Malindo Magic

[TimmyTee]

Did anyone else yesterday morning hear tower questions Malindo on departure out of MEL?

Departing rwy 34 like everyone else, but just decided ‘’nuts to the SID, let’s just turn hard left as soon as airborne”.

Had the scanner up and heard tower ask them “where are you going?”, followed by absolute silence.
Finally a response, we are going to Indonesia. When asked why did they turn left instead of continuing straight, they explained that they were tracking for ATNOL. Correct SID, wrong runway.
You could hear the absolute shock in the voice of Mr Tower.

Insane considering there could have easily been traffic on downwind for 34 at the time they blasted through it..

This is why I tell my loved ones to pick again when choosing a carrier to Bali..

[TimmyTee]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1973x1316/3bb6dfa2_95ed_45f4_8fa9_29549efdb62f_05eb8957d4c2e8a8fe0bcc0 1b44fba736dc5f4b2.jpeg

[Toruk Macto]

Notice a non standard call from tower creeping in “ clear to line up , confirm SID “ maybe not in Australia ( yet) Good time to thank Mr TCAS .

[PoppaJo]

They are a ticking timebomb. There isn’t much more to say.

Satefy appears irrelevant to our regulator. One other loco has broken enough rules in my book for a permanent ban from flying here, and even after the downing on one jet and a dozen odd stuff ups, it appears it’s all just politics getting in the way of safety.

[WingNut60]

Sired by Lion?
​​​​​​​Shows its breeding

[TimmyTee]

To the guys and girls who fly the 737 on here, how many chances would have these guys had to identify their mistake leading up to applying thrust? How would the departure even look on the flight display? 90 degree turn at rotation?
All movements were on 34 due to the strong northerlys, so how they planned a 27 departure is puzzling.

The scariest part was their lack of understanding or corrective action even after quizzed by ATC as to what they were up to and why they had turned. Maybe they were doing a return duty and were highly fatigued (if that’s even possible?) - how else could one explain the complete lack of awareness?

[Jeps]

Safety appears irrelevant to our regulator. One other loco has broken enough rules in my book for a permanent ban from flying here, and even after the downing on one jet and a dozen odd stuff ups, it appears it’s all just politics getting in the way of safety.

Couldn't agree more. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. It's random error with them as well. Poorly handled OEI one day, descent below MSA another and wrong data input causing a left turn into the path of the parallel runway the next.

[Icarus2001]

So are the Australian pilot unions writing to the regulator?

Is the ATSB expressing concern?

[PoppaJo]

So are the Australian pilot unions writing to the regulator?

Is the ATSB expressing concern?

I have written countless personal letters citing examples and my own personal ‘experiences’ on the line with certain third world operators. I have got workshopped answers to all letters. I have spoken/written to senior members of the industry being regulatory, political, operational, legal and so on. All responses claim investigations have taken place, heightened checks are underway.

My conclusion is a banning or termination of certain a foreign operators license is purely because the government does not want these countries offside. Trade deals are ahead of lives and our safety.

They are a danger to themselves, but more a danger to other pilots in our airspace. I want them out. Nobody seems to care.

[Berealgetreal]

A thorough briefing on the gate no doubt. Tracks, legs, distances all cross checked. This followed by FO judiciously looking around the cockpit during taxi to pick up anything missed.

You could imagine how things would go if they had weather and a non normal.

Sounds more like a bunch of teenagers flying flightsim over a couple of beers.

Just imagine what goes on that we don’t know about. Anyway I just hope they remembered to say climb via SID to 6000.

[gulliBell]

Having spent 3 years as a TRI at a Part 142 training organization training Indonesian ATP licensed pilots, nothing surprises me....well, sometimes they do something that is so mind boggling that I am surprised...including just take hands off the flight controls and leave the outcome to Allah...many I've seen would not pass a PPL flight test in Australia.

[Capt Fathom]

Having spent 3 years as a TRI at a Part 142 training organization training Indonesian ATP licensed pilots
Is that Helicopters or Fixed Wing gulliBell?

[linedriva]

There was obviously some serious errors made by the crew, but having the same SID identifier for multiple runways could have been a factor. Why not use NEVIS 6A for 34 and NEVIS 6B for runway 27, for example. Seems to work in other parts of the world.

I'm not suggesting that would have prevented the errors, but it might just have trapped it.

[gulliBell]

Is that Helicopters or Fixed Wing gulliBell?

It's cultural. Applies equally to both.

[1a sound asleep]

They are Malaysian not Indonesian

[gulliBell]

They are Malaysian not Indonesian

I've trained both...on average one is streets ahead of the other...

[donpizmeov]

There was obviously some serious errors made by the crew, but having the same SID identifier for multiple runways could have been a factor. Why not use NEVIS 6A for 34 and NEVIS 6B for runway 27, for example. Seems to work in other parts of the world.

I'm not suggesting that would have prevented the errors, but it might just have trapped it.


An unemotional look at the event and a suggestion of how to stop it happening again . You're not Australian are you?

[The Bullwinkle]

There was obviously some serious errors made by the crew, but having the same SID identifier for multiple runways could have been a factor. Why not use NEVIS 6A for 34 and NEVIS 6B for runway 27, for example. Seems to work in other parts of the world.

I'm not suggesting that would have prevented the errors, but it might just have trapped it.

Is there really a need for that on the Boeing 737-800?
When the runway is entered into the FMC, the SID will show the appropriate legs for a departure off that runway.
If you subsequently have a runway change, once you enter the new runway, the legs on the SID change accordingly.
Of course, if you haven’t bothered changing the runway in the FMC, well that’s an entirely different story!

[bazza stub]

Saftey......Blah blah blah. If one of these carriers torpedoes someone in the circuit, the Government will just cry a whole lot of crocodile tears and accept a heartfelt apology from the leader of the offending nation and it will be business as usual.

[krismiler]

Malindo is Malaysian but part of the Indonesian Lionair group. There is also a Thai Lionair, same group but different AOC.

Tokyo, Narita airport clears the aircraft to the initial SID waypoint on departure when simultaneous parallel operations are in progress. Given the number of errors taking place, especially with a last minute runway change, it might be worth making it a standard practice.

[linedriva]

donpizmeov - I am actually an Aussie - it says so on my passport! Lol

The Bullwinkle - I agree. Just trying to block a hole in the swiss cheese, regardless of aircraft type. Poor crew discipline will always find new ones though....

[Karunch]

But most importantly, did they readback 'climb via sid' to ACD?

[hoss]

Melbourne are notorious for last minute runway changes, was this a factor?

[Australopithecus]

I too find it odd that a SID designator for a particular runway may have one defined track that is different to the same named SID for another runway.

On another cultural note: I have wondered what technology Malindo has on their aircraft that allows them to reliably land in BNE during dense fog events that send other airliners to their alternates from the missed approach. One of their pilots assured me that it was solely the effect of the low fuel lights that sharpened the senses and honed the visual acuity. Maybe we should do that?

[TimmyTee]

Melbourne are notorious for last minute runway changes, was this a factor?

‘Twas strong northerlies all morning and 09/27 was closed for works from the evening before.

[Icarus2001]

I too find it odd that a SID designator for a particular runway may have one defined track that is different to the same named SID for another runway.

Surely by definition...?

[Centaurus]

Maybe we should do that?

Adjusting the QNH on the captains altimeter to a more "friendly" figure can also help in low visibility...

[JPJP]

Tokyo, Narita airport clears the aircraft to the initial SID waypoint on departure when simultaneous parallel operations are in progress. Given the number of errors taking place, especially with a last minute runway change, it might be worth making it a standard practice.

Same in the U.S. - “RNAV to Fix Name. Runway blah blah cleared for takeoff”. PM reads it back off the legs page in the FMS. At least this way you know that you’ve got the first fix correct.


Is there really a need for that on the Boeing 737-800?When the runway is entered into the FMC, the SID will show the appropriate legs for a departure off that runway.If you subsequently have a runway change, once you enter the new runway, the legs on the SID change accordingly. Of course, if you haven’t bothered changing the runway in the FMC, well that’s an entirely different story!

Yup. It takes a lot of work to put a SID in that’s incorrect for the runway. It’s possible to screw up the transition though (don’t ask ;) I think your point about not changing the runway is interesting.

[krismiler]

At least this way you know that you’ve got the first fix correct.

This is obviously the critical one as an error can have you doing a hard turn once airborne, straight into the departure or go around path of another runway. It’s happened before in Sydney.

[GA Driver]

Tokyo, Narita airport clears the aircraft to the initial SID waypoint on departure when simultaneous parallel operations are in progress. Given the number of errors taking place, especially with a last minute runway change, it might be worth making it a standard practice.

Agreed, however the amount of additional crap thats required on Australian radios, I'd be reluctant to suggest any more. The idea of a different SID identifier, A/B or a different name entirelyis the key here.

"Via the Star to the IAF, thence the ILS to the Runway and then taxi on the taxiways to the stand... whilst not hitting anything enroute." "Just confirm cleared to land in there....."

[maggot]

This is obviously the critical one as an error can have you doing a hard turn once airborne, straight into the departure or go around path of another runway. It’s happened before in Sydney.

Or discovery bay

[Transition Layer]

The only good thing about not having the different identifier for each runway is when you get a runway change you don’t need to be issued with an entirely new SID clearance. Funnily enough it’s Melbourne that springs to mind when you plan on 34 but 27 becomes available at the last minute and can save time when heading west.

[The Bullwinkle]

Funnily enough it’s Melbourne that springs to mind when you plan on 34 but 27 becomes available at the last minute and can save time when heading west.
But now you can still save time when heading West by departing off Runway 34 and using the newly introduced “Malindo 1” departure.

Track 340 degrees.
As soon as practicable turn LEFT, track direct to Atnol.
​​

[Toruk Macto]

Track 340 degrees.
As soon as practicable turn LEFT, track direct to Atnol.

agree . Maintain RWY HDG and contact departures . Min radar vector alt and it’s direct to a point 300 nm away . Only thing I’d add is first cleared alt be terrain safe in case of failure .

[wheels_down]

Not worthy of a ATSB investigation? Or are they asleep at the wheel again report released in 2050?

[RAC/OPS]

Just imagine what goes on that we don’t know about. Anyway I just hope they remembered to say climb via SID to 6000.

ah yes, the final check to make sure everything’s right, double check what each other is doing and you’ll never get it wrong......it’s 5000 at Melbourne!

[Beer Baron]

Surely additional calls or procedures are not needed to protect against this sort of incident. How about doing the basics like briefing the departure off the chart while the other pilot checks the legs?? There is no way you could make this error if they had done that. And what about the fact that when lining up on the runway the map display on the ND shows the runway icon about a mile north of you and perpendicular to your track!!

As mentioned, the MEL departures are not RWY specific and neither is the airways clearance, which may have something to do with the propensity for ATC to change runway configuration at the drop of a hat. But in the 737 all you need to do is change the runway in the FMC and it will change to the appropriate SID. Obviously you must still check and brief the current runway departure. (Plus performance, E/O procedure, etc)

You can’t just keep adding procedural backstops because some pilots can’t be bothered or can’t remember to do the basics of their job.

[73qanda]

I agree with Beer B.
If a crew is not getting the very basics of modern aviation right, then adding a specific band aid for a specific cock-up that’s already happened is achieving little more than increasing the ATCO’s workload and cluttering the frequency. They will continue not getting the very basics of modern aviation right, it will just show in other ways.
The answer is to boot Airlines out of our airspace if they have too many incidents but we can see from recent history that nobody has the courage to act.

[zanthrus]

You can teach monkeys to fly better than that!

[Transition Layer]

But now you can still save time when heading West by departing off Runway 34 and using the newly introduced “Malindo 1” departure.

Track 340 degrees.
As soon as practicable turn LEFT, track direct to Atnol.
​​


“Request Malindo 1” - Gold! :D

[gulliBell]

ah yes, the final check to make sure everything’s right, double check what each other is doing and you’ll never get it wrong....

My experience as a TRI in the simulator with Indonesian and (to a lesser extent) Malaysian crews. One guy will fly it into the ground and the other guy will just sit there and not say or do anything to alter that outcome. And it doesn't matter who is driving, Captain or FO. I've seen it happen time and time again. It's totally mind boggling to see one guy crash a perfectly good aeroplane whilst his buddy is busy looking for the right page on a checklist, or otherwise doesn't give a toss about his own life or those of the passengers.

[Berealgetreal]

5000 or 6000 is nothing compared to what pilots have to put up with flying into and out of Melbourne. Makes every other city like a fun day out.

[RAC/OPS]

As mentioned, the MEL departures are not RWY specific and neither is the airways clearance, which may have something to do with the propensity for ATC to change runway configuration at the drop of a hat....

I think the explanation for runway changes have been covered ad nauseum in other threads however I’ll say it again here. ATC cannot nominate (or continue to use) a runway which has in excess of 20kt crosswind or 5kt tailwind - or any tailwind if the runway is not dry. These are not rules that we like but we are stuck with them until our customers pressure airservices or CASA to change them. CASA, the airlines, the insurance companies, and lawyers (and most of the experts on here) will have our arses if there is an incident where disregard of those rules could have possibly played a part.

I always specify the runway as part part of the clearance (runway 34 Keppa 1 departure) or say ‘information November, runway 34, cleared to....’ etc on clearance delivery but the vagaries of Melbourne weather, or TMA requesting LAHSO may mean that the runway will change before you push back. As an aside the ATIS may have been nominating a runway configuration for an hour or more and some pilots are still surprised that they’re not for 34 when given taxy instructions.

[Centaurus]

Judging by the flight path displayed on the Google map. Looks like the PF ripped into a smart climbing left turn blindly chasing the FD needles within seconds of rotation. Be hilarious if it wasn't so serious..

[Bankstown Boy]

Or simply engaged autopilot, without thought, after rotation.
Smells of children of the magenta line to me.

[fdr]

Judging by the flight path displayed on the Google map. Looks like the PF ripped into a smart climbing left turn blindly chasing the FD needles within seconds of rotation. Be hilarious if it wasn't so serious..

repaint the radome as a red nose.

[wheels_down]

AirAsia did the same thing in Sydney. Switched on the AP soon as wheels off the ground and it just followed where the crew incorrectly programmed it to go. They didn’t know any wiser. Thank Christ the tower had eyes on it drifting over to 16L.

Seems to be a lack of basic knowledge around the basic operations of a circuit. Malindo turned into the downwind leg of 34, assumed all standard? AirAsia turned left over 16l with traffic on approach/rolling down the runway.

[mrdeux]

AirAsia did the same thing in Sydney. Switched on the AP soon as wheels off the ground and it just followed where the crew incorrectly programmed it to go. They didn’t know any wiser. Thank Christ the tower had eyes on it drifting over to 16L.


I thought their effort was even better. The IRUs were aligned on a point thousands of miles away, and they had the maps in plan mode, 'cos that was the only way they could see Sydney....

[fdr]

I thought their effort was even better. The IRUs were aligned on a point thousands of miles away, and they had the maps in plan mode, 'cos that was the only way they could see Sydney....

Mr D; my ribs are hurting from laughing, thanks.

Two "first world airlines" had fun with stuff like that. One lot decided to do an instant align at the holding point, for an aircraft with a TOGA Map updating function, which raised the eyebrows of the FO, the newbie but senior driver having just reached up above his head and cycled the IRS to do the quick align. At which time, ATC gave them an immediate TO clearance. The restrained FO started to say they couldn't accept the TO clearance, but the driver pursued the setting sun, and departed. At rotate, the driver was surprised to have no attitude, and no map. It was a nice day to float around VMC dumping 100T of dino sauce. The other guys got warnings on align, and reinserted the existing position without crosschecking. At liftoff, the map of course was set at the position of the manufacturers factory, some 7000nm away. 50T later the guys got to do it all again from the same place.

The compass/map check on entering or linei up saves some messing about.

[PoppaJo]

Attention CASA.

Ban these bastards.

QZ8501 now we have JT610. Another 189 dead.

I have written once this year to you regarding this carrier and I will be writing again.

I don't want any carrier within this airline group within Australian Airspace.

Not only are they a risk to themselves, they are a risk to my crew and passengers operating within the same airspace as them.

[TULSAMI]

CASA must take action if they have any integrity, enough is enough. Peoples lives before Canberra Politics.

[Jeps]

Here here. I'm not one to knee jerk but the ban should cover its subsidiaries (Malindo) and be effective immediately. They are a joke and an embarrassment. Can anyone honestly say they are surprised?

[Octane]

Attention CASA.

Ban these bastards.

QZ8501 now we have JT610. Another 189 dead.

I have written once this year to you regarding this carrier and I will be writing again.

I don't want any carrier within this airline group within Australian Airspace.

Not only are they a risk to themselves, they are a risk to my crew and passengers operating within the same airspace as them.
LionAir JT 610 crashed 6 hours ago but you already "know" it's due to pilot error. Get a grip...

[TBM-Legend]

Two things: Many moons ago last century a charter pilot in Brisbane one evening entered ROME not ROMA in the GPS and started heading off in the wrong direction. When quired by ATC confirmed he was going to Roma...oops and he wasn't Indonesian. A Euro contact in Indonesia who owns an airline there, operating B737's, just sent me a message saying "the engine manufacturers will be checking their insurances!"...

[Toruk Macto]

Big business trumps politics , they won’t get banned .

[CurtainTwitcher]

Big business trumps is politics , they won’t get banned .

Fixed it for you.
Though a US study, it is likely to be true here as well: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens (https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/62327F513959D0A304D4893B382B992B/S1537592714001595a.pdf/testing_theories_of_american_politics_elites_interest_groups _and_average_citizens.pdf)

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/684x1500/screen_shot_2018_10_29_at_5_56_52_pm_6d95621c23908cf8ec2fbae 1ff9c8cfa0c24c5d6.png

[Cloudee]

This is from the DFAT smart traveller website. Perhaps CASA will read this and also take some action.

https://smartraveller.gov.au/Countries/asia/south-east/Pages/indonesia.aspx

"Following the fatal crash of a Lion Air plane on 29 October 2018, Australian government officials and contractors have been instructed not to fly on Lion Air or their subsidiary airlines. This decision will be reviewed when the findings of the crash investigation are clear (see Local travel). The level of our advice has not changed. Exercise a high degree of caution in Indonesia overall, including Bali. Higher levels apply in Central Sulawesi and Papua provinces."

[Jeps]

As was mentioned in another thread this outfit has a safety score comparable to QF on airlineratings.com so I am completely satisfied.

[Rated De]

As was mentioned in another thread this outfit has a safety score comparable to QF on airlineratings.com so I am completely satisfied.

Do they have a 'Chairman's lounge' too? /sarc

[Onesixty2four]

Last August I was stuck trying to get to Bali having been booted off a flight using staff travel. Ended up going to MEL and jumped on a Malindo flight the next morning. On a 6:40 flight the seatbelt sign was on for perhaps 5:50 on a flight that was glass smooth the vast majority of the time. Having flown many years in Asia, I know this to be a sure sign (excuse the pun) of a poor commander. Basically, the mind set appears to be rather than make a decision (on/off) the default setting is to leave it on, therefore always be "covered". Whether this is due to a poor understanding of weather radar or simply an inability to stand by your own command experience I don't know. But, whatever the case, if a minor decision like that is beyond the abilites of the crew, God forbid if real, game changing decisions have to be made.

When we finally arrived in Bali (good weather, dry runway) the "landing" was so poor I honestly thought we were going to be another runway excursion statistic. Sideways, full braking, no braking, sideways the other way, full braking again, etc..... When the plane finally came to a smoking halt, my 5 year old daughter said "That was great fun daddy, just like a roller coaster". Never again.

[Mud Skipper]

Has anyone seen a report on the Malindo departure from Melbourne Rwy 34, 27th September 2018.

I thought it would warrant a mention on Aviation Herald or at the least the ATSB website.

Following the Lion Air crash and all its coverage, I’m surprised the press hasn’t picked up on this serious incident so close to home.

[PoppaJo]

Mud.

The Australian (paywall) picked it up but yet to see anything about this from the safety bodies.

I assume the Journo picked up the story on this site.

Malindo is Malaysian based so there must be important deals between governments underway currently which is why it probably hasn’t been reported. Politics always ahead of Safety.

The Lion Air Group has a significant presence in Australia through two of its subsidiaries, Malindo Air and Batik Air, and it plans to increase capacity in the next year.

Yesterday, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority said the Lion Air crash would be taken into account when conducting safety checks on Malindo and Batik Air.

Until there was more information about why the two-month-old Boeing 737-8 Max crashed, CASA would not be rushing into any extra inspections

The Malaysia-registered Malindo Air flies into Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth from Kuala Lumpur and Denpasar, while Batik Air operates into Perth from Bali. Malindo also has traffic rights to operate into Adelaide and is believed to be seeking slots in Sydney.

Last month, a Malindo Air flight from Melbourne to Den*pasar was involved in an incident when the aircraft turned in the wrong direction on takeoff, creating a potentially dangerous situation for incoming flights.

Questions from air traffic control revealed the pilot thought he was on a different runway and had programmed the flight path accordingly.

Despite that incident, Malindo Air carries the maximum seven star safety rating on airline*ratings.com.au, as does Batik Air.

As of April this year, Lion Air had 243 737 Max planes on order, as it undergoes expansion.

Former Boeing 777 airline captain Byron Bailey said such expansion was causing a shortage of qualified pilots equipped to handle emergency situations.

Aviation consultant Neil Hansford said there was an issue with airline pilots being put straight on to the most sophisticated aircraft, rather than working their way up from turboprops to small jet aircraft and then larger jets. But he said in the Lion Air crash, it would appear the pilot did all the right things.

“Thirteen minutes into his flight he’s at 5000 feet, then he’s dropped to 2000 and called to return,” Mr Hansford said.

“At least we can rule out any sort of malicious act by the pilot.”

[ferris]

But he said in the Lion Air crash, it would appear the pilot did all the right things. Wow. Is there a prize for the stupidest statement made by "experts" and blithely reported in the press?