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Nurse2Pilot
10th Oct 2018, 20:58
I have very little flight experience and just really starting to look into this and the initial plan is to go commercial and fly for airlines but I'm also considering some flight instructing work at some point. How do I go about this? PPL (say 50 hours), hour-build (200 hours?), then CPL, then FI course?

Can this be done on a Class 2 Medical?

Thanks!

jeepys
10th Oct 2018, 21:32
N2P,
before you commit yourself any further it may be prudent to get a class 1 medical first. It would be a shame to do all that hard work and spend lots of money only to find out you have a heart murmur for example. It's happened plenty of times in the past.

Nurse2Pilot
10th Oct 2018, 22:34
I guess that means this cannot be done on a Class 2?

rarelyathome
11th Oct 2018, 05:01
PPL & FI can be on a Class 2 but CPL needs a Class 1. The advice to get a Class 1 is so that your dreams don’t get shattered when you’re some way down the line having spent a lot of money only to find out that you have a medical problem that prevents you from getting a CPL. It lets you make an informed choice in that situation.

Whopity
11th Oct 2018, 16:23
Something else you need to be aware of, if you go down the CPL route and take the ATPL exams, then you start a clock whereby having passed all the exams, you only have 3 years to obtain both a CPL and an IR to freeze it all otherwise you would have to resit the theoretical exams.

rudestuff
11th Oct 2018, 17:22
... Which is why you should always do the IR before the CPL. An SEIR would freeze the ATPLs and only cost you about £2000. It's a no-brainer.

Nurse2Pilot
11th Oct 2018, 17:33
So I can flight instruct under FI and a Class 2? I was under the idea that I needed FI and CPL to be able to be paid for FI work, I guess that's wrong?

I do understand the logic behind getting a Class 1 first if the goal is airline pilot.

Whopity
11th Oct 2018, 18:22
I was under the idea that I needed FI and CPL to be able to be paid for FI work, I guess that's wrong? You can be a FI with a PPL but to teach other than LAPL as a FI you must have passed CPL level theory, for the purpose of instructing there is no expiry date with this. You only need a Class 2 medical if you instruct as a PPL holder however; to undergo the FI course as a PPL holder you need 150 hours PIC compared to 100 hours PIC for a CPL holder. A PPL FI can be remunerated for Instructing and Examining.

Nurse2Pilot
11th Oct 2018, 20:30
Thanks for the info Whopity! Please let me repeat that to check if I understood you correctly:
> Class 2 - PPL - FI = can only teach LAPL and with a 150hr PIC requirement, can be remunerated
> Class 2 - PPL - FI - CPL theory = can teach PPL and with a 100hr PIC requirement, can be remunerated

As long as I don't take the ATPL exams, I'm not on any timer for anything.
I can take the CPL theory and thus be a CPL holder without having to take ATPL. Can someone confirm what is the requirements to start CPL?

Where is all this info written down so I can take a look for future reference?

Thanks very much for the help!

rudestuff
11th Oct 2018, 22:14
There's very little difference between the ATPL and CPL exams. If anything there's more support for the ATPLs so you're better off doing them.

The bottom line is if you want to teach PPL you'll need them. And if you get them, you should just get the CPL and IR anyway, it'll be cheaper.

Cap804 is a good place to start.

Nurse2Pilot
11th Oct 2018, 22:29
Thanks for pointing me to Cap804 but not sure what you're saying with the rest of your post.

In the long run, I'll be wanting to do both CPL and ATPL anyway but worse-case scenario is that I won't have the funding to go all the way to the end and that's why I'm looking at doing some FI work to keep myself in the scene, earn some extra cash alongside my current job, and continue saving up for the rest of the training (or paying for the loans taken out). I guess the question here is what's the cheapest way to get remuneration for flying, be it flight instructing or banner towing or glider towing or hauling up skydivers?

I'd like to be useful sooner rather than later so IR and night flying would be useful, I think.

rarelyathome
12th Oct 2018, 08:44
There's very little difference between the ATPL and CPL exams. If anything there's more support for the ATPLs so you're better off doing them.

The bottom line is if you want to teach PPL you'll need them. And if you get them, you should just get the CPL and IR anyway, it'll be cheaper.

Cap804 is a good place to start.

Cap 804 is info only. https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf is where you should look.

Whopity
12th Oct 2018, 19:20
There's very little difference between the ATPL and CPL exams. CPL Theory Exams = 350 hours; CPL+IR = 500 hours and ATPL =750 hours Instruction required.
The real problem is that ATOs are geared up to teaching ATPL theory and it can be quite difficult to find one offering CPL theory only.

If you take the CPL only and want to move on you will have to resit the exams you have already taken with the associated costs.

The refference above only takes you to the AMC for part FCL. The Consolidated version of the Aircrew Regulation can be found here (https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Part-FCL.pdf)

Duchess_Driver
13th Oct 2018, 10:44
If you want my £0.02...

hour build, IMC and night after/whilst ATPL TK

full CPL course

FIC

work and build experience//funds

MEP. And IR

work and build experience

APS MCC

Why...? Well, the extra 50hrs P1 required for PPL FI will probably cost you more than the 25 CPL course (which you’d need to do anyway so where you pick up the BIFM 10 hours doesn’t really matter.

Do your CPL and FI at the same place (and hopefully that would do the ME and IR as well).

Nurse2Pilot
13th Oct 2018, 14:12
So many acronyms!!
ATPL TK - what does the TK stand for?
FIC - Flight Instructor Course?
BIFM?

I was hoping to do my study at Bartolini but it seems that I cannot afford to go income-less for the time it takes to do something like PPL. It's three months in Poland with no income and while it's cheaper, the loss of income doesn't seem to make up for it compared to say doing PPL locally over 4-6 months while still working.

Whopity
13th Oct 2018, 15:44
TK= Theoretrical Knowledge.
BIFM= Basic Instrument Flight Module (10hours) common to both CPL and IR Courses.
You should also bear in mind that whilst we have a European Licence the course in different countries can be quite different and if you want to be a FI, you stand a much better chance of getting work if you train in the country where you hope to teach. The ATPL Exams are common through the EU States but the PPL exams are totally different in each State.

Nurse2Pilot
13th Oct 2018, 17:55
Thanks for clarifying! I do indeed hope to teach in the UK.

Drussjnr
13th Oct 2018, 20:33
At the moment lots of schools are paying or bonding FICs so before you jump in somewhere and pay look for these sorts of opportunities. One example being FTE Jerez running their Flight Instructor Career Development Programme. 3 year bond no payment from yourself and have the oppurtunity to gain ME IR rating later on whilst teaching PPL level. This sort of thing would allow you to pay for an ME IR whilst working in industry.

Nurse2Pilot if your not already I would head down to Pilot Careers Live in london on 2/3 november, lots of schools and lots of places to get answers.

kick the tires
13th Oct 2018, 20:54
Class 1 is required for PPL instruction as it is 'single pilot commercial operations carry passengers' (passenger being someone under training, i.e. no licence)

Happy to be proved wrong!

Nurse2Pilot
13th Oct 2018, 20:56
I did not know about this, thanks!!

I did know about the career day in London but unfortunately, I'm working that weekend and I'm most probably going to be in charge of the department again so it's hard to weasel out of those shifts.... but I'll do my best!

Truth be told, I'm still unclear/unsure about this path. What does it take to get there course-wise and money-wise? Is it a smart detour vs. going straight for ATPL and putting myself on the airline market as opposed to the flight instructing scene? The pay difference is silly and if the numbers I read on here are correct, I cannot maintain a career as an FI so I'll still be looking at airlines later on, but I would love to flight instruct as I do love teaching. I just cannot sacrifice financial opportunities for it. Will I get clearer answers on the career day? I don't even know what questions to ask!

Drussjnr
13th Oct 2018, 21:00
Class 1 is required for PPL instruction as it is 'single pilot commercial operations carry passengers' (passenger being someone under training, i.e. no licence)

Happy to be proved wrong!

The medical if for the flying licence... in this instance the PPL, The FI rating is a rating to be added to the PPL licence making the holder PPL FI(R). I dont see how having the FI rating all of a sudden increases the class 2 for a ppl to class 1?

Happy to be proved wrong! ;)

kick the tires
13th Oct 2018, 21:08
The medical if for the flying licence... in this instance the PPL, The FI rating is a rating to be added to the PPL licence making the holder PPL FI(R). I dont see how having the FI rating all of a sudden increases the class 2 for a ppl to class 1?

Happy to be proved wrong! ;)

As a PPL(FI) you are operating in a commercial role and taking a student (passenger) flying for reward, whereas as a PPL holder you are operating solely as a private pilot.

You can still fly on a Class 2 as a PPL(FI) but not when exercising the privileges of your FI rating.

Nurse2Pilot
13th Oct 2018, 21:18
Source for this, kick?

Looked at the FTE opportunity, they want PPL+CPL, Class1, ICAO 5 applicants. Anyone got any idea what a competitive salary on the same benefits as a standard FTEJerez employee comes down to in actual numbers? If this is any good, I'll be going for my Class 1 ASAP!!

Whopity
13th Oct 2018, 21:43
Class 1 is required for PPL instruction as it is 'single pilot commercial operations carry passengers' (passenger being someone under training, i.e. no licence)

Happy to be proved wrong!
WRONG! A PPL requires a Class 2 Medical Certificate and the privileges of the licence include remunerated Flight Instruction where the holder has a valid Flight Instructor Certificate
FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges
(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on
aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations.
(b) Notwithstanding the paragraph above, the holder of a PPL(A) with instructor or examiner
privileges may receive remuneration for:
(1) the provision of flight instruction for the LAPL(A) or PPL(A);
(2) the conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences;
(3) the training, testing and checking for the ratings or certificates attached to this licence.

A student pilot is a crew member under training, not a passenger.

Drussjnr
13th Oct 2018, 21:53
As a PPL(FI) you are operating in a commercial role and taking a student (passenger) flying for reward, whereas as a PPL holder you are operating solely as a private pilot.

You can still fly on a Class 2 as a PPL(FI) but not when exercising the privileges of your FI rating.

the air navigation order states that the holder of a PPL is entitled to fly as pilot in command of any of the types or classes the occupant has on his licence. However, the holder may not receive any remuneration for services as a pilot, accept for towing a glider, dropping parachutists or has a flight instructors rating. A PPL holder with instructor or examiner privileges may receive remuneration for: Provision of flight instruction for the LAPL or PPL, Conduct of skill tests and proficiency checks for these licences; or for the ratings and certificates attached to these licences.

Looking in CAP 804 I cannot see anywhere it states for issue of PPL FI(R) they need a Class 1 nor to exercise privileges.

kick the tires
13th Oct 2018, 21:56
FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges

This lists the privileges of a PPL, which is not the point in question; but it makes no mention of Class of medical.

On the back of my medical certificate it breaks it down into commercial and non-commercial i.e. Class One = single pilot commercial operations with a non-licensed person, be it passenger or training crew member, is flying for reward as a single pilot.

Drussjnr
13th Oct 2018, 22:01
Source for this, kick?

Looked at the FTE opportunity, they want PPL+CPL, Class1, ICAO 5 applicants. Anyone got any idea what a competitive salary on the same benefits as a standard FTEJerez employee comes down to in actual numbers? If this is any good, I'll be going for my Class 1 ASAP!!

One of my ex instructors moved out to FTE back in 2016, He started on roughly €24k and said it would rise to roughly €29k, that as a basic PPL instructor not a MEIR instructor... Things may have changed but thats the most recent figure i know. They keep their pay figures quite guarded!

Nurse2Pilot
13th Oct 2018, 22:24
FCL.205.A PPL(A) — Privileges

This lists the privileges of a PPL, which is not the point in question; but it makes no mention of Class of medical.

On the back of my medical certificate it breaks it down into commercial and non-commercial i.e. Class One = single pilot commercial operations with a non-licensed person, be it passenger or training crew member, is flying for reward as a single pilot.Well, we know PPL only requires a Class 2, and FCL.205.A says, remuneration is possible when providing FI to LAPL or PPL but does not specify that this remuneration now needs a Class 1, so I guess we're reading something that's not there?

Drussjnr, 24K EUR or around £21K is.... something that even brand-new nurses don't start on. Even 29K EUR or £25K is.... low. Is living in Spain that much cheaper? The rent for a 3-bed apartment listed on the FTEJerez HR guide is the same cost as my 3-bed terraced, so don't see much difference there! I've sent them an email anyway so let's see if they respond with solid figures. Don't get me wrong, I'm not all in for the money but I expect to have loans to pay especially if I'm going to fast-track my training so a good salary would be ideal and a bad salary may turn this into a non-starter.

Whopity
13th Oct 2018, 22:52
The Air Navigation Order is a National document that is superceed by the EC Regulation. CAP 804 is defunct as far as EU regulation goes
Article 7 of the Basic Regulation:2. Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot
if he or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate
to the operation to be performed. A student is acting as a pilot and does therefore meet the definition of a passenger.
Annex IV to the Aircrew RegulationRequirements for medical certificates
MED.A.030 Medical certificates
(a) A student pilot shall not fly solo unless that student pilot holds a medical certificate, as required for the relevant licence.
(b) Applicants for and holders of a light aircraft pilot licence (LAPL) shall hold at least an LAPL medical certificate.
(c) Applicants for and holders of a private pilot licence (PPL), a sailplane pilot licence (SPL), or a balloon pilot licence (BPL) shall hold at least a Class 2 medical certificate.
(f) Applicants for and holders of a commercial pilot licence (CPL), a multi-crew pilot licence (MPL), or an airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) shall hold a Class 1 medical certificate.
The holder of a PPL may exercise the privileges of the licence given in FCL.205.A (above)

xrayalpha
14th Oct 2018, 08:37
N2P,

This advert from ACS in Scotland might help you decide to go straight for airlines!

They estimate around £16k a year for an FI. You would be better off working in McDonalds or stacking shelves in Aldi.

https://afors.com/aircraftView/44191

My tuppence worth. Do your three 12 hour shifts a week as a nurse (in Scotland, anyway) and work as a part time FI (maybe microlights? You could be microlight FI(R) for about £6k) and enjoy flying and teaching. Maybe even just do two shifts a week as a nurse on the bank, and you have a good basic regular income to sort out the bills and then do some flying.

Or go straight to the airlines.

selfin
14th Oct 2018, 09:43
As a PPL(FI) you are operating in a commercial role ...

Flight instructing under UK and EU law is a non-commercial operation.

the air navigation order states that the holder of a PPL is ...

The Order refers to UK national licences and ratings as defined in Schedule 8.

Nurse2Pilot
14th Oct 2018, 14:50
They estimate around £16k a year for an FI. You would be better off working in McDonalds or stacking shelves in Aldi.They're having a laugh, right? I hope that's a typo or maybe a 10+ year old advert? Full-time instructing at £16K per annum is just a non-starter. Brand new nurses start at £22K basic with take-home pay at a much higher level once lates, nights, weekends, and overtime comes in.

Whopity
14th Oct 2018, 16:02
Full-time instructing at £16K per annum is just a non-starter. Very few FIs are salaried, most are paid by the hour, flight hours only. You can earn more money teaching people to ride horses than to fly aeroplanes.

dook
14th Oct 2018, 16:38
Or drive a car...………...

Nurse2Pilot
15th Oct 2018, 10:55
Yeah but I have no desire to ride horses.... so like I said, full-time instructing at £16K is a non-starter. Part-time instructing, however, where the bill payment is not dependent on flight hours, I can very well see myself doing, but provided the pay is reasonable. Basically, the idea is to do FI on the side with my main job so as to be able to save up more for the other courses needed for the airline role.... if a nursing agency shift pays significantly more than a day spent in the flight school, then again, it'll be a no-brainer. I'll probably be okay with a slight dip in income for the day, but that'll only be up to a point after which it would be silly to choose one over the other.

Duchess_Driver
15th Oct 2018, 12:18
You'll find 16K is possibly a little on the light side now for full time, professional instruction but geographics have a lot to do with it. PPL Instruction has always been a 'passion' career or for time builders - it's only when you get to the big stuff (ME, IRI) that the money becomes 'survivable' but being able to reach the entry requirements for those are a long way off for you. As has been stated, day job and instruct part time where/when you can to build hours and experience then airlines or buy a caravan!

Nurse2Pilot
15th Oct 2018, 12:39
Well, if part of the requirement for an FI course is CPL, then that's really most if not all of the time building complete, is it not? It's only really a 'career for time builders' in the other side of the pond with a 1500hr requirement, right?

Duchess_Driver
15th Oct 2018, 13:46
Time building to get to the airlines rather than hour building to get the licence...

rudestuff
15th Oct 2018, 14:33
Thanks for pointing me to Cap804 but not sure what you're saying with the rest of your post.

In the long run, I'll be wanting to do both CPL and ATPL anyway but worse-case scenario is that I won't have the funding to go all the way to the end and that's why I'm looking at doing some FI work to keep myself in the scene, earn some extra cash alongside my current job, and continue saving up for the rest of the training (or paying for the loans taken out). I guess the question here is what's the cheapest way to get remuneration for flying, be it flight instructing or banner towing or glider towing or hauling up skydivers?

I'd like to be useful sooner rather than later so IR and night flying would be useful, I think.

Sure, the point I and a few others was making is that to instruct PPL you need the CPL or ATPL exams. I've done both, and the question standard is near identical, so the only difference is in the number of hours required (not that relevant because you want to save money - so will presumably be distance learning). So the ATPL exams are the obvious choice.

Now the important bit: You can get an airline job with 200 hours/100 PIC but to become an FI holding only a PPL you'll require a MINIMUM of 230 hours/150 PIC, and probably more like 250 hours.
Given that the CBIR route allows you to get an IR while hour building and a CPL course costs less than an FI course, in a nutshell: Becoming a PPL/FI as a stepping-stone to CPL/IR makes no sense because it will cost you more than a CPL/IR!

Nurse2Pilot
16th Oct 2018, 15:05
Time building to get to the airlines rather than hour building to get the licence...What's the difference? 250hrs or whatever the requirement is to get CPL or FI is still 250hrs and would still be recognised by the airlines, correct?


Given that the CBIR route allows you to get an IR while hour building and a CPL course costs less than an FI course, in a nutshell: Becoming a PPL/FI as a stepping-stone to CPL/IR makes no sense because it will cost you more than a CPL/IR!Trying to wrap my head around all that info. What is CBIR?

From what I understand so far:
* I can do PPL/FI under Class 2 Medical but can only teach LAPL (source?)
* Doing CPL by itself is redundant because I'll want to do ATPL later anyway so it's better to just study for and take the ATPL exams but this then sets an 18-month timer to freeze it --- what do I need to do to freeze the ATPL? CPL/IR?
* After doing my ATPL exams and taking CPL/IR (are there exams for CPL and IR or is it just a skills test +/- an oral exam??), and assuming I took a FI course under PPL, I can now instruct PPL


Looking at all this and comparing to the FTE Jerez FI offer, they want CPL with IR, FI, and a Class 1 Medical with 500hrs PIC and 200hrs being flight instructing..... at this point I'm thinking why would someone with those ratings and hours still be looking at FI and not airline applications? Or whoever is in that situation either 1) has no interest in airline and really wants to flight instruct or 2) is just in a holding pool for airline pilot applicants and won't be flight instructing for very long.

Looking at their FI Career Development offer, they want CPL and a Class 1 Medical, but I can't find a minimum number of hours needed before taking CLP or ATPL exams? So can I do PPL, then study for ATPL, take the exams, do CPL, and then apply?

Getting more and more confused now!!

xrayalpha
16th Oct 2018, 17:01
N2P,

Don't worry, even the professionals get confused. The whole thing is now very regimented in terms of production - just churning out at cheapest price on an integrated course someone to sit up front.

Try and do something different, rather than signing up for an straightforward 100k integrated course, and you discover knowledge on how it is done - under today's rules, which aren't yesterday's and won't be tomorrow's! - was one of the first casualties of standardised production.

Tempted to say: you should be asking all of this to any flying school you are thinking of signing up with. If they can't answer, then don't trust them and go to someone else who can.

But..... does anyone really know their way around this mess?

Whopity
16th Oct 2018, 18:14
Trying to wrap my head around all that info. What is CBIR? Competency Based Modular IR
In years gone by we had what was known as the unapproved IR where a pilot with a specific level of experience could do just enough training to pass the IR Skill Test. The JAA did away with that and invented the 55 hour IR Course to replace the 40 hour approved course. Despite the additional 15 hours there were less first time passes than before. This also coincided with the introduction of FNPTs and less training was conducted in aeroplanes.
The CBMIR allows you to obtain an IR with the minim ICAO requirement of 40 hours and may include unapproved training.

rudestuff
16th Oct 2018, 18:17
Nurse2Pilot: Do you want to instruct, fly commercially or both? Can you get a class one medical? Answer those and you’ll start getting some answers.

Nurse2Pilot
16th Oct 2018, 18:22
xrayalpha, glad to know I'm not the only one confused! My local flight school is looking for FIs but they don't really teach anything past PPL/N/IR(R); I was told they are sorting things out that they may provide CPL training but that'll be mid- or late-2019, so I don't know if they can answer any of my questions.... although if they are looking for FIs, then maybe the chief instructor may have a better idea?

Whopity, is CBIR different from an actual IR(R) course? Is an IR(R) course different from that taught in CPL/ME/IR? I'm guessing the answer is yes but just need to make sure.... so can I take a IR (not [R]) course while hour-building?

Airgus
16th Oct 2018, 20:28
My advice is try moving in close circles, get people to know you and to trust you.
Try to find any window to make it an opportunity to fly, to build hours and more important build your own experience.
Gliding clubs tends to be always in need of Tow-Plane pilots, I built nice amount of hours doing that and what is better, most of the people there are used to work as a team, they will try to give you a hand if you show yourself available. Sometimes they need to ferry the AC to another club or championship and you can be the one doing that.
Sometimes your acquaintances may want to go somewhere and they all chip in to help you minimize the cost. Sometimes they may invite you to pax in the plane and you can be the navigator or radio operator in a long NAV.
Make the most of every flight and read aviation at least once a day (a bit of books, accidents investigations, training videos/material, question banks).
When the moment arrives, it will be your call to say, wow I like this activity so much, I will invest 9k and do FI for some years (2 minimum) or commit to a sponsored FI program for 3; or invest my money in further training towards the goal of becoming an ATPL pilot.
Now your goal is to fly, get the hours, built your own personal experience, mold your airmanship. You are lucky to be in a nice season, don’t worry so much.

Whopity
16th Oct 2018, 20:29
A CBIR is an ICAO IR wheras the IR(R) is a new name for the UK IMC rating, which was originally designed to let PPL holders exercise instrument privileges using whatever equipment their aircraft was equipped with under specified conditions. At the moment IMC training can continue with a last issue date of 7th April 2019. Its future beyond that is subject to further negotiation.

Nurse2Pilot
16th Oct 2018, 23:26
I take it the IR(R) is a pared down version of ICAO IR? And if I do the IR(R), I'll still need to do the other one?

Airgus, my plan is to get my PPL. I know I want to fly one way or another. Just using this thread to explore options and find out "how-to" after I've done my PPL. There is a gliding club and at least two skydiving outfits nearby that I know of so I'll be knocking on doors later on. However, it is my understanding that I can do these types of flying for free under PPL or get a CPL and get remuneration, correct? Or are they considered "commercial" activities whether I get paid or not?

Whopity
17th Oct 2018, 08:27
I take it the IR(R) is a pared down version of ICAO IR? Considerably less, only 12 hours IF required.
You should be aware that Skydiving clubs like to use skydivers as their pilots and Gliding clubs will only want to use pilots with gliding experience so if you have neither of these you are not likely to get a look in. To be reminerated as a pilot, with the exception of flight instruction you will need a CPL.

Nurse2Pilot
17th Oct 2018, 08:49
Sorry to be a bit thick here, but I want to be sure I get this straight --- I can fly for banner towing or skydiving or gliding with a PPL, I just won't get paid for it, correct?

Any reason for club preference of pilots that have done skydiving/gliding as opposed to someone who hasn't? The gliding club I've been in had older members who are ex-military or ex-airline fly their tow planes, but are you saying they'd say no to someone else taking on this role just because they don't have gliding experience?

Whopity
17th Oct 2018, 09:45
From the regulation:(a) The privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act without remuneration as PIC or co-pilot on
aeroplanes or TMGs engaged in non-commercial operations. So if its remunerated or deemed a commercial operation you cannot do it on a PPL.

There are numerous hazards associated with parachute dropping, and glider towing, therefore to ensure that the pilots involved have a good knowledge and experience of the activity, then it is in their best interest to only use pilots who already have the requisite knowledge and experience. Jo Bloggs who just fancies some some flying with them without the experience is a potential liability and best avoided.

Airgus
17th Oct 2018, 11:29
N2P, get your PPL first, build your experience second.
Then decide.
No one will give you an AC with Zero Hours, unless you are a renter and you did a check up flight and you pay for that.
No gliding club will let you fly their aircraft unless you get yourself there, invest time with them, get some gliding hours (my advise is always if you can, gliding is a great way of learning how to fly) and after insisting they will open up in few months. Tow Banner is a paid activity, so forget about it.
Your first 100 hours are on your own, the second 100 hours can be done with some networking help (gliding towing as an example) if you want to call it like that, but you still need to pump some cash to build those hours.
Flight Instructing to jump to the airlines is like those who can not afford flying will join the air-force to be deserters after few years to become civilian pilots. The core of AF is to serve your nation, not to use them as a bridge.
The core of instructing is to share experience (that you do not have) and you are expecting to build under the cost of the student.
The student is supposed to be learning from you, not the other way around.
Instructing for you will come when you feel like doing it. Not now, not next year .
Follow my previous advice, build yourself up correctly thinking in your future, you have nothing to lose in grabbing a book, reading magazines, flying every week or weekend, until you find yourself in the moment, that you ask yourself whatever you are asking now.
After you get 100 hours as PPL pilot, ask yourself:

Shall I continue the reading and turn it into study to get the CPL/ATPL TK?, yes, then get yourself in that path. Become a professional pilot.
Shall I continue flying weekends as a hobby and remain PPL? yes, then continue with your money making job, safe heaven and nice hobby.
Shall I continue in this club that they know me and become a *CRI to get them a hand flying while I am available?, yes, invest 15k in CPL then start building your CRI experience by doing check rides, safety pilot flights, endorsement for different type of aircraft that club owns, etc. *You need 300 PIC
Shall I continue as FI after that experience?, yes then invest 8k to do the course and start teaching PPL student considering you already are known to that school or club, otherwise, the first year as FI with no experience is a hunting game with a low reward.
Can I grow as FI? well get yourself a MEP, move into a skydiving club that fly twins, get your MEP experience above 100s hrs MEP, get back to the FI as MEP.
Can I keep growing as IRI? by the time you reach it, TESLA would have created a plane that is flown by dogs and no human will be needed anymore.
Get yourself into flying, maybe after 100 hours you realize is not for you.

Nurse2Pilot
17th Oct 2018, 17:17
Thanks for the explanation Whopity! I think the question here is whether skydiving ops or glider towing for a club is considered a commercial operation? I also fully understand your point re: knowledge and experience however someone must start somewhere, correct? Can I not turn up for a few or several sessions to know how things work and then go on from there?

Airgus, like I said, getting the PPL is a given, and thank you for your advice! I may have already stepped off the cliff today as I've signed up with the local school for some flight hours, and as you've said, we shall see. I have had several flights in a glider a few years ago but a few bad experiences with the club meant I stopped going. I wonder if they'll remember me but I have my logbook for proof!

Whopity
18th Oct 2018, 16:37
The skydiving question is answered on the EASA Website.
Can I fly an aeroplane for commercial parachute dropping operation with my PPL (A)?AnswerParachute dropping - Reference: Reg. (EU) No 965/2012 on air operations: Art. 6(4a); Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 on Aircrew: Art. 3(2) The holder of an LAPL or a PPL may conduct parachute-dropping flights, only if the conditions stipulated in Art 6 (4a) of Reg. (EU) No 965/2012 are met. In all other cases, only pilots who hold at least a CPL can conduct SPO flights in accordance with Part-SPO.

A useful link to towing gliders here: https://tugpilots.co.uk/pilots/requirements/
Banner towing requires a banner towing rating in accordance with FCL.805, but not a CPL.

Nurse2Pilot
18th Oct 2018, 21:43
Thanks for that info Whopity!