Flight training - USA, Canada or Australia?

[phlegm]

G'day,

I'm an Australian guy looking into taking the plunge and commencing pilot training. I'm starting from scratch, just a discovery flight in a 152 and a session in an A320 sim. I'm planning on smashing out my PPL, IR, CPL, ME, CFI and maybe ATPL in one go, so quit my job and train fulltime.

I've been looking around at local flight schools but they're all hideously expensive. There are Australian cadetships with a few airlines but they're even more insanely priced so I'm not keen on the financial risk if I got in but failed the course or wasn't offered employment upon completion.

Therefore I'm leaning towards studying in Canada or the US, where training seems much more economical. I met an airline captain who trained at Aviator College in Florida and spoke very highly of it. In Canada I like the look of Harv's Air in Manitoba. I think Part 61 has more appeal than 141.
Any opinions on the merits of pursuing flight training in either place? I'd want to instruct for a year or two as soon as possible. After that I'd hope to fly Caravans in Indonesia or try to break into the Australian GA scene. The end goal is airlines but I'm not in a rush.

Also, licence conversions. This seems to be a minefield. Are Canadian licences well regarded internationally, or would I be best converting them to FAA? Anyone have any experience converting either CAR/FAA to CASA? Particularly, any realistic expectation of cost? Any advice on which order to various ratings would also be appreciated. Contending with potentially three aviation authorities sounds like a nightmare.

Cheers.

[paco]

Harv's Air comes highly recommended, from my own experience ans that of others. A Canadian licence is highly regarded and these days can be used to gain an FAA licence as a paperwork exercise involving a few air law questions.

phil

[phlegm]

Nice, did you train at the Steinbach or St Andrews airfield?

[paco]

Steinbach - but that's a dry town :)

[phlegm]

Damn, really? I'm a bit perplexed by all these flight schools with No Booze rules, seems pretty prudish.

Anyway back on licenses, if I'm trying to find work in big jets down the track in Asia, would a Canadian license be accepted or is this a situation where converting to FAA would be beneficial? Some carriers state any ICAO license is acceptable but others don't specify.

[paco]

It's a religious community - Amish, I think or similar. Very nice quiet town.

Canadian would be, but just to be sure get a faa one on the back of it.

[redsnail]

G'day Phlegm,
There was a real backlash against folks doing the FAA certificates and the quicky conversion to CASA tickets some time ago. The airlines viewed it as rorting the system and since that was their game, they didn't like folks doing the same.
Before spending a cent, establish what the go is regarding foreign lic conversions and Virgin/Qantas requirements. If they're a bit dark about it, I wouldn't bother. Stick to the Aussie system.
Given the employment scene in Australia right now, I would personally consider learning to fly in Darwin or somewhere like that where you have a decent crack at gaining employment post training.
Another "before spending a cent" check out the medical requirements and make sure you're good to go. I knew of one bloke who was well into his CPL theory exams before doing the medical. Diabetic, boom, dream over.

[phlegm]

paco - thanks for the heads up. I might pick St Andrews if I go there then, the idea of living in a full on religious community doesn't exactly sound like a great time haha.

redsnail - cheers mate really good info there. When was the backlash you're referring to? I've had a look at a the requirements and they clearly state a CASA ATPL, instrument rating etc, so I don't really get why a conversion wouldn't also be valid (not doubting you I just don't follow their logic).
I take it that by remark about "the employment scene in Aus right now" you mean conditions are good? And yeah I've been clued up about the medical, should be no dramas as I passed a pretty comprehensive medical for work recently.

[redsnail]

G'day Phlegm,
Yes, this bunfight happened a few years ago so hopefully it's all settled down. I would check with the airlines that conversions are ok. I don't mean eg you've gone FAA, worked there for a while, flown jets etc and then decided to "come home". What has happening in the past a chancer would bin the Aussie system and do a quicky FAA exam etc and then just do one conversion exams. Voila.

Conditions are rarely brilliant for newbies. However, now (unlike when I was having a go) you have a lot less competition but more importantly, you should move through the system of pistons -> twins -> turboprops -> nirvana a lot quicker. Check out the Aussie/Dununda forums. A lot of info there.
You'll probably still have to move etc, but if you're young, think of it as fun.

Please understand, I haven't worked in Australia for 18 years so a lot has changed. I do suggest that you don't write off Australia right now, especially since you are already a citizen.

[phlegm]

Honestly my main motivation for training in Canada/USA is financial. It looks like it's about 60% of the cost of training in Australia and that's pretty significant. But yeah I was planning on doing pretty much what you were describing: train from scratch in Canada/US, stay for a year or so as a CFI, then come back to Australia and convert to CASA (btw do you have to convert every individual licence and rating you have, or is it just the top level one i.e. the CPL?).

That progression makes sense but from reading around I'm still at a loss to work out where the entry level twin jobs are.

[redsnail]

When I went through it all, most entry level twin jobs are where the entry level single engine jobs are. Most charter companies in the north have singles and twins. You prove yourself on the singles and then progress. Have a look at what companies in Broome, Karratha, Kununurra, Alice Springs, Darwin, Kakadu, Cairns, Torres Strait, Whitsundays and so on.

[Nims]

Hi Phlegm,

I am also looking into doing flight training in Canada for the exact same reasons mentioned. It is cheaper and also should be a cool adventure. I will also be looking to do my Instructor rating after CPL and work in Canada for a couple of years to get my experience up.

As the guys have mentioned, Harv's Air is on my shortlist of schools. I was also looking at Langley Flying School (Near Vancouver).

I am trying to save some more money before I can do it as I will be quitting my job to focus on flying full-time.

Would doing the Flight Medical in Australia give you a good indication before flying in Canada?

Cheers,

Nimai

[paco]

The medical should be more or less standard around the world, so you should get an indication from that - you might even find an AME who can do both. While Langley is a nice place, the airspace around Vancouver is real busy. It's also in BC which stands for Bring Cash :)

Don't let thoughts of Steinbach being a "religious town" put you off - it really is a nice place.

Phil

[Nims]

The medical should be more or less standard around the world, so you should get an indication from that - you might even find an AME who can do both. While Langley is a nice place, the airspace around Vancouver is real busy. It's also in BC which stands for Bring Cash :)

Don't let thoughts of Steinbach being a "religious town" put you off - it really is a nice place.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Thanks for your Advice. I really would like to do training in the most affordable way, with a good school and now you mention it. I will be their to focus on the Flying, so maybe Steinbach would be ideal. However, St Andrews has the Controlled Airspace and I believe this would be more beneficial in the long run - getting used Radio comms early. What are your thoughts?

Thanks again,

Nims

[paco]

Steinbach is a short flight distance away - when you talk to Adam (the guy in charge) you can ask him - it was a while since I was there

phil

[phlegm]

Hey Nims, let me know if you do end up going ahead, maybe we'll meet over there someday.

I asked Adam at Harv's if he had any personal preference for Steinbach vs St Andrews and he gave me a general non-answer like "both are nice and you will receive the same standard of training at either". I think it boils down to are you willing to put up with a quieter place to save a few bucks or not.

[Nims]

Hi Phlegm,

Definitely man, you too. I'm trying to save more money in this coming year. I'm planning on around $65k. I was planning on trying to work part-time during my stay (up to 20hours a week for students), but I remember reading somewhere that Harv's does not allow this? I would actually also consider staying in their provided accomodation during my period of study. When are you planning on heading over and how much are you budgeting?

Cheers,

Nims

[selfin]

getting used Radio comms early. What are your thoughts?

It's irrelevant. Radio phraseology in Canada for VFR traffic is fairly simple. Clearances are often acknowledged only with the callsign. See NAV CANADA's VFR Phraseology Guide (http://www.navcanada.ca/en/products-and-services/pages/on-board-safety-initiatives-ats-pilot-communications.aspx).

Would doing the Flight Medical in Australia give you a good indication before flying in Canada?

It takes Transport Canada up to six weeks to issue a medical certificate and one is required for solo flying and flight tests. Proof of medical fitness, which may be in the form of a medical certificate, is required to take a written exam.

[Nims]

Hey man,

Are you still keen to study at Harv's Air in Canada? I realistically need another years worth of Savings. It would be awesome to pursue this adventure together. For your reference, I'm 32 years old, so coming to the industry a little bit later.

[phlegm]

Just a quick update.

I found a small flight school reasonably close to me who put me onto a training pathway I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere. It's a combination of RA and GA training where the progression is RPC - RPL - PPL - and then straight to RA Instructor (i.e. BEFORE getting your CPL). The idea is you can in theory start teaching as soon as you hit your 100 hours PIC and be able to claim all further training (CPL, MEIR etc) as tax deductions.

I'm pretty tempted, does anyone have any experience with this path or concerns about it? My main worry is that I'd lack the necessary experience at those hours to be a good instructor, or that I wouldn't be remotely hireable (I'm guessing only the people who trained you would hire you at those hours).

And no, I still haven't figured out if I'll train in Oz or Canada!