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pax britanica
8th Oct 2018, 10:23
Watching the Jeremy Vine show this am a subject was should we be scared of Russia , complete with an interesting character called Bill Browder who probably does have reason to be afraid of Russia but probably greater reason to fear the IRS.

It seems to em that all governments like to ahve a visible enemy, especially in times of stress, so putting the Russians with their stereotypical reputation as the bad guys (and girls) in a thousand films and stories is a pretty easy target.

But then what reason do the Russians have to direct the so called Cyber threat' against certain countries . Is it credible that the country that gave us the internet, Google, Facebook, Microsoft etc isnt vastly more advanced in such things and when does surveillance blur into hacking or an attempt to secure information become a cyber attack. So sdo the Russians do these things to- attack our digital infrastructure and and demonstrate they will and can fight back -deterrence to use a cold ware word surely the Russians to a degree want a prosperous Europe because they can sell their rather limited economies basic products . oil,gas, raw materials to it. And there are numerous wealthy Russians in the west who one supposes are valued clients of City institutions

The West is hardly ignorant or unskilled in such mater s as demonstrated by various high profile leaks , Snowden and Wikileaks etc. And vast amounts of data are trawled daily 'in support of the fight against terrorism' but does that really preclude schemes that started with projects like the Berlin tunnels , the secret submarine 'bells' missions the Five Eyes projects etc from not having an occasional peek in Russia's direction.

They have been accused of trying to influence elections- something we in Britain have never ever even thought about doing, and which for decades US did all across Latin America

So do the Russians, we cannot call them Reds anymore since they are more right wing than Europe if not the US (and they see their likely military enemy as China not the west) really constitute an enemy or are they just looking out for themselves which most nations try to do

ORAC
8th Oct 2018, 11:37
What a farrago of nonsense. Inventing something does not mean you keep a lead in its development - and particularly not in means to attack and destroy it. And I suggest you read Russian defence policy before stating they see China, not the west, as their enemy. See the link below, section II, especially paragraph 12.....

https://rusemb.org.uk/press/2029

”12. The main external military risks are:

a) build-up of the power potential of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and vesting NATO with global functions carried out in violation of the rules of international law, bringing the military infrastructure of NATO member countries near the borders of the Russian Federation, including by further expansion of the alliance........

VP959
8th Oct 2018, 12:09
The interesting thing is really that Russia seems to believe that NATO poses a threat and does not want to see any state on its border joining NATO if it can help it.

Looked at logically this seems perverse - NATO isn't a threat to the Russian Federation itself at all, and never has been, at least since the collapse of the Soviet Union. I believe that the government of the RF have made it seem that NATO is a threat, to the population of the RF, for reasons that have nothing to do with any possible threat to it as a state. Russia wishes to continue to work with, and manipulate, other states, for its own political and economic reasons, and sees NATO as a threat to those expansionist policies, but rather than openly state this it dresses it up as if NATO is about to launch a pre-emptive attack on Russia itself.

I think the other serious question we need to ask is why Russia is engaged in a serious cyber warfare campaign in so many areas. What does Russia really gain by hacking into WADA, or allegedly interfering in elections? I can understand Russia wanting to try and obtain data from the OPCW, as they would be keen to know the classified details of OPCW investigations into the use of CW in Syria, as well as here in the UK, but, by getting caught in the act they have rather suggested that they may have been involved in the use of CW, probably the opposite of what they intended.

Kerosene Kraut
8th Oct 2018, 12:42
We should neither be scared nor naive. The post cold war honeymoon is over.

Trossie
8th Oct 2018, 12:50
When 'Yuri Russian' (or whatever their equivalent of 'Johnny English' is!) is a bit more real and works for someone who has nukes, there might be good reason for concern!

lomapaseo
8th Oct 2018, 13:05
I thought the original fear of Russia was its tanks and their ability to over run the EU and a weak NATO.

The thorny issue today is the balance of missiles vs defense. between the US and Russia

FakePilot
8th Oct 2018, 13:05
I mean, who's worried? There is no precedent for a broke, has been, European country to suddenly endanger the whole continent.

ORAC
8th Oct 2018, 13:10
They said that about the Weimar Republic...

Kerosene Kraut
8th Oct 2018, 13:17
We should better guard the baltic states from little green men after the Crimea experience. They would be next without our support. Good to have the US ready to help.

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 13:27
The interesting thing is really that Russia seems to believe that NATO poses a threat and does not want to see any state on its border joining NATO if it can help it.

Looked at logically this seems perverse - NATO isn't a threat to the Russian Federation itself at all, and never has been, at least since the collapse of the Soviet Union. I believe that the government of the RF have made it seem that NATO is a threat, to the population of the RF, for reasons that have nothing to do with any possible threat to it as a state. Russia wishes to continue to work with, and manipulate, other states, for its own political and economic reasons, and sees NATO as a threat to those expansionist policies, but rather than openly state this it dresses it up as if NATO is about to launch a pre-emptive attack on Russia itself..

Russia has been invaded by the West 3 times in 100 years...............
WW1
Russian Civil War
WW2

The sum total of people who have died as a result of that is 30 Million plus dead ............... irrespective of who killed them.

Now if you are to judge history as the starting element would you not have a similar view that West will do so again ?

Actions of West since WW2 has shown a complete willingness to Invade and Destroy countrys, irrespective of the
casualties on the people.................. people question are we next if we oppose NATO (i.e. US policy).

USSR is dead, it died almost 30 years ago.

NATO's existence in its set up was as a counter to Warsaw pact, when Warsaw Pact ceased to be then NATO's existence as a counter weight should have ceased.
Instead of pulling back it sought to expand right up to Russian borders, irrespective of a US President's word.

Now Russians believed word of US President that it would not expand eastwards, but since then numerous US Politicians have said either
"It wasn't his word",
"US not committed to whatever a previous President said",
"It wasn't a real commitment and Russians knew this"
So basically left with a "You cannot trust United States to keep to its word" in the eyes of Russians.

Russian did what it said it would, pulled Russian troops out of countrys, pulled them away from its borders yet again and again it gets
labelled as an enemy, a threat.

Even though its miltary 10 years ago would have been incapable of putting up much of a fight it gets labelled as an enemy.

The idea that Russian hackers stole the election is laughable, after 2 years and massive amounts of $$ spent the US police
and Intelligence services have found zilch, aside from a dossier written by a member of British Intelligence supplied with data
from a lot of supposedly anti Putin oligarchs in London.
They became anti Putin when the billions they stole got questioned but NOT by the supposed West's moral and complex rules
on question where people's wealth came from.

The idea of thousands of Russian hackers is laughable................ West is streets ahead in this as Snowden and Wikileaks
show with primarily US companies leading the way in software development.
Often with CIA or other US Defense industry seed capital.
If Russia was so great at it, then Silicon valley has been ripping of people for decades in its software protection scam, don't
notice any offering Feds a refund.

In addition it would show that Western Intelligence agencies were completly incompetent in their inability of protecting the countrys
that pay them Billions a year, however if you keep talking of a threat the gravy train continues.

In recent weeks we have had
US Energy Secretary Ryan Zinke proclaiming that US will use USN to stop Russian's energy exports getting to markets.
UK proclaiming it intends to carry out Cyber attacks on Moscow
US warning countrys that Russia will use Energy as a weapon
Sanctions imposed on people and countrys because they bought Russian rather than US Arms.

US Govt is bankrupt................. its debt is 112% of GDP and soon it will be paying more in Interest for this Debt than it spends on Defense.

China, Russia and others are moving away from using US$ in trading exports.............. that is the biggest risk because less $$$ around then less $$$ to buy US Foreign Debt.

US needs an enery to justify spending billions on its Defense Industry, it forgets it was warned about this decades ago about allowing Military Industrial Complex by Eisenhower.

So in answer to the question "Should we be scared of Russia"..................... only if you continue to poke the bear looking for a response.

I forecast in next 2 years there will be a major Wheat "parasite / disease" issue in Russia that destroys crops.

rotornut
8th Oct 2018, 13:29
When 'Yuri Russian' (or whatever their equivalent of 'Johnny English' is!)
The Germans in WWII called him Ivan.

Kerosene Kraut
8th Oct 2018, 13:56
Russia should not fight the west out of cold war habit as it's true big competitor sits right next to it's east.

KelvinD
8th Oct 2018, 14:43
Racedo: Spot on! One bit extra you might add to the history, beyond the invasions of Russia by the West: Russia has never invaded anybody else's territory. (Now, now, you lot in the cheap seats; Russia never invaded Afghanistan; they were invited in. It doesn't matter whether or not you liked the then Afghan President, it doesn't alter the fact).
VP959: NATO isn't a threat to the Russian Federation itself at all, and never has been, at least since the collapse of the Soviet Union. I believe that the government of the RF have made it seem that NATO is a threat, to the population of the RF, for reasons that have nothing to do with any possible threat to it as a state. Russia wishes to continue to work with, and manipulate, other states, for its own political and economic reasons, and sees NATO as a threat to those expansionist policies, but rather than openly state this it dresses it up as if NATO is about to launch a pre-emptive attack on Russia itself.
Do you really think so? Why is NATO, and the UK in particular, constantly ramping up forces in those countries bordering Russia? NATO's Enhanced Forward Presence has thousands of troops, armour, aircraft etc deployed to Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania. The UK even has a sizable number of troops training Ukrainian forces in Ukraine itself. Despite the fact that the whole Ukrainian mess was sod all to do with Russia. It was engineered by the anti-communists and was a typical "false flag" operation. For the doubters: Google Catherine Ashton and the Estonian Foreign Minister. There is a recording of a phone call during which this is discussed, with the Estonian F.M. expressing something like regret over how the killing began.
Now let's contrast and compare two ongoing stories:
1. Sergei Skripal
2. Jamal Kashoggi.
#1 gets the anti Russian hysteria treatment with everybody except me getting the blame for that!
#2 Hardly merits a mention and I have not yet seen anything relative to this on Jet Blast. Quick precis: Jamal Kashoggi is a Saudi exile who has criticised the Saudi King. He went into the Saudi Embassy in Istanbul to have a piece of paper legalised. And he was never seen again! The Turkish President is so far avoiding saying he has been murdered but, significantly, he is not stopping the press in Turkey from saying this man was killed in the Embassy, butchered and the body parts smuggled out in diplomatic bags. Possibly in the 2 biz jets that arrived the day after he went missing and returned to Riyash the following day. Who knows?
The point though is that this appears to be a Saudi citizen allegedly having come to harm at the hands of a government yet there is not a peep of the Skripal style outrage here, in the mainstream media or elsewhere.
Now, I wonder why that may be?

Out Of Trim
8th Oct 2018, 15:00
Russia has never invaded anywhere apparently... :confused:

Soviet and Russian Invasions since 1917
Table of Contents
What is a Soviet and Russian invasion?
But, what about US invasions?
Countries invaded by Soviet Russia/Soviet Union/Russian Federation
Estonia 1917
Latvia 1918
Lithuania 1918
Finland 1918
Poland 1918
Belarus 1918
Ukraine 1918
Georgia 1920
Azerbaijan 1920
Armenia 1920
Moldova 1918
Central Asia 1918
Mongolia 1921
Georgia 1924
Estonia 1924
Afghanistan 1929
China 1929
Japan 1938
Poland 1939
Finland 1939
Estonia 1940
Latvia 1940
Lithuania 1940
Romania 1940
Iran 1942
Ukraine and Belarus 1944
Bulgaria 1944
Hungary 1944
Yugoslavia 1944
Albania 1944
Poland 1944
The Baltic States 1944
Germany 1944
Tuva 1944
Japan 1945
China 1945
Korea 1950
East Germany 1953
Hungary 1956
Vietnam 1960
Czechoslovakia 1968
China 1969
Israel 1969
Ethiopia 1974
Angola 1975
Afghanistan 1979
Georgia 1989
Baltic States 1990
Georgia 1991
Azerbaijan 1991
Moldova 1992
Tajikistan 1992
Northern Caucasus 1992
Georgia 2008
Ukraine 2014
Syria 2015

ATNotts
8th Oct 2018, 15:20
Russia has never invaded anywhere apparently... :confused:

Soviet and Russian Invasions since 1917
Table of Contents
What is a Soviet and Russian invasion?
But, what about US invasions?
Countries invaded by Soviet Russia/Soviet Union/Russian Federation
Estonia 1917
Latvia 1918
Lithuania 1918
Finland 1918
Poland 1918
Belarus 1918
Ukraine 1918
Georgia 1920
Azerbaijan 1920
Armenia 1920
Moldova 1918
Central Asia 1918
Mongolia 1921
Georgia 1924
Estonia 1924
Afghanistan 1929
China 1929
Japan 1938
Poland 1939
Finland 1939
Estonia 1940
Latvia 1940
Lithuania 1940
Romania 1940
Iran 1942
Ukraine and Belarus 1944
Bulgaria 1944
Hungary 1944
Yugoslavia 1944
Albania 1944
Poland 1944
The Baltic States 1944
Germany 1944
Tuva 1944
Japan 1945
China 1945
Korea 1950
East Germany 1953
Hungary 1956
Vietnam 1960
Czechoslovakia 1968
China 1969
Israel 1969
Ethiopia 1974
Angola 1975
Afghanistan 1979
Georgia 1989
Baltic States 1990
Georgia 1991
Azerbaijan 1991
Moldova 1992
Tajikistan 1992
Northern Caucasus 1992
Georgia 2008
Ukraine 2014
Syria 2015

Well let's pull rather silly long list apart shall we?

Syria? Invited in by the Syrian state. Afghanistan, Angola, all of the Eastern Bloc European countries after the Iron Curtain came down likewise. I'll give you Czechoslovakia (1968) and Hungary (1956) though again history will show that the recognised governments also invited them in then. "Double counties the Baltic States hardly qualifies since none of them were invaded after they declared independence. To be honest I really can't be bothered to debunk any more of these. Talk of fake news!!!

No let's think about the USA / NATO:-

Iraq (Twice)
Libya
Greneda
Nicaragua
Most of the current British Commonwealth nations (by the British Empire) Can't imagine many of the tribal leaders being asked their permission to annexe their lands
Cuba (Didn't end very well, that one)
Somalia (Clandestine raid with disastrous consequences)

Without searching wiki I can't come up with too many more.

Facts are that the global power players have all been pretty good at invading other weaker countries, and assisting those witthin what they consider to be their "sphere of influence" for centuries.

It is however absolutely true that Russia has been invaded by land armies 3 times with horrendous consequences over the last 100 years, the USA? Nil. The UK - if you exclude the Channel Islands, Nil. Russia has long been paranoid about being invaded again and through Soviet and now in recent Russian times the instinct is to be armed and ready against such invasions happening again.

Am I afraid of Russia? More so than I was 12 months ago for sure, but given the choice between Putin and Trump I know who I'd trust to have a level head in a crisis.

Kerosene Kraut
8th Oct 2018, 15:27
So who would you trust then?

currawong
8th Oct 2018, 15:32
"Russia has been invaded by the West 3 times in 100 years..............."

Define "West"....

I think you will find what you call "the West" gave the real "West" a pretty good kicking also.

currawong
8th Oct 2018, 15:38
"Cuba (Didn't end very well, that one)"

Which time?

Everyone forgets the first one. Doesn't fit the current narrative.

VP959
8th Oct 2018, 15:40
It's easy to quote stuff selectively. For example, my grandfather was sent to Russia in 1917 as a flying instructor, to teach Russian pilots to fly and fight and his CO died there, just before my grandfather was posted back to France. Over the years the UK has done a fair bit to help Russia, and the Soviet Union, as those who sailed in the Arctic Convoys will attest. The UK hasn't really had any issues with Russia (as distinct from the former Soviet Union), until relatively recently.

currawong
8th Oct 2018, 15:56
It's easy to quote stuff selectively. For example, my grandfather was sent to Russia in 1917 as a flying instructor, to teach Russian pilots to fly and fight and his CO died there, just before my grandfather was posted back to France. Over the years the UK has done a fair bit to help Russia, and the Soviet Union, as those who sailed in the Arctic Convoys will attest. The UK hasn't really had any issues with Russia (as distinct from the former Soviet Union), until relatively recently.

At the invite of the government of the day. So not really an "invasion".

VP959
8th Oct 2018, 16:03
At the invite of the government of the day. So not really an "invasion".

Indeed, it was at the request of the then Russian government, along with some aircraft that we (belatedly) gave them at the same time. The chap running the mission was awarded a medal (posthumously) by the Russians, I believe.

fitliker
8th Oct 2018, 16:15
One of the Duke of Edinburgh quotes " The Russians murdered my cousin's"
Talk about holding a grudge :)
How many Britons were slaughtered fighting German Royal cousin squabbles ?
​​​​​​We would all be speaking Nazi if it was not for the Red Army killing 80 percent of the Nazi army .
Although most people would not know the frightening similarity between the mad ramblings in Mein Kampf and Corbyn's evil little pan euro plotting to keep the UK under Berlin's control.

sitigeltfel
8th Oct 2018, 16:21
Indeed, it was at the request of the then Russian government, along with some aircraft that we (belatedly) gave them at the same time.

You make it sound as if the UK was somehow churlish and mean. Never forget that Stalin signed a non aggression pact with Hitler, a signal that he could invade Poland with impunity. Of course, it later blew up in Stalins face and led to the death of millions.

I occasionally have to deal with them here, they are not to be trusted, ever.

VP959
8th Oct 2018, 16:24
You make it sound as if the UK was somehow churlish and mean. Never forget that Stalin signed a non aggression pact with Hitler, a signal that he could invade Poland with impunity. Of course, it later blew up in Stalins face and led to the death of millions.

I occasionally have to deal with them here, they are not to be trusted, ever.

This was long before Stalin or Hitler, it was in 1917...

Stalin didn't join the Politburo until after the Russian Revolution.

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 18:59
It's easy to quote stuff selectively. For example, my grandfather was sent to Russia in 1917 as a flying instructor, to teach Russian pilots to fly and fight and his CO died there, just before my grandfather was posted back to France. Over the years the UK has done a fair bit to help Russia, and the Soviet Union, as those who sailed in the Arctic Convoys will attest. The UK hasn't really had any issues with Russia (as distinct from the former Soviet Union), until relatively recently.

I wasn't referrring to 1917, more like 1919 and Russian civil war......................... grew up knowing a guy who was sent there in 1919 into Murmansk.

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 19:01
"Russia has been invaded by the West 3 times in 100 years..............."

Define "West"....

I think you will find what you call "the West" gave the real "West" a pretty good kicking also.

States west of Russia, claiming they different now really doesn't wash when NATO forces had within its ranks in West German forces ex Nazi's.

Andy_S
8th Oct 2018, 19:04
Well let's pull rather silly long list apart shall we?.

Except you really haven't. You've just picked out a few.

Dealing with Russia being invaded first, it may be technically correct to say that it's happened three times in the last hundred years, but it's twisting the truth to breaking point. The reality is it hasn't happened for over 75 years. Russia, on the other hand, has invaded other countries far more recently. Ukraine (2014) and Georgia (2008). Whatever the apologists claim, Russia has indeed invaded other countries.

In fact Russia has a long history of interfering in other countries affairs. Again, you may be technically correct in saying that they weren't all invaded, but they certainly instigated regime change through either proxy military forces or using sympathetic local political movements to foment unrest.

Should we be scared of Russia? It depends what you mean by "we" and "Russia". I don't think we need be scared of the Russian people, who on the whole strike me as agreeable. The government, though, are another matter. "We" in the UK have every right to fear the behaviour of a regime that conducts operations using radioactive materials and chemical weapons on UK soil. And while we probably need not fear Russian military aggression, countries like Latvia have every reason to.

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 19:04
You make it sound as if the UK was somehow churlish and mean. Never forget that Stalin signed a non aggression pact with Hitler, a signal that he could invade Poland with impunity. Of course, it later blew up in Stalins face and led to the death of millions.

I occasionally have to deal with them here, they are not to be trusted, ever.

Stakin tried to get a pact with France and UK that would mean he put 1 million men on Polish border with Germany in August 1939.
Paris and London refused to have any discussions on it.

BehindBlueEyes
8th Oct 2018, 19:38
One of the Duke of Edinburgh quotes " The Russians murdered my cousin's"
Talk about holding a grudge :)
How many Britons were slaughtered fighting German Royal cousin squabbles ?
​​​​​​We would all be speaking Nazi if it was not for the Red Army killing 80 percent of the Nazi army .
Although most people would not know the frightening similarity between the mad ramblings in Mein Kampf and Corbyn's evil little pan euro plotting to keep the UK under Berlin's control.


What Phil the Greek forgets, when he says that the Russians murdered his cousins, was that another one of his cousins, George V, decided that it would not be prudent to offer sanctuary to the Tsar and his family. Nicholas’s deep unpopularity caused George to abandon his cousin over fears his presence could spark a similar worker uprising in Britain. Didn’t want the peasants over here getting similar ideas, I suppose? George V realised that, to most of his subjects, the tsar was a bloodstained tyrant and that this was no time for a constitutional monarch, apprehensive of his own position, to be extending the hand of friendship to an autocrat – however closely related.

Back to the original question.

i don’t think it’s Russia we need to be worrying about - it’s China. Don’t trust them one inch; either with human rights or ethical dealing.

Jack D
8th Oct 2018, 19:47
1839-1895 : See Russian conquest of Central Asia
I suppose that counts as invasion does it not.

WingNut60
8th Oct 2018, 19:52
This was long before Stalin or Hitler, it was in 1917...

Stalin didn't join the Politburo until after the Russian Revolution.

I hate to be pedantic but ...The first politburo was created in Russia by the Bolshevik Party in 1917 to provide strong and continuous leadership during the Russian Revolution occurring during the same year. The first Politburo had seven members: Lenin, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Trotsky, Stalin, Sokolnikov, and Bubnov.

cavortingcheetah
8th Oct 2018, 20:02
In the quite likely event that Corbyn makes it to No 10, with Seamus Milne as his Grand Vizier, Owen Jones as Minister of Propaganda and Diane Abbott as Chief of the Air Force, you won't have to worry about Russia one little bit, you'll be besties and anyone who says otherwise will be sent for retraining.

Chronus
8th Oct 2018, 20:29
Racedo: Spot on! One bit extra you might add to the history, beyond the invasions of Russia by the West: Russia has never invaded anybody else's territory. (Now, now, you lot in the cheap seats; Russia never invaded Afghanistan; they were invited in. It doesn't matter whether or not you liked the then Afghan President, it doesn't alter the fact).
VP959:
Do you really think so? Why is NATO, and the UK in particular, constantly ramping up forces in those countries bordering Russia? NATO's Enhanced Forward Presence has thousands of troops, armour, aircraft etc deployed to Poland, Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania. The UK even has a sizable number of troops training Ukrainian forces in Ukraine itself. Despite the fact that the whole Ukrainian mess was sod all to do with Russia. It was engineered by the anti-communists and was a typical "false flag" operation. For the doubters: Google Catherine Ashton and the Estonian Foreign Minister. There is a recording of a phone call during which this is discussed, with the Estonian F.M. expressing something like regret over how the killing began.
Now let's contrast and compare two ongoing stories:
1. Sergei Skripal
2. Jamal Kashoggi.
#1 gets the anti Russian hysteria treatment with everybody except me getting the blame for that!
#2 Hardly merits a mention and I have not yet seen anything relative to this on Jet Blast. Quick precis: Jamal Kashoggi is a Saudi exile who has criticised the Saudi King. He went into the Saudi Embassy in Istanbul to have a piece of paper legalised. And he was never seen again! The Turkish President is so far avoiding saying he has been murdered but, significantly, he is not stopping the press in Turkey from saying this man was killed in the Embassy, butchered and the body parts smuggled out in diplomatic bags. Possibly in the 2 biz jets that arrived the day after he went missing and returned to Riyash the following day. Who knows?
The point though is that this appears to be a Saudi citizen allegedly having come to harm at the hands of a government yet there is not a peep of the Skripal style outrage here, in the mainstream media or elsewhere.
Now, I wonder why that may be?

Good idea, let`s do that.
The Skripal fuss looks like a bungled espionage job. Cannot be denied the bloke is a traitor to his country and people. The event provided good opportunity for us to kick up a fuss over it and take the heat off our more pressing problems, such as what to do about Syria, terrorism, fundementalism, and who is best as our friend or foe, the EU, Ireland and Brexit. How dare the Russians to attempt to harm someone who had seen the light and escaped from tyranny, whom we had taken under our protective wing.

Jamal Kashoggi`s case also has similarities, with different players on the stage of the Middle East. The Turks have not been getting on too well with the Saudis and have risen in defence of the Qataris who fell out with the Saudis. Not so long ago the Qataris had gifted a $400m 747 to Erdogan as a sign of their appreciation of this friendship. Kashoggi, a Saudi journalist, on the other hand, has been mouthing off aginst his own King. So here is an ideal opportunity to stir it up for Turkey by making Kashoggi vanish. But perhaps since Skripal novocheck has become a household name, the old fashioned dismembered- bits in -15 diplomatic bags- in two private jets could have been a more reliable method.

Nervous SLF
8th Oct 2018, 20:37
I agree with a lot of what racedo has posted except for the part about Russian technical ability. Never underestimate someone
that you consider a threat.... it usually means you come off worse in a conflict.
As for China, I also don’t trust them one inch; either with human rights or ethical dealing and consider them to be far more of a
threat to the whole world than Russia.

currawong
8th Oct 2018, 22:24
States west of Russia, claiming they different now really doesn't wash when NATO forces had within its ranks in West German forces ex Nazi's.

There we have it.

Replace the word NATO with CIS., West German with Russian and Nazi's with Soviets.

Reads " claiming they different now doesn't wash when CIS forces had within its ranks Russian forces ex Soviets"

It is somehow ok for you to distrust the West over events from more than seventy years ago. But it is not ok to distrust Russia for events less than thirty rears ago?

Do not forget, the West was at war with your arch enemy the Nazis somewhat ahead of the Soviet Union and why it was so.

Jack D
8th Oct 2018, 22:37
I hate to be pedantic but ...

Ah yes the original politburo .. all of whom except Lenin and the incomprehensibly evil Stalin were either executed or assassinated as they were seen as a threat to Stalin’s total control .
A bit over the top one might say but old habits die hard

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 22:43
I agree with a lot of what racedo has posted except for the part about Russian technical ability. Never underestimate someone
that you consider a threat.... it usually means you come off worse in a conflict.
As for China, I also don’t trust them one inch; either with human rights or ethical dealing and consider them to be far more of a
threat to the whole world than Russia.

I never mentioned Russian technical know how, they have a different reasoning on stuff, make it work, make it repairable and keep it going.
More a true engineering viewpoint than adding all the latest kit.
Sadly the western views is How much can we sell it for, How much profit and If doesn't do what we say, Don't worry as in 5 years we get the upgrade
contract.
Only aircraft which seems to have been developed in West along similar lines was A10 - Warthog and US wanted to kill that.

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 22:53
There we have it.

Replace the word NATO with CIS., West German with Russian and Nazi's with Soviets.

Reads " claiming they different now doesn't wash when CIS forces had within its ranks Russian forces ex Soviets"

It is somehow ok for you to distrust the West over events from more than seventy years ago. But it is not ok to distrust Russia for events less than thirty rears ago?

Do not forget, the West was at war with your arch enemy the Nazis somewhat ahead of the Soviet Union and why it was so.

It is not over events more than seventy years ago, it is getting the word of a US President that NATO would not be expanding Eastwards and then it did and everybody saying "He never gave his word" and the US not bound by it.
So exactly when should someone trust word of a US President ?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html
As already indicated UK and France did not want a anti Nazi alliance in August 1939.
Faced with UK and France no go he made the deal with the Nazi's.

As for comment "with your arch enemy", WTF does that mean ?
Is it one of those if you refuse to drink the Western Govt continual lies you must be Russian ?

racedo
8th Oct 2018, 23:03
How dare the Russians to attempt to harm someone who had seen the light and escaped from tyranny, whom we had taken under our protective wing.


Strange how all these wealthy Oligarchs were allowed bring their Billions they stole into the UK to launder, UK govt allowed it and gave them all citizenship.

Now I have met many imigrants from many many countrys who came here on a boat after treking across Asia and Europe, strange not met many who came here in own
private jet to claim asylum with billions in bank accounts.

currawong
8th Oct 2018, 23:12
Stakin tried to get a pact with France and UK that would mean he put 1 million men on Polish border with Germany in August 1939.
Paris and London refused to have any discussions on it.

The French, British and Soviet Mutual Assistance Pact did not work out.

It was destined to fail, as the Soviet Union had already started negotiations with Nazi Germany to split Poland.

Interestingly, the "1 million men" figure is one used to describe Soviet troop numbers used in the invasion of Poland.

This was no attempt to contain Nazi Germany as you have implied. The two nations were aligned at this time, sharing a common interest.

currawong
8th Oct 2018, 23:23
"As for comment "with your arch enemy", WTF does that mean ?"

Just what it says.

You have a problem with the Nazis. The West was at war with Nazi Germany when the Soviet Union was aligned with them.

But all that was Mr Stalin. Mr Putin is not Mr Stalin. Just as the "West" is not Nazi Germany.


As for the Telegraph article....that is one of the more laughable pieces of revisionist history I have seen. Nothing personal.

racedo
9th Oct 2018, 10:55
The French, British and Soviet Mutual Assistance Pact did not work out.

It was destined to fail, as the Soviet Union had already started negotiations with Nazi Germany to split Poland.

Interestingly, the "1 million men" figure is one used to describe Soviet troop numbers used in the invasion of Poland.

This was no attempt to contain Nazi Germany as you have implied. The two nations were aligned at this time, sharing a common interest.

Er no

Stalin wished to protect USSR and as he was fully aware that German excursions were not stopping at any border, same way UK and France were aware war was coming.

racedo
9th Oct 2018, 11:08
"As for comment "with your arch enemy", WTF does that mean ?"

Just what it says.

You have a problem with the Nazis. The West was at war with Nazi Germany when the Soviet Union was aligned with them.

But all that was Mr Stalin. Mr Putin is not Mr Stalin. Just as the "West" is not Nazi Germany.


As for the Telegraph article....that is one of the more laughable pieces of revisionist history I have seen. Nothing personal.

UK and France refused an attempt to stop Nazi's in August 39.

As for it being revisionist, well the Telegraph article is 10 years old in a weeks time, UK academics have reviewed it as this was not
something known in detail about, none have dismissed it. It was as it says just Britain and France refused to consider it.

Following on from UK and France's refusal the Von Ribbentrop pact was signed 2 weeks later, it gave Stalin almost 2 years.

As for the Million men, not much of a surprise, why would it be because he was aware of Nazi intent as they had been moving
men and equipment up to Polish border for weeks, building a counter force in face of a potential invasion.

Shandy52
9th Oct 2018, 12:25
UK and France refused an attempt to stop Nazi's in August 39.

Poland refused a request by the Soviet Union to move a million troops across its territory. Britain, having given Poland a guarantee of independence, was naturally unwilling to agree to the Soviet request.
Equally, France had a military alliance with Poland. It's hardly surprising that France and Britain were unwilling to compromise Polish independence in this way.

currawong
9th Oct 2018, 14:54
Er no

Stalin wished to protect USSR and as he was fully aware that German excursions were not stopping at any border, same way UK and France were aware war was coming.

Implausible given Poland was not the only territory involved.

racedo
9th Oct 2018, 22:45
Implausible given Poland was not the only territory involved.

Historical fact whether you believe or not, historians don't seem to deny its veracity.

flash8
10th Oct 2018, 02:35
Watching the Jeremy Vine show this am a subject was should we be scared of Russia , complete with an interesting character called Bill Browder
Ahaa.. Bill "Holier-than-thou" Browder, one of the usual suspects wheeled out when anti-Russian rhetoric is required by the state broadcaster, read the guys book, much of it fiction, he was operating in Russia I think from the mid to late 90's until around 2006 or so... in an environment that was far dirtier than now, especially the early years, and yet he himself was as clean as can be and completely unawares of how the other 99% operated... I think not... been there, seen stuff that hes seen also... he's far from the character he likes to paint himself, that is when he is not painting himself as Putin enemy number one (although Harding is trying to claim that "prize" as well)....

Been here longer than I care to remember, Moscow that is, one of the safest cities in the world, and although I suspect not for the want of trying by the Russian state, likely under less electronic surveillance than the UK via GCHQ breaking the law with government complicty... The West, or at least some in the West have an agenda to paint Russia as the bogeyman, and given the terrible hypocrisy of their governments, something people are now slowly becoming aware of and rising against I'd be far more worried if I were them about domestic issues personally.

Don't believe everything you hear on the BBC which to my mind bears striking similarities ironically to Radio Moscow World Service circa 1975.. I consider myself to possess greater freedom here than I ever did in the UK (an "old boys" club at the top running through every facet of society, heck even the public pay deference to their "betters")... hard as many people I know will find believable. And to top if off, although it's not PC, the women here are incredible, just that alone would make me never leave ))

Jack D
10th Oct 2018, 02:56
They’re back !

currawong
10th Oct 2018, 03:04
Historical fact whether you believe or not, historians don't seem to deny its veracity.

From a historian in the Telegraph article you quote -

"Professor Donald Cameron Watt, author of How War Came - widely seen as the definitive account of the last 12 months before war began - said the details were new, but said he was sceptical about the claim that they were spelled out during the meetings."

"There was no mention of this in any of the three contemporaneous diaries, two British and one French - including that of Drax," he said. "I don't myself believe the Russians were serious."

The fact remains, Stalin did a deal, with Hitler, to share Poland, the Baltic States and Finland.

On the back of a long history of covert military assistance to Germany in order to subvert the Treaty of Versailles. Including, but not limited to, aircraft production facilities, pilot training facilities, weapons manufacturing facilities and a naval base, all within the USSR.

Indeed, talks were well advanced to admit the USSR to the Axis Alliance of Germany, Italy and Japan.

This of course is refuted by Stalin in the 1948 book "Falsifiers of History". An interesting study in the rhetoric of the time.

A view that has persisted only because it was the only one available to many prior to 1990.

But back to the original thread, "Should we be scared of Russia?"

I believe a "healthy respect" would be a better turn of phrase.

I believe Mr Putin has inherited a difficult legacy, but is by and large moving forward in a positive manner. Credit where it is due.

The Russia of today is not the USSR of Stalin.

flash8
10th Oct 2018, 03:15
They’re back !
I don't know who "they" are, but if as I assume you are referencing Flash... yes he back... after a week or so of actually having to do some work... at work*.... I now need a few months to recover.

*Which incidentally is not the Kremlin... lest you suspect otherwise.

mickjoebill
10th Oct 2018, 05:01
Russia has a similar gdp to Australia.
Yes a country needs only one nuke to be a threat to its enemies but the threat becomes overstated.

The US military industry needs the US to have as many significant enemies as possible.
Putin benifits politically from the sword rattling as much as Trump.
The media are willing accomplices in the fear mongering.

The citizens of Russia and the USA would have a higher standard of living if their governments didn’t spend 5x more on defense as other Western countries.

Mjb


Mjb

Trossie
10th Oct 2018, 07:36
One of the Duke of Edinburgh quotes " The Russians murdered my cousin's"
...
His cousin's who? Who was it that belonged to his cousin that was murdered?

Trossie
10th Oct 2018, 07:38
UK and France refused an attempt to stop Nazi's in August 39
...
The Nazi's what? What was it that belonged to the Nazis that the UK and France refused to stop?

pax britanica
10th Oct 2018, 13:01
well i think my cooments as thread starter produced a pretty balanced debate.

one reason i did it was because my wife has a Russian friend who has lived here for a few years and is a very intelligent and interesting person.
she is absolutely clear that the Russians ( and she is what i would call a modern putinista /Moscow semi elite) and she has absolutely no doubt what so ever who Russias enemies are and it is CHINA .

She also defends Putin on the grounds that Russia is too big and its history to complex to just go to a western style democracy in a few decades butt hat Russia is abetter place now than in her or her parent s lifetime.

On the historical notes about leading up to WW2 there was of course a lot of manoeuvring at diplomatic levels and one has to remember that in both Britain and France the horrors of WW1 were a mere 20 years in the past and no one in their right mind would want to accelerate a repeat of that. Russia may have made sucha proposal but UK and france had every reason to be as wary of Stalin as Hitler and the Russians were hardly reliable in WW1.

On the other hand all of this presupposes that we in the Uk are a gentle country innocent of any wrong doing or the murkier arts of espionage and security when the facts are that we are far from involvement in such matters (even though such things should be largely kept quiet pretending they dont exist at all is just silly) and we tend to see history through very red white and blue glasses . We spy , bug , and intefere with other peoples communications on an immense scale and are outraged when some of them play the same games back at us - I cannot see Theresa May ordering hits on People , but I can see Putin doing that. On the other hand I think most Uk and western politicians would give their right arm to be Putin since they like to use words like power and control a great deal and some have already sold our country down the river in terms of taking back control even though they know we are economically quite weak and politically virtually irrelevant-they just want to be 'in charge'.

So shall I close the thread or keep it going- it seems quite balanced and without too much spite, bile , hatred, xenophobia and things which are taken for granted in JB but really should be only in moderation

racedo
10th Oct 2018, 15:21
From a historian in the Telegraph article you quote -

"Professor Donald Cameron Watt, author of How War Came - widely seen as the definitive account of the last 12 months before war began - said the details were new, but said he was sceptical about the claim that they were spelled out during the meetings."

"There was no mention of this in any of the three contemporaneous diaries, two British and one French - including that of Drax," he said. "I don't myself believe the Russians were serious."

The fact remains, Stalin did a deal, with Hitler, to share Poland, the Baltic States and Finland.
.

It was not in diaries because writers of same assumed it would remain hidden so never had to be revealed.

In relation to the historian it would mean that his 1989 book then becomes junk because he was missing a key part of the puzzle.
Dissing it means he can claim to have the best account rather than one shown by history to have been written on a false premise.

Chamberlain did a deal in 1938 to hand over Czecheslovakia and did nothing when Hitler broke it.

racedo
10th Oct 2018, 15:46
We spy , bug , and intefere with other peoples communications on an immense scale and are outraged when some of them play the same games back at us - I cannot see Theresa May ordering hits on People , but I can see Putin doing that.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/02/mi5-agents-are-allowed-to-commit-in-uk-government-reveals

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/mi5-can-authorise-agents-to-commit-crimes-tribunal-told-1.3651806

“The argument is effectively ‘we can’t say whether or not we give our agents authority to torture and kill people in the UK, because then people under investigation would know what limits are placed on our agents’ conduct’. But this makes the basic error of assuming that those limits are in the discretion of the security service and may be set by a secret government policy,” Mr Jaffrey told the tribunal. "

The policy in Northern Ireland showed that Uk Government agencies were complicit in murders of British citizens.
When Uk Govt minister stood up and abused a Solicitor and weeks later said solicitor gets executed in front of his family.

BBC NEWS | UK | Politics | Hogg compromised over RUC briefing (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2956659.stm)

Sir John Stevens when asked to investigate, actually took the job seriously and did as he was asked.
Knowing whom he was up against he ensured ALL evidence was copied and taken to London just in case a mysterious accident were to occur.

An amazing coincidence was that a fire broke out and destroyed the offices he was working from, with all the collected evidence and witness statements.
This within a secure army base and base fire brigade were delayed getting to it.

fitliker
10th Oct 2018, 16:38
I think the Duke was referring to his cousin the Czar Nicolas .

ShotOne
10th Oct 2018, 16:47
“Czechoslovakia....Chamberlain did nothing..”. Like what? March a non-existent army through Germany to intervene with Gloster Gladiators as air support?

Fair point raised re Saudi murder (or not!) of Jumal Khashoggi. It’d be nice to see their alleged hit squad given the Bellingcat treatment

currawong
10th Oct 2018, 23:31
"It was not in diaries because writers of same assumed it would remain hidden so never had to be revealed."

You are not making sense - if the diaries were assumed to remain hidden it would be of no consequence if it was recorded.

On Czechoslovakia, what of the Soviet/Czech Treaty of 1935?

The Soviet Union also failed to come to their aid, despite treaty obligations, and was indeed one of the first to recognize the new pro German regime installed there.

So yes, Chamberlain did nothing, as did Stalin.

fitliker
11th Oct 2018, 03:03
Why was Poland off the European map ?
​​​​​​123 years off the map . Back on the map in the Versilles negotiations.
Charles Edward Stuart the last big trouble maker in Scotland in 1745 was related to Polish Royalty .
​​
We should fear the enemy's at home , before worrying about how the Russians eat their eggs.
​​​

currawong
11th Oct 2018, 03:48
"We should fear the enemy's at home , before worrying about how the Russians eat their eggs."

We do, Sergei Skripal thread refers.

Blacksheep
11th Oct 2018, 13:41
I'm forever grateful to Russia, or to be more specific, the Bolsheviks. If not for them I would never have been born.

My grandmother's first husband was a crew member of His Majesty's Submarine L55, sunk by Bolshevik destroyers in 1919 while participating in the blockade of Bolshevik controlled ports in the Baltic.

What were the British fleet doing there? Interfering in Russian internal affairs: something no decent nation should do, apparently.