Cambridge Spies and vetting experiences

[langleybaston]

I am reading Lownie's biography of Guy Burgess, "Stalin's Englishman". It is almost soiling and contaminating to read about this arrogant flawed genius, with filthy finger nails and clothes and Old Etonian tie, chewing garlick, swilling any alcohol in sight, and bumming indiscriminately even when he had a steady living-in boyfriend. How such a bastard was allowed to betray his country for so long is an indictment of the then Establishment, and the unmasking [painfully slow and clumsy] of Burgess, Maclean and Philby may mark the beginning of the loss of respect [even deference] towards our leaders, lords and masters.
However, one fact jumped out at me, the introduction of Positive Vetting, said to be c. 1951, in the wake of Klaus Fuchs and the Cambridge quintet. Thus I, and many RAF PPruners, signed up when PV was tiered on to NV. I expect almost all aircrew needed PV [or a military equivalent] from the outset, a huge task for the ex-Policemen and ROs in flashers' macs to maintain.
NV was good enough for most Met men and women unless they were appointed to certain posts, and my first experience of PV was doing leave reliefs from Finningley to Wyton in the early 1970s. It had to be topped up [5 years]? when I joined the TACEVAL team in BFG [with quite a few bolt-on indoctrinations which I am sure were not relevant on a need to know basis], and lapsed when I went from 1 Group HQ to civil aviation. Finally it was needed again at JHQ.
This last fling involved the usual interview in 1989, by which time all manner of naughty behaviour was legal and tolerated, so some of the questions seemed fatuous.
"What do you consider to be deviant sex?"
"Anything I wouldn't do!"
So, if you are allowed to tell PV tales of long ago, please tell them.

[Pontius Navigator]

LB, not all aircrew. The main criteria was access to TS and other caveated material. I remember one Confessor, ex+policeman. He would interview referred nominated by the subject and other should be decide he needed more evidence.

What asked one delicate question the referee said "Give us a kiss and I'll tell you.". The referee lost his clearance .

I was once questioned as an additional referee. The confessor just could not read his target, nor could be understand what I told him. There were two crucial facts: the target was engaged in an extremely hostile divorce and was in the point of leaving the Air Force and going civvie.

To facilitate the former he spent every penny he had on things a BMW 2500 when most settled on a 2002. Clothes, all beautifully stored etc etc. He had a very regular GF. His interest in the Air Force was not pending his courts martial. He was arrow straight, had no need of a PV, and the whole thing a farce.

I was told that a confession was like a Catholic confessional. A particular wg cdr, having confessed, could not be dismissed. OTOH an airman confessing to his flt cdr would be dismissed. A VSO, posted to the US failed US clearance but because our system was confidential his posting could not be cancelled. It was believe that the US staged a situation where the VSO was compromised.

[Fareastdriver]

I was PVed when I completed my Valiant course at Gaydon as were all aircrew entering the V Force. I was marched in to be a character witness for my best mate from ITS. When I had finished he was marched in to be my character witness.

Despite our efforts we both passed.

[langleybaston]

Thank you both. From WIKI I infer that the process/ grading levels is/ are now much more complicated.

[air pig]

I am reading Lownie's biography of Guy Burgess, "Stalin's Englishman". It is almost soiling and contaminating to read about this arrogant flawed genius, with filthy finger nails and clothes and Old Etonian tie, chewing garlick, swilling any alcohol in sight, and bumming indiscriminately even when he had a steady living-in boyfriend. How such a bastard was allowed to betray his country for so long is an indictment of the then Establishment, and the unmasking [painfully slow and clumsy] of Burgess, Maclean and Philby may mark the beginning of the loss of respect [even deference] towards our leaders, lords and masters.
However, one fact jumped out at me, the introduction of Positive Vetting, said to be c. 1951, in the wake of Klaus Fuchs and the Cambridge quintet. Thus I, and many RAF PPruners, signed up when PV was tiered on to NV. I expect almost all aircrew needed PV [or a military equivalent] from the outset, a huge task for the ex-Policemen and ROs in flashers' macs to maintain.
NV was good enough for most Met men and women unless they were appointed to certain posts, and my first experience of PV was doing leave reliefs from Finningley to Wyton in the early 1970s. It had to be topped up [5 years]? when I joined the TACEVAL team in BFG [with quite a few bolt-on indoctrinations which I am sure were not relevant on a need to know basis], and lapsed when I went from 1 Group HQ to civil aviation. Finally it was needed again at JHQ.
This last fling involved the usual interview in 1989, by which time all manner of naughty behaviour was legal and tolerated, so some of the questions seemed fatuous.
"What do you consider to be deviant sex?"
"Anything I wouldn't do!"
So, if you are allowed to tell PV tales of long ago, please tell them.

Read the book 'Guy Liddell's Diaries Of a Cold War Spymaster' by Nigel West and be prepared to be actually sickened how MI5 and MI6 operated in catching these traitors. Maclean's interrogation was more a friendly chat than actually really holding his feet to the fire. He was lucky it ws the British who questiond him rather than the NKVD which I suspect would have been far more brutal and terminal for his health. Blunt and Caircross should also have been rigoursly interrogated. The establishment at this time covered up treason for which a rope was still an option.

[langleybaston]

Thank you, that will be next on my book list [I have read the Maclean biography, and Philby is next.] Could it still happen? Probably not, because the upside of the death of deference is that young and middle-aged people have been taught to question and to abandon respect for their "betters". Tugging forelocks has gone, unless one wants a knighthood. This is not an easy concept for me, an octogenarian, but it is healthier if inconvenient.
Would PV have ended their wickedness? Not with the old boy system.

[Pontius Navigator]

Have a look at https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/revealed-welsh-fighter-pilot-jailed-2035807

[Melchett01]

Could it happen again? Well the US seem to think so in light of the Manning and Snowden affairs, and there have been recent press reports saying how they are really clamping down on financial issues and debt.

Interestingly BBC4 have just shown a really good 2 parter on submarine warfare in the Cold War. They explained one of the biggest leaks from the Walker family was so damaging in enabling the Soviets to catch up in the technology stakes that the Akulas were nicknamed Walker Class boats. Seems he did it for money too, so I guess they have been burned in the past and therefore their current approach is understandable.

It might be interesting to see if people turn traitor for different reasons in different countries - is there a national stereotype?

[langleybaston]

We may suppose that the money motive might prove the one easiest to detect ........ no point in having it in the bank, and spending above income is very noticeable.
In the liberal cultures developed in the West, many of the erstwhile blackmail levers are much enfeebled:
buggery? no worries; drugs? legal or about to be; alcoholism? who cares ........
Self-motivated and highly educated idealogues may be a rare species in the present climate of cynicism and instant information. The Cambridge spies were a product of their time, an unrepeatable cancer on the body politic I believe. With one significant exception, believing in a creed or a system to the degree required is in short supply. Spies aren't what they used to be.

[air pig]

Thank you, that will be next on my book list [I have read the Maclean biography, and Philby is next.] Could it still happen? Probably not, because the upside of the death of deference is that young and middle-aged people have been taught to question and to abandon respect for their "betters". Tugging forelocks has gone, unless one wants a knighthood. This is not an easy concept for me, an octogenarian, but it is healthier if inconvenient.
Would PV have ended their wickedness? Not with the old boy system.

It is a very dry almost arid book, a good cure for insomnia.

[langleybaston]

Oh!
Sounds like a library loan rather than a purchase. It is difficult to make wickedness dull.

[SASless]

Back in the 1980's, while employed as a NIS (now NCIS) Special Agent I had a weak moment of weakness and assume the Boss Fellah was serious when he asked for suggestions re Personnel Security (think Insider Threat) and I raised my hand and upon being acknowledged.....suggested we do covert Credit Checks, review Credit Card Accounts, and do Net Worth Studies on those folks holding Top Secret Compartmented Information and/or Crypto Clearances.

I was informed just how ludicrous an idea such a thing was.....and I should restrain my thinking to showing up to work on time and other similarly complex issues.

It was not more than a few weeks later when the Walker Spy Case broke....and I was amongst the Team of Agents who removed the Son from his ship during a port call to our Base.

If you remember.....the Senior Walkers were doing their treasonous acts for monetary reasons and were spending money far beyond their means.

Of course.....reminding my Boss of all those facts did not fall within his previous guidance to me and keep my thoughts to myself.

When. you opt for a Security Clearance....you certainly should shed some of your Rights and Freedoms in order for the Government to trust you with very sensitive information.


Look at the current situation with our FBI and DOJ....where existing internal security protocols were not followed by very senior staff of the FBI and DOJ.

There have been some dismissals, resignations, and even a couple of criminal referrals for investigation and possible prosecution......in the end....it will all be forgotten and ignored by those running the show.

[kenparry]

In the late 60s I was put, at no notice, into a post that required PV clearance because I necessarily had access to the war plans for the unit. About 4 months later, a plod turned up to do the PV interview, which mostly consisted of him telling me how brilliant the system was and how much better they were at catching people than in the Philby era.

At the end of the chat, he asked when I expected to be in the post for which the clearance was needed. When I said "Four months ago", he blanched. Two weeks later, a story broke in the press of a junior airman at Digby who had been giving away (or selling - can't recall) highly classified material.

[Pontius Navigator]

Vetting was seemed to be a pretty narrow process. It was assessing your susceptibility to blackmail by or sympathy with the Soviet Union. Loyalty and treason in our modern world has far more flavours. If your ethnic origin is the same as your potential foe, will you be reliable?

In many scenarios the risk will be ideological and not blackmail or financial.

[Pontius Navigator]

Back to the OP, one problem with the confessional was its absolute confidentiality. A wg cdr, confessing to homosexuality would be cleared even though he remained susceptible to outing. An airmen confessing to his superior would be discharged.

A VSO, earmarked for a NATO post in the USA could not have his posting cancelled as that would compromise the confessional. As we wouldn't cancel his posting the cousins set up a compromise which outed him.

[Union Jack]

My favourite PV story concerned the young submarine officer who was having his PV review. He sailed through all the standard questions, but things became more interesting when he was asked if had any unusual pursuits or even, ahem, fetishes. He asked the interviewer what sort of thing did he have in mind, because he wasn’t exactly sure what constituted a fetish, so he was given a few examples.

On hearing the explanation, he then admitted that he particularly enjoyed dressing-up and wearing rubber next the skin, at which point the note taking went into overdrive. When asked for more specific details, such as when he engaged in this practice and whether he indulged in it in private or with others, he replied that he did so as often as possible and that, whenever possible, he preferred to be involved with at least one buddy. The next question was whether he preferred the buddies to be male or female, to which he replied that he much preferred them to be male.

The interviewer, by now burning holes in his notebook, then asked whether he had any particularly favourite buddy, and whether they were civilians or in the Service, and was more than a little surprised to be told that his favourite buddy was his First Lieutenant. This was almost too much for the interviewer, who then asked whether their Commanding Officer was aware of this apparently very close relationship, only to be told, “Of course he does - after all I am the Ship’s Diving Officer!”

Jack

[air pig]

UJ,

Classic.

[tescoapp]

my boss was getting his done for some nuke stuff.

When I was interviewed it came to the sexual stuff and my reply was "well his nickname is Chai Chai". Who was in London zoo at the time.

interviewer leans forward and says "so he has a preference for Chinese ladys?"

"No... he has the sexual prowess of a giant panda" was my reply.

My thoughts that the interview was confidential to the person being enquired about proved to be false.

[Bladdered]

In the early 80s and on my way back to Saxa Vord I stayed over at Turnhouse before an early flight to Lerwick. PSS had decided Turnhouse was a convenient place to do my DV Red Seal! It was latish on a sunday night, I had travelled up from the Midlands and had arrived after dinner had finished - as usual I was thirsty and very hungry and after 4 pints and a packet of nuts on an empty stomach was interviewed by the PSS retired officer. Cant remember much about the interview but regarding having any sort of problems with drink, suspect that he was mildly convinced that this pi$$ed young PO did not have a problem!! As for deviancy, well the sheep looked quite pretty after long happy hours and 6 months without leave but I didn't admit that.

name withheld.............................................

[Chris Kebab]

The old PV process was walk in the park compared to what happens now with the DV - their appetite for details of your on-line life seems to know no bounds.
Just check out Section 22!

DV Form (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/732849/20180515-Form_NSV002_v1.1.pdf)

[Yellow Sun]

If you seek a broader view of counter intelligence matters then Christopher Andrew’s Defence of the Realm is worth the effort to read.

I Pledge Allegience by Howard Blum is an account of the Walker family’s activities.

On a slightly different tack, the recently published Agent Jack by Robert Hutton describes a little known MI5 operation of World War 2. It is not the easiest of reads and is thought provoking.

Finally, there is Geoffrey Prime, former RAF serviceman and GCHQ spy who was never “caught”, but was turned in by his wife after he was arrested for paedophilic offences. It is interesting that the parole board were happy to conclude that a man who had lived most of his life by deception no longer posed a danger and released him on licence.

YS

[ihoharv]

The old PV process was walk in the park compared to what happens now with the DV - their appetite for details of your on-line life seems to know no bounds.
Just check out Section 22!

DV Form (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/732849/20180515-Form_NSV002_v1.1.pdf)

Jeez that DV form is quite the task! I see we are now officially "right on!" in referring to Gender Identity and the honorific Mx.

I agree with the deep-dive into personal finances and the internet stuff has probably replaced the "are you a homo" as a source of interest. And rightly so now the latter is pretty much compulsory in the more interesting bits of public service.

[BEagle]

In the latter days of the V-force, acting as a PV referee for a chum was quite common.

One bloke was asked about the sexual orientation of the person for whom he was acting as referee... "Normal, I imagine", was the reply.
"So you're not sure? Does he like women?"
"I expect so, most of us do. He goes to the same parties, where there's lots of crumpet"
"So there's some doubt?"
"Look, I haven't actually watched him having a $h*g, so that's the best I can tell you!"
"Next question..."

I pitied the poor old retired chap who turned up in his tweed suit at Brawdy to give me my initial PV interview. Summer of '76, a very hot day and the interview was to be held in a small office. I'd just had an hour at low level charging around Wales and had then walked back from the line. So I was sweating more than a rock ape at a spelling contest by the time we started. As the room was very stuffy, he had the full beneft of my sweaty flying suit and turning trousers - so the interview went remarkably quickly and he was soon on his long journey back to civilisation!

[Pontius Navigator]

A quick scan through that DV questionnaire shows how difficult and intrusive it is. Difficult for many to have to delve into family history of partner's parents etc etc. It is certainly not a form you can fill in in a spare moment.

[Finningley Boy]

I received two PV interviews, one in 1978 and one in 1981 when the first was due for renewal. I nearly screwed both up, but didn't, the first chap (and the interviewer was straight from central casting, he reminded me, heavy overcoat, Bowler and brush moustache of a humourless older version of Mr Grimsdale and for all the world had walked through a time portal from 1948.) asked me about my religious convictions to which I said I had none, he said you mean you're an agnostic, I said no I think we're called atheists. He said nothing more, let on not a jot apart from writing something down then moved on. I saved myself by showing off about having rowed against convention, the Chief Tech instructor told me what a silly fool I was then went off to see what he could do after having explained the situation I'd just landed myself in. It worked once I'd had a clarification interview with the Telegraphy School Warrant Officer. The next time was in post at Boerfink in Germany, this time a hail fellow well met type with a soft Scots accent met me in a far more informal setting, he rattled off a list of proscribed organizations which our lot didn't care much for, I was doing well repeatedly saying no. He then came to the Church of Scientology, who are they I asked and he described perfectly a small office on Goodge Street just off Tottenham Court Road, where passers by were approached by someone stood outside and invited in for a chat and a cup of Tea. I was one of the passers by who said ok, I'm intrigued. I told him so and the genial smile disappeared instantly as he started writing furiously. Knowing something was up, I asked are they not to be trusted or something, not wanting to appear too well informed. I managed to convince this chap that I hadn't been indoctrinated into anything daft and that I'd played the event for laughs. But he wasn't happy, but again I got away with it!

Best Regards,

FB

[tucumseh]

Difficult for many to have to delve into family history of partner's parents etc etc. It is certainly not a form you can fill in in a spare moment.

Very true. It matters not now, but I honestly didn't know at the time that my paternal Grandfather was a gun runner in Northern Ireland. I found it all a little confusing. TS clearance, but not allowed to manage projects with companies there, even remotely. Yet I'm still a referee for a 1 Star secret-and-devious type person who spent half his career there.

proscribed organizations which our lot didn't care much for

I discovered in 1985 that if one subscribed to Socialist Worker, promotion beyond PTO3 was prohibited. (One below MoD(PE) minima). An eye-opener to what MoD knows about its staff!

[langleybaston]

Fascinating tales, glad I don't have to suffer DV or whatever.
An aspect of the burden of PV that may ring bells is "can't waste a perfectly good PV" when posting/ promotion time calls.
When I reached PSO/ Grade 7 or whatever it is these days, instead of a forecasting post [forecasting was the only thing I was any good at by comparison with my peers] I was offered Leuchars or Bawtry as an admin wallah with 3 years "perfectly good PV" still in hand.
Not that I minded being spared shiftwork or civil aviation or an HQ desk.

PS Defence of the Realm is very hard going I find.
PPS I do love the "rockape in a spelling contest" must tell my son, who was a rock part timer at Scampton.

[muppetofthenorth]

I did go through DV, but thankfully it was before they'd caught up with the internet and social media.

[langleybaston]

I know of one case where I was a line manager referee and submitted a report/ reference that was meant to be damning and could not be read other than "I do not believe this person is sufficiently trustworthy for this post".
With examples.Result: person got the job.
Baffled.

[Fortissimo]

Way back in the early 80s there was a chap on the Buccaneer sim staff at Honington who had been vetted on posting from an NV flying job. He told us he was called one evening by HQ P&SS, then at Rudloe Manor, and ordered to report to G/C Somebody there at 0830 the next day to discuss his PV. So he drove through the night and pitched up as ordered. G/C shuffled a bit, hesitated and then said (or words to that effect) "There's no easy way to tell you this, but in the course of our enquiries we have discovered that your brother is a homosexual." "Yes sir" says F/L. "Your don't seem surprised" says G/C. "No sir, it was me that told you. Was there anything else, sir?" "Er...no,thank you..." End of interview!

[SASless]

I was called for an interview for my Top Secret Clearance Investigation.

Among the questions asked were some that dealt with prior criminal behavior.

As I knew I had a squeaky clean record (with the exception of a rather lengthy list of traffic violations and Drivers License Suspensions as a Teen Ager), I was surprised at the interest that was shown when I asked for clarification of what "criminal violations" were defined as being.

The Investigator's interest was piqued when I opined I had been rumbled for smuggling in conjunction with an immigration/customs violation for two countries in Europe.

The short version was while working for Agusta on the Libyan Air Force Chinook Contract, I and and a Tech Rep got done for smuggling my Flight Engineer out of Switzerland and almost into Italy at the Crossing nearest Lugano (the small one and not the one on the Autostrada).

We were paid in US dollars in cash in Lugano....and converted a months worth into Italian Lira there as the exchange rate was much more advantageous than in Italy. That required us to "smuggle" the Lira into Italy.

On this occasion, my FE had managed to lose his Passport in a location he wished not to discuss and we using our best thinking hit the barrier and when stopped fanned out an array of Passports and what might have looked like a Passport in a casual glance.

The Swiss Guard waved us through.....the Italians not.

A quick check of Passports readily determined we had one Body too many.

We got turned around and told to cross the bridge back to Switzerland....which we did almost.

We got stopped by the Swiss who of course wanted to see.............our Passports.

They refused us entry.

When asked where they thought we should go....being as how we were on the Swiss end of a bridge which other end was in Italy and we had just been turned around there.....they got a bit puzzled.

Being dead in the middle of Winter....we with our leather flying jackets....with sleeves stuffed full of bundles of Italian Lira.....when ordered to the Guard Shack which had the heat turned up to about 135 Degress F.....we began to sweat two ways.

They kept saying....take your coats off.....we kept insisting we needed to be on our way.....and in time they decided being rid of us was the easy way out.

As they gave us the good news to leg it to somewhere else....they suggested waiting till rush hour and take a chance on the Autostrada Crossing Point.

We did....as suggested might happen...we got waved through by both the Swiss and the Italians.

My guy decided it was not American Laws that got broke thus I was good to go.

[Barksdale Boy]

I was referee for a squadron mate in the late 60s. The interviewer told me that it had been suggested that if "X" was offered "a bit on the side" he wouldn't refuse it. I spluttered indignantly that this was out of the question. After the interview I went straight to "X" and said, "Someone's shopped you mate". He replied, "Oh, no worries. I told them that".

I was always amused by the different approaches to asking if you were gay: the retired Lt Col types would spend about five minutes in euphemistic obfuscation and embarrassed apologies before asking the question; the retired coppers, on the other hand, would bluntly come straight out with "Are you a shirtlifter?".

[Pontius Navigator]

And of course the 5-year clearance was good for the day it was issued, maybe.

Then of course there was the absolute confidentiality of the process - not. I think it was the Provost Marshal himself that blew one character. On our sqn we had a well known and predictable drunkard and functioning alcoholic. It could only have been he who the PM had referred.

Same PM, straight from a meeting with Ministers blabbed about an international security breach. Naturally I rang my ex-flt cdr who had been close enough to get burnt. He said later it had been difficult keeping a straight face when the plots interviewed him.

[MPN11]

Been subjected to the PV process twice - on each occasion there was a degree of fixation about my ownership of cars!

"What's your current vehicle?" "How long have you had it?" "Was it bought new?" "And the one before that?" "Was it new?"
We dragged back through the years before I interjected ... "I know what you're getting at. Look, my wife is also a sqn ldr, we have no kids and no mortgage, and can obviously afford it. Shall we move on?" He duly changed the subject!

The second one followed a similar track for a while. Responses included "Used Jaguar XJ6" and "We're both wg cdrs now". He moved on contentedly!

[Haraka]

My late father and I shared the same first name and residential address.
Unbeknownst to me, as a civilian he held a clearance for the post he was in ..
By coincidence, as I came up for my initial higher vetting, he came up for a renewal.
You can guess the rest.
"Sorry, but according to my notes here, you look a bit young for this one ...."

[Jackonicko]

Langley Baston,

Really rattling good reads on this stuff include Ben MacIntyre's 'A Spy Among Friends' about Philby, and 'The Spy and the Traitor' about Oleg Gordievsky.

MacIntyre is one of those blokes who writes history as though it was a fast-paced thriller.

​​​​​​​

[KPax]

PV interview at Pitreavie Castle by a retired Sqn Ldr RAFP, I had been warned that he liked to stop the interview to have a brew, he would then resume the interview by sitting behind you to ask his questions. I told him to sit in front of me or I would leave, most interesting question, 'what do you think of Arthur Scargill', this was very early 80's.

[BATCO]

Back to the OP, one problem with the confessional was its absolute confidentiality. A wg cdr, confessing to homosexuality would be cleared even though he remained susceptible to outing. An airmen confessing to his superior would be discharged.


PN
I can't speak for the airman, but as a wg cdr I can assure you that "...confessing to homosexuality..." whilst not being 'out' (post 1999) certainly was cited as evidence of dishonesty and the subsequent failure to be granted a DV clearance.

Regards
Batco

[SASless]

Doesn't such policies re Homosexuality themselves create an environment that makes for the possibility of compromise that the policy seeks to prevent?

While doing Background Investigations I always thought removing the environment the fosters compromise would be the sensible way to the security apparatus to work.

After my time....we saw the US Government and particularly the Military alter its policies re Lifestyle issues.

We went from it being a "mortal sin" to be "acceptable behavior".......fortunately I left government service before it became mandatory conduct.

[sittingstress]

So I was sweating more than a rock ape at a spelling contest by the time we started.


PPS I do love the "rockape in a spelling contest" must tell my son, who was a rock part timer at Scampton.

Deer Beagle and langleybastion, I am not hapy about you're speeling crack. Take it back or I will come round you're houses and discust it with you.

Per Ardua

[MPN11]

“This man has a propensity for gratuitous violence, which might render him susceptible to being placed in a compromising situation.” :)

[teeteringhead]

Doesn't such policies re Homosexuality themselves create an environment that makes for the possibility of compromise that the policy seeks to prevent? Exactly so SASless.

On all my (UK) DVs (or whatever they were called at the time) from I guess about 1989 to 2002 - so many renewals and changes - the deal was always "If we know about it (whatever it was) then you can't be compromised/blackmailed." Apparently it also covered "bits on the side" if the missus knew about it. Same logic I suppose...... None of this of course applied to moi!!

[Pontius Navigator]

PN
I can't speak for the airman, but as a wg cdr I can assure you that "...confessing to homosexuality..." whilst not being 'out' (post 1999) certainly was cited as evidence of dishonesty and the subsequent failure to be granted a DV clearance.

Regards
Batco
The tale I relate dated from late 80s - PV - while on a course at a school in Kent. The lecture was by a 'young' provost officer and his subject was hijacked by hostile questioning from the audience, one of whom was the airman's flt cdr.

The point about the wg cdr was startling. If he had reached the rank of wg cdr before confessing then it followed that he had previously lied. I have no clue who the wg cdr was though I had seen rather odd behaviour by another wg cdr some 12 years previously.

Similarly the story about the VSO had only surfaced after he was compromised in a toilet in Shepherd's Bush.

[Pontius Navigator]

"If we know about it (whatever it was) then you can't be compromised/blackmailed."

Always struck me as false logic. Certainly couldn't be blackmailed by "we'll tell your boss" but you could still be blackmailed to stop mates, wives, etc finding out. This was could have applied to drugs, crimes, fetishes, sex etc.

Now if interviews had taken place west of 8 west!

[Melchett01]

The tale I relate dated from late 80s - PV - while on a course at a school in Kent. The lecture was by a 'young' provost officer and his subject was hijacked by hostile questioning from the audience, one of whom was the airman's flt cdr.

The point about the wg cdr was startling. If he had reached the rank of wg cdr before confessing then it followed that he had previously lied. I have no clue who the wg cdr was though I had seen rather odd behaviour by another wg cdr some 12 years previously.

Similarly the story about the VSO had only surfaced after he was compromised in a toilet in Shepherd's Bush.

Interestingly I knew of a RAF Police officer who later came out as gay. Whilst genuinely not an issue on a personal level, this was back in the days when part of the application process asked a direct question as to your sexuality. Noting there was only one correct answer, this individual clearly lied. Given that, what does that mean for any convictions they were involved in securing? Was their credibility, and by extension the integrity of their investigations in anyway diminished or compromised by the fact that they lied in the first place to get to where they were?

[pasta]

Back in the day, it's quite plausible that someone could be living in denial of their sexuality and only admit to themselves in later life that they were gay. It wasn't at all uncommon for people to get married (to someone of the opposite gender) and have a family, before later accepting their own sexuality. In that scenario no lying would be required, as the subject would have believed they were telling the truth when they claimed to be straight.

[ValMORNA]

Many moons ago a colleague of mine, due for an overseas posting, had a home visit from a PV officer. All the usual questions, but included, 'I see you have an electric drill. How much did that cost and what do you use it for?' Highly suspicious, of course, a civilian with a power drill. Drill is only for the troops.

[langleybaston]

Langley Baston,

Really rattling good reads on this stuff include Ben MacIntyre's 'A Spy Among Friends' about Philby, and 'The Spy and the Traitor' about Oleg Gordievsky.

MacIntyre is one of those blokes who writes history as though it was a fast-paced thriller.


Thank you, I have it on my shelf next to read.

I finished Burgess last night ....... good book, disgusting subject. He should have swung. As it is, his exile in Russia was not enjoyed, and he died amazingly young as his habits caught up with him.
My interest was piqued by watching the BBC2 two parter "Cambridge Spies", with a superb cast, such that I see the spies in my mind's eye as those actors.

[langleybaston]

Deer Beagle and langleybastion, I am not hapy about you're speeling crack. Take it back or I will come round you're houses and discust it with you.

Per Ardua
I shall be out.
Not outed, you understand.

[taxydual]

Banter still exists, don't you love it!!

[sittingstress]

I shall be out.
Not outed, you understand.

You will be nocked out for taking the mikey from us Gunners. Now pop out and count some clouds :E

Per Ardua

[Davef68]

Back in the day, it's quite plausible that someone could be living in denial of their sexuality and only admit to themselves in later life that they were gay. It wasn't at all uncommon for people to get married (to someone of the opposite gender) and have a family, before later accepting their own sexuality. In that scenario no lying would be required, as the subject would have believed they were telling the truth when they claimed to be straight.

Not even back in the day, I personally know of one currently serving middle ranking officer whom that senario applies to.

[BBadanov]

Thank you, that will be next on my book list [I have read the Maclean biography, and Philby is next.] Could it still happen? Probably not, because the upside of the death of deference is that young and middle-aged people have been taught to question and to abandon respect for their "betters".
Don't worry with Philby's autobiography, "My Silent War: The Autobiography of a Spy".
A complete whitewash of his career of treason, it really makes you cringe how these cretins could justify the harm and deaths they caused.

[ACW599]

Was it Andrew Brookes who pointed out in one of his books that Tony Benn wouldn't have passed PV when he was Minister for Technology in the 1960s and arguably instrumental in wrecking the UK airframe industry?

[skua]

Did TB pass PV when he was in the Service then?

[MPN11]

Probably not, skua. According to Wiki he wasn’t doing much secret stuff during his VERY short career. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Benn Having started as an AC2 in July 1943 ...
He was granted an emergency commission as a pilot officer (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_officer) (on probation) on 10 March 1945.[29] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Benn#cite_note-29) As a pilot officer, Benn served as a pilot in South Africa and Rhodesia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodesia).[30] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Benn#cite_note-Clark2013-30) He relinquished his commission with effect from 10 August 1945, three months after the Second World War ended in Europe on 8 May, and just days before the war with Japan ended on 2 September.

A bit different to his father, Air Cdre DSO DFC ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wedgwood_Benn,_1st_Viscount_Stansgate

[57mm]

Let us not forget that Denis Healey, as Minister of Defence, was a former member of the Communist Party. Was he PV'd?

[Pontius Navigator]

Let us not forget that Denis Healey, as Minister of Defence, was a former member of the Communist Party. Was he PV'd?
And is on record saying that had it been up to him he would not have authorised nuclear release. Jim Callaghan OTOH said he would. I wonder if HW would have?
​​​​​​

[ACW599]

Let us not forget that Denis Healey, as Minister of Defence, was a former member of the Communist Party. Was he PV'd?

Without wishing to sully the portals of PPRuNe with politics, it would be interesting to know whether the current Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition would be granted a DV clearance in the light of his background. Presumably Prime Ministers (and indeed some other Ministers) need some sort of clearance? Or are they exempt by virtue of being politicians?

[kenparry]

Let us not forget that Denis Healey, as Minister of Defence, was a former member of the Communist Party. Was he PV'd?

While on my joined-up writing course at Bracknell many decades back, the general topic of security clearances for Ministers was raised in questions from the floor to the then SoS for Defence. The response was twofold; first part along the lines of "how dare you cast aspersions against government ministers"; second part was "impossible, it takes far too long."

[Pontius Navigator]

Then of course there are Secrets and Top Secrets.

Do you think for one moment that Ministers are given access to real secrets? By all means they are custodians of secrets that can be exceptionally dangerous if released to a foreign power. Would we or would we not do this or that, yes they determine that and could betray the trust.

DMPI for a missile or bombing attack, names of agents, how a submarine or aircraft works - none of that detail is necessary for them to do their job. Does the missile work or is the subway serviceable, yes they do need to know. But would Sir Humphrey tell them if they didn't ask?

[MPN11]

Well put, PN :ok:

[Melchett01]

Without wishing to sully the portals of PPRuNe with politics, it would be interesting to know whether the current Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition would be granted a DV clearance in the light of his background. Presumably Prime Ministers (and indeed some other Ministers) need some sort of clearance? Or are they exempt by virtue of being politicians?

If I recall correctly Ministers aren’t DV’d as it is now. Putting aside the practicalities that the length of time taken to go through the process is sometimes longer than your average ministerial tenure, the issue is that one of Parliamentary precedence. By putting them through a formal clearance process it may be seen that a democratically elected Minister is being held to account by administrative process. I remember Penny Mordaunt visiting my last unit and at the time she was the only Minister to hold a security clearance on account of her being Lt (RNR) Morduant.

Of course, I would expect the Security Services to have a reasonably good idea of who is doing what to whom and so can monitor things from the outside as it were. Although it is interesting that Ministers do have a degree of latitude not extended to others. Boris Johnson used to have dual U.K. US nationality and I believe Jeremy Hunt is married to a Chinese lady. As Foreign Secretary he is also has Ministerial oversight of the Intelligence Agencies. If a Serviceman with similar responsibility were also married to a Chinese lady it’s fair to say he wouldn’t be in that job full stop and would probably be out on his ear as a major security risk. Double standards - not half!

[Tankertrashnav]

So I was sweating more than a rock ape at a spelling contest

You really have got a thing about the RAF Regiment, haven't you Beagle? Is there something behind it? I'd love to know.

(BTW I hope my spelling is up to scratch).

On a more general point, on the tanker force we had occasional access to TS material, but there was no requirement for us to be PV'd, as NV was deemed sufficient in those circumstances.

[BEagle]

Huh? Wherever did you get that daft notion, TtN?

Good bunch in the main - and with a wicked sense of humour. 'Big Dougie' and 'Wee Benny' made our IOT GDT sessions a pleasure at RAFC.

Annual ODT sessions were often brightened up by rock humour. For example the chap who produced a combopen with a knitting needle poking out - and the other who produced a khaki-coloured aerosol from an official-looking polythene bag, which he then discharged in the lecture room, causing those who hadn't brought their respirators into the room to flap about like wet hens. It was a can of Pledge....:ok:

[Onceapilot]

Of course, Need-to-know extends upwards and sideways, as well as downwards. Pollies, just as everyone else, only have need to know sufficient to be informed about that which they,... need to know! :)

OAP

[SASless]

What they don't know....they cannot leak!

Not that a politician would ever talk out of school would they!

[ShyTorque]

I think it was the Provost Marshal himself that blew one character.

Good grief, they were all at it!

[Melchett01]

What they don't know....they cannot leak!

Not that a politician would ever talk out of school would they!

Of course they wouldn’t talk out of school perish the thought! Or b ...

Do you recall the recent Chequers Summit? So concerned was the PM about leaks that Ministerial aides were excluded and all phones were kept outside the discussion to prevent leaks. I can’t remember exactly when the first leaks as to what were being considered came out - before or after their dinner....

As Sir Humphrey noted, the Ship of State is the only ship that leaks from the top. If politicians had to get clearances in the same way that many service personnel do, frankly I doubt they’d all get through.

[langleybaston]

I think it was the Provost Marshal himself that blew one character.

Really?

I say! This isn't ARRSE you know!

[SASless]

Interesting side note on Politicians and Clearances.....the US President does not have a Security Clearance and does not undergo a Background Investigation as such.

The President is the Final Clearance Authority for all matters.....the President is free to de-classify anything at anytime for any reason.

That does not mean one would sit down with a Whisky and with a stroke of the Pen de-classify something and there is a formal procedure that is followed to facilitate the President's decision.

Lots of power emanates from the Oval Office in the White House.

[air pig]

If I recall correctly Ministers aren’t DV’d as it is now. Putting aside the practicalities that the length of time taken to go through the process is sometimes longer than your average ministerial tenure, the issue is that one of Parliamentary precedence. By putting them through a formal clearance process it may be seen that a democratically elected Minister is being held to account by administrative process. I remember Penny Mordaunt visiting my last unit and at the time she was the only Minister to hold a security clearance on account of her being Lt (RNR) Morduant.

Of course, I would expect the Security Services to have a reasonably good idea of who is doing what to whom and so can monitor things from the outside as it were. Although it is interesting that Ministers do have a degree of latitude not extended to others. Boris Johnson used to have dual U.K. US nationality and I believe Jeremy Hunt is married to a Chinese lady. As Foreign Secretary he is also has Ministerial oversight of the Intelligence Agencies. If a Serviceman with similar responsibility were also married to a Chinese lady it’s fair to say he wouldn’t be in that job full stop and would probably be out on his ear as a major security risk. Double standards - not half!



The Foreign Sec only has oversight of the SIS (MI6) and GCHQ, the Home Sec has oversight of the Security Service (MI5).All are co-ordinated through Joint Intellegence Committee (JIC) and the Anti Terrorist Committee.

[Easy Street]

Minor but important correction to an earlier poster: MPs are democratically elected; ministers are appointed by the PM, typically (but not exclusively) from the body of MPs. It would be perfectly in order for the PM to take into account any security issues raised by administrators when selecting ministers.

The only ministerial post effectively (pedants: not literally) subject to direct democracy is the PM, and admittedly there is not much administrators can do about a security risk taking that office. A bit of Sir Humphrey-esque foot-dragging and some judicious leaking of discrediting material, perhaps...

[Barksdale Boy]

Melchett01
I can think of one officer, squadron commander, later station commander and who went on to hold a 1 star NATO appointment, who was married to a Chinese lady. As far as I know he never suffered from a DV/PV point of view on account of this.

[Ogre]

Another little tale of applying for vetting, the form I completed asked me to list all offenses I had been charged with, both military and civil. Apart from a civilian parking ticket my military record had been almost spotless but I thought I'd best declare the minor blemishes that my data protection printout listed. I submitted the form and waited for a phone call from the vetting office in case there was anything I'd missed. A couple of weeks passed, and I received a call from a rather well spoken lady who said she had checked my form and there was only one question and could I explain what exactly "failing to conduct a domestic evening to the required standard" was, and why did I do it twice?

I explained the circumstances, there was a short period on silence before "I see, well I can't see that being an issue in this case"

[Pontius Navigator]

Ogre, given that you had to resort to a Data readout I wonder why they don't populate the form from available data and then ask you to verify and amplify. While most of us can remember a broad outline of our lives many, I am sure, can't remember the fine detail.

As far as banking details for instance, I was persuaded to have a go for PPI compensation though I am certain I am not eligible. I duly submitted various credit card details and some time later remembered some more. So far no credit card company has admitted to my having an account with them. That even applies to the company whose card I have used for years and still use.

[Wander00]

On the PPI issue, clearing stuff out prior to a house move I found old mortgage documents, so I went on each mortgage provider web site in turn and filed a PPI claim, whether I recalled being on PPI or not. So far I am £1200 to the good, with a couple of claims pending. Don't give any credence to the sharks who offer to do it for you, very easy to do oneself

[ORAC]

MPs are democratically elected; ministers are appointed by the PM

To be exact, Cabinet ministers are appointed and dismissed by the Queen acting on the advice of the PM. The total number of Cabinet ministers is limited by law, and is currently 21. In formal terms, the Cabinet is a committee of Her Majesty's Privy Council, and all Cabinet members are made Privy Councillors.

The PM can and does appoint numerous other ministers of state, undersecretaries etc - but they aren't cabinet minsters in the formal sense.

Sorry for the digression.

personally I always avoided any post requiring a DV clearance like the plague. It wasn't required for any job i wanted - and meant you could be collared to be, or stand-in for, the crypto custodian and have to deal with all the multiple daily and monthly crypto changes required in the ops room and equipment. No thank you.

[Melchett01]

Melchett01
I can think of one officer, squadron commander, later station commander and who went on to hold a 1 star NATO appointment, who was married to a Chinese lady. As far as I know he never suffered from a DV/PV point of view on account of this.

Interesting, but I suspect a historical case that wouldn’t be permitted today. I know of one NCO in a previous tour whose posting to a sensitive unit was cancelled when it became apparent his Chinese wife meant he wouldn’t get a clearance. It all depends on the roles they are doing. As PN noted, there are secrets and there are secrets. And the Snowden incident has meant things are taken a lot more seriously with far lower risk appetites these days.

[Whenurhappy]

After my FCO interview a couple of years ago when my soul was layed bare, I incautiously asked the vetting officer about her background. She responded simply with “impeccable”.

[Fareastdriver]

who was married to a Chinese lady

Was she ethnic Chinese or a citizen of the Peoples Republic of China? There would be slight difference in outlook.

[sittingstress]

"failing to conduct a domestic evening to the required standard"

As an aside I gleefully declare at every opportunity my master criminal background of being charged and found guilty of, "changing single accommodation without prior permission in order to avoid a bull night." Whilst on my driving course the bull nights were held on Monday nights for the residents of one block and on Tuesday nights for the residents of the other block. I copied the old sweat SAC Gunners (I was an LAC) and just moved my paltry amount of kit and bedding as appropriate. We finally got caught and I was awarded 3 days jankers which I spent sitting about in the fire section.

Not a single spelling error was ever detected in my career :ok:

[Barksdale Boy]

FE Driver

Good point. Definitely ethnic Chinese, but I suspect a resident of Singapore when they met, the timing of which would have been interesting (mid 60s) for obvious reasons. I seem to remember on a detachment to Singapore a couple of years afterwards that such relationships were frowned on then at the very least.

[PapaDolmio]

Not strictly DV related but I worked with a SNCO who had Hungarian parents (escaped during the 56 uprising).
When he did his interviews at the Careers Office prior to joining he was asked the standard question about previous family military service:

Q: So were any of you parents in the military?
A: My Dad and Grandad were both in the Army.
Q: What regiments?
A: Don't know, but my Dad was with the Russians and Grandad was with the Germans.

(Father had done NS pre 56 and Grandad had fought on the Eastern Front).

[Old-Duffer]

I was nominated to be a referee for a chap needing an up market clearance (PV Red Star - springs to mind).

The investigator was an ex-Met police officer and at the end of our meeting he said: 'You seem a decent sort of chap; how is it Sqn Ldr Oldduffer you are still single at 35'? My reply was: "I'm a 'reconditioned' bachelor". I then had to explain that I was divorced and would he like the reference to the case where my (then wife) had 'sought solace elsewhere'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old Duffer

[langleybaston]

Here's a thought which flashed briefly across the brain cell.
Who selects/ appoints and clears the interrogators? To what level are they cleared? They become repositories of incredible amounts of sinful secrets, and each and every one could surely write a lurid book, or become a blackmailer, or defect.
Are they shot when they attempt to retire?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[Whizz Bang]

Here's a thought which flashed briefly across the brain cell.
Who selects/ appoints and clears the interrogators? To what level are they cleared?

Vetting Officers are DV'd - adverts on CS Jobs.

[Pontius Navigator]

Vetting Officers are DV'd - adverts on CS Jobs.
And no doubt helps if they are DV in the first place. Even holding DV with one Service I believe they would need a new DV in another.

As an aside, it was cheaper to renew a PV, even if the holder was destined for a non-PV post or due to retire, than allow it to lapse and get a new clearance later.

Another thing is you were never told your clearance. It was 'probably ' true that if your clearance was for a PV post that your clearance was PV. But you might have been cleared to PV RS but if the job did not require RS then you would not be told that.

On one trip, as we were all in jobs affording TS access, and were escorted by an RAF gp capt, the US allowed us access to a secret bunker without further clearance.

[Slow Biker]

I also knew an airman with a Hungarian background and a surname to match. Years later we met as SNCOs, he then had a very British surname. He explained he had been 'advised'. I cannot be certain but I seem to remember he worked where PV was the norm.
I found being interviewed about a colleague quite difficult. Honest answers, naturally, but it made me think how little I really knew about the guy.

[langleybaston]

I have just finished the Philby bio by MacIntyre.
Astonishing to present day thinking that Philby, Burgess and Maclean were all, in effect, presumed innocent until found guilty despite giving off signals that they were not to be trusted with the price of bus ride. The Establishment at its worst. The attempts at coverups continuing for years after the events were ludicrous and amateurish.
Having now waded through all three biographies I am at least comforted by the fact that their exiles in Russia were basically unhappy.
Blunt is next up for a read. No exile for him.

[Melchett01]

Here's a thought which flashed briefly across the brain cell.
Who selects/ appoints and clears the interrogators? To what level are they cleared? They become repositories of incredible amounts of sinful secrets, and each and every one could surely write a lurid book, or become a blackmailer, or defect.
Are they shot when they attempt to retire?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Anyone can apply for the post - just look up the application form and send it in. If you pass the course you’re in. If I recall the only people that can’t do it are those with a role in the SERE training system where they are responsible for conducting mock interrogations on aircrew going through the system. I was about to crack a joke, but it’s probably in bad taste even for PPrune, so I shall let discretion take over.

[air pig]

I have just finished the Philby bio by MacIntyre.
Astonishing to present day thinking that Philby, Burgess and Maclean were all, in effect, presumed innocent until found guilty despite giving off signals that they were not to be trusted with the price of bus ride. The Establishment at its worst. The attempts at coverups continuing for years after the events were ludicrous and amateurish.
Having now waded through all three biographies I am at least comforted by the fact that their exiles in Russia were basically unhappy.
Blunt is next up for a read. No exile for him.

Don't forget the fifth man, Cairncross. All five of them, in my opinion, should have been charged with treason, just as Amery and Joyce were. They should have faced Pierpoint at 9 o'clock one cold dark morning at Wandworh or Penonville for the ultimate punishment for traitors. Under Elizabth I, they would have found getting dead following their interrogation somewhat prolonged and painful, no happy chat in a convivial atmosphere..They were lucky of they had not been victims of the erstwhile employers as they may have got the reputed Penkovsky treatment.

[ihoharv]

Don't forget the fifth man, Cairncross. All five of them, in my opinion, should have been charged with treason, just as Amery and Joyce were. They should have faced Pierpoint at 9 o'clock one cold dark morning at Wandworh or Penonville for the ultimate punishment for traitors. Under Elizabth I, they would have found getting dead following their interrogation somewhat prolonged and painful, no happy chat in a convivial atmosphere..They were lucky of they had not been victims of the erstwhile employers as they may have got the reputed Penkovsky treatment.

Nice to see Happy Hour is over...

[Whenurhappy]

Don't forget the fifth man, Cairncross. All five of them, in my opinion, should have been charged with treason, just as Amery and Joyce were. They should have faced Pierpoint at 9 o'clock one cold dark morning at Wandworh or Penonville for the ultimate punishment for traitors. Under Elizabth I, they would have found getting dead following their interrogation somewhat prolonged and painful, no happy chat in a convivial atmosphere..They were lucky of they had not been victims of the erstwhile employers as they may have got the reputed Penkovsky treatment.
and Patrick (Paddy) Costello and that Blunt chap.

[langleybaston]

Hanging them as a knee jerk was very attractive, Philby alone was directly responsible for many murders. However, keeping them alive with a very long sentence in a British top security jail [remember Blake?] might have provided dividends in the way of intelligence.
An ailing old drunkard denied drink and his bumboy, with few comforts, might just opt for a Damascene conversion and spill priceless beans. Worth a shot surely.

[hunterboy]

I’ve always admired how the UK used to play the long game in such matters. Now , it does seem like politics are driven by the headlines in the Daily Mail. Whether that is the standard of politician falling , or just the dumbing down of society, I have no idea.

[air pig]

Hanging them as a knee jerk was very attractive, Philby alone was directly responsible for many murders. However, keeping them alive with a very long sentence in a British top security jail [remember Blake?] might have provided dividends in the way of intelligence.
An ailing old drunkard denied drink and his bumboy, with few comforts, might just opt for a Damascene conversion and spill priceless beans. Worth a shot surely.

I suspect their ideology was far toodeeply ingrained in them that they would never change their views.

[air pig]

Nice to see Happy Hour is over...

Until Blair, capital punishment was still available under British law.

[sitigeltfel]

Hanging them as a knee jerk was very attractive, Philby alone was directly responsible for many murders. However, keeping them alive with a very long sentence in a British top security jail [remember Blake?] might have provided dividends in the way of intelligence.
An ailing old drunkard denied drink and his bumboy, with few comforts, might just opt for a Damascene conversion and spill priceless beans. Worth a shot surely.

The Russians would simply arrest and charge some innocent UK citizens on bogus charges, then jail them. After a period of time, a spy swap would take place.

[etudiant]

The security effort seems poorly distributed.
Masses of front line personnel are interrogated and impacted, to little practical benefit, while the most lucrative targets are left wide open or casually scrutinized. It is locking the front door while leaving the back door ajar.
It is no different here in the US unfortunately.
Penetrating the Office of Personnel and also the firm that makes the RSA key tokens gave the attacker the ability to read almost all encrypted US DoD contractor mail as well as the ability to select people most susceptible to recruitment, at minimal cost.

[Secret1]

Some amusing posts :)

[charliegolf]

Until Blair, capital punishment was still available under British law.

But it was dead as a useful statute long before Tony B.Liar

CG

[air pig]

But it was dead as a useful statute long before Tony B.Liar

CG

Then why did we maintain and regulary test a fully functioning execution 'shed' at Wandsworth until that point?

[Pontius Navigator]

Because treason remained an executable offence until1997

[charliegolf]

Obviously I can't 'prove' it, but no government was going to hang anybody for treason. So, I maintain it was a dead statute.

CG

[MPN11]

Hanging statues is a University thing, innit? ;)



Sorry!

[Pontius Navigator]

CG, had we been at war then our attitude to a traitor might have been more vindictive pour encourages les autres.

[langleybaston]

My take on this is that we were indeed at war during the many acts of treason; hot war until 1945, cold until the Wall came down.
We were certainly hanging or shooting spies during the hot war, but it is not treason if you are not a UK citizen. William Joyce was possibly Irish? I will do my homework. Either way, MI5 [sic] in particular would surely have wished to keep the traitors warm. A nice nip of a truth drug in their Horlicks might have worked.

[Four Turbo]

Hope this is not entirely off subject! Attended JCSS early 70s. Senior policeman lectured on dangers to security of drugs. (One spliff and out they said).
At 'Questions' I asked for his view on the many hard drinkers in the bar at any RAF base of the time.
Answer. 'The RAF does not have anyone who drinks to excess!'

[OvertHawk]

My take on this is that we were indeed at war during the many acts of treason; hot war until 1945, cold until the Wall came down.
We were certainly hanging or shooting spies during the hot war, but it is not treason if you are not a UK citizen. William Joyce was possibly Irish? I will do my homework. Either way, MI5 [sic] in particular would surely have wished to keep the traitors warm. A nice nip of a truth drug in their Horlicks might have worked.

Joyce was US born and had emigrated to Ireland. He then came to UK and obtained a British passport (albeit by lying about his background). The possession of this British passport was considered sufficient to earn him a long drop with a sudden stop courtesy of Mr Pierrepoint.

[Whenurhappy]

My take on this is that we were indeed at war during the many acts of treason; hot war until 1945, cold until the Wall came down.
We were certainly hanging or shooting spies during the hot war, but it is not treason if you are not a UK citizen. William Joyce was possibly Irish? I will do my homework. Either way, MI5 [sic] in particular would surely have wished to keep the traitors warm. A nice nip of a truth drug in their Horlicks might have worked.
if you read John Masterman’s official account of the Double Cross system during WWII, spies and traitors were routinely executed. He matter of factly mentions about a captured agent ‘being of no further use, he was executed’. These weren’t I secret, so that the Abwehr and the RHSS (ie Nazi spy-runners) were aware that some of their agents had been captured, therefore the others were still operating. This was true: all German agents were captured and those not executed had been turned and operate for MI5.