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View Full Version : The return of a man with a red flag


Nervous SLF
26th Sep 2018, 07:42
The way the person in this article talks it will only be a matter of just a few years before the man with a red flag will be back
walking in front of cars.He wants the speed limit in Auckland to be reduced to 30 KPH ( 18 MPH ). He even has some support
believe it or not.
"Auckland Transport has confirmed plans to make the CBD a 30km/h speed limit, which has been welcomed with open arms by
one enthusiastic Aucklander".

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/the-cyclist-who-wants-all-auckland-drivers-to-go-30km-h/ar-AAAEl1L?li=BBqdk7Q
:\

Pontius Navigator
26th Sep 2018, 07:52
As is happening in many places in UK with the unintended consequence of more accidents. Drivers have more time to window shop, light a fag, drink a coffee etc. Pedestrians think they have more time to cross the road etc. OK the consequences may be less severe but . . .

Krystal n chips
26th Sep 2018, 08:17
As is happening in many places in UK with the unintended consequence of more accidents. Drivers have more time to window shop, light a fag, drink a coffee etc. Pedestrians think they have more time to cross the road etc. OK the consequences may be less severe but . . .

It's possibly not a good idea to relate driving, well deaths portal more like, in Lincs .......to the rest of the UK....



https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2015/03/lincolnshires-roads-most-dangerous-in-the-country-report-finds/

Uplinker
26th Sep 2018, 08:54
I notice that the cyclist advocating lower “safer” speed limits is not wearing a Hi-Viz vest in either of the pictures.

Any vehicle driver knows how ‘invisible’ cyclists can be in modern traffic, and although many cyclists wear helmets, and lights; by not also wearing a Hi-Viz vest they are many times more likely to get hit and knocked over by a vehicle in the first place.

I grow weary of the airport ramp Hi-Viz police who will fine you if your vest is dirty or not done up fully etc, but in my humble opinion, anyone riding a bike in modern traffic without wearing a Hi-Viz vest is being extremely foolish and taking a huge unecessary risk.

Low speed limits past schools are reasonable, but speed itself is not the problem. The problem is poor driving, poor attention and people using their phones while driving etc. As has been mentioned, very low speed limits will probably “enable” drivers to believe that they can look at their phone safely, since they are only moving slowly.

Sallyann1234
26th Sep 2018, 09:18
Nothing new there. Some London Boroughs already have a limit of 20mph - 32kph.
Certain main through roads are still 30mph, which means there is a profusion of speed signs. You have to spot them all and remember which was the last you passed. It's very distracting if you have the misfortune to need to visit the wretched place.

SOPS
26th Sep 2018, 09:42
We had some Academic Idiot at conference in Australia, recently, seriously suggest that speed limits in surburban ares be lowered to 15kph. When he was interviewed about it on talk back radio, most callers to the station suggested he should take his stupid ideas back to where he came from.

Ogre
26th Sep 2018, 10:00
Nothing new there. Some London Boroughs already have a limit of 20mph - 32kph.
Certain main through roads are still 30mph, which means there is a profusion of speed signs. You have to spot them all and remember which was the last you passed. It's very distracting if you have the misfortune to need to visit the wretched place.

The last time I was in London the speed limit in a lot of places was 20 mph. But that was due to the volume of traffic, not any local regulations

ExSp33db1rd
26th Sep 2018, 10:34
Our NZ town/village " CBD ", has introduced a 30kph speed limit. Total waste of time, the Hoons who took no notice of the 50 kph limit take no notice of the 30 kph limit either. Slowing down to 20kph when passing a stationary school bus has the effect of teaching children that all traffic will slow down when they alight from a bus - so how suddenly dead will they be on their first day at work, when they alight from a regular bus and surpise., surprise, the traffic doesn't slow down for them ? Children aspire to be Adults, so teach them to respect roads and traffic as adults have to, not be "entitled' to special treatment. Today I drove past our local school, entering the "40 kph when children present" zone. At 10.00 am, when all the children were in class, were they "present" ?

CargoMatatu
26th Sep 2018, 10:49
I think a lot are missing the point here.

It was never put forward as a measure to prevent accidents. As stated above, those who exceed limits will continue to do so, and accidents will still happen.

The idea is that when the inevitable accidents occur the damage and injuries are marginally reduced in severity. Theoretically to reduce the likelihood of fatality.

WingNut60
26th Sep 2018, 11:22
In West Oz suburban streets or "in built-up areas" speed limit is 50 kph.
School zones are 40 kph during in and out of school times and are marked with highly visible, timed LED restriction signage - very effective.

Idiots still drive at whichever speed they like.
Worst offenders - mothers dropping their kids at school.

cattletruck
26th Sep 2018, 11:40
The call for 30kph zones is often by people who want to feel a sense of importance so have found themselves a soapbox to stand on, after all "safety" is something we all want. And when they achieve 30kph zones everywhere these very same people will get back on their soapbox and start the call for 20kph zones - because it's "safer" than 30kph zones.

A couple of years after my muppet Indian neighbour moved into our suburb, he lobbied local council to stick a bollard in the laneway a few houses down to prevent cars from using it. He even got his mug in the municipal rag standing next to the new bollard under the guise of "safety". The laneway was was built as an alternative access way for emergency vehicles in the 1930's and had been used by pedestrians and cars without issue for over 85 years, unfortunately our local muppet does not even hold a drivers licence so his imagination must be running wildly with all the potential possibilities of cars sharing the laneway with pedestrians.

DaveReidUK
26th Sep 2018, 14:40
As stated above, those who exceed limits will continue to do so, and accidents will still happen.

Not necessarily. There will be a proportion of drivers who, for example, were in the habit of breaking the old speed limits by what they consider to be a "safe" margin.

If they carry on breaking the new limits by the same margin, the end result is that they will be less likely to kill someone.

Pontius Navigator
26th Sep 2018, 14:55
DR, in theory yes, but yesterday the limit was 30 so drive at 40. Today same road, will they go at 3 0?

DaveReidUK
26th Sep 2018, 15:32
DR, in theory yes, but yesterday the limit was 30 so drive at 40. Today same road, will they go at 30?

Maybe not all drivers, and maybe not 30 mph, but any reduction of actual speed from 40 will make the roads safer.

The alternative proposition, that every single driver who has been breaking the speed limit by N mph will now break it by (N+10) mph, doesn't seem terribly intuitive.

Pontius Navigator
26th Sep 2018, 17:31
DR, my point is that a driver, having driven that road with a 30 limit will make no adjustment to his speed.

My MiL lives on an estate where the whole is subject to 20. The road is narrow with cars parked left and right like dodgems. Traffic would drive at speeds between 25-35, many still do.
​​​​

DaveReidUK
26th Sep 2018, 17:50
DR, my point is that a driver, having driven that road with a 30 limit will make no adjustment to his speed.​​​​

And my point was that while some drivers, possibly even most, will do what you describe, there will also be some who, while still speeding relative to the new limit, will actually have slowed down in absolute terms.

abgd
26th Sep 2018, 18:25
I find it pretty unlikely that dropping speed limits will increase the number of accidents and would be interested if you can post any links to evidence for this. If you drop your speed from 30 to 20mph your stopping distance will be halved and the mortality should you still hit a pedestrian will drop markedly, which is a big benefit. Another benefit in residential zones is reduced noise. Having recently moved from a noisy place to a quiet place, this is quite a big improvement in quality of life.

I've come across the theory before, that longer journey times will increase fatigue and therefore lead to more accidents, but in practice 20mph zones will mostly be at the beginning and end of any longer journeys and will only marginally increase travel times. Whilst there are a small proportion of drivers who account for a disproportionate number of accidents, most accidents don't involve drivers who are breaking the speed limit so the argument that the most dangerous drivers will simply ignore lower limits, making them useless, does not hold water.

Buster11
26th Sep 2018, 22:21
Is it only me who is incensed by the smug little "20 is Plenty" signs that have popped up lately? What 20 is plenty of is increased pollution, as people putter along in a lower gear than normal with engine rpm increased and lots more lovely pollution pouring out, as the slower cars take longer to pass by as they produce it. Breathe deeply and enjoy that, speed-obsessed locals.

DaveReidUK
26th Sep 2018, 23:03
Is it only me who is incensed by the smug little "20 is Plenty" signs that have popped up lately? What 20 is plenty of is increased pollution, as people putter along in a lower gear than normal with engine rpm increased and lots more lovely pollution pouring out, as the slower cars take longer to pass by as they produce it. Breathe deeply and enjoy that, speed-obsessed locals.

Nonsense.

At 20 mph (32 kph) the average car is producing at most about 20% more carbon emissions per km than it does at the optimum speed.

Gertrude the Wombat
26th Sep 2018, 23:11
Nonsense.

At 20 mph (32 kph) the average car is producing at most about 20% more carbon emissions per km than it does at the optimum speed.
Yes. there are plenty of resources debunking these various petrolhead claims.

One thing they (the petrolheads) fail to take account of is the reduced emissions due to the reduced congestion due to the increased junction capacity (as it's easier to pull out of junctions into gaps in the slower moving traffic).

ExSp33db1rd
27th Sep 2018, 00:50
Bring back the Red Flag. ( or will the Conservatives object ? )

Was Mankind right to have invented the wheel ?

I guess in a few years time we will be complaining about the "killer" silent electric cars. Perhaps we'll be suggesting attaching plastic strips to hub caps to make a noise as they catch on the wheel arches - like the cardboard strips that as kids we used to put on our bike wheels ? ( no more, all kids are driven to school these days )

bugged on the right
27th Sep 2018, 01:05
Ever tried leaving a gap between you and the car in front on UK roads? (Gertrude) The moment you do, somebody will jump in, leaving you to slow down again. The only time you can leave a space is on a 2 way road with continuous oncoming traffic. Then the person behind will be right up your backside wanting to fill the gap. They will just be bumper to bumper slowly revolving around the roundabout.

ExSp33db1rd
27th Sep 2018, 02:49
..into gaps....

I agree, what gaps ?

We have a series of suburban roads merging into the town main street, each commanded by a Stop sign. Between 3 and 3.45 pm each day residents of those streets might as well sit down and watch the T.V. the non-stop, albeit around 10 kph, traffic consisting of huge SUV's containing one Mum, and very occasionally one Dad, and one child is endless.

DaveReidUK
27th Sep 2018, 08:41
Ever tried leaving a gap between you and the car in front on UK roads? (Gertrude) The moment you do, somebody will jump in, leaving you to slow down again. The only time you can leave a space is on a 2 way road with continuous oncoming traffic.

So you would advocate driving dangerously close to the car in front, simply to make it more difficult for someone to jump into the gap ?

Interesting set of priorities ...

abgd
27th Sep 2018, 09:52
And do people really constantly overtake on residential roads? I thought gap-filling was more of a motorway thing.

treadigraph
27th Sep 2018, 09:55
A 20mph speed limit would have made not one whit of difference to the stupid bloody woman who just drove through a junction/pedestrian red light in front of me. Mercedes in outside lane stopped, I and others started to cross, she hurtled past the stationery Merc in the centre lane and drove straight across in front of me, head back, bluetooth headset in place, laughing and yakking with some dipshit on the other end of the phone. Not paying the slightest attention to the world around her... Good job one of us was, otherwise she'd now be facing a serious charge. Didn't hear me scream at her either. Absolute f**king idiot. Do not use the phone while driving, even hands free it is a distraction.

ehwatezedoing
27th Sep 2018, 10:26
Yes. there are plenty of resources debunking these various petrolhead claims.

One thing they (the petrolheads) fail to take account of is the reduced emissions due to the reduced congestion due to the increased junction capacity (as it's easier to pull out of junctions into gaps in the slower moving traffic).
Exactly!
One town in France, Toulon, wanted to put a speed limit of 30km/h within its limits (I don't know if they actually did it)
The idea came up after a study claiming that lowering speed limits that low would simply remove a lot of congestion.
Due to less accordion effect.



People would actually arrive faster to destination.

bugged on the right
27th Sep 2018, 11:11
Mr Reid, . I said that when you leave space somebody will jump into it. Then you make more space and somebody else will jump into that. And so on. . I did not say that I would move up to prevent them. Don't Cathy Newman me.

DaveReidUK
27th Sep 2018, 13:19
Mr Reid, . I said that when you leave space somebody will jump into it. Then you make more space and somebody else will jump into that. And so on. . I did not say that I would move up to prevent them. Don't Cathy Newman me.

Apologies, I had interpreted your post as implying that leaving a space in front of you was difficult/inadvisable, because someone would jump into it.

I'm pleased that we agree it's neither.