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Uncle Fred
23rd Oct 2018, 10:02
Indeed, Ms.Haspel is probaby showing the rough boys how to have a bit more discretion and tact when doing the dirty deeds.

tartare
23rd Oct 2018, 11:43
Well what a complete bloody anti-climax the naked truth was... how naive to expect anything more of a tinpot dictator.
I had a sense it was all going to go tits up when Erdogan started off by talking about his recent visit to Moldova.
All he had to do was play a few seconds of audio of a bone saw and screams... and MBS would have been global toast.
Or are we holding our ultimate ace cards in reserve?
Gina must have done some pretty smooth talking before climbing back on the G-5 to Langley.
"Think of the bigger picture, Mr President.
A few more hundred million in arms contracts perhaps?
Perhaps we could actually release those F-35s for delivery that your pilots are training on at Luke?
Don't alienate the King."
Phonecall on the sat STU to POTUS and Sec State from the jet probably underway right now - crisis averted.
Ho hum...

Uncle Fred
23rd Oct 2018, 13:50
Well said Tartare. What a release of hot air that was on Erdogan's part. He had the world's attention and did absolutely nothing with it. The tea and biscuits with Gina seemed to have emasculated him.

DaveReidUK
23rd Oct 2018, 14:17
The tea and biscuits with Gina seemed to have emasculated him.

Or, more likely, he had been made an offer he couldn't refuse.

lomapaseo
23rd Oct 2018, 14:59
"The body of murdered journalist Jamal Khashoggi was found in a well in the residence of the Saudi (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/saudi.html) consul general in Istanbul (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/istanbul.html), Patriotic Party (VATAN) leader Dogu Perincek told Sputnik."Reliable sources from (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/from.html) the Istanbul (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/istanbul.html) security service told me that the body of Khashoggi was found in a well, which is located in a garden in the residence of the Saudi (https://www.urdupoint.com/en/latest-news/saudi.html) consul general," Perincek said"

I don't believe that for one minute.. Storing a body in a well has a tendency to add an off taste to the well water, which lasts for a very long time.

A_Van
23rd Oct 2018, 15:25
...... The tea and biscuits with Gina seemed to have emasculated him.

Or a cellophane packet towering over his head ;)

I don't believe that for one minute.. Storing a body in a well has a tendency to add an off taste to the well water, which lasts for a very long time.

Me too. Such a level of idiotism is difficult to imagine... Spam from yellow press probably. Sorry for mentioning it.

KelvinD
23rd Oct 2018, 16:45
Storing a body in a well has a tendency to add an off taste to the well water
Indeed it does. Now imagine the well is no longer in use. A different ball game then.

Ancient Observer
23rd Oct 2018, 17:21
He was dying to get married?

(Too soon??)

Flash2001
23rd Oct 2018, 17:46
What is the penalty for murder in Saudi? Turkey?

Why a bone saw? An ordinary wrecking saw (Sawzall) would be faster and much less conspicuous.

Flash

tartare
23rd Oct 2018, 23:21
...and now Khashoggi's son is forced to shake hands with MBS for the cameras.
What an odious little barclay hunt the Saudi prince is.

RatherBeFlying
24th Oct 2018, 00:08
It gets worse with every drip. It's hard to think of a more deserving subject than MbS.

Trump now calls it: "Worse cover up ever" and is talking up the Magnitsky Act.

The Turks have asked Saudi to identify the "local collaborators" and produce the remains. Mind you, an autopsy might confirm use of a bone saw and which amputations were done on a live body. The Saudis are faced with two dreadful alternatives.

I would not be surprised if one or more digits were brought back as trophies. Explanation of any missing digits once the remains are recovered would occasion more shame for the Saudis.

flash8
24th Oct 2018, 01:20
...and now Khashoggi's son is forced to shake hands with MBS for the cameras.
What an odious little barclay hunt the Saudi prince is.
He looked disgusted having to shake hands.... notice he shakes the kings hand normally but MbS had to basically grab his hand... King still has some respect suspect MbS has none.

WingNut60
24th Oct 2018, 02:38
........Trump now calls it: "Worse cover up ever" and is talking up the Magnitsky Act.
........

Well, as "cover ups" go, it has to rank as one of the worst ever.

jolihokistix
24th Oct 2018, 03:10
Talking about 'planned', I think the Turks had advanced notice and recorded everything in inescapable detail. Without their unavoidable proof the cover-up could have worked splendidly.

Perhaps Turkey was even in a position to have stopped it going ahead. What say you, Erdogan?

lomapaseo
24th Oct 2018, 03:51
Perhaps Turkey was even in a position to have stopped it going ahead.

Got any examples?

I'm writing a book so make them believable :)

jolihokistix
24th Oct 2018, 04:46
No, but are we allowed to exercise our imagination here? Erdogan seems to be taking the moral high ground, but are things so simple? Is there any moral high ground here?
One woman is waiting outside the SA Embassy for Khashoggi. Is she wanting to make sure he really does as he promised, ie that he files the divorce papers on his wife, or is she worried for his safety, or both? One woman presumably in SA knows in advance that he is going to divorce her. Who set up what? Turkey would naturally want to take care of one of their own, and maybe promised they would watch over him. As I suggested earlier did K fall into a SA trap, and did the SA squad in turn fall into a Turkish trap? If so, then a case could be made for Turkey knowing in advance what was about to happen...(?)

Uncle Fred
24th Oct 2018, 08:41
There does seem to be many layers to this does therenot Jolihokistix? Turkey, an active competitor against the KSA, certainly could have done a good deal of behind the scenes maneuvering.

I see that Trump is calling this the worst cover up ever. Poor him. If only the SAWdis had done this better! He is left bleating his wish that if only everyone would quit sawing on about this.

KelvinD
24th Oct 2018, 09:05
Good point re Sawdis. Aren't they the ones bombing Yaymen?

Uncle Fred
24th Oct 2018, 09:18
Good point re Sawdis. Aren't they the ones bombing Yaymen?

Yes, thats them. The House of Sawed.

Toadstool
24th Oct 2018, 15:39
Yes, thats them. The House of Sawed.

Interesting to note that our Cousins call them "Sawdees" whereas, I think, the rest of the English speaking countries call them by the phonetically correct way of saying it i.e the way the Saudis call themselves. Tomato Tomato.

jolihokistix
24th Oct 2018, 15:51
Shades of Audi?

Lonewolf_50
24th Oct 2018, 16:34
Cast your mind back, Lonewolf, and see if you can come up with another sitting US President who has lavished as much praise, shown as much credulity towards, various dictators as Donald Trump has? Literally to tell us that he's fallen in love with Kim Jong Un, and that he believes Putin over what our own intelligence services have told him in some detail is just insane, nothing more, nothing less. I generally agree with this, though 'insane' is to me the wrong term. Self centered: Trump believes that it's all about him, and his personal relationships with leaders, rather than it being about our nation and our (collective) relationship with nations/leaders. It is IMO one of his core blind spots/weaknesses as a President, particularly at the foreign policy level. PM me with concrete examples of how I have targeted you with lies and pigeon-holing and I will see what I can do about that, Lonewolf. If you insult me in public, I'll be happy to address it in public. The most annotying recent case was about the Posse Commitatus issue, and the assumptions you made that you had to be called on. Your recent passive aggressive response in re Wylie Coyote is in a similar mode, though less directly insulting.

I have enjoyed discussing with you a whole host of things on PPRUNE over something like ten years, chuks. Something changed after Trump got elected, and it wasn't me. It is and was you. Your posts in re politics have time and again taken on the tenor of "if you don't agree with me you must be a Trump lover" to include when you reply to me. You sometimes try to dress it up with prose that you think is clever, but it is rather transparent, even though I appreciate that you are playing and you do have a well developed sense of humor.

Please stop doing that passive aggressive, dishonest crap, with me.
I rarely post on JB, or in a political thread, anymore for a variety of reasons. Part of it is that the membership in general here (of all shapes and sizes) have lost their fcuking minds ever since Donald Trump got elected.
ON TOPIC INFORMATION NOW
As I see it, this issue in Turkey, which is the topic of this thread, isn't about Trump beyond the fact that we (the US) have two difficult allies who have a non trivial issue between each other and Trump happens to be president. That you (and a variety of others) decided that Trump is the important piece here is disgusting, and my comment was informed by that opinion. It means that you all have bought into Trump's BS regarding how it's all about him. It isn't about him.

And you don't seem to realize that you've fallen into that trap.

The issue with the murder of a rich son of privilege (his old man's a billionaire, or once was) leaves me unmoved. Salman Rushdie has managed to be careful enough to avoid being offed, though the fatwa pronounced on him takes us back to the 80's. The victim in this case failed to cover his six.

The callous disregard for all of those things that are, or used to be, done between nations calls for a response. The most important response is, to me the response by Turkey and Mr Erdogan put some words out within the last day that is not friendly to the Saudi royals. No surprise, they did this in Turkey.

But seriously, what leverage do you think Trump has? The Saudis know that money talks and bullshit walks; they are willing to call pretty much anyone's bluff on this if they think they are in an advantageous position. Which takes me back to the arms deal that will likely proceed on schedule: it's a buyers market. Regardless of what an asshat I think Trump is, I get the idea that he understands that detail and is more interested in ensuring that the deal stands up. He is filling the air with his usual hot air in the interim. That's his MO. Smokescreen of noise as an SOP.

ethicalconundrum
24th Oct 2018, 17:14
If I may - the media plays a significant part in what is bubbled to the top of the news cycle pile. The guy was a resident of US, and a prominent columnist for a major outlet. This means that it would get more play by the media than the killing of some other person by SA or another big player. Trump can either ignore some news cycle stuff at the risk of looking out of touch, or uncaring, or he can have answers(which the media will also hate), and take a stand. Since it was pointed out that the guy was a SA citizen, it would have been just as qualified to say 'this is an internal SA matter, although the US is disappointed with the outcome' and be done with it.

Nothing Trump could say, or do was going to be approved by the leftist media except if we cut ties with the SA govt completely, and retracted all our support, and left with our cap in hand. That would be the WORST thing for the ME in general and for the US and SA specifically. There were going to be no winners in the global policy game here. All we can look for is a least worst outcome. IMNSHO, I would say that would be for the crown prince to be dethroned(he's not really the king), or removed from active SA govt management. He's never, ever going to be held accountable but at least he could be removed from power. I doubt that's going to happen, so again - the least worst case is to condemn them publicly, and see that they understand our displeasure. Anything that removes the US from the sphere of influence in SA and the ME in general is not going to help the world, or the US maintain the flow of oil, and the stability of fuel prices.

G-CPTN
24th Oct 2018, 17:15
The Saudi crown prince has vowed to punish all the "culprits" responsible for the murder of writer Jamal Khashoggi in Turkey. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-45968185)

So, more summary executions?

Lonewolf_50
24th Oct 2018, 17:21
For ORAC (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10288310): Federalist Papers
For racedo: I think you called it correctly.
US never going to leave the Saudi's high and dry, $200 billion in trade and a million jobs see to that.
However it will offer "suggestions and guidance" to the Saudi's, which they are free to ignore regarding their future leader. I hope you are right about this next par, but I don't grasp the nuances of the extended Saudi Royal family and their relatives sufficiently to see who will move on him.
I fully expect MBS to relinguish his current position involuntarily but given enemies he has made in SA this is not a surprise.
@ethical:
Last week a news snippet pointed out that some years ago, D Trump bought a fancy/expensive yacht from the victim's father. I am a little surprised to not see a "this is personal" line from Trump, though he may have tweeted one. (I don't follow Twatter)

ethicalconundrum
24th Oct 2018, 17:33
I'm the wrong guy to ask about tweets. I have no social media presence outside of pprune, a few gun & boat forums, and old tractors. However, I have tended to note that modern 'journalism' is a collection of who tweeted what about whom, and to whom. Twitter seems to be the lazy mans entry to being a media celeb. Not interested.

Trump makes a lot of off the cuff remarks, but they are usually framed around unimportant or non-policy kinds of subjects. Pocahontas, horse-face, Mueller investigation, etc. On policy stuff he's become a lot more guided may be the right word? Or cautious would be another. The tweets regarding tax cuts have been rather limited and circumspect. Sometimes I think Trump uses twitter to bend the media around the axle so they follow a false flag op while he pulls the levers from behind the green curtain. Just a guess...

Lonewolf_50
24th Oct 2018, 17:48
We'll see if the Magnistky Act talk is noise, or if there is any substance to it, in a few days I suppose.

flash8
24th Oct 2018, 19:08
Just about as I was going to switch channels Mohammed Al Massari* popped up on on Al-Jazeera, usually he speaks persuasive rubbish but I thought it'd be interesting to hear his take on Erdogan and Turkey (sycophantic as to be expected) however he did on this occasion talk sense amongst a voluble stream of Saudi bashing (at one stage he did a thumbs up to the interviewer he got so excited, hilarious) but the long and short of it is he believes Erdogan is going for the kill, to take MBS out of the picture and have him replaced, but due to Erdogan's deference to the King he worded it in a way that he was asking the King to take action, but failing that, he'd take action himself. He also stated the alleged tapes would be released/leaked at some stage, it was just a matter of time.

One of the few occasions I have actually agreed with Al Massari, who actually sounded convincing, Erdogan sees his chance here as a Sunni leader and Khassogi is simply a tool to achieve those aims. Have to admit extremely impressed by Turkeys Intelligence agencies, if you'll excuse my french and I rarely swear, they don't **** around.

*Saudi Dissident/Muslim Brotherhood etc.

Chronus
24th Oct 2018, 20:16
Quote from flash 8:
"Have to admit extremely impressed by Turkeys Intelligence agencies, if you'll excuse my french and I rarely swear, they don't **** around"
The Turks have been much underestimated, Galipoli, their war of independence against Greece thereafter and keeping out of WW2, being a good examples.
This recent event is another example of its repetition. This time by the Saudis who may have thought Turkish soil is a better bet than US soil to carry out the foul deed.
The Skripal affair shows our ineptitude in dealing with a similar affair and convicting the Russians with innuendo and flimsy circumstancial evidence, all for political preference and nothing else. Clearly they are not willing to let anyone to pull their strings.

Lonewolf_50
24th Oct 2018, 20:55
Jamal Khashoggi, so familiar with “the real world“, walks into a trap like this. Jamal Khashoggi was not a blind fool. Someone blinded him. I am not sure if you knew this person personally, but I have a different take on this. Maybe he was set up, but if he wasn't aware that he was working in a dangerous situation then perhaps he at least partially blinded himself.

As a member of the media, or what I like to call the armchair media, he had lost the understanding of how damned dangerous the world has become in the last quarter of a century, particularly for media members who (1) go to dangerous places (see Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, various parts of Nigeria or Mali ... ) and (2) make their living writing critically about powerful people in certain countries.

As another poster pointed out, the "little people" get taken down, or "disappeared" with only occasional coverage; when the son of a billionaire, and some kind of armchair media person gets "disappeared" all of a sudden it's news of national interest.
(On a related note, my choice of Pinochet was not accidental in my less-than-loving reply to chuks. People disappeared there with some frequency).
In my own country, people who aren't famous, rich as all hell, nor in some way "a celebrity" disappear with unfortunate frequency; now and again a name or a face gets smeared all over the media (the infamous 25 year habit of "the case of the missing white woman" syndrome; the Runaway Bride was a classic of the genre). Too often, it's only covered locally if at all.

By your reckoning, Khashoggi wasn't a fool. By my reckoning, he had the means and one would hope the world experience to cover his six since he knows good and well that he's poking at a rich and powerful autocrat. If not a fool, then a serious lack of judgment of the kind that we associate with aircraft accidents when the person is a pilot.

None of the above in any way excuses the raw villainy of this act. Whether or not those responsible will be called to account will be interesting to see. I am hopeful that, as some stories are reporting, the Prince may have overstepped his bounds and will have to face the music.
We'll see.
(For the record: my general distaste for the spoiled sons of filthy rich (middle eastern) royalty originated in the various uninspired and less than industrious (censored)s who arrived for flight training some decades ago when I was an instructor pilot for the USN).

racedo
24th Oct 2018, 21:24
For racedo: I think you called it correctly.
I hope you are right about this next par, but I don't grasp the nuances of the extended Saudi Royal family and their relatives sufficiently to see who will move on him.



Wow a compliment.................. not sure whether to lie down or get drunk ;)

MBS was always likely to overstep, saw this from the start.
He's a daddy's boy, promoted well beyond ANY level of competence, he has ever hitherto shown or ever likely to.
His ineptitude in Yemen should have been called upon long before now but everyone looked the other way.
$$$$ Helped this myopia.
The fact that IAF / Shin Bet have rumoured to have been in Saudi to prevent a place coup against him on a number of occaions
plus there have been reports of his residence being attacked show that he doesn't have the depth or level of support
that his supporters or flunky Western media think.

I have enjoyed seeing MSM squirm in not wanting to be too much outraged at their paymaster.
Let them go and :mad: themselves in turning their back on genocide in Yemen for $$$.

There are a number of Saudi princes who can assume the role of Crown prince that will cause little issue in the West including
'the previous pushed aside for daddy's boy.

President Trump called them out a number of weeks ago saying without US support them would have imploded, their umbrage at this
was laughable as he called it correctly and about time a US politician did it too.

Germany is not acting alone on this and while it showing lots of Cojones from Merkel, its Exports and Imports are tiny,
It exported more to Ireland than Saudi Arabia and Imported more form Latvia than SA.
Additionally Saudi's do not have a couple of billion invested in German property unlike London.
So using Frau Merkel as the bootmaster work, even more so as she is female and telling them to go and do one
hurts their ego and "manliness".
MBS is gone but his path to goneness has not yet been worked out just give it time and would expect it to be
bloodless unless he decides it is not to be.

Saudi's should take note that their country are Pariah's and only their cash makes them bearable,
nobody going out on a limb to be their Ally or Friend........................ worth remembering because
at a future time it may be the same.

meadowrun
24th Oct 2018, 21:40
Saudi's do not have a couple of billion invested in German property unlike London

I don't see that kind of thing as any kind of leverage for the Saudis.
They spent many pounds and got some houses, offices. Well done.
Now you've got some real estate. What are you going to do with it?
Two options - Use it. Sell it.

racedo
24th Oct 2018, 21:53
I don't see that kind of thing as any kind of leverage for the Saudis.
They spent many pounds and got some houses, offices. Well done.
Now you've got some real estate. What are you going to do with it?
Two options - Use it. Sell it.

Oh it is because IF you start selling it crashes London property market.
Who else is buying in London ?
Russians ................... not welcome
Chnese...................... not welcome with Govt pressure not to
Qatar................. not enough of them

Saudi's could afford a Ģ500 million hit on fast disposals of UK property and
that will crash property market very quickly.

Additionally Saudi's coming and spending in UK is reckon to be worth
Ģ500M - 1 Billion a year.
UK struggling with Brexit and losing a major spender would be bad.

meadowrun
24th Oct 2018, 22:06
Does it really?
Pretty robust market is London real estate.
Anyone see the Saudis selling off prestigious property at bargain basement, fire sale prices to spite their - - - - noses? - bank balances? - throw the baby with the bath water?
The market would correct this kind of foolishness quite rapidly. Just a ripple.

Brexit seems to be staggering along like a well staggering thing. They seem to be getting down to serious work. Less spouting forth going on.

racedo
24th Oct 2018, 22:42
Does it really?
Pretty robust market is London real estate.
Anyone see the Saudis selling off prestigious property at bargain basement, fire sale prices to spite their - - - - noses? - bank balances? - throw the baby with the bath water?
The market would correct this kind of foolishness quite rapidly. Just a ripple.

Brexit seems to be staggering along like a well staggering thing. They seem to be getting down to serious work. Less spouting forth going on.

Property market relies on confidence, lots of people selling at same time and it will be a herd mentality where everything drops........................ this drives into everything else.
Bearing in mind in new developments the majority are massively sold to oversas buyers.

As to screw a market................. not a rational decision unless you think what point you are trying to prove and then it is very rational..................... losing $500 million on UK property is less than a days production of oil revenues.

Love to know what the CAA Stats are for travel from SA to London because once you stop overseas buyers / visitors watch the high end retailers and hotels take a hit as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45863548

What is bets that it is RR / Bentley / Land Rover / Jaguar / Aston Martin making up a significant proportion of the Ģ280 million in car exports.

Jack D
25th Oct 2018, 01:23
Quote from flash 8:
"Have to admit extremely impressed by Turkeys Intelligence agencies, if you'll excuse my french and I rarely swear, they don't **** around"
The Turks have been much underestimated, Galipoli, their war of independence against Greece thereafter and keeping out of WW2, being a good examples.
This recent event is another example of its repetition. This time by the Saudis who may have thought Turkish soil is a better bet than US soil to carry out the foul deed.
The Skripal affair shows our ineptitude in dealing with a similar affair and convicting the Russians with innuendo and flimsy circumstancial evidence, all for political preference and nothing else. Clearly they are not willing to let anyone to pull their strings.

Ah yes! but innuendo and circumstantial evidence proved to be absolutely right in identifying the perpetrators .. always rather more going on behind the scenes than what is released for public consumption

The guilty parties in this case are little less difficult to identify don’t you think ? Man goes into embassy disappears, ... another man exits wearing first mans clothes and a fake beard .. 15 or so recently arrived Saudis who were coincidentally at the embassy having recently arrived leave the country expeditiously
on private jets ... not sure if this warrants the almost sycophantic complements to Turkish intelligence.

Are Turkey and Russia friends these days ?

flash8
25th Oct 2018, 03:09
You forgot monitoring of diplomatic staff in the days leading to the murder so presumes they always had them under surveillance even before they became aware of this episode.. throw in the allegedly bugged (audio and video) consulate, actually now in the Washington Post (Haspel has heard audio at least it has been reported) and drone surveillance as well as data traffic interception (again alleged of a Skype call as well as mobile calls) I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't got the complete movement and audio/visuals of the goings on at the consulate going back perhaps years. Yes I am impressed.

On top of that I suspect the Turks have yet more evidence they have not released of a highly incriminating nature. Reckon they have had voice/data taps on all traffic in and out of that consulate going right to the top of the tree.

Their drip drip game is a masterclass in itself.

Lonewolf_50
25th Oct 2018, 03:26
Wow a compliment.................. not sure whether to lie down or get drunk ;)
Drink until you pass out? Points on the prince appreciated, have not been following that lot of late, so I have some catching up to do.

racedo
25th Oct 2018, 03:47
again alleged of a Skype call as well as mobile calls) I wouldn't be surprised if they haven't got the complete movement and audio/visuals of the goings on at the consulate going back perhaps years. Yes I am impressed.

On top of that I suspect the Turks have yet more evidence they have not released of a highly incriminating nature. Reckon they have had voice/data taps on all traffic in and out of that consulate going right to the top of the tree.

Their drip drip game is a masterclass in itself.

Microsoft did not buy Skype just because it was a good business...
Try installing it and see what they want you to agree to in terms of data that they want.

Snowden's leaks on NSA and stuff didn't mean they stopped taking or recording stuff.

tdracer
25th Oct 2018, 04:49
Sometimes I think Trump uses twitter to bend the media around the axle so they follow a false flag op while he pulls the levers from behind the green curtain. Just a guess...

Not a guess, I think it's almost proven fact. Trump has been playing the media like a fiddle for the last 3 plus years (it helped him get the nomination) and amazingly the MSM either don't know, don't care, or can't help themselves (my money is on the third).

The Saudi's have been doing nasty things for decades and are probably a little surprised that we chose this incident to get so upset about. They know all too well that we piss off the Saudi's at our peril - they don't need to sell real estate or other assets - all they need to do is stop producing and exporting oil (or even a significant reduction in output - they could afford it, especially since anything they continue to export would become far more valuable), Oil prices skyrocket, instant worldwide recession (and thanks to fracking, Europe/UK/SE Asia are more at risk than the US - an executive order banning US oil exports would help shield the US from the worst of the shock.

ORAC
25th Oct 2018, 05:17
https://streetwiseprofessor.com/the-khashoggi-affair-a-la-le-duc-denghien-it-is-worse-than-a-crime-it-is-a-blunder/

Lonewolf_50
25th Oct 2018, 15:47
@ORAC Not a bad piece, though it has its own biases built into it. Thanks for the link. Point 4 is I suppose needed for some observers.

fitliker
25th Oct 2018, 17:31
I wonder what the blowback will be for the Turks for their spying on the Saudi Embassy .
Credit crisis ,like the 2008 or 1933 credit crisis ?
Bankers can wield the pen of credit just as powerful as any sword.

Chronus
25th Oct 2018, 19:23
Ah yes! but innuendo and circumstantial evidence proved to be absolutely right in identifying the perpetrators .. always rather more going on behind the scenes than what is released for public consumption

The guilty parties in this case are little less difficult to identify don’t you think ? Man goes into embassy disappears, ... another man exits wearing first mans clothes and a fake beard .. 15 or so recently arrived Saudis who were coincidentally at the embassy having recently arrived leave the country expeditiously
on private jets ... not sure if this warrants the almost sycophantic complements to Turkish intelligence.

Are Turkey and Russia friends these days ?

This involves a comparative study of the merits of each one, here is a start.
The Russian method : Use of state of the art, latest tech, contagions.
The Saudi method : The strictly halal slaughter, followed with butchery.

Yes Turkey and Russia are friends today, for the time being, but hey, todays friends are tomorrows enemies and yesterdays friends are today`s enemies. That`s the world of politics, a never ending dance of change partners.

flash8
25th Oct 2018, 19:56
In terms of reputational damage the Kingdom has been blasted to smithereens, Joe public probably wasn't aware of half the shenanigans the KSA were involved in, they do now.

Khashogi was just the pivotal point that many have been eagerly awaiting (but weren't expecting to arise) to take down the Kingdom. My sincere belief is that Erdogan is nowhere near finished and indeed is just starting and will not be satisfied until the Prince is deposed. He may even have evidence today that could achieve that but will not release it out of deference to the King, but be assured, released it will be sooner or later.

Donny has looked like a complete fool again, and I think he was becoming aware of that hence the serious back-peddling we have seen the last few days. If Gina "I deny everything" Haspel has heard the tape it may well be soon Trump will go even further and cut the Prince loose.

RatherBeFlying
26th Oct 2018, 04:48
Independent reporting that Saudi officials told him he needed to get his divorce papers out of Istanbul. Well yes, even the Saudis knew that dismembering Khashoggi in their DC embassy would not be well received. Why they thought Istanbul would work out escapes me:confused:

​​​​​​​It seems Haspel speaks Turkish, but the purported tapes would be in Arabic.Does she understand Arabic, perhaps from the enhanced interrogations she participated in?
​​

Blacksheep
26th Oct 2018, 13:57
$500 million on UK property is less than a days production of oil revenues.Don't be silly. That's barely half a dozen of the kind of houses Saudis own in London. A run-of-the-mill three bedroom Victorian terrace in South Tottenham will set you back US$1million today. :rolleyes:

racedo
26th Oct 2018, 14:07
Don't be silly. That's barely half a dozen of the kind of houses Saudis own in London. A run-of-the-mill three bedroom Victorian terrace in South Tottenham will set you back US$1million today. :rolleyes:

I was talking of a collective disposal rather than a single property.

Chronus
26th Oct 2018, 19:49
Independent reporting that Saudi officials told him he needed to get his divorce papers out of Istanbul. Well yes, even the Saudis knew that dismembering Khashoggi in their DC embassy would not be well received. Why they thought Istanbul would work out escapes me:confused:


​​

Could it be that there were no wells deep enough at DC ?
Another that comes to mind is they are great pals with Donald and wouldn`t want to upset him over such a trivial thing as the disposal of an irritating nuisance and as the Turks are great pals with the Qataris and not on best terms with Donald over his pastor, and a deep well smack bang in the middle of their consulate, surely the choice of the ideal venue must be too obvious.

neila83
26th Oct 2018, 19:54
I'll be honest, I despised Erdogen, but he may just cause a global revolution here, and if he does, all his ills canīt be forgiven, but will not have been in vain.

I still don't get, who on earth came up with this plan as the best way to assassinate somebody? Between this and Salisbury, what on earth happened to hit squads? We all used to assume this stuff was happening but done far too well for anyone to ever know...

Chronus
26th Oct 2018, 20:26
I'll be honest, I despised Erdogen, but he may just cause a global revolution here, and if he does, all his ills canīt be forgiven, but will not have been in vain.

I still don't get, who on earth came up with this plan as the best way to assassinate somebody? Between this and Salisbury, what on earth happened to hit squads? We all used to assume this stuff was happening but done far too well for anyone to ever know...

Erdogan did answer that question when he said " childish and comic" . So it must have been planned by children for their entertainment. As they say children willl be children so we must forgive them, perhaps that`s how Donald will squirm his way out of the mess he got himself into. Though he will have to thank Erdogan for showing him a way out.

racedo
26th Oct 2018, 20:31
Could it be that there were no wells deep enough at DC ?
Another that comes to mind is they are great pals with Donald and wouldn`t want to upset him over such a trivial thing as the disposal of an irritating nuisance and as the Turks are great pals with the Qataris and not on best terms with Donald over his pastor, and a deep well smack bang in the middle of their consulate, surely the choice of the ideal venue must be too obvious.

Pastor is and has always been an irrelevance.
He was arrested in October 2016, charged in December 2016 and it only became a political ISSUE point in June 2018.
Releasing him couple of weeks before Mid Terms helps Trump prove he looking after Christians.
He is unlike any other WH incumbent in decades but this was a political move and a good one.

Saudi's really stupid but needed a way to get him in Saudi controlled area and US was out of question.
Any other country was questionable as he would be suspicioys but could justify using Turkey as his intended was from there.

In all probability what was going to occur was known about as Saudi intelligence well and truly penetrated.

racedo
26th Oct 2018, 20:36
I'll be honest, I despised Erdogen, but he may just cause a global revolution here, and if he does, all his ills canīt be forgiven, but will not have been in vain.
.

Don't confuse disputes and shouting matches between Nations as War, often they are just part of a long term game plan.

Turkey did not act on their own and feel they had quite a bit of "unverified assistance", just because people hate each other it
doesn't mean they don't have the ultimate same goal.................... FDR / Churchill and Stalin showed that,

Maybe MBS wanted to send some buckets of Sunshine someone's way.

G-CPTN
10th Dec 2018, 01:25
Saudis refuse Turkey extradition request (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-46501472).

meadowrun
4th Feb 2019, 14:41
1Feb19
"A US judge has ruled that Syrian President Bashar Assad's government is liable for at least $302.5 million in damages for its role in the 2012 death of American journalist Marie Colvin." (anyone remember her?)
"US District judge Amy Berman Jackson said in a ruling made public on Wednesday that the Syrian government " engaged in an act of extrajudicial killing of a United States national."
Colvin and French photographer Remi Ochlik were killed in Homs. The lawsuit filed by Colvin's family in 2016 accused officials in Assad's government of deliberately targeting a studio where Colvin was working."

Now in a non-Bizarro world, I would expect similar proceedings against the Saudi Arabian government and the Crown boy Prince for the extrajudicial killing of Khashoggi,
a much stronger case. Any bets?

DaveReidUK
4th Feb 2019, 16:54
"A US judge has ruled that Syrian President Bashar Assad's government is liable for at least $302.5 million in damages for its role in the 2012 death of American journalist Marie Colvin." (anyone remember her?)

I think we can safely assume that at least some people do.

QLKEvmbxV0U

KelvinD
4th Feb 2019, 17:22
meadowrun: The same thought had occurred to me, along with various families in the Middle East region who took delivery of unwanted US missiles etc.

racedo
4th Feb 2019, 21:10
1Feb19
"A US judge has ruled that Syrian President Bashar Assad's government is liable for at least $302.5 million in damages for its role in the 2012 death of American journalist Marie Colvin." (anyone remember her?)
"US District judge Amy Berman Jackson said in a ruling made public on Wednesday that the Syrian government " engaged in an act of extrajudicial killing of a United States national."
Colvin and French photographer Remi Ochlik were killed in Homs. The lawsuit filed by Colvin's family in 2016 accused officials in Assad's government of deliberately targeting a studio where Colvin was working."

Now in a non-Bizarro world, I would expect similar proceedings against the Saudi Arabian government and the Crown boy Prince for the extrajudicial killing of Khashoggi,
a much stronger case. Any bets?

Can US Court prove that said Journalist was actually in Syria from the stamp in her passport beyond all reasonable doubt ?
Oh wait she was there illegally and without consent of sovreign Government.

Now US Admin will want to kill this one as it has executed US citizens with ISIS and could get tricky, also Israel I believe has killed US Nationals as well.

RatherBeFlying
5th Feb 2019, 00:27
There was a school bus full of kids in Yemen that was hit with US ordnance likely from a Saudi aircraft that the USAF refueled. Judge Amy might just find US and MbS 50/50 liable - 300 million per kid adds up to a big number.

Then there's hundreds of wedding and funeral attendees taken out by US ordnance since 9/11:ouch:

Andy_S
5th Feb 2019, 12:49
Oh wait she was there illegally and without consent of sovreign Government.

Well, your murderous mate Assad was never exactly going to invite her in to expose the crimes of his regime. But like the superb war journalist she was, she found a way.

Chronus
6th Feb 2019, 20:18
Corpus Delicti. That would have been very much the most important pre-requisite of any planning that may have been carried out.