Reflections after an aircraft crash

[Pontius Navigator]

A bit macabre, but mention on another thread promoted a thought.

Two car ownership back in the 60s was not common with the husband using the family car to get to work. Sadly crashes were common. Honest must-read all a casualties on-base possessions were impounded for security, this was said to include the family car this leaving the widow stranded.

It was rumoured that one's mates would take urgent steps to get the car off-base before it could be impounded.

Was this true? If it was, is it true today?

I also remember one EGM to write off a liver-in's fairly large mess bill. This was large as it included the previous month's bill too that should have been paid. The current bill was written off on the nod but there was a vigorous debate on previous month though decency prevailed and it was written off too.

[TBM-Legend]

If we didn't pay our mess bills on time then it was a "parade" in front of the PMC with your hat and a memo to your CO. Officers and gentlemen [not always the same person] must pay their bills it was said.

[Pontius Navigator]

Quite. Given the large Mess at Akrotiri the staff had gained a relaxation to the 15th. David Craig, when he took over told the staff to knuckle down and we reverted to the 10th☺

[ORAC]

I thought it was a given that the mess bill cost was divided amongst the other mess members for the month - including the bar bill for the wake which was added to the total.

[MPN11]

All the ones I've encountered were just written off ... which included a Binbrook one [I happened to be there on a Staff Visit when he went in] whereby the numerous occupants of the Bar [Flying scrubbed] were loading his soon to be wiped Bar book. Perhaps that was just the Binbrook system?

[Pontius Navigator]

As I said, it was the prior month that should have been paid and there was significant minority for not paying it.

Really the PMC should have paid for not ensuring due payment😈

[jayteeto]

Original question. Yes, we drove/towed/dragged cars off base with locker contents thrown inside

[Pontius Navigator]

Original question. Yes, we drove/towed/dragged cars off base with locker contents thrown inside
What year?

[BEagle]

One of the pilots on a TWU course whilst I was at Brawdy had a fatal accident. One of the instructors who'd been in the RAF for quite a while gave his course members the heads-up concerning his car and it was quickly moved off-base to a safe location - the chap's car keys had been left in his flying clothing locker whilst he was airborne.

[OvertHawk]

One of the pilots on a TWU course whilst I was at Brawdy had a fatal accident. One of the instructors who'd been in the RAF for quite a while gave his course members the heads-up concerning his car and it was quickly moved off-base to a safe location - the chap's car keys had been left in his flying clothing locker whilst he was airborne.

If at all possible don't take your car keys (or house keys for that matter) flying with you whether military or civvy (Or at the very least make sure there are duplicates somewhere people can find them easily). I've seen it cause unnecessary difficulty and stress for bereaved next of kin on at least two occasions. Your family will have enough to deal without trying to get your car moved or break into your house.

[Timelord]

Yes. 1980s Buccaneer Sqn, always left car keys on my desk or in unlocked clothing locker.
Was never sure if it was a folk myth though.

[jayteeto]

80s
Chinook
cleared and ‘sanitized’ barrack block room as well

[30mRad]

My experience, and thankfully very limited, has been that the bar bill from the night goes on the deceased's account but is paid for by the mess community - a tradition (IIRC) dating back to the WW2. As for cars/keys/phones etc I believe that all casualties are initially dealt with by the civ police until it is clear that there is no crime to answer (complicated the GR4 mid-air and the Puma at Catterick as I understand it) and what might be viewed as tampering with evidence (moving cars etc) would be frowned upon. Perhaps someone with more experience than me may be able to clarify.

[Mogwi]

Yes, still leave my keys in my helmet bag when I slip the surly bonds, despite having left the military 26 years ago.

[Timelord]

I don’t think civil police involvement is the reason for this tradition as that is a relatively recent factor, and yes it did complicate the GR4 midair aftermath.

[Whenurhappy]

As a Flying Officer in NZ (1986) I was tasked to secure the effects of an armourer who was killed in a motorcycle accident. With the help of his Flt Sgt, we dutifully listed all his effects in his barrack room (including identifing his clothing in the drying room) until we found a collection of ‘weightbuilding’ magazines and some gay porn in the bottom of his wardrobe. OC Admin had impressed upon me the need to log everything we found; the FSgt took over and suggested that his family didn’t need to see this material and it was better if it were destroyed.

At at the funeral, there was a young man there absolutely distraught with grief; apparently he was the armourer’s partner. His family knew but his work colleagues didn’t. The police investigation suggested suicide and the coroner recorded an open verdict; it appears he was being blackmailed over his orientation. Thank God we’ve moved on.

[Pontius Navigator]

WUH, yes, I forgot to mention sorting out the kit for the NOK.

There was also the kit auction for NIK too.

[treadigraph]

Not military or even aviation but some 30 years ago I was part of an admin team which carried out some HR functions. One of the older members of staff (yikes he was younger than I am now) died of a heart attack in the car park. Several weeks later his boss handed us a cardboard box of personal effects cleared from our late colleague's desk and asked that it be dispatched to his wife with a suitable note. My boss and I decided to check the contents and looked at each other in horror when we found a pile of letters from what was obviously his very loving mistress. My boss, lovely lady, wrote two letters, one a personal condolence to his wife with the box of effects, the other to the mistress with a sensitive and gentle explanation as to the circumstances and offering to return or destroy the letters. I can't recall if there was a reply...

[WIDN62]

In the late 70s a friend of mine was killed in an aircraft accident. We both lived off camp in the local town. I was at home - due to be night flying that night. The first phone call was to inform me and tell me I was to be the Effects Officer, the second phone call was from a mate telling me that the deceased's care had been liberated from camp! His wife worked in the town so they managed very well with the one car - if the boys had not acted quickly she would have had even bigger problems.

[Ascend Charlie]

In the 70s we were told to look after the effects and car of anybody killed in a crash. Get it off the base.

We also told the wives that if the husband died at home, that she had to dress him in uniform and push him outside the door. Then she had to ring the Duty Officer and say that her husband hadn't come home from the base yet, and where was he?

That way he would be covered by the equivalent of worker's compensation, as he was still officially on the job and hadn't returned home. But might have been an urban myth.

[Pontius Navigator]

AC, ah, the caring sharing Air Force and you have 62 days to vacate your quarter.

[teeteringhead]

I recall hearing of a "caring sharing" Effects Officer who arrived at widow's house with clipboard just after the funeral.

EO: "Just clearing up a few things Ma'am - have you got your late husband's 1250?"

Widow: "No, but I know where it is."

EO: "We must have it back you know.."

Widow: "Every morning before he went to work [he was not an aviator] he checked his 1250 was in the pocket of his shirt. I returned the favour when we buried him in uniform - so now YOU know exactly where it is too!"

[Dan Winterland]

On the Flight Safety course in the late 80's, we were given a checklist in case of such an event. It was produced by a single seat fighter Sqn who had lost several aircraft in one year. Getting the car off base and sanitising the contents of desks/lockers were on it. I don't know what I did with it, but I certainly remember copying it and leaving it behind the ops desk of more than one Sqn.

[Old-Duffer]

They are not Effects Officers anymore but I think they are called: Assisting Officers.

It was always the commonsense approach to segregate anything which might cause distress, whether that was condoms, magazines of a certain 'flavour' or correspondence between the deceased and Miss Lita Lushbod, with whom he had struck up a 'friendship'.

I do not have any experience of the car issue outlined above but I do remember that when John Derry was killed at Farnborough, he had his car keys in his pocket.

In about 1990 the BBC had a several part programme about an accident (Friday on My Mind) where the Assisting Officer forms a relationship with the widow. The RAF 'top brass' was incensed by the imputation that such a thing would happen, however, a chap I knew quite well had done just that and eventually married the lady.

Old Duffer

[Hipper]

We also told the wives that if the husband died at home, that she had to dress him in uniform and push him outside the door. Then she had to ring the Duty Officer and say that her husband hadn't come home from the base yet, and where was he?

That way he would be covered by the equivalent of worker's compensation, as he was still officially on the job and hadn't returned home. But might have been an urban myth.

Would this be perhaps so the widow would get a War Widows Pension?

Are aircrew still encouraged to write a letter to their loved ones in case of an accident. My dad died in an RAF plane crash in 1960 and when my mother died years later I found such a letter. I started reading it but didn't think I should read it all so disposed of it.

[Pontius Navigator]

Hipper, never heard of that and knew of enough fatalities in that era.

Old Duffer I know of one where a confirmed bachelor 'collected' a wide and five! I don't know if he was the EO, but car to the same sqn. And another where the wife certainly leant very much on the EO though no impropriety involved.

It is one of the sadest things about a Service death as the survivor is suddenly an outcast among friends, a constant reminder of the vulnerability of their spouses too.

[interpreter]

Sadly, in this world it does not always end with the funeral. In the late 1950s I was a 20 year old Photographic Interpreter Intelligence Officer based at Royal Air Force Episkopi but travelled frequently to the PR squadron at Akrotiri. One day I was asked by the Episkopi Adjutant if I would put in a plea in mitigation on behalf of an airman who was being Court Martialed and charged with theft. Apparently his best friend had been killed in a road accident on his way to Akrotiri and the airman in question had stolen the takings of a collection for the family of the deceased. To add to the extraordinary circumstances he was a regular member at the Episkopi C of E church. However, when I sought out friends, colleagues etc of this airman to secure some positive comment nobody would say anything positive and frequently refused to say anything all. Very unpleasant.

[Pontius Navigator]

Interpreter, nothing to do with deaths but with theft. We had an airman, 1968, who was attached to us pending courts martial. Quite a pleasant and effects young man but because charged with theft from his mates at another unit and was with us for personal safety. No idea what eventually happened.

[Wander00]

Mid 80s, a corporal from N Luffenham sadly knocked off Neatishead R12 building by rotating radar head and killed. Man from HSE turns up at gate and Aunty Joan tells me to go and tell him to take up sex and travel. You could in those days. A few months later Padre from Coltishall, our parent unit, turns up in my office in uniform inc dog collar and wellies.On being asked the obvious question, he tells me he is fed up with the urn with Cpl M L H's ashes still being on the mantel shelf in his office so is going to plant them temporarily in Scottow Cemetery until the soon to be ex Mrs H and the soon to be new Mrs H agree on their final resting place. Probably still there.

[TBM-Legend]

Amazing the number of aircrew watches, flying jackets, boots etc are written off after a prang...

[Ogre]

No tale to tell of my own, but reading these and the effort to sanitise personal effect made me wonder what happens to email and soft copy documentation these days? Is an account closed and deleted, or archived?

I can see how official documentation may be required to be kept (1st RO writing assessment reports etc) but what about personal stuff? Does someone have to go through their email account?

[Pontius Navigator]

Ogre, a personal work email account is protected by a unique password. The storage system used to be in the work station with server storage either on or off base and a hierarchical backup system. Whilst I was able to have a document recovered from back up I don't know the process for accessing a closed account. Access would necessarily be at server level with authorisation at a fairly high level.

Regarding personal electronic devices you are talking privacy issues, things that the deceased may not have wanted to be seen by NOK on the one hand to things like banking details that they would not want to be seen by 'cleaners '. Tricky one. A similar conundrum is private off-base persons things. On a different forum I have seen advice to give a trusted friend a key, access, and instructions.

[Hipper]

My father's death in a crash was August 12th 1960 and at that time we lived in a house in the married quarters. I was seven at the time and it was the school holidays so my brothers and I were playing outside. The crash, shortly after take off, occurred at another station at around 1000am, which was probably a good thing as we lived opposite the runway.

From what my mother told me, about midday the Squadron Leader came round along with the wife of the pilot. We children were parked with our next door neighbours as the three of them went off to tell the other wives. We eventually left the base in early November, so about three months. She never mentioned any pressure to leave but of course that doesn't mean there wasn't any.

One good thing my parents had done was subscribed to the RAF Benevolent Fund. My mother had found a house costing £4,800 but only had the money for half of that. The fund gave her the rest in an interest free loan with no fixed date to pay back (she did of course pay it back later). In those days it was very hard for single women to get mortgages even if they had a job. Indeed single mothers were still not looked at well by some whatever the reasons.

I shall always be grateful to the RAF Benevolent Fund for the help they gave my mother.

[Pontius Navigator]

Hipper, thank you for sharing that. The RAFBF would help in any case of subscribers.

[Wander00]

Funny how the poor corporal's full name has remained in my memory ever since - now what did I have for breakfast - but what is breakfast.......

[MPN11]

Funny how the poor corporal's full name has remained in my memory ever since - now what did I have for breakfast - but what is breakfast.......Same way I can recall the full name of the bloody Canberra pilot (DGMH) who stole my girlfriend in Singapore in 1969, which eventually led to me marrying my first wife :(

[Fareastdriver]

Bl@@dy smooth talking aircrew.

[ORAC]

Leaving keys in locker when going flying - and wedding rings when going on detachment?.........

[teeteringhead]

Thread drift alert: On the subject of robbing mates, I am reminde of a tale told by an old chum (now sadly deceased) who was at the time a shiny new PARA 2nd Lt.

Being keen, he decided on a no-notice block inspection, sensibly intending to take his Troop Sgt (apologies if wrong title) along with him. Tp Sgt tries to dissuade him, but he is adamant.

On his inspection, he finds a PARA sat on his bed, with his hand palm down on his bedside locker; hand firmly attached to bedside locker by commando-type dagger through hand!!

2nd Lt: "WTF!!!"

Tp Sgt: "Theft from a comrade Sir ........ he won't do it again,"

[Pontius Navigator]

Touching on the theft aspects and police investigation. I was once roped in as the concept observing officer during a police examination of this airman's room. Most were 2-4 bunk rooms but he had his to h himself. He was present as was I as the police literally tore it to pieces. A most unedifying experience as no evidence was uncovered but clearly the Siena was not popular.

[MPN11]

As we, as ever, stray from the original and delicate subject ...
I was asked to accept an airman on discharge from Colchester. He had fallen into a ‘bad crowd’ with drinking and a bit of violence. At interview on arrival [I was up for the challenge] he said something along the lines of “Watching guys shaving their blankets for something to smoke convinced me I was NEVER going there again.” He turned out to be a very good SAC, and got good ACRs. I like to think he kept on track, and got promoted.

[MPN11]

And I had a ‘theft from a comrade’ too, albeit less dramatic. Moment of stupidity by a good lad, who lifted the wallet from the guy in the next room/bunk in a moment of stupidity. I think the stn cdr gave him 28 days in the ‘holiday camp’. Very humbled on return to Unit but essentially a good lad.

I gave him a minor bollocking once, to be responded with a cheery “Sorry, Boss, I will be a good ni**er.” All I could say, whilst giggling, was “Oh, sod off, S****”.

[Brian 48nav]

MPN11,

I just couldn't help myself - I have a history of one of the Tengah Canberra squadrons and remembered seeing a photo' of the aircrew dated Sept' '68. There is a DGMH there, and of course judging by his good looks he was a nav' ! Nowhere near as bad as losing her to one of the 2-winged master race!!

[MPN11]

Oh, thanks for the enlightenment! I feel better now that I know she married a ... N*******r :D

[India Four Two]

I’m intrigued by Hipper’s post about the RAFBF.

I had always thought it was a charity, but his post implies it’s more like an insurance policy.

Do only “subscribers” get benefits?

[BARKINGMAD]

Somewhere during my time with Beth Windsor's Flying Club I recall hearing of the squadron mates' practice of moving the car, by whatever means, off the station so's the widow/family could use it whilst the Mills of God would grind sure but slow to the date where she could legally take it off site.

Alas, allegedly, on at least one occasion the unfortunate widow was alerted to her new status by the sight of the car being pushed out of the Married Quarters site by a flying suited brigade but before the official notification had been delivered.................

Earth open up and swallow us please ! ! ! ! !

Tragic for all concerned.

[Pontius Navigator]

India four two, I already answered your Q, it benefits anyone in the family.

[Hipper]

Sorry, maybe I got it wrong regarding the Benevolent Fund, but that is what my mother told me, using the word 'subscribed'.

[rcsa]

Regarding personal electronic devices you are talking privacy issues, things that the deceased may not have wanted to be seen by NOK on the one hand to things like banking details that they would not want to be seen by 'cleaners '. Tricky one. A similar conundrum is private off-base persons things. On a different forum I have seen advice to give a trusted friend a key, access, and instructions.

Can I suggest that this problem is best addressed by putting information that would be useful to surviving relatives (bank access codes etc) in one's Will; and at the same time, defining clearly there what is to be done with one's electronic/digital devices and data.

[Pontius Navigator]

Sorry, maybe I got it wrong regarding the Benevolent Fund, but that is what my mother told me, using the word 'subscribed'.
Nothing wrong there Hipper and certainly a prevailing view at the time. One subscriber benefit was their insurance advisory service. In those days they could analyse your funny and recommended suitable insurance. In particular flying risk extra and loss of flying pay were both niche product that they were expert on. Then the FCA or other financial regulator controlled the industry and the RAFBF decided that such advice was outside its competence; a crying shame.

[Pontius Navigator]

Can I suggest that this problem is best addressed by putting information that would be useful to surviving relatives (bank access codes etc) in one's Will; and at the same time, defining clearly there what is to be done with one's electronic/digital devices and data.
On your first advice, that is very sound. Your latter is impracticable.

By the time of the will of could be too late. Personal electronic items will have been impounded, seized, examined, or handed over to NOK. Once you are gone you have lost all control of such devices. If you wish to keep secret clandestine affairs, illegal or illicit photographs, private text messages, private phone numbers, the solution is simpler - DON'T

[Wander00]

PN - RAFBF Insurance Advice - brilliant, then along came not only more regulation but also Equitable Life.......

[West Coast]

A bit macabre, but mention on another thread promoted a thought.

Two car ownership back in the 60s was not common with the husband using the family car to get to work. Sadly crashes were common. Honest must-read all a casualties on-base possessions were impounded for security, this was said to include the family car this leaving the widow stranded.

It was rumoured that one's mates would take urgent steps to get the car off-base before it could be impounded.

Was this true? If it was, is it true today?

I also remember one EGM to write off a liver-in's fairly large mess bill. This was large as it included the previous month's bill too that should have been paid. The current bill was written off on the nod but there was a vigorous debate on previous month though decency prevailed and it was written off too.

The cars of a couple squadron mates killed in a crash sat in the parking lot for the better part of the month after their passing. Both were single, so no spouse in need of the vehicles. It was very eerie passing the cars on an almost daily basis.