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Loose rivets
6th Oct 2018, 18:06
Power to the frame? Wasn't that a clue? Even so, it is, or was, his most valuable work - or right up there, so it seems an expensive stunt.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-45770028

ImageGear
6th Oct 2018, 18:18
Who pays?

If he has the smarts, the recent buyer...

School of thought says that only 50% was shredded and the rest left intact. This has actually increased the value of the Banksy since it now plays to the anti-establishment narrative he has subscribing to for a while. (It has morphed into a statement piece) :rolleyes:

Gertrude the Wombat
6th Oct 2018, 19:55
An art dealer has already offered to pay the bid price if the buyer doesn't want it, so that's sorted.

Edit to add: More to the point, either Banksy or an accomplice must, surely, have been in the room to press the button, so he has taken a bit of a risk of being outed.

ethicalconundrum
6th Oct 2018, 20:04
The buyer would never be forced to pay for it. He/she was bidding on, and agreed to buy a piece of art in condition 'at time of sale'. This is the standard terms of sale. once the gavel fell, if was up to the auction house to see that it was delivered in the condition when the hammer dropped. No matter who caused it to shred, it is now different than when bidding ended. Whether the buyer SHOULD pay the price and take is artwork is a matter of conjecture and speculation which I have no opinion on.

TheiC
6th Oct 2018, 20:31
The buyer would never be forced to pay for it. He/she was bidding on, and agreed to buy a piece of art in condition 'at time of sale'. This is the standard terms of sale. once the gavel fell, if was up to the auction house to see that it was delivered in the condition when the hammer dropped. No matter who caused it to shred, it is now different than when bidding ended. Whether the buyer SHOULD pay the price and take is artwork is a matter of conjecture and speculation which I have no opinion on.

This is modern art. The piece was exactly as in the condition at the time of sale; it was a canvas in a frame with a shredder. A functional, situationist, manipulative, piece of art, but certainly a whole piece of art. If the buyer hadn’t inspected it properly, that’s his lookout.

It’s now worth much more than the bid price, and the ‘buyer’ would be either an imbecile, or in on it, not to proceed. In fact, I’d pay the bid price for it now, if both other parties pull out.

andytug
6th Oct 2018, 20:32
Surely it's now worth even more due to its uniqueness and reputation, which after all is mostly what high end art is all about?

VP959
6th Oct 2018, 21:28
I have to say that I have a sneaky admiration for Banksy. He has talent as an artist, and yet constantly takes the piss out of the conventional art world. Given how bloody pretentious the art world can be, it's refreshing to see someone who constantly pokes them with a sharp stick.

As above, I doubt that anyone has lost out, which is probably not what Banksy wanted. He seems to delight in being a sort of Robin Hood figure in the art world, and long may he continue in the same vein.

TheiC
6th Oct 2018, 21:42
VP, thanks for that perspective.

Art, here, is the winner.

Adorable, complicated, frustrating, art.

And Banksy, whose skilful playing of his contemporaries constantly breaks new bounds.

ethicalconundrum
6th Oct 2018, 22:11
This is modern art. The piece was exactly as in the condition at the time of sale; it was a canvas in a frame with a shredder. A functional, situationist, manipulative, piece of art, but certainly a whole piece of art. If the buyer hadnít inspected it properly, thatís his lookout.

Itís now worth much more than the bid price, and the Ďbuyerí would be either an imbecile, or in on it, not to proceed. In fact, Iíd pay the bid price for it now, if both other parties pull out.

The style or theme of the work is immaterial to the terms of sale. The piece changed significantly after the hammer dropped on as agreed work produced. It is no longer in 'as inspected' condition if you want to use that qualifier. The question from the OP was 'who pays'. There is no court in the free world that would enforce a sale after the shredding.

As for the worth of the piece now after the change in condition, I have no opinion.

Tech Guy
6th Oct 2018, 22:34
I call "fraud" on this. Look at the start of the video where he is installing the "shredder". All the blades are fixed to a flat bit of wood and are oriented sideways. To actually shred the picture, they would need to be mounted with the blade edges facing outwards. I am guessing the picture simply rotated within the frame and pre shredded bits of paper came out the bottom.

Definitely a superb head f**k moment though. http://www.realoutdoorsforum.com/forum/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/biggrin.gif

rotornut
6th Oct 2018, 23:19
Banksy? I'm going to be famous. I took my golden retriever over a canvas after she was in a muddy river and had her shake the mud off her. It left impressions on the canvas which I am going to sell and I'm going to make millions of dollars, just like Jackson Pollock.

Hydromet
6th Oct 2018, 23:51
Banksy? I'm going to be famous. I took my golden retriever over a canvas after she was in a muddy river and had her shake the mud off her. It left impressions on the canvas which I am going to sell and I'm going to make millions of dollars, just like Jackson Pollock.
All well and good, but was your retriever drunk at the time?

Loose rivets
6th Oct 2018, 23:53
Pollock is an anomaly. I saw a program some 20 years ago where someone had analysed the mathematics of the curves - it seems they were very fractal-ish. Quite how he, Pollock, achieved this while pirouetting about on one big toe in the middle of the canvas, I'm not sure.

rotornut
7th Oct 2018, 00:03
All well and good, but was your retriever drunk at the time? Yep, she had the same hooch as I had.https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/user_online.gif https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/report.gif (https://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=10267652)

Nervous SLF
7th Oct 2018, 00:50
No doubt many will moan about my question but do we really need scribbles on paper or canvas since modern
cameras and computers can do even better images? Oh yes and also in a much more cost effective manor.

:)

Hydromet
7th Oct 2018, 02:50
No doubt many will moan about my question but do we really need scribbles on paper or canvas since modern
cameras and computers can do even better images? Oh yes and also in a much more cost effective manor.

:)
Yes, perhaps even more so, since, while cameras can make an exact image, "scribbles on paper or canvas" can bring to us the artists imagination, and stimulate the emotions. I'm not saying cameras and software can't do the same, but to say they can replace drawn or painted (or carved) works is to isolate us from a very large body of work.

Pontius Navigator
7th Oct 2018, 08:43
Pollock is an anomaly. I saw a program some 20 years ago where someone had analysed the mathematics of the curves - it seems they were very fractal-ish. Quite how he, Pollock, achieved this while pirouetting about on one big toe in the middle of the canvas, I'm not sure.
Some time ago I looked at one Pollock and could discern that it was not random at all. I couldn't discern a pattern but there was a consistency. The thin black lines over the whole picture didn't split any colour; no single colour extended under a black line. Similarly no colour spread over a black line. Now that is not random.

What of Rothko though? I can achieve that any day with my paint roller.

Krystal n chips
7th Oct 2018, 09:17
The style or theme of the work is immaterial to the terms of sale. The piece changed significantly after the hammer dropped on as agreed work produced. It is no longer in 'as inspected' condition if you want to use that qualifier. The question from the OP was 'who pays'. There is no court in the free world that would enforce a sale after the shredding.

As for the worth of the piece now after the change in condition, I have no opinion.

Actually, the style and the theme is very material given whom the artist is.

Somehow, I don't think a court is likely to be troubled when it comes to the sale.......also mentions the worth of the piece

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2018/oct/06/banksy-sothebys-auction-prank-leaves-art-world-in-shreds-girl-with-balloon

Kerosene Kraut
7th Oct 2018, 09:45
With all the cameras in place this was clearly some well orchestrated event not surprising to those involved. Sort of a happening that will drive the prices even higher plus global coverage.
Art has become some cold business that tops even investment banking these days.

SpringHeeledJack
7th Oct 2018, 12:21
Some people are moved to tears, so deeply touched are they by Rothko's work, others just see a canvas with several colours. Banksy produces pieces that entertain and charm, clever in their simplicity. Whoever wishes to invest (in whichever way) in art, a broad church if ever there was one, then be my guest!

Kerosene Kraut
7th Oct 2018, 13:04
A friend of mine is an artist (painter) himself. He works for well known galleries at their stands on major art shows to earn his living too. He told me about some very well known german top CEO coming to his booth with some staff looking for some art to "match the red sofa in his office". These are the art lovers to deal with today. Or major museums globally buying the same seasonal stars. After some years they switch unisono to the next fashion of the day. Anybody remembers video art?

racedo
7th Oct 2018, 15:48
Must admit I don't "get" the Banksy thing in any way shape or form.

Krystal n chips
7th Oct 2018, 17:14
Must admit I don't "get" the Banksy thing in any way shape or form.

Think of his work as being a form of artistic social commentary ........

racedo
7th Oct 2018, 17:22
Think of his work as being a form of artistic social commentary ........

That is what the Grafiiti Artists who do the trains say...................

Krystal n chips
7th Oct 2018, 17:40
That is what the Grafiiti Artists who do the trains say...................

I don't think he's quite what some people would describe as your average graffiti artist, although some forms are actually quite good.

Take a closer look at his work, see that he depicts than ask yourself why he chooses to express his thoughts as to life and society the way he does and not just in the UK.

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Oct 2018, 18:12
That is what the Grafiiti Artists who do the trains say...................
Yeahbut the difference is ... people seem to think he's better at it.

racedo
7th Oct 2018, 19:04
Yeahbut the difference is ... people seem to think he's better at it.

Ha
Yiu don't know anything about art then......... its not better just the
Self expresionism of the artist that is interpreted differently in the eye of the viewer.
And if you believe that Tower Bridge is for sale.

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Oct 2018, 19:13
Yiu don't know anything about art then........
Don't look at me: I said "people seem to think", I didn't say what I thought.

racedo
7th Oct 2018, 19:30
Don't look at me: I said "people seem to think", I didn't say what I thought.

ha...............:E

gileraguy
7th Oct 2018, 23:05
after watching:

Adam Ruins Art

I reassessed my opinion on fine art...

tartare
8th Oct 2018, 00:01
Pollock is an anomaly. I saw a program some 20 years ago where someone had analysed the mathematics of the curves - it seems they were very fractal-ish. Quite how he, Pollock, achieved this while pirouetting about on one big toe in the middle of the canvas, I'm not sure.

Correct.
Fractal patterns in evidence.
Probably more intuitive chance than by design though.

eal401
8th Oct 2018, 08:33
Modern art - the only purpose is to make smug, self-obsessed people have an even greater sense of perceived superiority. As I think this thread is ably proving.

double_barrel
8th Oct 2018, 08:48
Correct.
Fractal patterns in evidence.
Probably more intuitive chance than by design though.

The coastline of Norway is fractal in nature, as is the structure of an elephant's rectum. It would be surprising if there were not fractal patterns in paint thrown on a canvas.

The Nip
8th Oct 2018, 10:37
That is what the Grafiiti Artists who do the trains say...................

Banksy is without doubt a talented artist. But he started out doing all those things that a majority on here are complaining about, he was a graffiti artist in Bristol. Walls, trains, railway sidings etc were his training canvases. I don't think for a minute he was ever concerned with the prospect that he was carrying out vandalism on public and private buildings, he was just like many young people who did similar things.

He is unique, and his work is highly valued. Good on him. 👍

Gertrude the Wombat
8th Oct 2018, 17:46
But he started out doing all those things that a majority on here are complaining about, he was a graffiti artist in Bristol. Walls ...
Like this one, graffiti on a wall in Bristol? - I quite like seeing this one when I walk past.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Well_Hung_Lover.jpg/300px-Well_Hung_Lover.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Well_Hung_Lover.jpg)

Hydromet
8th Oct 2018, 22:17
No doubt whoever bought the now-shredded work is laughing all the way to the banksy.

Pontius Navigator
8th Oct 2018, 23:15
Once had to write an essay about a Warhol litho of Jackie Kennedy. Pretentious rubbish but if course not allowed to write that. Of course it was art the same way as a Hirst - no one e!we had the brass neck to call it art.

My idea of art is the skill demonstrated by the old masters with supreme skill and brushwork.

SpringHeeledJack
9th Oct 2018, 09:46
My idea of art is the skill demonstrated by the old masters with supreme skill and brushwork.

The work of the old masters is stunning, but to just restrict the definition of art to such talents is a shame imho. What was art before the masters didn't exist ? Mankind has always expressed themselves, petroglyphs and earth sculptures etc were creative projections of what they felt and saw. Some of the modern stuff really is the emperor's new clothes, but much of it is enchanting, in that it makes you think/feel/emote. In Banksy's case it is detailed stencil art, pre-conceived and produced in a studio and then quickly spray painted onto an urban wall, usually in a location that is down at heel. Social commentary of the moment in visual form. In my view encouraging graffiti in general leads to social degradation, NYC in the 70's and 80's and then cleaned up in the 90's and 2k's with corresponding crime statistics would bear that out.

Btw, some 'clever' person who purchased a £40,000 print of the original (600 examples), shredded it 'monkey see, monkey do' style like the original, put it up for sale at £80,000 and was told that it was now worth £1 by the art dealer......The original went up in value due to the event at auction, the others not so.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6253357/Owner-Girl-Balloon-copy-shredded-40-000-work-believing-double.html