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meadowrun
9th Oct 2018, 13:24
Been a few years since I wrote a letter to the editor about seatbelts (total lack of) in buses. That was after a horrific tour bus crash in Quebec. Since then there has been some lip service and some promises about the matter and nothing whatsoever done. Did not realize the bus owners lobby was that powerful. A short while ago we lost a kid's hockey team in a bus crash on the Prairies.

Now the limo. 17 people plus the driver killed. Driver might have been wearing his seatbelt but very likely no one in back was. (nature of the vehicles purpose and a party car)
Two pedestrians killed when the long limo caromed an SUV into them.
Driver had two drug busts including one at a traffic stop and was not properly licensed.
Long limo (18 years old) had failed a state inspection and was not supposed to be on the road.
Owner of limo company is a Pakistani national and an FBI informant.
At this point, no one has any idea of the actual cause of the crash.

Seatbelts might have saved a few.

Gertrude the Wombat
9th Oct 2018, 18:01
Seatbelts might have saved a few.
Why do you think that someone who is in the habit of ignoring laws and regulations would
buy and fit seatbelts, and then
maintain them in proper working condition, and then
require their customers to wear them
just because the law said so?

obgraham
9th Oct 2018, 18:11
A year or two back we were on a UK tour, mostly by bus. On day 1, the driver came aboard and said "everyone has to wear their belts". One or two did. It was never mentioned again. But of course he covered his liability, so that was that.

Simply providing the belts will not necessarily result in compliance.

That said, this sounds like a shady outfit, running unfit vehicles with unlicensed drivers. Obviously they'll be out of business, and it sounds like the owner has absconded.

GordonR_Cape
9th Oct 2018, 18:23
Slightly different emphasis: The road junction was an accident waiting to happen. Stop street at the bottom of a hill, shortly after an off-ramp from a freeway.

The combination of an unsafe vehicle, and an accident hot-spot, together produced a disaster.

Edit: I looked on Google Earth Street View, and there was one single warning sign 100 yards before the intersection.

P.S. Title is incorrect, location was upstate New York, not Long Island.

Saintsman
9th Oct 2018, 18:31
I'm quite happy to wear a seatbelt myself, but where do you stop with requiring them to be worn?

You can have them on a bus, but buses also allow standing. Therefore do you really need one?

You also don't see them on trains.

G-CPTN
9th Oct 2018, 19:31
You can have them on a bus, but buses also allow standing. Therefore do you really need one?
You also don't see them on trains.
'Service' buses that stop/start in urban areas are not required to fit seat belts.
'Long distance' coaches are - but I have never seen or heard of any enforcement to wear them.
It does seem strange that trains aren't fitted with belts (Grayrigg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayrigg_derailment)?).

Locally, buses used for school runs are fitted with seatbelts - there was an outcry after an incident involving scholars.
I don't know whether the pupils wear them.

lomapaseo
9th Oct 2018, 19:34
If the cost of a death and internment wasn't so darn high we wouldn't have laws regarding seatbelts, airbags and/or helments.

more like "let the user beware"

meadowrun
9th Oct 2018, 19:41
Other than city buses here, standing is not allowed.

My thoughts are that seat belts are cheap so install them. People being what they are, will choose to wear them or not. I'm sure lives in the future will be saved by some people fastening up.
Seats might consequently have to be manufactured to a higher spec, but that would be a good thing as well. Once knew of an inter-city bus that had its seats fastened to the bus floor with nails. The whole bus.
Trains? Guess that's up to statistics and long convention. Lot more buses on the roads.

layman
9th Oct 2018, 20:05
In Australia around 3% of people in cars were found not to wear seat belts. Around 30% of road fatalities are people who weren't wearing a seat belt.

Long distance coaches - if inspected, any passenger not wearing pays the $400+ fine.

Mechta
9th Oct 2018, 21:15
...

My thoughts are that seat belts are cheap so install them. People being what they are, will choose to wear them or not. I'm sure lives in the future will be saved by some people fastening up.
Seats might consequently have to be manufactured to a higher spec, but that would be a good thing as well. Once knew of an inter-city bus that had its seats fastened to the bus floor with nails. The whole bus.


Seatbelts maybe cheap, but the cost of making them work properly in a large passenger vehicle isn't. Make the seat attachment too weak, and the seats, with their occupants, go through the windscreen; make them to rigid, and the bits of passenger go either side of the seatbelt. The energy to be absorbed also varies a lot between a full and an empty vehicle.

Limos tend to have sideways facing seats. How do you make an effective sideways facing seatbelt? The sickening thing in this case, if the reports are to believed, is that if the group killed had got what they actually asked for, it would have been a minibus with forward facing seats and, presumably, seatbelts.

Pappa Smurf
10th Oct 2018, 00:20
Seat belts or not,it still seems strange the whole lot were killed.Usually a few escape death but are in a bad way

lomapaseo
10th Oct 2018, 00:26
Seat belts or not,it still seems strange the whole lot were killed.Usually a few escape death but are in a bad way

agree

Things don't add up

do the windows open in the passenger compartment ?

Hydromet
10th Oct 2018, 00:54
A year or two back we were on a UK tour, mostly by bus. On day 1, the driver came aboard and said "everyone has to wear their belts". One or two did. It was never mentioned again. But of course he covered his liability, so that was that.

Interesting. I recently did a mini bus tour in the UK, Channel Islands and France, and the driver was quite conscientious about ensuring all seat belts were being used, every time we got in the bus.
He was no demagogue and very easygoing about everything else. A few years ago on a bus tour here in Oz, the driver & guide were the same - I believe they can cop a pretty big fine if a pax is caught unbelted.

mickjoebill
10th Oct 2018, 03:42
agree

Things don't add up

do the windows open in the passenger compartment ?

Apparently the collision with the SUV by the very heavy limo didn’t absorb much energy.
It would have been an abrupt full stop into the bank. Checkout the aftermath there was little disruption to the earthen bank.

Fifteen unrestrained 70kg masses hitting the steel bulkhead dividing driver and passenger compartment. Given the dip into the ditch the first point of impact for those toward the rear would have been heads hitting the roof.

A 10Mph side impact of your temple hitting a B pillar can to be fatal.

Due to the massive steel box sections forming the chassis, there was very little crumple zone available to absorb the energy. Even if they had been wearing seatbelts it would have been a brutal deacceleration, with the heads of those seated at 90 degrees probably hitting the uncushionef interior or the heads of other passengers.

Crash test of a limo with a fraction of the number of passengers..
https://youtu.be/NplHRuNL0R4

Consider the aftermath and spare a thought for the first responders.

mjb

nonsense
10th Oct 2018, 04:42
Why do you think that someone who is in the habit of ignoring laws and regulations would

buy and fit seatbelts, and then
maintain them in proper working condition, and then
require their customers to wear them

just because the law said so?

In the land of the wombats we seem to be able to regulate and inspect commercial passenger vehicles annually plus random inspections, and to remove vehicles which do not comply.

pattern_is_full
10th Oct 2018, 04:44
Good stuff, mjb.

This "limo" was itself a stretched SUV - tall, wide, heavy. Take mjb's image above and add .3 meters/a foot to the cab height. Possibly with "in the round" bench seats around the interior walls, not in rows. Lots of empty space for pax to fly through.

Pictures and video of the vehicle being recovered here (local TV coverage): https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/10/09/limo-crash-victims-1000-candlelight-vigil-park/

As OP said, failed an inspection recently and was not legal to use - I believe it was a last-minute replacement for a different limo with mx problems of its own.

Still processing exactly what in the H*ll happened here, but an ugly situation from several different angles.

mickjoebill
10th Oct 2018, 10:56
https://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed.ht (https://www.angio.net/personal/climb/speed.html)

A 60 mph impact is close to the impact of falling from a height of 40 meters.

Still processing exactly what in the H*ll happened here,

I agree that chaos theory should have delivered at least one survivor...

mjb

Icare9
10th Oct 2018, 14:33
Recent local accident with a Jack the lad with a BMW M3 charging along single lane each direction road with 60 mph limit. Overtakes long queue of cars behind 40 mph motorhome.
Decides not to wait and proceeds to overtake all 4 vehicles behind the motorhome, but lead car also begins an overtake.
In police officers estimation the M3 was travelling in excess of 75 mph, when he swerved to avoid the legit overtaker (he came from miles back at warp speed) lost control and swerved into the motor home, severely injuring both and his wreck proceeded to smash into trees and came to a stop some 700 yards further on.....
No seatbelt, so flung out of passenger window and received fatal injuries.
Unfortunately not a Darwin as had a young kid by a girlfriend.

The accident blocked the main road for over 4 hours, all because someone decided his fast car gave him the right to pass slower traffic when HE decided he would, whether safe or not..
I was in the traffic and saw him belt by and thought that was an accident waiting to happen - when it did.

lomapaseo
10th Oct 2018, 14:39
Mickjoebill

Fifteen unrestrained 70kg masses hitting the steel bulkhead dividing driver and passenger compartment. Given the dip into the ditch the first point of impact for those toward the rear would have been heads hitting the roof.

No arguments it would be a fatal crash

However, it's the totality that raises my questions. Admittedly most of my experience is with aircraft crashes, but given that the compartment survives I would not expect 100% fatals from these G-loads of body against body

RatherBeFlying
10th Oct 2018, 16:34
Well Ic9, in a perfect world drivers would use anticipation and expeditiously overtake slow movers at the first opportunity to minimize queue build up. Until that time they would maintain a minimum 2 second interval behind.

And of course would check behind and signal before changing lanes:=

Even better would be slow movers pulling over when a queue builds up, as I have done many times when restricted in speed.

Back to everyday reality, we have a mix of drivers who anticipate, and those who require an indeterminate number of seconds to realise that they are in a passing zone sufficiently clear of oncoming traffic, then suddenly change lanes without looking or signaling:eek:

We also have drivers who will stay behind until a passing lane comes up.

rotornut
10th Oct 2018, 17:55
Limo owner's son arrested: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/10/us/new-york-limo-crash/index.html

Gertrude the Wombat
10th Oct 2018, 18:25
In the land of the wombats we seem to be able to regulate and inspect commercial passenger vehicles annually
The ones you can find. Not every cowboy is going to register the fact that they operate a commercial passenger vehicle. If you can afford to pay regulatory staff to scan the online ads looking for the unregistered cowboys then great, and I wish we all could. Plus, in this case, aren't there suggestions that it was registered, and it was inspected, and it failed the inspection, and it was used anyway?

lomapaseo
10th Oct 2018, 20:35
So it failed an inspection.

How do we know whether it was put right or not?

And how do we know that there is a failure of the vehicle that caused the crash?

so many accusations and so little facts is that the way of the media today?

meadowrun
10th Oct 2018, 21:19
"Media" is reporting that it was illegally on the road having failed that inspection.
The owner's son is charged with criminally negligent homicide (x 20 ?).
That's no light weight charge.
There is however, still no word on the precise cause.

tdracer
10th Oct 2018, 22:05
Slightly different emphasis: The road junction was an accident waiting to happen. Stop street at the bottom of a hill, shortly after an off-ramp from a freeway.

The combination of an unsafe vehicle, and an accident hot-spot, together produced a disaster.


Really? Most freeways are elevated relative to the surrounding terrain, so off-ramps are typically down hill, with a stop sign or traffic signal where it joins the other road. If that's an accident waiting to happen, then the majority of freeway off-ramps would qualify.
That being said, a relatively large, heavy vehicle going at highway speeds needs good brakes to stop, especially going down hill (and heavily loaded - 18 passengers is going to be something like 1.5 to 2 tons just of payload). If those brakes where deficient in some way - driving it at highway speeds is an accident looking for a place to happen...

I very nearly learned this the hard way while in college. I had a 67 Pontiac - a 2+ ton car with rather small drum brakes and a two speed automatic trani. We were coming back from skiing - five people plus ski equipment - exiting Interstate 70 approaching Denver, a downhill exit ramp with a stop sign at the bottom, then short segment of 50 mph road followed by another downhill stop sign. Approaching the second stop sign, the lady sitting shotgun exclaimed "There's a stop sign!" - I simply responded "I know, I'm trying" - I had both feet on the brake pedal pushing as hard as I could as we rolled through the stop sign still going ~10 mph! Fortunately no oncoming traffic... Lesson learned - after that I was careful to conserve the brakes when driving that car, especially in the mountains (itself rather tricky with a 2 speed transmission).

tdracer
10th Oct 2018, 22:12
So it failed an inspection.

How do we know whether it was put right or not?

And how do we know that there is a failure of the vehicle that caused the crash?

so many accusations and so little facts is that the way of the media today?

Loma - radio today is reporting that the company claims the problems were 'corrected' before the limo was returned to service. Of course, the 'repairwork' may have been what's referred to in the business as "a wall job" - customer brings the car in - you go park it against the wall for a couple days - customer comes back and you return the car with a sizeable bill for services that were never rendered.:=
I don't think the car dealership I worked at way back when ever did 'wall jobs' but I knew of places that did.

If this accident was the result of a 'wall job' repair, the criminal charges are just getting started (not to mention the lawsuits)...

Pappa Smurf
10th Oct 2018, 22:34
Tdracer. You must have had my Pontiac I had when in Canada once lol

RatherBeFlying
10th Oct 2018, 23:09
Total brake failure is rare these days, but there's news reports that the brakes had been worked on. It would be interesting to find if the front disks had been upgraded with the stretch.

Reportedly the driver also drove semis and dump trucks and was conscientious.

Medical event?

I also have memories of the family mid 60s Pontiac with drum brakes and two speed automatic, no seat belts. It's a wonder so many survived:uhoh:

Pappa Smurf
10th Oct 2018, 23:20
One of passengers texed before crash "vehicle having engine trouble and making us deaf" .To me,that sounds like the exhaust system had come apart,and maybe everyone was affected by Carbon Monoxide...Could have already been dead before crash.Driver in his forewood section probably last to get affected,then drowsiness finally got to him..
My theory anyway.

ExSp33db1rd
10th Oct 2018, 23:26
Well Ic9, in a perfect world drivers would use anticipation and expeditiously overtake slow movers at the first opportunity to minimize queue build up.

As learned as a child enduring holiday traffic to Devon and Cornwall .. refrain ... " It's number 2 that starts the queue, Yah! Boo! to number 2 "

Yesterday I was about number 6 in a line maintaining the 100 km limit without problem, all - including myself - properly spaced, and nobody causing any concern, when I was rapidly overtaken by an Audi who filled the space between me and and the vehicle in front just before the approaching blind bend. I used my horn, and lights, but what's the use, we have a Road Patrol number to ring, but that would have meant my stopping to use the phone, and if I'd bothered later it would be too late. I did record the reg. number tho' in case I learned of an accident in the area later in the day.

krismiler
11th Oct 2018, 00:01
When wearing a seat belt, always make sure it’s not twisted and the belt lies flat all the way. A twist will prevent it from stretching properly as it absorbs energy in an accident.

An 18 year old car is very unlikely to have airbags fitted, which probably wouldn’t have been much use anyway with the passengers sitting sideways. Other modern safety features such as ABS brakes and traction control would probably not be fitted either.

The experience of poster #25 with the Pontiac sounds like “brake fade” which is caused by the brake fluid absorbing water over time, during a long descent the brakes build up considerable heat which turns the water into steam which compresses and may cause the brake pedal to go all the way to the floor. Never leave a container of brake fluid open as it absorbs water from the air like a sponge and make sure it’s changed at the specified intervals. If you ever experience brake fade, pump the pedal up and down which should restore some braking, then pull of the road and allow the brakes to cool and get the fluid changed ASAP.

I’m posting a link to a website with some good articles on safety and cars in general.
https://dogandlemon.com/articles

tdracer
11th Oct 2018, 00:54
Krismiler - have much experience with drum brakes? You don't need water logged or even boiling brake fluid - they simply get too hot to function (the drum get so hot it looses structural integrity so you can't maintain pressure with the pads - also tends to result in warped drums after they cool back down).
Disc brakes are more likely to have issues with boiling brake fluid since they can operate at much higher temperatures and still be effective relative to drum brakes - water will make it worse, but I've boiled the brake fluid in my race car when the fluid was nice and fresh - all it took was a problem with the front brakes which lead to an overload of the rear brakes.
There is a good reason you seldom find drum brakes on modern vehicles.

krismiler
11th Oct 2018, 01:21
I have discs on the front and drums on the rear of my current small hatchback, I recently experienced brake fade on a long winding road descending down a mountain range. Back in 1980 the family car was a 1970s vintage VW Beetle with drums all around which was mostly used for shorter journeys so temperatures weren’t a problem.

Hopefully the information is useful to someone driving a modern car as I found pumping the pedal helped and a fluid change is on the list for the next service.

obgraham
11th Oct 2018, 02:22
As one who drives s heavy RV at times, much of it in mountainous country, it amazes me how many drivers ride their brakes all the way down a long hill. Sure way to get brake failure.

Speed control and engine braking, with judicious use of the brakes, is the safe way down that hill.

RatherBeFlying
11th Oct 2018, 02:59
My understanding of drum brake fade is that the drum expands more with temperature than the shoe - reducing the contact surface.

nonsense
11th Oct 2018, 07:36
When wearing a seat belt, always make sure it’s not twisted and the belt lies flat all the way. A twist will prevent it from stretching properly as it absorbs energy in an accident.
Pretensioners are designed to reduce stretch of seatbelts; stretch is not good, and a half turn or two of twist won't make any difference. It will however reduce the bearing area on the human body, increasing the tendency to damage human flesh.An 18 year old car is very unlikely to have airbags fitted, which probably wouldn’t have been much use anyway with the passengers sitting sideways. Other modern safety features such as ABS brakes and traction control would probably not be fitted either.
We were introducing airbags for drivers and front passengers into locally manufactured cars in Australia between 1990 and 1995. By 2000, very few new cars did not have airbags. On the other hand, a stretched vehicle with sideways and rear facing seating, even today, is unlikely to have airbags behind the B pillars.

The experience of poster #25 with the Pontiac sounds like “brake fade” which is caused by the brake fluid absorbing water over time, during a long descent the brakes build up considerable heat which turns the water into steam which compresses and may cause the brake pedal to go all the way to the floor.
Contaminated brake fluid can boil at a lower temperature, causing a loss of pedal height and braking. This is an entirely different mechanism of failure to brake fade, which occurs when the reduced coefficient of friction of pads on disks (or shoes on drums) drops dramatically at very high temperatures.
Boiled brakes results in a soft pedal which may go to the floor, faded brakes result in a hard pedal which feels as if it does nothing and requires more force than usual.

If you ever experience brake fade, pump the pedal up and down which should restore some braking, then pull of the road and allow the brakes to cool and get the fluid changed ASAP.

Ahhhh... no.
Use whatever measures are available, gears, faded brakes, gradient (if you have any choice) to bring the vehicle to a stop. Pumping won't help a normal pedal height with reduced effectiveness.

In Australia, 20-25 years ago we were barrier testing for survivability of properly belted occupants at up to 48kph.
It's hardly surprising 15 unrestrained people in a long open rigid vehicle meeting an embankment at 60mph (96kph, twice the velocity and four times the kinetic energy) all died.

Buses (and trains) rarely stop as abruptly as cars, since they are usually heavier than what they hit. Sadly limousines tend to end up being (legally) treated as a type of bus, by virtue of passenger numbers.

Ancient Mariner
11th Oct 2018, 08:59
A class mate back in the day bought my '57 Hillman Minx which leaked brake fluid at a steady rate, poor student used water as brake fluid, worked at the speeds the Minx managed.
Just had a very bad accident here in Norway. A '59 Cadillac convertible going down the "Svineroi", a 7 km long hill with an elevation difference of 700 m and hairpin turns galore lost its brakes on the last turn and crashed into the cliff wall. Drums all around, five people killed.
Per

krismiler
11th Oct 2018, 09:19
A small amount of stretch in a seatbelt is necessary otherwise it will cut into you too hard, too much stretch and you will hit the interior. The belt needs to be flat and untwisted to work correctly, this doesn't take much effort to get right.

My present vehicle made in 2005 has no airbags, around that time it wasn't standard, thankfully today, what was previously optional or limited to higher end models has filtered through to the bread and butter range.

There wouldn't be many cars with all drum brakes sold new in developed countries, most would have discs at the front at least.

Obviously in a serious situation you would do whatever you needed to stop safely, I would pump the pedal to see if that works and move onto other methods quickly if it didn't.

cattletruck
11th Oct 2018, 10:16
One of passengers texed before crash "vehicle having engine trouble and making us deaf"
Could the engine have given up, brake boost lost, fully laden vehicle could not stop in time?

DType
11th Oct 2018, 11:00
Brake fade!!
Not relevant, but may amuse you:-
Had been climbing and in a rush to get the family home, dived into the car with boots on but unlaced (don't ask me why).
Rushed steeply downhill to a sharp corner.
Total right leg paralysis, couldn't move it to the brake pedal.
Instead of using left leg, just grabbed the handbrake, which worked on the front wheels (Saab 99) and skidded to a halt.
Found the undone and trailing laces of my right boot had jammed in the closed door, thus limiting leftwards movement.
FType was not amused.

chuks
11th Oct 2018, 11:33
Ah, yes ... brain fade, not brake fade. I once ran an old Buick through the back of an even older garage in somewhat that way.

Relax, guys. Let the NTSB complete its investigation, find out whatever they can about why the accident happened, and take it from there. At this point it could be anything from driver error to mechanical failure.

More modern cars have a recording function in the engine control chip. (This was how they figured out what happened to Jörg Haider in Austria when he had a fatal crash in his VW Phaeton. Haider was a far-right, high-ranking Austrian politician whom a few people must have wanted dead, so that it was good that the chip showed he'd been speeding on a foggy mountain road, after more than a few drinks; it turned out to be a simple accident, not some sort of targeted killing.) This vehicle might have something like that to show whether the driver had at least got off the accelerator.

It's interesting that nobody speaks of having heard screeching tires, and that there has been no mention of skid marks either. All we have been told about is one big bang.

krismiler
11th Oct 2018, 13:21
Recorders similar to aircraft black boxes are available for cars, at the moment the most popular use seems to be in reducing insurance premiums by having one fitted to prove you drive in sensible manner. Younger drivers may find it difficult to obtain insurance at an affordable price without one.

Every new car sold in the US from 01 Sept 2014 has to have a data recorder fitted.

While the first-generation event data recorders did little more than track whether or not the car's airbags deployed, recording and sensor technologies have become smaller and much more powerful. The highway authorities have mandated that every new recorder must track 15 variables.

The information includes vehicle speed, throttle position, airbag deployment times, whether the brakes were applied, if seatbelts were worn, engine speed, steering angles and more. Manufacturers may also have up to 30 additional data points if they want, excluding, they say, GPS location, video and audio. Also, a black box only stores information for 20 seconds around the crash.

The legal side of things is still playing catch up regarding who can access the data and in what circumstances.

Its likely these recorders will become more widespread outside of the USA, possibly becoming mandatory like a tacograph is for a lorry.

A dash cam is a cheap and easy alternative for an existing car but the question of having your own recording used against you in the event of an at fault accident comes into question.

aerobelly
11th Oct 2018, 18:32
My understanding of drum brake fade is that the drum expands more with temperature than the shoe - reducing the contact surface.

Sorry, no. The lining material (also pads for disk brakes) has a temperature range within which it is effective. In the bad days of all drums on fairly powerful US cars the range was specified to suit low speeds for instant response and therefore cold brakes, with the result that European magazines sometimes reported that it was not possible to stop the car from its top speed because the material went above its temperature range and faded. Better specified sporting vehicles would have materials that were not great when cold but could actually stop the car, perhaps even twice. Materials used for competition were totally useless when cold {*} but could last many laps of a race circuit while stinking hot and sometimes smoking. All of this is different to "green fade" which can affect most materials and is volatiles burning off when the brake materials are new.

I had two personal interests in this subject, first thirty years racing and rallying cars as an amateur, and secondly as a designer on the drawing-board at Girling for a while.

{*} The famous DS11 and VG95 combination :ok:

'a

DType
11th Oct 2018, 21:52
Jaguar had an interesting solution to brake fade - two trailing (instead of two leading) shoes in the front brakes. This generated a negative self servo effect, so as the brakes faded the negative effect reduced and the brakes almost still worked, maybe. Obviously required the addition of a vacuum servo, and must have been quite exciting in reverse!!

krismiler
12th Oct 2018, 01:41
Didn’t drum brakes also have a “self servo” effect where the leading shoe was pulled towards the drum by the rotation and reduced the pedal pressure required ? My AA” Book of the Car” went missing years ago.

DType
12th Oct 2018, 08:23
Yes, but that gave a double whammy, when the friction decayed with rising temperature, so did the self servo effect, hence the Jaguar "solution".

tescoapp
12th Oct 2018, 08:58
There is a video which was never publicly released of a train crashs and the resultant effects in a train carriage from the 70/80's. They wouldn't be allowed to do it these days, things would be nice and clean with very well engineered dummies with calibrated accelerometers and won't involve pigs. There was a test planned for 60mph but they gave up at 30mph

Its the only thing watching in engineering that had a physical effect on me. And that's someone that was exposed to the ties going into lathes and people shorting 400V mains supplies with wedding rings safety videos at regular intervals which is also now banned I believe. I avoided going on a train for quiet a few years after seeing it. I might add that due to these tests train carriage design has come on leaps and bounds for safety.

I suspect they were removing the people in the back with a shovel into bins and then sorting out the bits later if it went in the ditch anything more than 20mph.

aerobelly
12th Oct 2018, 19:03
Didn’t drum brakes also have a “self servo” effect where the leading shoe was pulled towards the drum by the rotation and reduced the pedal pressure required ? My AA” Book of the Car” went missing years ago.


The cheapest arrangement (very important to car manufacturers!) was to have one double-ended hydraulic cylinder and one double-ended adjuster giving one leading and one trailing shoe. Yes, the leading shoe would have a self-servo effect. More expensive would be two combination cylinder/adjusters which could be set up as two leading shoes, or possibly two trailing shoes as DType suggests. I can see why Jaguar were early adopters of discs all round :(

There is a further complication in the shape of the contact point of the shoe with cylinder or adjuster which involved a rather long calculation in the slide-rule days. I once had the Girling notes on that shape but haven't seen them for 40 years. For rallying it was popular on Minis to have different grades of lining for the leading and trailing shoes -- hot-range for leading and cool-range for trailing. That way there was some braking available in reverse or for hand-brake turns.

'a

krismiler
13th Oct 2018, 03:20
Thanks for the info, I had only come across the double ended hydraulic cylinder type and thought they were all like that. I understand drums work better than discs when used as a parking brake and as they work more progressively there is less danger of locking the wheels, making them highly suitable as rear brakes. These two reasons probably explain why they’re still in use today and haven’t gone the way of the carburettor.

Ancient Mariner
13th Oct 2018, 07:07
Drums are cheaper than discs, hence found in cheaper cars.
For all its benefits, rear discs, electrical parking brakes and salted roads is a very bad combo.
Just had my car returned from service and was advised to perform some real agressive braking to remove rust. Too bad when the discs are hardly worn. Looking forward to surprise wife. :E
Per

Fareastdriver
13th Oct 2018, 08:34
More expensive would be two combination cylinder/adjusters which could be set up as two leading shoes

My old 70s Mini had twin leaders on the front and lead/lag on the back. They required adjusting every 1,000 mile service so making sure they wouldn't seize through lack of exercise and/or WD 40 was quite important.

DType
13th Oct 2018, 11:32
An interesting snag with the self servo effect of leading shoes was that when cold the brakes could grab and lock. Had a VERY interesting episode with an errant cat/locked front brakes/hence ineffective steering/left turning road/high speed/night time. But I guess most people thought I had just "frozen" on the brake pedal. Maybe I should have warmed the brakes before winding it up on the (not quite) deserted road. Hindsight is 20/20.

aerobelly
13th Oct 2018, 18:55
Just had my car returned from service and was advised to perform some real agressive braking to remove rust. Too bad when the discs are hardly worn. Looking forward to surprise wife. :E
Per

Have a good divorce lawyer's number on speed-dial first. In my experience most people who have not driven cars in competition have no idea how hard it is possible to brake in good conditions. And an exaggerated idea of how hard is possible to brake in poor conditions :eek:

'a

Ancient Mariner
13th Oct 2018, 19:10
Have a good divorce lawyer's number on speed-dial first. In my experience most people who have not driven cars in competition have no idea how hard it is possible to brake in good conditions. And an exaggerated idea of how hard is possible to brake in poor conditions :eek:

'a
I'm in the habit of testing my cars brakes in good conditions, and more importantly on snow and ice. In winter, conditions changes so quickly here that I very much like to know how my car behave if need arises (read, I overestimated my driving skills).
I'll try to avoid the divorce lawyer.;)
Per

flash8
13th Oct 2018, 19:24
State Police Maj. Robert Patnaude said authorities have located the limo company owner, Shahed Hussain, who is currently in Pakistan.Don't expect Mr Hussain back in the US anytime soon.

aerobelly
13th Oct 2018, 19:34
I understand drums work better than discs when used as a parking brake
Yes, ask any owner of a 1950s/60s Lotus with discs all round what they have do to get through the annual roadworthiness test. My current 1980s Lotus has medium-sized drums inside the large ventilated rear discs for the hand/parking brake. And I regularly pull the handbrake on at moderate speeds to clean the drum surfaces.


and as they work more progressively there is less danger of locking the wheels, making them highly suitable as rear brakes.
Sorry again, decent discs are more progressive than decent drums. The locking problem is one of vehicle load and road grip -- and driver reaction. At a guess I'd say that 90% of "normal" drivers freeze when either end locks or slides. 9% can deal with a front lock and 1% can deal with the rear letting go. Higher grip means more braking effect can be achieved biased to the front, lower grip requires more to the back. Most unstable is for the rear to let go, so the "solution" is to hobble the rear brakes and sacrifice low-grip braking. Better in my opinion would be part of the normal driving test to be on a skid-pan before getting a licence, and regular followup checks. Meh, fat chance!

It gets more complicated on two wheels because of the rider's extra options of moving about -- and greater vulnerability. But perhaps that's for another time.

'a

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Oct 2018, 20:00
It gets more complicated on two wheels because of the rider's extra options of moving about -- and greater vulnerability. But perhaps that's for another time.
Once approached a corner too fast, and realised that I wasn't going to get round it, given the quantity of gravel on the road, without something horrible happening such as the back wheel sliding out from under me. The other option was to keep straight ahead, and brake, and hope that I stopped before hitting the brick wall (don't forget the gravel, which didn't help braking much more than it helped cornering). I stopped before hitting the wall. This was a long time ago - these days I'd have a word with the council, there shouldn't be that much gravel on a main-ish road in the middle of Oxford FFS.

meadowrun
13th Oct 2018, 20:03
authorities have located the limo company owner, Shahed Hussain, who is currently in Pakistan.

The accident was on the 6th. A whole week ago. Plenty of time for a legitimate, good faith business owner to get back from Karachi to work with authorities, apologize as best he could to the families of the Twenty people killed and see his criminally charged son.

Maybe there's problem with flights out of Pakistan..

aerobelly
13th Oct 2018, 20:09
I'm in the habit of testing my cars brakes in good conditions, and more importantly on snow and ice.
Per
If your wife goes with you on those tests then fine. If not, not.

Many years ago I was required to entertain my company President + Board Chairman of our owners on a Sunday. We knew each other from previous employment and had a similar attitude to being entertained. Over brunch I asked how much entertainment he needed. He wanted to know what my alternative plan would be. Oh, my car is new, still on summer tires (sic), and we have 6 inches of snow on the ground for the first time since I got it. I would go and throw it around a parking lot of our USA-wide resellers that I knew would be deserted on a Sunday (I was 6-7 days a week there...) and check if I needed to buy winter wheels and tyres.

He came with me. Said nothing, but on my next visit to our Corporate HQ on the other side of the Atlantic he had had swapped his company Lancia for an Audi same model as mine. My own Audi did quite well racing on frozen lakes in New Hampshire with its summer tyres ;)

'a

mickjoebill
14th Oct 2018, 18:58
Correct me if I am wrong, there I appears to be no compartmentalised trunk space with a steel bulk head. If carried, I wonder if a poorly secured, very heavy spare tyre and jack along with other detritus that finds its way into the back of a little used vehicle, was a contributing factors to the trauma suffered by passengers?

mjb

mickjoebill
18th Oct 2018, 01:30
Compelation of accidents with unrestrained passengers

https://www.facebook.com/irisha.info/videos/586575901707474/

mjb

eal401
18th Oct 2018, 07:46
when I was rapidly overtaken by an Audi who filled the space between me and and the vehicle in front just before the approaching blind bend. I used my horn, and lights, but what's the use,

It is always the Audis and BMWs isn't it? "What's the use?" - None, as an Audi driver, he/she would hold you at fault for everything. They (and BMW drivers) are all arrogant morons.

chuks
18th Oct 2018, 13:38
No it is not.

Knobheads drive all different sorts of cars. I have seen terrible driving done by guys in big luxury cars, and in mid-size premium cars, but also in little crap-boxes, and do not get me started about White Van Man. Anyway, this accident featured a Ford stretch SUV, not a BMW or Audi, so that I fail to see your point.

Ancient Mariner
18th Oct 2018, 14:33
No it is not.

Knobheads drive all different sorts of cars. I have seen terrible driving done by guys in big luxury cars, and in mid-size premium cars, but also in little crap-boxes, and do not get me started about White Van Man. Anyway, this accident featured a Ford stretch SUV, not a BMW or Audi, so that I fail to see your point.
Here we call it the Janteloven. You should not think you are better than me, (or have a better/faster/more expensive car then me), because if you do you are a _ _ _ _ _, fill in the blanks.
Per

chuks
18th Oct 2018, 15:58
I had an invitation to go on a little boat on a little cruise, overnight on Biscayne Bay, no big thing. I was waiting on the dock, looking rather working class since I had a duffel bag full of fresh laundry by my side, meant for my boating friends who'd been out for a week.

I just stood there on the dock in Coconut Grove, waiting for Moon Lady to show up, on Friday afternoon. (This was my pay-back for a week of running around Florida collecting checks with a Twin Bonanza for a big bank, filling in for my friend who wanted to go boating instead.)

Then, along came a cracker (like a redneck but more North Florida in this case). I said "Howdy," and he said "Howdy," and then we had the usual chat, until he veered off into extended bitching about all them rich folks and their goddam boats and ain't it a shame how the working man gets it in the neck and can't catch a break, and so on. I guess he took me for a laundryman or something.

I just went along with that, up to a point, but then came the putt-putt-putt sound of the little auxiliary on the little steel-hull double-ender. My yacht had arrived!

I went from Brother in Arms to Class Enemy, just like that!