View Full Version : Shannon FIR closed
tubby linton
2nd Oct 2018, 22:01
The FIR has suffered a complete radar failure and has instituted a zero rate until 2300z
firewall
2nd Oct 2018, 22:55
The FIR has suffered a complete radar failure and has instituted a zero rate until 2300z
what happened to procedural control.
Markos.
2nd Oct 2018, 22:58
what happened to procedural control.
+1
don't they have a contingency/ back-up plan?
theexpandingman
2nd Oct 2018, 23:00
I don't believe they have any controllers that can operate procedural control
RoyHudd
2nd Oct 2018, 23:22
If so, that is pathetic. Shannon do not warrant nav charges if that is the case.
Not Long Now
3rd Oct 2018, 09:05
I think you'll find London and Scottish FIRs would be in the same boat. Procedural fallback has not been an option for at the very least 25+ years.
The Fat Controller
3rd Oct 2018, 12:10
The only area unit in the UK or Ireland that has a procedural fallback is Oceanic.
I started at Prestwick Centre in 1991, there has never been a procedural fallback since way before that date.
This makes me wonder whether Ireland needs to enforce ADS-B use, as Australia already does. Area-wide radar is looking a bit old-fashioned at this point. There should be no single point of failure in such a critical function.
The Fat Controller
3rd Oct 2018, 12:26
@bnt, it all depends on what actually failed.
If the data feed to all the displays was lost ( remember that my PC friends ! ) with the radars or ADS receivers still working, you are still stuffed.
Sounds like the system is still in a failure mode, and whilst flights are operating normally,the system itself is running in contingency mode.Statement from the Irish Aviation Authority: 08:10 – October 3The IAA continues to investigate the technical issue which occurred in Shannon Airport last evening. Services to and from Shannon and Cork are operating normally on the IAA’s Shannon back-up system.
The IAA’s Dublin system was unaffected and Dublin flights are operating normally. The Dublin system is independent of the Shannon system.
https://www.iaa.ie/news/2018/10/03/statement-from-the-iaa-08-10-october-3
red.sky@night
3rd Oct 2018, 14:08
@BNT : https://www.iaa.ie/air-traffic-management/international-industry-partnerships/aireon
The only area unit in the UK or Ireland that has a procedural fallback is Oceanic.
I started at Prestwick Centre in 1991, there has never been a procedural fallback since way before that date.
The procedural capability effectively disappeared when the Scottish Centre moved from Redbrae to Atlantic House a move which completed in 1978.
@BNT : https://www.iaa.ie/air-traffic-management/international-industry-partnerships/aireon
Thanks - so it's coming, eventually.
I took the "radar" bit of the report literally i.e. as a failure of the radar itself, not any of the IT systems between the dish and the controllers!
ATC Watcher
3rd Oct 2018, 21:38
This makes me wonder whether Ireland needs to enforce ADS-B use, as Australia already does. Area-wide radar is looking a bit old-fashioned at this point. There should be no single point of failure in such a critical function.
You realize that 90% of today's ATC Facilities failures are system ones ( flight plan processing computers or data displays systems ) not the radar antennas. The failures occur regardless of the data source, being SSR antennas, multilateration or ADS-B .
firewall
3rd Oct 2018, 22:37
Were overflights affected? Most at cruise crossing Ireland. Shanwick has no radar coverage beyond 200 miles so oceanic is procedural.
tubby linton
3rd Oct 2018, 23:27
I saw an article which stated that there was a problem with cpdlc so transit traffic would have been affected.
Were overflights affected? Most at cruise crossing Ireland. Shanwick has no radar coverage beyond 200 miles so oceanic is procedural.
Apparently so - The info from our Ops people last night was as stated in the OP, it was the Shannon FIR was effectively closed for all business. We had a couple of planned west-bounds out of LHR last night that were either going to be replanned to avoid Shannon or held on the ground TFN...fortunately the situation improved fairly quickly.
golfyankeesierra
4th Oct 2018, 07:22
Time to send a few controllers to Khartoum for some refresher training in procedural separation. Two weeks should do? :O
ATC Watcher
4th Oct 2018, 08:33
Time to send a few controllers to Khartoum for some refresher training in procedural separation. Two weeks should do? :O
Good one but even Khartoum has radar now, since quite some time even :-)
the_stranger
4th Oct 2018, 08:36
Good one but even Khartoum has radar now, since quite some time even :-)
And ads/cpdlc, although on trial, but it worked last time I was there...
golfyankeesierra
4th Oct 2018, 14:15
Good one but even Khartoum has radar now, since quite some time even :-)
Yes, but only at Khartoum airport and Sudan is a little bit bigger then that. So unless you go down in Khartoum, no radar for you..
Never had the impression that APP and Center talk to each other anyway.
IFBP is still advised over Khartoum. And I still SLOP there.
Irish Aviation Authority Update on Technical Issue 11:30 - October 404 Oct 2018The IAA has confirmed that following a thorough investigation of a technical issue on our primary Air Traffic Control (ATC) system in Ballycasey, County Clare, (which occurred on Tuesday the 2nd of October) the issue has been identified and isolated.
The issue was an irregular software occurrence.
Over the course of last night (3rd – 4th October) the IAA transferred service back to its primary system, which has been restored to full capacity. The IAA continues to provide a full service to airlines and passengers.
Technical experts and the system manufacturer worked tirelessly to identify the issue, research, isolate and to resolve the matter.
When this was completed, a comprehensive testing and safety analysis was carried out to ensure that the system was fit to return to operations. The outcome of this was positive and accordingly operations were transferred back to the primary ATC system last night.
When the technical issue occurred on Tuesday evening, we are satisfied that the back-up system and contingency planning worked as required. This ensured that we restored full service in a safe and timely manner and disruption to aircraft was minimal.
The IAA continues to invest in its state-of-the-art air traffic management system and in the development of our staff, to deliver a world-class service to our airline customers.
We wish to clarify some issues reported in some media outlets:
The technical issue which occurred was not a radar issue.Full radar coverage was maintained at all times.
The technical issue involved a module on our ATC system which affected the performance of this system.The IAA took the decision to move to its back-up systems in order to maintain a full and safe service to aircraft.
The IAA must follow a regulatory procedure when transferring to the back-up system.This procedure ensures safety of operations; however it necessitated the restrictions on traffic flow which occurred on Tuesday evening.
The back-up system is a full replica of the IAA’s main ATC system.This allowed the IAA to provide a full and normal, safe ATC service once transfer to this system was completed.
Another radar outage occurred this morning - not sure whether this was the same system or something specific to Dublin only.
twitter.com/DublinAirport/status/1066267157544218624
From Eurocontrol
EIDW (Dublin)
The earlier radar issue is now in a recovery phase and the zero rate has been cancelled however arrivals remain regulated with a reduced rate and delays are moderate to high
until 1300utc.
NM are monitoring the situation and will update accordingly.
Hotel Tango
24th Nov 2018, 14:27
what happened to procedural control.
Be realistic. Do you have any idea of what procedural control entails and how useless it would be in much of today's saturated European airspace? Even if it was an option, in much of the airspace the acceptance rate would be a tiny and negligible fraction of that available in a radar environment.
Tech Guy
24th Nov 2018, 16:42
The issue was an irregular software occurrence.
Thats a rather good way of putting it. I will remember that for future use. :)
firewall
24th Nov 2018, 18:03
Hotel tango My comment was in relation to traffic transiting Shannon mostly oceanic which are outside radar coverage for most of the crossing. Of course traffic would be restricted but not to zero. And yes I do know what procedural control entails having worked in that environment .
Hotel Tango
25th Nov 2018, 01:11
firewall, I suspect that the overflying oceanic traffic, would have continued as planned. There are however also multiple non oceanic traffic climbing and descending which in this day and age is a very different cup of tea to control procedurally. I worked in a procedural ATCC back in the late 60s when the volume (and speed in many cases) of traffic was a great deal less than today. Then there's the question of training and maintaining currency for an event which is likely to occur only once in a blue moon. No, the best solution is that which was taken.