of the ME and muslim universe for hundreds of years. As backward and obstinate as they are, at least they are willing to maintain cordial and friendly relations with the US after we have done some pretty bad things to the rest of the muslim nations.

We certainly need to maintain our relationship there. If we left SA high and dry the Chinese would be in the royal palace before the last Trump picture was in a box. Weapons, materiel, logistics, supply chain, oil, refining, all depend on the US and take that away, China would be drooling to suck up to the new crown prince. They don't care if he's a murder for hire hotshot.

There is a way to respond to this, and it does not include punishing them as a state. I'll wait to hear what happens diplomatically, but aside from condemning their brazen actions, I'm not going to take my ball and go home. The game will go on, it will just go on without us. Very bad strategic mojo. Your hatred of all things Trump is blinding you to any kind of intl gamesmanship.

Toadstool
18th Oct 2018, 18:49
Wow, I've never seen anyone so wrong before and so publicly. SA is the MECCA(google it) of all things in the ME. They are not only a strategic economic ally but also a military, and friendly(mostly) muslim nation. For the US to do any of the stupid shit in your bullet list would leave a massive strategic vacuum in the region and I will tell you straight up that China, or Russia would be ecstatic to see this kind of rift between SA and the US. SA has been the center of the ME and muslim universe for hundreds of years. As backward and obstinate as they are, at least they are willing to maintain cordial and friendly relations with the US after we have done some pretty bad things to the rest of the muslim nations.

We certainly need to maintain our relationship there. If we left SA high and dry the Chinese would be in the royal palace before the last Trump picture was in a box. Weapons, materiel, logistics, supply chain, oil, refining, all depend on the US and take that away, China would be drooling to suck up to the new crown prince. They don't care if he's a murder for hire hotshot.

There is a way to respond to this, and it does not include punishing them as a state. I'll wait to hear what happens diplomatically, but aside from condemning their brazen actions, I'm not going to take my ball and go home. The game will go on, it will just go on without us. Very bad strategic mojo. Your hatred of all things Trump is blinding you to any kind of intl gamesmanship.

How do you feel about the nationality of the majority of the 911 attackers? Its good you are so forgiving.

DaveReidUK
18th Oct 2018, 18:56
One element of the recent consulate affair in Istanbul that seemed odd was the flight planning of the return flights of the two chartered jets back to Riyadh. HZ-SK1 and HZ-SK2 both put in stopovers in Cairo and Dubai respectively. Can anyone postulate a reason for these stops, especially with a possible precious cargo on board? It would appear to me a direct return would be the most sensible route, and range certainly was not an issue?

Obfuscation ?

WingNut60
18th Oct 2018, 19:10
........They don't care if he's a murder for hire hotshot.........

As compared to ..............oh yeah, US!
And that was an inclusive "us", not "the U.S."

Bullet from behind for embezzlement on a grand scale. Shame on you China. Flagrant human rights abuse.
Public beheading and (occasionally) amputations. Deathly silence.

But then, the draconian punishments are not limited to SA alone.
You can take your pick of the medieval caliphates and find the same or worse.

A_Van
18th Oct 2018, 19:18
The idea (mentioned here by some gents) of not escalating this bloody event up to world-shaking economical and political decisions seems quite reasonable.

But while implementing this strategy or tactics it would be nice to stop playing a double standard game masking it by "human rights" hysteria.Currently things are developing according to an expression of one South American dictator who once said: "For my friends everything, for my enemies the law".

I can imagine what shout would arise if a Russian opposition speaker/writer (like e.g. Khodorkovsky or Navalny) would be cut into pieces alive somewhere at a Russian embassy having a crowd of 15 (publicly known) FSB/GRU/SVR/etc thugs openly arriving to the site in advance to "meet" him.

RatherBeFlying
18th Oct 2018, 19:30
Matter of fact we have only one staunch Middle East ally, Israel.

Israel is by far the largest recipient of US foreign aid - some $3 billion a year going waaaay back. The US got recruited as Israel's attack dog on Saddam by PNAC and AIPAC. Now Trump and Pompeo are chomping at the bit to repeat the Iraq/Syria catastrophe in Iran. Bibi's pulling the puppet strings.

Let's not forget that the US Congress is effectively a wholly owned subsidiary of Likud International.

With allies like that, who needs enemies:uhoh:

Dronings will continue until the populace comes to adore the US:}

Chronus
18th Oct 2018, 20:00
This poor chap`s ambition was to get all Western press reporting translated and released in Arabic. That would have been against the daily diet strictly imposed on the people of his country and may have led to a flood of aeosol paint spray cans imported from China, causing economic chaos in the land and a call for US military assistance to flatten all buildings affected by anti establishment graffitti and slogans.
Here is an old report by Pete and Dud on how the Russians used to deal with their dissidents in the good old days of the USSR.
Seems a more civilised way to deal with dissents, with their vitals still attached ...

CLIVE:
I'll tell you one thing I can't stand .....
DEREK:
Tell me.
CLIVE:
..... about Russia, is the dead bodies in your hotel room.
DEREK:
Oh, blimey, yeah.
CLIVE:
'cause I booked into a second class hotel, you know, second class hotel, .....
DEREK:
Mmm.
CLIVE:
..... two stars, and, er, I asked, er, room service, erm, tch, you know, for a light meal 'cause I was going sight-seeing the next morning.
DEREK:
Mmmm.
CLIVE:
And I said, "I'd like some chips and a-, you know, a steak medium-rare and a banana fritter", you know.
DEREK:
Mmm.
CLIVE:
And, er, this bloke come up to the room and, frankly, it wasn't what I ordered. He brought up, er, three thousand dissidents .....
DEREK:
Oh, w-, blimey.
CLIVE:
..... with their testicles attached to electrodes.
DEREK:
Tss!
CLIVE:
And I said, "Call this ******* room service? 's not room service," I said, "I asked for chips, steak .....
DEREK:
Yeah.
CLIVE:
..... and banana fritters .....
DEREK:
Right.
CLIVE:
..... I get three thousand ******* dissidents on a tray."
DEREK:
Yeah, *****. What are they trying to pull, eh?
CLIVE:
Well, I-
DEREK:
They think we're *****!
CLIVE:
I said, "If you're expecting a tip, mate, if you're expecting a tip .....
DEREK:
Go to ******* .....
CLIVE:
..... you can get the **** out of my hotel room."
DEREK:
Yeah, yeah.
CLIVE:
Anyway, they just dumped 'em down on the-, on the-, .....
DEREK:
W-
CLIVE:
..... on the floor.
DEREK:
Yeah.
CLIVE:
All these dissid-, I got talking to them, some nice blokes, actually.
DEREK:
Yeah?
CLIVE:
Err, Sergei ..... er ..... Walankov. Sergei Walankov.
DEREK:
Ohhh, Wankoff, yes.
CLIVE:
Walankov. He wrote some poetry, he wrote, erm, a poem saying, er:The Soviet Union is a khasi Mister Brezhnev is a ****
And, er, I want my freedom you see .....
DEREK:
Ye-ah.
CLIVE:
And he published that in a dissident newspaper.
DEREK:
I'd rather be room service than in prison.
CLIVE:
But I'll say one thing for Russia. The-, the health service is tremendous.
DEREK:
Oh, yeah.
CLIVE:
As soon as you're ill they kill you.
DEREK:
Yeah?
CLIVE:
Yeah. Oh, there's no ******* about with cures.
DEREK:
Hu-heah, well they've got the right idea, haven't they?

ethicalconundrum
18th Oct 2018, 20:39
How do you feel about the nationality of the majority of the 911 attackers? Its good you are so forgiving.

Not remotely forgiving. The majority of the 9-11 terrorist were SA and none were state sponsored, even though they most were SA nationals. Hence the name 'terrorist'. There were individuals from I think 4 different nations. They were trained in Iran, and also in FL US. Are we to condemn the whole country for a band of terrorists? I guess I was as ready as anyone to find and punish a state, and not just SA. But the reality was, there was no state involvement, except for those nations who came out in support of the attacks after the fact. namely - Iran. As far as the leader, bin Laden, he was in hiding until the US forces found and killed him. Yes, he was a SA citizen, but aside from his wealth, he had no connection to any of the govt of SA, unless you can show otherwise.

And what would you have done after 9-11 to the state of SA? Bomb them into the stone age? Big deal, all that leaves is the same vacuum. Now, back to the current mess. I don't have all the solutions, but drawing out of SA because they killed one of their citizens isn't a good plan in the major landscape of the regional politic.

racedo
18th Oct 2018, 20:48
Not remotely forgiving. The majority of the 9-11 terrorist were SA and none were state sponsored, even though they most were SA nationals..

Strange that the meetings and financial support of Saudi diplomats and hijackers gets overlooked.

But hey lets blame Iran as it is an easy target.

Strange that US / Israel intelligence knows who comes and goes into Iran and they magically missed all of these.............

structor
18th Oct 2018, 21:00
I have been thinking about the claims that there is audio/video evidence of the alleged butchery of this poor bu&&er. 7 minutes to kill and dismember? That could not be done by the most expert pathologist even if he had smuggled in a bone saw. Think about it. How long does it take you to carve the Christmas turkey? Seven minutes would require the use of a chainsaw and that would be fast. The fallout from that would be all over the room. I don't think that it could be cleaned up within 24 hrs. Did they erect a containment tent? Did they take it with them when they left? Did they take the body parts in nice Louis Vuitton suitcases when they checked out through the airport? Probably not. Best guess is that they took the body/parts from the Embassy to the consul's house and dug the evidence into the garden then bu&&ered off.

Turbine D
18th Oct 2018, 21:32
Ethical,
Wow, I've never seen anyone so wrong before and so publicly. SA is the MECCA(google it) of all things in the ME. They are not only a strategic economic ally but also a military, and friendly(mostly) muslim nation.
This has to be one of the most gullible posts i've ever read on the Middle East. How did you get sucked into thinking the Saudis are the center of the Muslim universe, is it because Mecca is located there? Have you ever done actual business in the Middle East? If you have, you would know what you wrote is nothing more than Saudi propaganda.

The Saudis want to hang on to the US for protection from Iran and hope we will fight the war should there be one, that's all. 85-90% of world Muslims are Sunni which predominantly is the Muslim sect in Saudi Arabia. The Iranian population is 95% Shia. The two sects have fought going back in time to when they vehemently disagreed as to who should replace Mohammad the prophet of Islam. Now days one sect prefers using explosives, car or truck bombs or alike to kill, the other by capturing, shooting and beheading. You can decide which sect prefers what. The point is, we shouldn't be in this Middle East free for all, period. It's none of our business. Besides, you never want to get sucked into a war with Iran on their turf. The geography of Iran is one of the best natural fortresses ever. Saddam gave it a big go, how did that work out?

meadowrun
18th Oct 2018, 22:41
Saddam gave it a big go, how did that work out?

As well as it did for Iran.

Eight years of mutual combat and bupkis other than graves.......for the lucky.

Turbine D
18th Oct 2018, 22:51
Ethical,
The majority of the 9-11 terrorist were SA and none were state sponsored, even though they most were SA nationals.
Your assertion is not exactly correct. Two former U.S. senators, co-chairmen of the Congressional Inquiry into the attacks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Inquiry_into_Intelligence_Community_Activities_before_ and_after_the_Terrorist_Attacks_of_September_11,_2001), told CBS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CBS) in April 2016 that the redacted pages of the Congressional Inquiry′s report (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Inquiry_into_Intelligence_Community_Activities_before_ and_after_the_Terrorist_Attacks_of_September_11,_2001#The_re port) refer to evidence of Saudi Arabia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saudi_Arabia)'s substantial involvement in the execution of the attacks. Florida Democratic Senator Bob Graham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Graham), who chaired the United States Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Select_Committee_on_Intelligence) at the time the report said in his sworn statements that "there was evidence of support from the Saudi government for the terrorists." There wasn't evidence the support involved the Ruling Royal Family the way the report was written. The US government has actively collaborated with the Saudis in suppressing the revelation of evidence of the Saudi government's responsibility for the attacks, denying FOIA requests and supplying inside information to the lawyers representing the Saudis involved. Graham characterized the strategy as not a 'cover up' but "aggressive deception".

In 2017, the Saudi government was accused of performing a "dry run" by paying two Saudi nationals, al-Qudhaeein and Hamdan al-Shalawi, "living undercover in the US as students, to fly from P (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix,_Arizona)hoenix to W (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington,_D.C.)ashington," two years before the attacks. Based on the FBI documents, Qudhaeein and Shalawi were in fact members of "the Kingdom's network of agents" in the United States. In November 1999, they boarded an America West flight to Washington, reportedly paid for by the Saudi Embassy. During the flights they tried to access the cockpit several times, in order to "test out flight deck security before 9/11." The pilots made an emergency landing in Ohio since they were "so spooked by the Saudi passengers and their aggressive behavior." Of course the Saudis denied all.

More recently in August, the Saudi Government appeared to threaten Canada with 9-11 style attack if Canada continued to push Saudi human right violations, where mainly female activists were sent to jail. Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, heir to the Saudi throne, has become the ultimate decision-maker for the kingdom's military, foreign, economic and social policies, championing his Vision 2030 (https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/countingthecost/2017/11/oil-saudi-arabia-2030-economic-vision-171104083501148.html) plan that includes subsidy cuts, tax increases, state-asset sales, a government efficiency drive, and efforts to spur foreign investment. The 32-year-old has been well-received by the administration of US President Donald Trump. But, the crown prince's actions have caused some resentment in Saudi Arabia and the wider Middle East over high unemployment, the ongoing war in Yemen, the illegal blockade of Qatar, and fears Riyadh is looking to normalize diplomatic relations with Israel.

tartare
18th Oct 2018, 23:24
I have been thinking about the claims that there is audio/video evidence of the alleged butchery of this poor bu&&er. 7 minutes to kill and dismember? That could not be done by the most expert pathologist even if he had smuggled in a bone saw. Think about it. How long does it take you to carve the Christmas turkey? Seven minutes would require the use of a chainsaw and that would be fast. The fallout from that would be all over the room. I don't think that it could be cleaned up within 24 hrs. Did they erect a containment tent? Did they take it with them when they left? Did they take the body parts in nice Louis Vuitton suitcases when they checked out through the airport? Probably not. Best guess is that they took the body/parts from the Embassy to the consul's house and dug the evidence into the garden then bu&&ered off.

Au contraire.
With apologies for the following grisly detail - I think many people have assumed the reference to bonesaws means the surgical equivalent of a hacksaw.
A powered orthopaedic bone saw is reasonably compact - they look like drills - and would make short work of removing limbs... if that's what the Saudi forensic pathologist used.
Fingers - bolt cutters - as used by many mobsters.
Decapitation - cut from the back of the neck rather than the front - again - quite quick.
Unspeakably brutal and medieval - but then what more can you expect from a nation that publicly beheads people.
Big plastic sheet on the floor... and these muppets likely assumed that a quick scrub with oxygenated bleach and a few coast of paint would defeat luminol.
Does anyone know if the consul's office has windows facing the street, or is it an internal room?
If facing the street - then I wonder if the Turks have a laser mic set up somewhere nearby to ping the windows...

meadowrun
18th Oct 2018, 23:26
More recently in August, the Saudi Government appeared to threaten Canada with 9-11 style attack if Canada continued to push Saudi human right violations,

Sources please.

fitliker
18th Oct 2018, 23:39
Any other missing reporters yet ?
Highly unlikely a kill squad is a one off event.
How many other voices have gone mysteriously quiet ?

racedo
18th Oct 2018, 23:58
Sources please.

Saudi Arabia appeared to threaten Canada with a 9/11-style attack - Business Insider (http://uk.businessinsider.com/saudi-arabia-appeared-to-threaten-canada-with-a-911-style-attack-2018-8?r=US&IR=T)

Widely reported at the time.

RatherBeFlying
19th Oct 2018, 00:32
Does anyone know if the consul's office has windows facing the street, or is it an internal room? If facing the street - then I wonder if the Turks have a [email protected] mic set up somewhere nearby to ping the windows...Consuls usually have a corner office and nice views. The Turkish intelligence folks likely have access to any number of office suites, rooftops and cellular towers overlooking the consulate.

History note: In the time after Abdul Azziz' reconquest of Riyadh in 1902, the Ottoman Empire ruled large parts of the Red Sea and Gulf coasts. Abdul Azziz' father became foreign secretary of this then motley tribe. A major responsibility was dealing with the Turks. We should keep in mind that there had been a nasty war a hundred years before - and that there had been considerable friction between the desert tribes and the Ottoman ruled coastal provinces for centuries. The Turks were invited to (re)establish a garrison at a forlorn outpost. Subsequently supplies were intercepted and the garrison was starved out / exterminated (the details have fallen out of my memory). Before WWI, the Saudis had taken over a Turkish province on the Gulf that later became the foundation of their oil wealth. All of which is to say that there's a centuries' long background of conflict between the Turks and uncouth desert tribes.

Pompeo, Trump and MbS are currently making a big push for Iran regime change with Bibi pulling the strings. Certain Turkish nationals (some close to Erdogan ) have found themselves hauled before US courts for circumventing US sanctions against Iran.

Erdogan seems to be rubbing Saudi and US noses in the current mess. If they don't make it really worth while to "lose" the tapes, Al Jazeera will be only too happy to receive them:p

tartare
19th Oct 2018, 00:55
[QUOTE=. If they don't make it really worth while to "lose" the tapes, Al Jazeera will be only too happy to receive them:p[/QUOTE]

Yep... that's what I'm waiting for.
Thirty seconds or so of chilling audio - broadcast on Al Jaz.
The rest will be too terrible to air, but will no doubt find it's way to the darker corners of the Internet.

This now being reported by the BBC:

Separately on Thursday, a senior Turkish official told ABC News that US Foreign Secretary Mike Pompeo had listened to an audio recording of the alleged journalist's killing.

lomapaseo
19th Oct 2018, 01:32
Separately on Thursday, a senior Turkish official told ABC News that US Foreign Secretary Mike Pompeo had listened to an audio recording of the alleged journalist's killing.

Probably couldn't tell the difference from a tape of one of those house of horrors kiddie shows here in the US for Halloween

meadowrun
19th Oct 2018, 01:54
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x278/saudi_arabia_canada_tweet_png_1ecdf686984b647c05e4fe66d0ef09 063837ad73.jpg

I never heard of this little piece of adolescent foolishness at the time.
I think the sand people have a comeuppance due.

Toadstool
19th Oct 2018, 06:19
. But the reality was, there was no state involvement, except for those nations who came out in support of the attacks after the fact. namely - Iran.

Did you even read the Commission report or hear about GWB's statement regarding Iran? Did you hear or read about the statements by Khatami and Khomeini. Iran did not come out in support of the attacks, but condemned them and were one of the first nations to do so.

sitigeltfel
19th Oct 2018, 06:25
There's a burning question, perplexing the various news outlets, that needs to be answered.

Should they pronounce his name as in, Dodgy, Foggy or Bogey ?

meadowrun
19th Oct 2018, 06:46
They've been massacring his name for two weeks now.
Let them continue.
It's the only funny bit.

ramble on
19th Oct 2018, 14:11
One of the group of 15 'alleged' assassins has been killed in a car crash in Saudi Arabia.......how convenient...

jolihokistix
19th Oct 2018, 14:24
We remember Thomas Becket and those four knights in Canterbury Cathedral, but who particularly remembers Henry II?

ethicalconundrum
19th Oct 2018, 15:11
Well, seems HuffPo and Putin confirm it. Russia is just salivating for the US to leave a vacuum in SA by following the scorched earth policy advocated by some here. I'm sure China is just as excited to see the US pull out so they can move right on in. Just that China is more circumspect in their approach.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/putin-fall-of-us-hegemony-mistakes_us_5bc91ac9e4b0a8f17eeaabce

Stop deflecting. Pay attention to the big picture. Sad that this guy got killed, and likely SA had something to do with it, but it's not the end of the known universe. We have bigger issues with the dogs on our tail. And once again, as far as ME strategic importance goes, SA is far more important than Iran, UAE, and all the other players. We leave them hanging and they will be a puppet of China or Russia in a new york minute.

Planemike
19th Oct 2018, 16:13
Just amazed.......... You seem to feel it is acceptable for a journalist to be butchered in cold blood by
a group of hired assassins for that is what appears to have happened. Speaking personally I am appalled.

VP959
19th Oct 2018, 16:34
It is appalling, but is it any more appalling than beheading people, cutting off hands or stoning women to death?

In the context of the behaviour of Saudi Arabia towards its citizens killing a journalist isn't a big deal. If they had killed him before he chose to exile himself from SA, then I doubt that his death would have raised an eyebrow. Much as we might wish that countries in the ME didn't commit human rights violations (by Western standards) the hard fact is that we all do business with them, despite knowing the atrocities they commit. To single out the murder of one journalist as being somehow more significant than a woman being stoned to death for claimed adultery seems a bit hypocritical.

Turbine D
19th Oct 2018, 16:55
ethical,
Stop deflecting. Pay attention to the big picture. Sad that this guy got killed, and likely SA had something to do with it, but it's not the end of the known universe. We have bigger issues with the dogs on our tail. And once again, as far as ME strategic importance goes, SA is far more important than Iran, UAE, and all the other players. We leave them hanging and they will be a puppet of China or Russia in a new york minute.
No need to fret over this incident, the smiley photo of Pompeo sitting with the ruling Saudi prince says all is well in the Kingdom. The Trumpster has moved on, back to congratulating a US Congressional Representative for physically body slamming a news reporter, "My kind of guy," the Trumpster said.

But your last sentence brings back remembrance of an older but similar theory, The Domino Theory. It eventually became the foundation for the US being mired in the Vietnam War for years and the tremendous losses of life on both sides that occurred.

In a way, Putin may be correct with all the Trumster created division and disarray in DC. Russia had a taste of becoming involved too deeply in the Muslim world, Afghanistan. I don't think Putin wants an instant replay. And China, they are getting acclimated with the Muslim world in the Congo. The Muslim Congo welcoming committee wasn't so friendly to the Chinese folks stationed there.

KelvinD
19th Oct 2018, 18:26
So, a traitor to his own country (and maybe even to his host too) doesn't get killed but the West imposes all manner of sanctions and gallons of vitriol against his home government. But the home government involved is Russian.
A journalist is apparently killed and disposed of, yet his home government gets a few wagged fingers and a bit of serious tut tutting. And that government is not Russian.
So, should Mr. Putin rename his country Putin Arabia or something along those lines and bring to an end all the financial strictures, opprobrium etc?

KelvinD
19th Oct 2018, 18:30
Turbine D: Your mention of the Domino Theory takes me back some years. As a young soldier in the British Army in the 1960s, I was, let's say 'trained or educated', in this theory. We weren't exactly brainwashed but we were told more than once how if "The Communists" were to take over North Vietnam, Korea would be next, followed quickly by Malaya and on and on like a virulent rash until the entire SEATO area was subsumed. Worked out well for someone, didn't it?!

Andy_S
19th Oct 2018, 18:33
So, a traitor to his own country (and maybe even to his host too) doesn't get killed but the West imposes all manner of sanctions and gallons of vitriol against his home government.

But it wasn't his government any longer, was it?

fitliker
19th Oct 2018, 18:45
A Turkish reporter Ahmet Hakan says that he is probably alive and in Turkey .

VP959
19th Oct 2018, 19:04
So, a traitor to his own country (and maybe even to his host too) doesn't get killed but the West imposes all manner of sanctions and gallons of vitriol against his home government. But the home government involved is Russian.
A journalist is apparently killed and disposed of, yet his home government gets a few wagged fingers and a bit of serious tut tutting. And that government is not Russian.
So, should Mr. Putin rename his country Putin Arabia or something along those lines and bring to an end all the financial strictures, opprobrium etc?

Best add some facts:

Kamal Kashoggi was a Saudi Arabian national, working for a US newspaper, and expressing views that were not acceptable to his own government. His government, playing by their rules, on their sovereign territory, chose to deal with him, it seems. That's no different to them choosing to deal with any other dissident amongst their midst, and worth remembering that they beheaded 43 people, and shot a further 4 people, a couple of years ago for being dissidents (they called them "terrorists", but worth checking the Saudi definition of "terrorist", it doesn't match ours).

Sergei Skripal was a British national, attacked on British soil, by Russian attackers, using banned chemical weapons. His attackers were almost certainly working directly for the Russian government.

There is a stark contrast here. One could argue that a state has the right to apply its own laws and standards of behaviour on its own citizens whilst they are on its sovereign territory, as a semi-justification for the killing of Kamal Kashoggi. One could not, by any stretch of the imagination, apply any such justification for a state that chooses to use indiscriminate, banned, chemical weapons to attempt to murder a citizen of another state, on the territory of that other state.

Kerosene Kraut
19th Oct 2018, 20:24
A consulate is certainly not a sovereign territory.

WingNut60
19th Oct 2018, 22:02
...........Sergei Skripal was a British national, attacked on British soil, by Russian attackers, using banned chemical weapons. His attackers were almost certainly working directly for the Russian government.............
.

Clarification please. Are you sure that SS has revoked his Russian citizenship to the satisfaction of the Russian government?
If not, then he may still be a Russian citizen also.

racedo
19th Oct 2018, 22:36
Not remotely forgiving. The majority of the 9-11 terrorist were SA and none were state sponsored, even though they most were SA nationals. Hence the name 'terrorist'. There were individuals from I think 4 different nations. They were trained in Iran, and also in FL US. Are we to condemn the whole country for a band of terrorists? I guess I was as ready as anyone to find and punish a state, and not just SA. But the reality was, there was no state involvement, except for those nations who came out in support of the attacks after the fact. namely - Iran. As far as the leader, bin Laden, he was in hiding until the US forces found and killed him. Yes, he was a SA citizen, but aside from his wealth, he had no connection to any of the govt of SA, unless you can show otherwise.

And what would you have done after 9-11 to the state of SA? Bomb them into the stone age? Big deal, all that leaves is the same vacuum. Now, back to the current mess. I don't have all the solutions, but drawing out of SA because they killed one of their citizens isn't a good plan in the major landscape of the regional politic.

https://wikileaks.org/saudi-cables/doc119025.html

Interesting read on Saudi support for 9/11 terrorists.

KelvinD
19th Oct 2018, 22:42
But it wasn't his government any longer, was it?
Then why was he attending that consulate in order to have some paperwork approved? Of course he was a Saudi national.
As for Skripal, I would say he was whatever he wanted to be as and when it suited him.

2unlimited
19th Oct 2018, 23:09
The outrage of one person takes the level of hypocrisy of certain countries to another level.
US, UK and Norway, are few making millions on selling Saudi weapons and military training. Which is being used to kill thousands of innocent people in Yemen.
Add the fact that the regime itself, is the closest we have to the real ISIS with regards to religion, ideology and politics.
Yet we have the politicians and business people running like little sheep, to do their best to please the Saudis, who rule with an iron fist in their own country.

And we now get outraged because ONE MAN gets killed in the most primitive way, yet the story of Saudi is much worse than this one man. This is a country still living in the stone ages.
Our politicians will do NOTHING, as they have long time ago lost all principles of what is wrong and right in the world, and if wrong committed by a "friend" - they will do NOTHING.

It's good we can still scream of fear of Putin and Russia, I am disgusted to see the level of hypocrisy and lack of integrity that our world leaders have.
No doubt virtue and rightfulness is dead among our leaders, why should we respect their corrupt and traitorous leadership.

Money , Oil seems will always trump the truth and what is right. I am ashamed to see this travesty by our leaders of the "Unfree World"

RatherBeFlying
19th Oct 2018, 23:47
The Turkish authorities have widened their search to a nearby forest and other locations, which indicates that no remains were turned up at the consulate or consul's residence.

Reports indicate the baggage of the 15 "tourists" were checked on departure, but how thoroughly? Mind you, each member of the team would be burdened with 15-20# of remains to smuggle them out on the flights.

Vehicles departed the consulate at 3pm. Six Saudis departed at 7pm and seven more departed at 11pm. Two others left on commercial flights. So that does leave time to bury remains in a quiet location.

Would high placed Saudis get their hands dirty with shovels, or hire equipment? The Turkish authorities may be canvassing equipment operators as we speak.

Latest news is that the Saudis have made 18 arrests. Off to the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton with them!

cargosales
20th Oct 2018, 00:56
Oops ..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45923217

As if anyone believed them in the first place..

Perhaps Donald T Rump could quit as their PR adviser and suggest they get a good lawyer instead?

I can just see the Saudi 'detailed investigation' now ..

"You idiot, HOW did you get found out?"

err, thats it...

fitliker
20th Oct 2018, 02:22
No videos yet ?

Turbine D
20th Oct 2018, 02:28
KevinD,

The Domino Theory was quite controversial at the time of Far Eastern spread of Communism during the US intervention in Vietnam and shortly thereafter. One side supporting the theory was valid by the spread of Communism to Laos and Cambodia and the takeover of Vietnam in 1975. But the reason the Communist takeover in the rest of the countries in the area didn't happen may have been the result of effects of both the Korean and Vietnam Wars. However, it was the inability to recognize the driving force of the Viet Cong was more nationalist rather than Communistic. The ultimate goal of Ho Chi Minh was to become independent, not spreading Communism throughout South East Asia. That was illustrated by the Vietnamese invading Cambodia and overthrowing the Khmer Rouge in 1978-1979.

Today, the Domino Theory as applied to the Muslim Middle East, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and others including Pakistan is dependent on our understanding and recognizing all the forces at play. I don't think we understand or recognize either. So I reject the idea that Ethical presents of the big picture in the Middle East. The real divide in the Middle East beneath the day to day political surface is the Muslim religious division that isn't on our analysis table. It should be, as it goes back thousands of years...

WingNut60
20th Oct 2018, 03:03
Can't remember whether it was Ho or Nguyen Co Thach who said, "Anyone who thought that Vietnam was going to allow a Chinese takeover had never read any Vietnamese history", or words to that effect.

Never-the-less, the flow of extremist communism through S-E Asia at that time was very real and the Domino Theory was not without its merits, as theory goes.
But it is also worth considering WHY that threat existed, and it was not all about Russian or Chinese hegemony.

rusty sparrow
20th Oct 2018, 06:28
Business over morals. This may not be too far fetched . We would have sold you bone saws if we knew you needed them, Britain tells Saudi government (http://newsthump.com/2018/10/18/we-would-have-sold-you-bone-saws-if-we-knew-you-needed-them-britain-tells-saudi-government/)

KelvinD
20th Oct 2018, 07:02
And now the Saudis say Kashoggi "died during a fight" in the consulate. So that's OK then.

SMT Member
20th Oct 2018, 07:32
And 45 has immediately said the Saudi explanation is 'credible', that Saudi arms purchases is not under threat, and is apparently doing what he can to make the story go away as quickly as possible.

Nice to have friends in your pocket when you need them. We all knew Putin has him by the short and curls, here's the proof there's another player tugging him in the right places too.

Simplythebeast
20th Oct 2018, 07:35
Goes to Consulate to arrange paperwork for forthcoming marriage, dies in mass fist fight, body not found.
yes.....very plausable......said noone ever except Doanld Trump.

DaveReidUK
20th Oct 2018, 07:56
The BBC World Service are suggesting, possibly tongue in cheek, that the next step in the Saudi saga of disingenuousness will be to hint that Henry II - sorry, MBS - was overheard saying "will no one rid me of this turbulent journalist" and was misinterpreted by his aides. :O

A_Van
20th Oct 2018, 09:29
IMHO they (the Saudis) even would not bother mentioning of the crown prince. As they are saying now it was a "fight" during which he "accidentaly died". Hmm, a 59 y.o. pen worker initiated fighting with 15 professional thugs....
Then they will find some bodyguard who "just over-reacted" hitting that unfortunate too hard and assure that he was punished adequately in SA. This will be unverifyable, but accepted by the SA good friends

DaveReidUK
20th Oct 2018, 10:23
Then they will find some bodyguard who "just over-reacted" hitting that unfortunate too hard and assure that he was punished adequately in SA. This will be unverifyable, but accepted by the SA good friends

That will work.

Unless and until the audio recording is leaked.

cargosales
20th Oct 2018, 10:31
... As they are saying now it was a "fight" during which he "accidentaly died". Hmm, a 59 y.o. pen worker initiated fighting with 15 professional thugs....
Then they will find some bodyguard who "just over-reacted" hitting that unfortunate too hard and assure that he was punished adequately in SA. This will be unverifyable, but accepted by the SA good friends

Don't forget that said scapegoat bodyguard will have to explain how a 59 y.o. managed to hit all 15 of them so hard as to cause temporary amnesia such that they completely forgot to mention the incident to anyone .. How fortunate it was the kind of amnesia that wears off after you've left the country and they've now started inventing remembering things that happened.

VP959
20th Oct 2018, 10:34
That will work.

Unless and until the audio recording is leaked.

That seems key, and if I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that if there is a recording of what happened then the Saudis would most probably be prepared to pay a high price to stop it ever being made public. I doubt that the Turkish government would be so concerned about human rights as to ignore a big enough offer from Saudi Arabia, somehow, and it definitely wouldn't be in the interests of the US or UK to prolong the after effects of this act. The former Turkish ambassador to NATO was on the radio this morning saying that the Saudis had released information "too little and too late", but added that no information was likely to be released until the investigation had completed. That implies that Turkey may well be negotiating with SA on the QT. One snippet of information that he did release was that all the Turkish staff at the SA Consulate were sent home early, before Kamal Khashoggi arrived, which fits with the view that this was an arranged murder.

Andy_S
20th Oct 2018, 10:48
Then why was he attending that consulate in order to have some paperwork approved? Of course he was a Saudi national.

I was referring to Skripal, not Khashoggi.

DaveReidUK
20th Oct 2018, 10:53
One snippet of information that he did release was that all the Turkish staff at the SA Consulate were sent home early, before Kamal Khashoggi arrived, which fits with the view that this was an arranged murder.

Indeed so. See post #10.

BluSdUp
20th Oct 2018, 11:23
MBS, short for Master of Bull Shit.

I have to say it is time this little adolescent , out of control maniac is found out.
He has made Yemen into the biggest human disaster the last few years.
Claims he is making his country more civilized, when the opposite is true.
Making the region unstable as he manipulates Numnut in Washington.
If he survives politically, it is a sign to the world that anything goes.
Interesting times....

racedo
20th Oct 2018, 12:06
And 45 has immediately said the Saudi explanation is 'credible', that Saudi arms purchases is not under threat, and is apparently doing what he can to make the story go away as quickly as possible.

Nice to have friends in your pocket when you need them. We all knew Putin has him by the short and curls, here's the proof there's another player tugging him in the right places too.

US Administration does not for a second believe the Saudi's. They have lied for decades and everyone knows that.

However 200 billion in trade a year is 1 million US jobs.

To somehow think US President is going to dump all of this for one unknown journalist is nieve, bearing in mind that the slaughter in Yemen was agreed under Obama and known about as US/UK supply them with weapons and targeting.

jolihokistix
20th Oct 2018, 13:34
Good job = they kill him and no-one is ever the wiser. Poof! Vanishes into thin air. Everyone looks innocent.
Bad job = they kill him, the whole thing is a trap within a trap, (they trapped him, and someone else trapped them) and it unravels for the world to see.

Result = the team did a bad job of killing him, therefore they have been arrested or dismissed.

RatherBeFlying
20th Oct 2018, 14:32
Trump and Pompeo.

There seem to be some rogue senators talking up citing MbS under the Magnitsky Act that T&P are trying to head off:E

Some foes of the crown prince have hoped for a challenge for the throne from the king’s brother, Prince Ahmed bin Abdulaziz. Prince Ahmed, 73, is the youngest of seven sons of the late King Abdulaziz who all shared the same mother, Hussa bint Ahmed al-Sudairi. The Sudairi seven, as they were known, formed a powerful bloc within the family and passed the throne from brother to brother — a pattern that might have extended to Prince Ahmed if King Salman had not redirected the line of succession to his own son.
So critics of Prince Mohammed were electrified last month when Prince Ahmed addressed protesters on the street in London who were chanting against the royal family over the war in Yemen.

“What does this have to do with the Al Saud?” Prince Ahmed said, in comments caught on video. “Those responsible are the king and his crown prince.”

When asked about the war in Yemen, he replied, “I hope the situation ends, whether in Yemen or elsewhere, today before tomorrow.”

On the internet, critics of the crown prince posted oaths of loyalty to Prince Ahmed, but his turn as an opposition leader did not last long. He soon issued a statement saying his comment had been misinterpreted. He remains in London, afraid to return home

Uproar Over Dissident Rattles Saudi Royal Family (https://nyti.ms/2R2dH0a)

racedo
20th Oct 2018, 14:39
Trump and Pompeo.

There seems to be some rogue senators talking up citing MbS under the Magnitsky that T&P are trying to head off:E

1 Journo dead the world is up in arms

40 kids killed on a bus in Yemen and everybody shrugs.

BehindBlueEyes
20th Oct 2018, 14:57
2996 deaths on 9/11 at the hands of 15 Saudi Nationals (out of 19 hijackers on 9/11)

So, what does the leader of the free world do? He launches an attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. Can’t ask the Saudis any awkward questions about what their citizens may have been up to, can we?

Today’s leader of the free world warned, last week, of, “very severe consequences if Saudi Arabia was proved to have killed the journalist.”

This week, he praised the kingdom for acting quickly (two weeks to get their story accurate! ) and said the official explanation was "credible"

RatherBeFlying
20th Oct 2018, 15:03
1 Journo dead the world is up in arms40 kids killed on a bus in Yemen and everybody shrugs.The NYT article reports that MbS has been taken aback by the reaction. It says more about us that the fate of a single journo has more media impact than the bombing of a bus full of schoolchildren. But you can see that MbS thought he had a free pass to do whatever he wants.

In the meantime I suspect that US air refueling of Saudi bombing missions to Yemen continues as before. Will Iran be next?

fitliker
20th Oct 2018, 16:25
Black OPS rules
Rule 1 : Do not get caught
Rule 2: See Rule 1
Rule 3 : There is no rule three

racedo
20th Oct 2018, 17:09
The NYT article reports that MbS has been taken aback by the reaction. It says more about us that the fate of a single journo has more media impact than the bombing of a bus full of schoolchildren. But you can see that MbS thought he had a free pass to do whatever he wants.

In the meantime I suspect that US air refueling of Saudi bombing missions to Yemen continues as before. Will Iran be next?

I think MBS has found that even with the millions he bribes the West with that it is not enough.

His 15 minutes of being a total tit is almost up.

meadowrun
20th Oct 2018, 17:29
Don't think the tit is going without a whimper.
Too much face and power to lose.
He has proven he doesn't think much of some of his relatives and he currently does have some weight to throw around.
He might up the ante.
But knives might come from any quarter.

Turbine D
20th Oct 2018, 17:57
BehindBlueEyes,
So, what does the leader of the free world do? He launches an attack on Iraq and Afghanistan. Today’s leader of the free world warned, last week, of, “very severe consequences if Saudi Arabia was proved to have killed the journalist.” This week, he praised the kingdom for acting quickly (two weeks to get their story accurate! ) and said the official explanation was "credible"
Currently, we have a fair number of chameleons living & working in the White House, they change colors about things all the time, nature's defense...

I admired Harry S. Truman when he was President, he was very outspoken but honest. Here is what he said about Washington DC:
If you want a real friend that you can trust in Washington, get a dog.

Turbine D
20th Oct 2018, 18:08
meadowrun,
Don't think the tit is going without a whimper.
Too much face and power to lose.
He has proven he doesn't think much of some of his relatives and he currently does have some weight to throw around.
He might up the ante.
You may be correct, He could be the Kim Jong-un of the Middle East when family members start disappearing.

RatherBeFlying
20th Oct 2018, 18:34
MbS is a latter day Thami El Glaoui, who presented a Western ways friendly persona while ruling as an absolute despot. Once he became top dog in his extended family, he destituted his relations.

All described in Lords of the Atlas.

racedo
20th Oct 2018, 19:38
meadowrun,

You may be correct, He could be the Kim Jong-un of the Middle East when family members start disappearing.

Er the disappearing has been going on for ages.
Read the Wikileaks link which highlights that 3 Princes known for overt support of Taliban all died of various illnesses in short space of time.
Some had illnesses they never "realised" until their relatives were told they died of them.

MBS is not Kim and hasn't got the power base as people seem to think he has.

When he grabbed power IAF were reputedly in Saudi to ensure he didn't mysteriously die, reports of an attack on his home have also occurred.

He shook down a lot of people for a Billion $, he has also threatened US if they consider imposing sanctions plus cutting off trade............... draw own conclusions to that one.

ex_matelot
20th Oct 2018, 20:32
Were I a Saudi prince, and wanted to "off" someone...

I would find much cheaper and less conspicuous means of achieving so.

El Grifo
20th Oct 2018, 21:56
I will say one thing !
The Kashoggi Affair has sure as hell knocked The Skripal Caper well into the long grass has it not !!
El G.

Mac the Knife
20th Oct 2018, 22:24
"I would find much cheaper and less conspicuous means of achieving so."

Indeed. But there's nothing like a Khashoggi-style death/mutilation in
a foreign country to really put the frighteners on all the rest of 'em.
A really strong demo of power and untouchability. That was the point.

If I were a Saudi with even the remotest anti-MBS dream, I'd be shittin' me'self.
Bet DJT envies him - he LOVE to do the same to the lying Press and the Dems - still, give him time...

Mac

West Coast
20th Oct 2018, 23:27
Good of you however to note Trump when a Saudi national in Turkey gets whacked by his own country.

cargosales
21st Oct 2018, 01:32
Good of you however to note Trump when a Saudi national in Turkey gets whacked by his own country.


To be fair West Coast I think it is perfectly reasonable to include Donald T. Rump in this conversation, given that, fairly recently, he publicly endorsed the use of physical violence against journalists.. Body slamming someone who is asking you 'awkward questions' is ok is it? What about something more serious - like maiming them? Or even killing them?

Your argument is I'm afraid the thin end of the wedge. Where does it end??? Or does the size of one's arms deals with another country completely negate one's professed commitment to democracy? [The US is a democracy, with free speech and all of that kind of nonsense? Isn't it?]

CS

megan
21st Oct 2018, 01:43
The US is a democracy, right?Technically, no, it's a republic, there are subtle differences between the two.

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic

WingNut60
21st Oct 2018, 01:55
Most modern nations—including the United States—are democratic republics with a constitution, which can be amended by a popularly elected government.

Really? The government can amend your constitution?

I found the first quoted article so misleading that I didn't bother with the second.

cargosales
21st Oct 2018, 02:19
Technically, no, it's a republic, there are subtle differences between the two.

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Democracy_vs_Republic

Thank you. I have just learned something.. Every night's a School night on PPRuNe..

ramble on
21st Oct 2018, 02:51
Am I being a bit too cynical with the thought that maybe Erdogan needed a convenient distraction and dropped the Saudis in it as a 'flash bang' to distract from another story that was gathering some impetus a couple of weeks ago about his own dirty little henchmen in Europe?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7506181/turkish-police-patrol-berlin-germany/

megan
21st Oct 2018, 03:35
Really? The government can amend your constitution? Approximately 11,539 proposals to amend the Constitution have been introduced in Congress since 1789 (as of December 2014). Collectively, members of the House and Senate typically propose around 200 amendments during each two–year term of Congress. Most, however, never get out of the Congressional committees in which they were proposed, and only a fraction of those that do receive enough support to win Congressional approval to go through the constitutional ratification process. Beginning in the early 20th century, Congress has usually, but not always, stipulated that an amendment must be ratified by the required number of states within seven years from the date of its submission to the states in order to become part of the Constitution. 33 have been proposed by Congress, of which 27 have been ratified by the states.

So what is misleading? Congress not the government? :uhoh:

https://constitution.findlaw.com/amendments.html

innuendo
21st Oct 2018, 04:02
Really? The government can amend your constitution?

Who else would you suggest should be able to do that?

WingNut60
21st Oct 2018, 04:06
Who else would you suggest should be able to do that?

The electorate, by referendum

megan
21st Oct 2018, 04:18
The electorate, by referendum That is at the core of differences between a democracy and a republic.

WingNut60
21st Oct 2018, 04:37
So what is misleading? Congress not the government? :uhoh:



What is misleading is that it is written to infer that a Republic is a superior version of democracy.

eg
Constraints on the government
No; the majority can impose its will on the minority.
Yes; the majority cannot take away certain inalienable rights.

Famous Examples
Classical Greece, Rome
Rome, France, United States Of America

So, yes; the majority cannot take away certain inalienable rights, but the government can.
And under famous examples they have omitted others such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and other fine examples of modern democratic republics.

KelvinD
21st Oct 2018, 07:08
Andy S: Re your post #187; You were, of course, correct. I misread my own post in conjunction with yours, shot from the hip and I apologise for that!

DaveReidUK
21st Oct 2018, 07:47
The US is a democracy, right? Technically, no, it's a republic, there are subtle differences between the two.


_sOCtSnWtxY

Sorry, couldn't resist. :O

Kerosene Kraut
21st Oct 2018, 08:05
Democracy is greek, republic is latin.

ORAC
21st Oct 2018, 08:35
WingNut60 - “Tyrrany of the Majority” debate in the USA, as so well referenced by de Tocqueville - as you are doubtless aware - in The Federal Papers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

pattern_is_full
21st Oct 2018, 08:55
So, yes; the majority cannot take away certain inalienable rights, but the government can.

Not exactly. Because it is not a case of THE government taking away certain inalienable rights, but at least 34 independent governments. Any Amendment to the Constitution (regardless of whether it might "take away certain inalienable rights" or not) requires not only that it be passed by the U.S. Congress with a 67% super-majority, but also ratified by a super-majority of 67% of the individual State governments.

So while it is impossible for a simple majority of the "demos" to impose its will on a minority directly, it is almost impossible for the Government to impose its will on a minority. It requires a large concensus across multiple levels of government, and thus a large concensus across the electorate.

There is, of course, no "Truth in Advertising Law" when it comes to governments, so any government can call itself a Republic, whether it is or not. As you say: Congo, North Korea, or the biggy you left out (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.) ;) You have to look past the nameplate to determine whether they actually have "rules protecting the minority," and whether they actually play by those rules.

Is a Republic superior? Very complex, because it depends on how the Republic is set up. In the simplest terms, a Republic simply means government without a pre-defined "ruling class" - monarchs, lords, barons, dictators, etc. Power is primarily "of the people, by the people, for the people" - to quote the first U.S. Republican President. However, that power may be delegated to elected representatives by the people. A republic usually must have clear "rules of the game," of not only how power is delegated, but whether certain powers are allowed at all. Those rules may be as extensive as the US Bill of Rights - but need not be. A Republic is usually more "institutional" than direct democracy.

To the extent that the institutions of a Republic act as a brake on "the passions of the moment," through a Constitution, or requirements for supermajorities, it is often superior. To the extent that representative democracy is more efficient in handling multiple complex issues than direct democracy (which would tie up a lot of people's time) it is often superior. To the extent that the institutions of a Republic fail to respond to the will of the people in those issues which are not specifically restricted by the "rules of the game," it is often inferior.

Andy_S
21st Oct 2018, 11:14
Andy S: Re your post #187; You were, of course, correct. I misread my own post in conjunction with yours, shot from the hip and I apologise for that!

That's OK - easily done. :ok:

Nervous SLF
21st Oct 2018, 23:24
Speaking to U.S. broadcaster Fox, Jubeir, the Saudi foreign minister, extended condolences to Khashoggi's family.
"This is a terrible mistake. This is a terrible tragedy. Our condolences go out to them. We feel their pain,"he said.
"Unfortunately, a huge and grave mistake was made and I assure them that those responsible will
be held accountable for this."He said the Saudis did not know how Khashoggi, a Saudi national and U.S. resident,
had been killed or where
his body was. He also said that Prince Mohammed, defacto ruler of Saudi Arabia, was not responsible.
"This was an operation where individuals ended up exceeding the authorities and responsibilities they had.
They made the mistake when they killed Jamal Khashoggi in the consulate and they tried to cover up for it."

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/world/saudi-arabia-calls-khashoggi-killing-grave-mistake-says-prince-not-aware/ar-BBOGFI4?li=BBqdg4K

Sorry but to me I just don't believe the part I have "bolded". IF however it's true then it doesn't really matter
does it as that ruler is ultimately responsible.

ramble on
21st Oct 2018, 23:28
Just keeping this at the top. The screws shoild be kept nice and tight on this scum.

Washington Post CEO says it pretty well.......

https://mobile.twitter.com/WashPostPR/status/1053714883676581889/photo/1

WingNut60
22nd Oct 2018, 00:32
Not exactly. Because it is not a case of THE government taking away certain inalienable rights, but at least 34 independent governments. Any Amendment to the Constitution (regardless of whether it might "take away certain inalienable rights" or not) requires not only that it be passed by the U.S. Congress with a 67% super-majority, but also ratified by a super-majority of 67% of the individual State governments.

So while it is impossible for a simple majority of the "demos" to impose its will on a minority directly, it is almost impossible for the Government to impose its will on a minority. It requires a large concensus across multiple levels of government, and thus a large concensus across the electorate.

There is, of course, no "Truth in Advertising Law" when it comes to governments, so any government can call itself a Republic, whether it is or not. As you say: Congo, North Korea, or the biggy you left out (Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.) ;) You have to look past the nameplate to determine whether they actually have "rules protecting the minority," and whether they actually play by those rules.

Is a Republic superior? Very complex, because it depends on how the Republic is set up. In the simplest terms, a Republic simply means government without a pre-defined "ruling class" - monarchs, lords, barons, dictators, etc. Power is primarily "of the people, by the people, for the people" - to quote the first U.S. Republican President. However, that power may be delegated to elected representatives by the people. A republic usually must have clear "rules of the game," of not only how power is delegated, but whether certain powers are allowed at all. Those rules may be as extensive as the US Bill of Rights - but need not be. A Republic is usually more "institutional" than direct democracy.

To the extent that the institutions of a Republic act as a brake on "the passions of the moment," through a Constitution, or requirements for supermajorities, it is often superior. To the extent that representative democracy is more efficient in handling multiple complex issues than direct democracy (which would tie up a lot of people's time) it is often superior. To the extent that the institutions of a Republic fail to respond to the will of the people in those issues which are not specifically restricted by the "rules of the game," it is often inferior.

Thanks. Good comeback.
I do not have a barrow to push on this topic.
It just seemed that the quoted link (first one) was written by a fourth grader and reflected juvenile bias.

I guess that the value or superiority of either variant is in how it is applied. Neither really guaranteeing it's promise and both susceptible to corruption and abuse.

I do know that any constitution, law or contract is susceptible to being over-prescriptive; every prescription evokes an equal and opposite exclusion (Wingnuts 3rd Law of Civilisation).
Oz has a robust and workable constitution; a combination of English and American models.
It does not have a Bill of Rights, but (wait for the howling here) does not seem to suffer too much from that omission.

The DRC Bill of Rights (if it exists) does not seem to work very well at all
Closer to home, I could point to a few gaps in the application of Pancasila in the Republik Indonesia.

Uncle Fred
22nd Oct 2018, 01:51
I know that Erdogan is milking this for all it is worth and will tug it in every direction favourable to him and his government, but in this case I am rooting for the Turks to keep making Hades hot for both the Sauds and Trump's full throttled effort at public relations on behalf of the KSA.

Who knows if the additional information the Turks are teasing to release is real, but I hope it is and I hope they do. A little feet to the fire is good for all parties even if nothing changes--which it seems to be the case.

fitliker
22nd Oct 2018, 02:49
Journalists are so well treated in Turkey . Cue up the Georgio Moroder music from Midnight Express .The Turkish prison reform movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_6UVDqhxYo

RatherBeFlying
22nd Oct 2018, 03:45
It's a bit strange to see Erdogan switch tracks from jailing and getting journos fired to feeding leaks to tame journos.

Perhaps he sees an opportunity to discredit King Salman et fils. I suspect MbS has too much control over the security apparatus to be unseated, but there's a good chance he will end up persona non grata outside KSA and Sisi's Egypt.

All of this puts a spoke in the wheels of Bibi proxy Trump's plan to turn the screws on Iran.

Let's not forget that Turkey is a major trading partner of Iran and would much prefer putting a stop to Trump's reimposition of sanctions against Iran.

tartare
22nd Oct 2018, 05:55
Well, well.
New allegations being made in Turkish media (while those of you in the Northern Hemisphere are asleep) that MBS called Khassoggi on his phone while he was being held by his captors - suggesting Khashoggi return to Saudi.
Khashoggi refused - fearing for his life - and his fears turned out to be correct...
If true - staggering.
If it took place, that call will have been intercepted and recorded.
The Saudis would be wise to consider that before they try and deny it...
This thing's getting more like a third rate Hollywood gangster movie by the day.
Source here in Turkish: https://www.yenisafak.com/gundem/selman-ile-konustusonra-olduruldu-3403508

Erdogan now threatening to reveal everything they know within 48 hours:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/world/middleeast/erdogan-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/world/middleeast/erdogan-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepag e)

One would imagine that somewhere in the Kingdom tonight there is a very angry and frustrated young prince, and elsewhere perhaps some very dead members of the goon squad...

Uncle Fred
22nd Oct 2018, 08:03
It seems that Erdogan might be giving this histronic "48 hours" spiel to try to extract some serious coin from the Saudis. He needs the money since the currency has taken such a hit so who can blame him for leveraging what he has to get some tosh?

I am neutral about Israel, but Rather be Flying makes a point about Bibi (and the Saudis I mght add) havng a spanner in the works over his plans to have the Yanks be the hired hand in facing Iran. US leaders of all stripes for shoud earn stupid points for having been played so badly. I still do not understand the target fixation with Iran when they have bigger fish to fry. Walking, wide awake, into a morass--especially after they squandered so much treasure by deposing Saddam and setting the Iranians up in the cat bird seat for which I am sure they are quite grateful.

ORAC
22nd Oct 2018, 09:01
https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-khashoggi-affair/

“........Saudi Arabia has been the linchpin of America's Middle East strategy for close to a century. That relationship has not been without costs. What would the cost be if the alliance fractured? The Saudis would be imperiled in Yemen, potentially endangering the free flow of traffic in the Gulf of Aden. Iranian victory there would extend a Shia crescent in the south to accompany the one running through Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon.

Governments without democratic legitimacy are brittle and unpredictable—a fact highlighted not only by Khashoggi but also by recent Saudi actions against Canada and the crown prince's delayed IPO of oil giant Aramco. America has sustained and protected the Saudis for decades. Withdrawing such protection would open the regime to both domestic and international challenges. As President Trump put it recently (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2018/10/02/days-before-trade-deal-trump-said-canadas-foreign-minister-hates-america/?utm_term=.a3697e75b337), Saudi Arabia wouldn't last two weeks without American support. The Middle East and Levant already are filled with examples of state failure. Is America prepared to risk another?

A Saudi meltdown would deprive the United States of a counterterrorist ally, roil energy markets, create pockets of instability in which jihadists and Iranian-backed militias thrive, and cause headaches for Israel. To forestall such a disaster, the Saudis, like others before them, might turn to either Russia or China for support. That would accelerate the waning of American influence in the Middle East. It would boost the very autocracies we condemn.

Punish the Saudis if it turns out they acted no better than Russia, China, North Korea, Syria, and Iran. And as you weigh the evidence and consider the form of reprimand, keep in mind the following: the penalty must fit the crime; neither democracy nor peace is likely to follow the end of the House of Saud; and the morality of cable news and the op-ed page counts for little in the ruthless, brutal, conspiratorial, and bloody Middle East.“

A_Van
22nd Oct 2018, 09:28
Many leaders in the modern world are just loose-tongued ....
Though Erdogan feels himself as a king of the (local) hill, I wonder how his promised sensations would look like if within these 48 hours the Saudi would make a good deal with him?
The same for the US, BTW. Trump already said that this episode was not worth defense contracts, and Pompeo was obviously calming the situation down on the spot. But if the Turkish really reveals some awful facts about the murder, they would rather feel uncomfortable.
IMHO, big guys should drop showman habits that they love so much. Do it an old-school style: stay in a shadow and control from there. If your strategy succeeds, step out and drink champaign. If it fails, represent it as a mistake of some subordinates and fire 1-2.

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 11:36
Well, well.
New allegations being made in Turkish media (while those of you in the Northern Hemisphere are asleep) that MBS called Khassoggi on his phone while he was being held by his captors - suggesting Khashoggi return to Saudi.
Khashoggi refused - fearing for his life - and his fears turned out to be correct...
If true - staggering.
If it took place, that call will have been intercepted and recorded.
The Saudis would be wise to consider that before they try and deny it...
This thing's getting more like a third rate Hollywood gangster movie by the day.
Source here in Turkish: https://www.yenisafak.com/gundem/selman-ile-konustusonra-olduruldu-3403508

Erdogan now threatening to reveal everything they know within 48 hours:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/21/world/middleeast/erdogan-khashoggi-turkey-saudi-arabia.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

One would imagine that somewhere in the Kingdom tonight there is a very angry and frustrated young prince, and elsewhere perhaps some very dead members of the goon squad...

MBS's day is done.

Nothing will rehabilitate him from this.

Five Eyes no doubt picked up every element of this call so its known.
Saudi's have been the main propogators of IS/AQ in Syria, their play in that is now over, likewise Yemen and they will be required to start handing over info on lots of stuff that they have hitherto being hiding.

Trump's viewpoint of keeping them onside is good for public consumption but it is the behind the scene stuff where they will be getting screwed.
US Administrations will have had Saudi's telling them to STFU and do as told for decades, now they will relish the thought of what they can do.

Going to get really interesting.

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 11:40
I know that Erdogan is milking this for all it is worth and will tug it in every direction favourable to him and his government, but in this case I am rooting for the Turks to keep making Hades hot for both the Sauds and Trump's full throttled effort at public relations on behalf of the KSA.


Turkey v Saudi's ..............rooting for Turks on this occasion.

Reckon Russians and Americans are both assisting Turkey as well.................. unofficially.

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 11:45
It seems that Erdogan might be giving this histronic "48 hours" spiel to try to extract some serious coin from the Saudis. He needs the money since the currency has taken such a hit so who can blame him for leveraging what he has to get some tosh?

I am neutral about Israel, but Rather be Flying makes a point about Bibi (and the Saudis I mght add) havng a spanner in the works over his plans to have the Yanks be the hired hand in facing Iran. US leaders of all stripes for shoud earn stupid points for having been played so badly. I still do not understand the target fixation with Iran when they have bigger fish to fry. Walking, wide awake, into a morass--especially after they squandered so much treasure by deposing Saddam and setting the Iranians up in the cat bird seat for which I am sure they are quite grateful.

Never underestimate the game of Chess where needing someone to overcommit.

Despite the shouts and abuse the rolling back of Saudi' style Wahabism is good for many countrys..................... having a nutter in one country deciding to start wars is not good.
Feel like a Chess game was being played but Turkey had a few Grandmasters suggesting moves.

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 11:52
Governments without democratic legitimacy are brittle and unpredictable—a fact highlighted not only by Khashoggi but also by recent Saudi actions against Canada and the crown prince's delayed IPO of oil giant Aramco. America has sustained and protected the Saudis for decades. Withdrawing such protection would open the regime to both domestic and international challenges. As President Trump put it recently (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2018/10/02/days-before-trade-deal-trump-said-canadas-foreign-minister-hates-america/?utm_term=.a3697e75b337), Saudi Arabia wouldn't last two weeks without American support. The Middle East and Levant already are filled with examples of state failure. Is America prepared to risk another?

A Saudi meltdown would deprive the United States of a counterterrorist ally, roil energy markets, create pockets of instability in which jihadists and Iranian-backed militias thrive, and cause headaches for Israel. To forestall such a disaster, the Saudis, like others before them, might turn to either Russia or China for support. That would accelerate the waning of American influence in the Middle East. It would boost the very autocracies we condemn.

Punish the Saudis if it turns out they acted no better than Russia, China, North Korea, Syria, and Iran. And as you weigh the evidence and consider the form of reprimand, keep in mind the following: the penalty must fit the crime; neither democracy nor peace is likely to follow the end of the House of Saud; and the morality of cable news and the op-ed page counts for little in the ruthless, brutal, conspiratorial, and bloody Middle East.“

Er no

Remove MBS and his henchmen within the Princes, tell Saudi's openess and Human Rights will be their way forward if they want to deal with the West.
There are more experienced people within Saudi that can take over and it will have little impact on way Saudi is percieved.

MBS if allowed to stay will ultimately attack Iran because he is too stupid not to know better and will be led into this war.

Best chance World will have had to change Saudi.

As for Russians and Chinese, they have no reason to get involved IF stuff is handled in the correct manner.
Handled means talked to NOT at and being aware of what is occuring.

G-CPTN
22nd Oct 2018, 12:31
Latest updates from al Jazeera. (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/jamal-khashoggi-case-latest-updates-181010133542286.html)
one member of the 15-strong Saudi team sent to kill Jamal Khashoggi was a body double, named Mustafa al-Madani.
footage appearing to show al-Madani leaving the Saudi consulate in Istanbul through a backdoor in Khashoggi's clothes,
According to the video, al-Madani and his accomplice are then seen taking a taxi to Istanbul's Sultan Ahmet mosque before entering a bathroom and reappearing in new clothes.
The pair are later seen dumping a plastic bag in a trash container.

Andy_S
22nd Oct 2018, 13:38
Remove MBS and his henchmen within the Princes, tell Saudi's openess and Human Rights will be their way forward if they want to deal with the West.

Best chance World will have had to change Saudi.

Did I read that correctly? Are you advocating intervention in Saudi Arabia to topple their leadership? There’s a lot I could say, but I’ll limit myself to observing the jaw dropping hypocrisy of someone who regularly whines about Western attempts to force regime change in other countries. I suspect if KSA was an ally of Russia you would be busy looking the other way right now.

fitliker
22nd Oct 2018, 14:41
Are there any Stan's where Journalists are safe ?
Why would anyone hypercritical of the Saudi Arabiastan ( name on consular wall ) think they would be safe .
How safe are the Hasamites ?

lomapaseo
22nd Oct 2018, 16:14
Why would anyone hypercritical of the Saudi Arabiastan ( name on consular wall ) think they would be safe .

because their actions of entering the consulate were public and that any harm to befall themselves would elicit severe repercussions far beyond the harm to them as an individual.

OK so he was slightly wrong on a minor count

ethicalconundrum
22nd Oct 2018, 16:55
ethical,

But your last sentence brings back remembrance of an older but similar theory, The Domino Theory. It eventually became the foundation for the US being mired in the Vietnam War for years and the tremendous losses of life on both sides that occurred.

In a way, Putin may be correct with all the Trumster created division and disarray in DC. Russia had a taste of becoming involved too deeply in the Muslim world, Afghanistan. I don't think Putin wants an instant replay. And China, they are getting acclimated with the Muslim world in the Congo. The Muslim Congo welcoming committee wasn't so friendly to the Chinese folks stationed there.

Read it and weep.

https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-khashoggi-affair/

Low cost oil is the keystone here. No one outside of Iran, Iraq, or SA region gives a wet, dribbly shit about ME politics. As long as the oil keeps flowing, and the price is stable. China is currently the only friend that NK has. Even though the EU would like to trade with them. SA will go to the highest bidder or descend into anarchy if the US leaves. China is looking at massive private automobile expansion, and automating much of their current hand-labor ag. That - takes - lots - of - OIL. Salman may have to go with the news from Erdogan(or may not depending on how good his intel is). But I seriously doubt the US is going to leave the linchpin of ME oil over a murder of a op-ed writer who has been pointed out is one of their citizens. Same, same for the sale of war materiel. If we don't provide it, China, or Russia will, you can bet the house on that.

Sorry(not really)

pattern_is_full
22nd Oct 2018, 17:19
Ah, yes - the philosophy of whoredom. "Hey, big guy! Just so long as you leave the 100 bucks (or cheap oil, or a tax cut, or a weapons purchase) on the dresser - I'll do anything you want. I'm bought and paid for. Mmmmmm!"

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 17:36
Read it and weep.

https://freebeacon.com/columns/the-khashoggi-affair/

Low cost oil is the keystone here. No one outside of Iran, Iraq, or SA region gives a wet, dribbly shit about ME politics. As long as the oil keeps flowing, and the price is stable. China is currently the only friend that NK has. Even though the EU would like to trade with them. SA will go to the highest bidder or descend into anarchy if the US leaves. China is looking at massive private automobile expansion, and automating much of their current hand-labor ag. That - takes - lots - of - OIL. Salman may have to go with the news from Erdogan(or may not depending on how good his intel is). But I seriously doubt the US is going to leave the linchpin of ME oil over a murder of a op-ed writer who has been pointed out is one of their citizens. Same, same for the sale of war materiel. If we don't provide it, China, or Russia will, you can bet the house on that.

Sorry(not really)

US never going to leave the Saudi's high and dry, $200 billion in trade and a million jobs see to that.
However it will offer "suggestions and guidance" to the Saudi's, which they are free to ignore regarding their future leader.
The ignoring bit will be the one where it could be costly.
I fully expect MBS to relinguish his current position involuntarily but given enemies he has made in SA this is not a surprise.

ethicalconundrum
22nd Oct 2018, 17:42
US never going to leave the Saudi's high and dry, $200 billion in trade and a million jobs see to that.
However it will offer "suggestions and guidance" to the Saudi's, which they are free to ignore regarding their future leader.
The ignoring bit will be the one where it could be costly.
I fully expect MBS to relinguish his current position involuntarily but given enemies he has made in SA this is not a surprise.

My reply was directed at another post which advocated basically that course. I disagreed with that theme and posted this in support of the facts as they stand for the future of the US in SA. There was some generic TDS blather tossed which I found to be irresponsible to the strategic importance of the SA-US alliance. Others have deflected on to unrelated commentary which follow various unproven theories, and speculation regarding SA and terror.

RatherBeFlying
22nd Oct 2018, 18:14
Latest reports are that there were a number of phone calls between the consulate and MbS' office, plus video on CNN of a body double in Kashoggi's clothes, except his shoes, exiting the rear of the consulate (confronting the fiancee at that time would have disrupted the intricate plan). A consular vehicle has been found abandoned in an underground car park. A nearby resident reports unusual traffic that night to the Belgrad forest. More to come.

Unseating MbS is not on as he has many enemies inside Saudi and would be a continuing threat to any replacement. The gore of this episode pretty much precludes exile, unless some Pacific atoll would like a fancy development scheme.

St. Helena ?

G-CPTN
22nd Oct 2018, 18:48
When you consider the preparations (body double) it was obvious that there was a plan.
The weakness of inveterate liars is that their cover story is often transparent (like the child with chocolate around their mouth who swears that it wasn't them that ate the cake).

KelvinD
22nd Oct 2018, 19:22
If we don't provide it, China, or Russia will
Well, there's a useful rationale! The same will of course be applied to Colombia; if they don't supply the cocaine, Peru will.

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 20:01
Unseating MbS is not on as he has many enemies inside Saudi and would be a continuing threat to any replacement. The gore of this episode pretty much precludes exile, unless some Pacific atoll would like a fancy development scheme.

St. Helena ?

Nope he wouldn't be.......................... even US Intell cables highlight the way Saudi's resolved their own internal issues with Princes who were funding Al Qaeda.

It is now only a matter of time as Saudi's starting to lose friends and influenced people.................

meadowrun
22nd Oct 2018, 23:12
There will be no Saudi meltdown.
If more proof the Kid was involved becomes evident, the leadership (Not the kid - there is a king) will choose another favorite son or nephew (he's got tons) and relations will carry on as normal.
The US will not engineer a regime change (the kid), the Saudis will find it's the best thing to do, all by themselves..

racedo
22nd Oct 2018, 23:33
There will be no Saudi meltdown.
If more proof the Kid was involved becomes evident, the leadership (Not the kid - there is a king) will choose another favorite son or nephew (he's got tons) and relations will carry on as normal.
The US will not engineer a regime change (the kid), the Saudis will find it's the best thing to do, all by themselves..

Pretty much as I am seeing it.
US will advise that MBS is unsuitable and let Saudi's make their own minds up.

RatherBeFlying
23rd Oct 2018, 02:42
US will advise that MBS is unsuitable and let Saudi's make their own minds up. Before MbS had taken over the security portfolios, the senior members of the family would have quietly arranged a foreign post for MbS, but the family is faced with a who will bell the cat situation:uhoh:

There was never a member of the Soviet Politburo who dared challenge Stalin. The KGB would quickly scoop up anybody who was slow in leaping to his feet to applaud Stalin's speeches.

The Ritz-Carlton incident made very clear who is now in charge.

No despot with any sense would allow any serious punishment of any of his guards. Many Roman emperors lived, and died, at the pleasure of their guards:E

In the meantime Ahmed bin Abdul Azziz is keeping a low profile in London.

Uncle Fred
23rd Oct 2018, 09:16
I found this to pretty much, in three minutes, sum up the calculus of the region. Speaks to the motivationsf the various players. We shall shortly see what Mr. Erdogan has or has not...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/22/world/middleeast/khashoggi-saudi-israel.html

Uncle Fred
23rd Oct 2018, 09:30
FWIW here is the live feed through tge Guardian of Erdogan's speech: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2018/oct/23/jamal-khashoggi-death-erdogan-turkish-parliament-live

I guess the real question is if Gina Haspel, te CIA director, was able to get Erdogan to put a lid on it. She flew to Ankara to do just that it seems.

One can only imagine the blandishsments that she had to put on the table. Will they be enough? I am sure Erdogan is running the price up pretty high. Also, should there be real evidence, I imagine that he will wish to retain it for further "use" should the need arise.

A_Van
23rd Oct 2018, 09:51
I wonder if this news is a bluff or not (a leader of a turksih party does not seem to be a reliable source)

https://www.urdupoint.com/en/world/khashoggis-body-found-in-well-in-saudi-consu-462395.html

"The body of murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi was found in a well in the residence of the Saudi (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/saudi.html) consul general in Istanbul (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/istanbul.html), Patriotic Party (VATAN) leader Dogu Perincek told Sputnik."Reliable sources from (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/from.html) the Istanbul (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/istanbul.html) security service told me that the body of Khashoggi was found in a well, which is located in a garden in the residence of the Saudi (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/saudi.html) consul general," Perincek said"

As for Gina H., it looks like that apart of shutting down the turkish she could also brief the saudis how to better "treat" such guys based on the CIA “enhanced interrogation techniques” used in the secret prisons ;)