Collecting and researching WW2 pilots flying logbooks

[SimonK]

Very geeky and sad I know, but does anyone else have any interest in these amazing items of history, we used ourselves not so long back to record our flying careers? A fellow pilot at work was about to throw out two musty old logbooks he'd had since a child, given to him by his dad, who was a fellow WW2 pilot and a colleague of one Fg Off RG Stringer DFC. Luckily he changed his mind and gave them to me, and I started researching Fg Off Stringer's amazing career and short life....finding records of Blenheim missions over Norway, gun camera footage of his kills over the Bay of Biscay, Beaufighter attack missions from Malta and sadly ending clinging to a fuel tank from his shotdown Beaufighter. This lead to a rather large (and one very well-hidden from Mrs Siko) collection appearing in my office, including both RAF and Luftwaffe WW2 pilot's logbooks (Flugbuch in German) and I thought I'd share it with you here, as there seems to be a lot of interest in military aviation history on the forum. I have some really interesting logbooks if you're a fellow history buff and that way inclined: 2 TAF Typhoon pilot, Me109 ace, Ju88/He177 and finally Me262 pilot (surely unique?), FW190 squadron commander in Italy/Curland, Ju87 attack pilot on the Eastern front and many more covering much of the air war in Europe during WW2.

If anyone is interested, probably not I know ;) , I have put a lot of my collection into a thread on another forum which is linked below, with some of the most interesting stuff at the end. If you don't want to click on the link then feel free to google "Siko Luftwaffe" and it's the first hit.

Cheers

Siko's Luftwaffe and RAF Flugbuch/logbook collection - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums (http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843342)

[Chugalug2]

Siko (if I may?), the Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII thread is now well into its 10th year. Sadly, we have lost many of the members who qualified per the OP and told their stories of wartime recruitment, training, and operations, but happily we have Danny42C, who dive-bombed the Japanese Army in Burma for a living, having been trained in the USA Arnold Schools for his RAF wings. All the stories were woven on the armatures of various RAF Form 414's (Pilots Flying Log Book) of course. Even the stories of deceased fathers, etc, have been related by their children using this invaluable and precise record. At one point it was hoped that Luftwaffe WWII pilots might join our virtual crew-room, but it was not to be. The thread is still very active and drifts as it may, with the WWII RAF as its loadstone. You would be most welcome I know if you could tell the stories that you have researched so diligently, be they of British, Commonwealth, German, or whatever, nationalities. At the moment the subjects, inter alia, are Polish Code Breakers and RAF Overseas Station Architecture, but we amble as we may, thanks to our ever indulgent mods.

Danny is always urging us on, telling us that time is of the essence. As valuable as the OP posts are, the resultant discussion throws up anomalies, corrects long held misunderstandings, and generally takes us back to those desperately dangerous but adrenalin filled years. The stories told first hand of course are very special, and their "by the way" detail unique, but time alas has made it likely that Danny is probably the last to tell us his own story. So now we come to the NoK and the historians and researchers, such as yourself, to speak for those whose records survive them. I for one would be fascinated and grateful if you could tell us such stories. The more fleshing out of those ever terse log-book entries the better.

The stories need telling, but the telling itself can take its time, ever pausing to discuss anything and everything, from technical, administrative, logistical, morale, etc viewpoints. Our crew room, shabby and worn as it may be, has infinite capacity, giving those who take pride of place standing before its chipped fireplace a large and appreciative audience. If you've a mind to join us then please do. The tea, milk, sugar, and kettle are on the left as you come in, with the swindle cash tin right alongside. Grab a mug, help yourself, and find an unoccupied battered armchair near the fire. Danny would no doubt be along shortly to welcome you to our humble abode:-

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww-ii-617.html

[SimonK]

Thanks chugalug! You’re very kind (but I’m more a history geek than an actual historian ;)) and I’ll see what I can dig out and put into the WW2 thread. The challenge is making someone else’s logbook, recorded full of amazing events, into an interesting and truthful read without elaboration.

That said....there are some amazing stories in some of mine that I am trying to research as best I can. I’ve had a lot of help thus far and there’s an excellent forum called “12oclockhigh.net” full of proper historians who are extremely helpful and seem to know everything about anything WW2 aviation related. Maybe I could start with a few entries from Fg Off Stringers logbook and do our best to bring his life back into focus once again.....

[Chugalug2]

Simon, I'm very glad to see that you have already accepted my invitation and are already posting on the WWII pilots brevet thread. You can expect an appreciative audience there for the wealth of stories garnered from your Allied and Axis Pilot Logbooks. They can inform and entertain for many years ahead if the pace is set to dead slow, a pace that will allow you to flesh out the more fully those later stories which need it, and for us to mull over the units, types, locations, and campaigns involved.

See you there, NATO standard for the tea? Just take a seat and I'll bring it over.

Cheers,

Chug

BTW, anyone with an interest for WWII history in general, and the RAF's in particular, are always welcome on the thread. With some modesty we claim it to be the best thread on the military forum. Come on over and judge for yourself (and post there as well of course).

[Hipper]

The RAF Museum have a random collection of Flying Logs.

Indeed with the agreement of my mother I gave them my father's one to them.

[SimonK]

The RAF Museum have a random collection of Flying Logs.

Indeed with the agreement of my mother I gave them my father's one to them.

Yes, I believe they have a very good collection of logbooks now at the RAF Museum and don’t particularly want anything new, unless it’s of special interest, In the sixties a lot of logbooks relating to aircrew killed in action were simply burnt and a huge number disposed of this way, so many of them haven’t survived despite the numbers of pilots who flew operationally. I guess with nearly 60,000 casualties from Bomber Command alone, there were sadly a lot of those logbooks to burn. Plus, many of them, like your fathers, stayed with the family and it’s rare to see a ‘good’ one make the light of day onto the open market. I made contact with a very well know aviation historian who interviewed many of the Luftwaffe pilots still alive in the 80s and he was given a huge amount of what is now priceless material.....as their families didn’t want anything to do with that period in German history.

[Chugalug2]

I'm not sure I'd want to hand over anything to the RAFM, personal or otherwise. It seems to have become yet another manifestation of New Think that infests so many of our institutions today. Burning books, including logbooks, should be done in far off countries of which we know little, rather than here. Of course attitudes constantly change, but that is the whole point, it smacks of hubris to think that our attitudes trump any others that will follow. Interesting that the clear out happened in the sixties. That was when we bulldozed a lot of Victoriana, replacing it with modern tower blocks instead. That worked out well, didn't it?

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was dealing in militaria I always used to advertised for medals and flying logbooks (as well as other items). Over the years I purchased many lovely groups of RAF medals, including DFC, DFM and AFC groups, a group to a Battle of Britain Air Gunner, and many more. However I hardly ever managed to obtain any logbooks, as they were deemed to be much more personal to the individual than the medals themselves. One lady was quite content to sell me her late husband's AFC group, but would not part with his logbook, which I fully understood. She did however lend it to me and it was fascinating. Around the time of the Normandy invasion he was the CO of a Mosquito squadron, and somewhere around D plus 3 he was shot down, but was lucky to parachute into friendly territory and was soon back on ops. The story behind that short logbook entry was that subsequent examination of camera footage revealed the fact that he had been shot down by one of his own squadron who had mistaken him for one of the Me110s they were "involved with", Hardly a career move on the part of the offending pilot!

Such is the sort of info that can make a logbook fascinating, and makes them hard to collect. I am always looking up things in my own rather slim logbook, and I know it will never be disposed of it until such time that it becomes the property of "the late TTN"

Chugalug - I wouldnt give the RAFM the time of day, let alone a logbook, and that goes for most museums. Unless it is exceptional it will disappear into a vault and never see the light of day again.

[Wensleydale]

I'm not sure I'd want to hand over anything to the RAFM

You need to be careful about how you "give" something to a museum. There are choices to be made about the donation, and an accredited museum will give you correct paperwork to record the transaction. Firstly, if you give, or donate, an object to a museum then it ceases to be your property and belongs to the museum, and this is the fallback case if you don't have any paperwork. This means that they can do whatever they want with the item including destruction or even selling on/giving it away themselves. However, you can "loan" items to the museum which means that you maintain ownership of the item which is under the custody of the museum. You can also add terms to the loan such as how long they can have it and whether they can sub-loan out etc. The advantage of loan is that you know where the object is - just keep your paperwork safe and you can get it back if you want. The disadvantage of loan is that if you leave something of value (such as medals) then it stays as part of your estate and when you die then there can be a scramble of relatives/people claiming executive rights wanting the item back so that they can sell it. I have heard many people complain that items are locked away and don't see the light of day again when they have given them to museums, yet they have given possession away legally. The bottom line is that you must discuss the giving/loaning of an item with the staff at the museum and decide what is best for you, but always ask for the paperwork if you go for a loan.

[Innominate]

Wensleydale is quite correct. However, museums are often reluctant to take material on long-term loan, not least because they are then providing the owner with free storage. Although nearly all museums have more material than could ever be displayed at one time, those items in store should be viewable on request, and I know that the RAF Museum's archive is made available to researchers, family members etc. Arguably, when a logbook goes into a private collection, it becomes unavailable, unless someone like the OP publishes scans/transcripts on the web.

The decision made to burn unclaimed logbooks in the early 1960s was made by the Air Ministry - ironically, not long before the RAF Museum was founded. The following is from Air Ministry and Ministry of Defence: Aircrews' Flying Log Books The National Archives (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2059) - "In 1959 the Particular Instance Paper Committee recommended the destruction, save for a few specimens, of log books remaining unclaimed in the Air Ministry despite announcements in the Press. Further announcements were then made through the Press and BBC stating that books not claimed by 15 September 1960 would be destroyed. Of the 6,400 shelf footage of log books, 20 feet were selected for preservation, aiming to illustrate: format of log bookstypes of flying training at home and abroad, aircrew trades, flying experience, operational flying experience, theatres of war, campaigns and operations. Also selected were: log books of distinguished pilots or members of distinguished squadrons, especially those detailing engagements with the enemy; of pilots with exceptional flying experience; and of foreign nationals flying with the RAF."

[Tankertrashnav]

Also selected were: log books of distinguished pilots or members of distinguished squadrons, especially those detailing engagements with the enemy; of pilots with exceptional flying experience; and of foreign nationals flying with the RAF."

No navigators, air gunners, flight engineers etc? Or are you guilty of the usual journalistic offence of referring to all aircrew as "pilots"?

TTN ;)

[Treble one]

SimonK I'm sure the IWM would have a good look at such interesting items?

[Innominate]

TTN - Not my words but TNA's; their text does mention "aircrew trades". A search of AIR 4 reveals 26 navigators' log books, and numerous other aircrew categories, among the 249 items in the Class, dating from 1915 to 1983. It's difficult to get exact numbers, because the cataloguing isn't specific enough.

It's not for me to say whether there are distinguished (their word) navigators etc., but I suspect the original selection focussed on names that the record reviewers recognised - Gibson's second logbook made it to Kew; he had lost the first.

[Chugalug2]

An interesting link, Innominate, thank you. So the Air Ministry as was had 6400 feet of aircrew logbooks stored (better by the yard no doubt!) of which they only preserved 20 feet? One wonders why they held so many in the first place. Everyone who has posted on this forum (including Danny 42C and his ilk) and quoting from their own log books seem to have left their Service with their log book(s). I'm not sure what the procedure was for deceased aircrew though. Would the logbook not go to the NoK along with other personal items? Or was the security aspect in WWII such that the logbooks were retained in that case? If we say that a logbook was only half an inch thick, that means 24 to the foot, so approximately 153600 in total. Bomber Command had by far the highest loss rate, and the largest number of aircrew. The quoted number of BC losses being of course 55.573 (only aircrew?), just over a third of the total number calculated of stored logbooks. Does anyone know the total RAF aircrew losses from 1918 to 1960? I know this is a crude calculation but would it not have to go back to the very beginning of the RAF to accumulate that much occupied shelf space if of deceased aircrew? Institutional vandalism was alive and well in the 60's of course but this cull of RAF history is truly breath taking.

[Franek Grabowski]

If you cry for log books, I can assure you that much more important historical stuff was dumped somewhere at the period.

[Wensleydale]

The WW2 ORB of one Sqn was rescued from a skip just a few years ago..it was the Sqn's copy and a new OC didn't want the shelves of his registry "cluttering up". It was given back to the Sqn when a new OC who was more appreciative of the history was posted in. The same Station had some pieces from the wreckage of one of the Stn's Lancasters in the foyer of Ops Wg. A new OC Ops demanded that the "junk yard" be removed.

[rolling20]

Chugalug, I think there was something on here a while back re WW2 log books. Apparently in the 60s an appeal was put out by the MOD ( or who ever it was then ) to try and reunite the many log books that they held with families of the deceased. Some came forward and claimed them. Others which were of significance were kept. The vast majority were unfortunately destroyed. As to why so many were held one can only guess. When personal effects were being given back to next of kin, one would have thought that they would want their log book? Or maybe they were never offered to the families? However my own great grandmother, did not want anything to do with the war after her son was killed in Bomber Command and had all of his possessions destroyed. I would very much have liked to seen my great uncles log book, if it was handed back, but I respect the wishes of my great grandmother.

[Wensleydale]

Is it not the case, that log books are an official record and are the property of the MOD and not of the individual who is just the custodian? (Serious question).

[SimonK]

Is it not the case, that log books are an official record and are the property of the MOD and not of the individual who is just the custodian? (Serious question).

I believe you’re right and it was always my understanding that my logbook was official property. I have seen a few WW2 logbooks for sale with the accompanying paper condolence slips sent to the family after death, so it may be that some were requested at the time of death and the rest just sent into central storage to be burnt years later or claimed.

All very sad, my own Austrian great uncle was killed when his JU88 flew into a hill in 1943, we recently got his flying records back (no logbook sadly) and it was a very interesting exercise, shedding new light on this long dead relative of mine. Thanks for all the messages sent via pm, glad it is of interest. As chugalug suggested I’ve moved into the “gaining a pilot brevet in WW2” thread and started posting some stuff up in there for anyone interested. Cheers, Si

[Chugalug2]

Is it not the case, that log books are an official record and are the property of the MOD and not of the individual who is just the custodian? (Serious question).

indeed, confirmed in the Kew link posted by innominate:-

These records, known as 'flying log books', are declared by the Regulations to be official documents but the compilers are allowed, on ceasing to be employed and after all official action has been taken, to claim their log books.
but then a completed Leave Pass would be an Official Document wouldn't it? The Pilots (or other Aircrew) Flying Log Book is not even a Restricted Document, and the fact that we all have our own ones points to the clear implication that Official Record or no, it can stay with its subject aircrew on leaving. As the AM/MOD offered its shelf loads of them to anyone who had a reasonable claim (ie NoK), I still don't understand why it ended up with so many of them in the first place.

Franek,
If you cry for log books, I can assure you that much more important historical stuff was dumped somewhere at the period.

in the many offences of the MOD and those who worked for it to be taken into account, burning Logbooks is no doubt the equivalent of being charged with failing to keep one's inoculations up to date. Presumably it didn't cost lives and endanger many others, whereas pulping the Airworthiness Regulations and sacking those who refused to suborn them did....

[Pontius Navigator]

On logbook entries, there were of course the printed columns with date and hours etc but what one put in detail was up to the individual. Given the space, most people used just the one line with personal cryptic abbreviations. They could be read and understood by someone on the same sqn and someone familiar with the type could probably make a stab at an accurate decode.

In my case I have some that list an Exercise and a mission number, written in the assumption that the primary exercise documents would have the necessary amplifying detail.

My uncle went missing on sortie lacconically described as Searchlight Coop. Whether that meant he was acting as a practice target or was intended as the shooter if the searchlights comes a target I don't know.

[Innominate]

To (hopefully) answer some of the points made above...
My understanding is that when wartime aircrew failed to return, their possessions were collected and forwarded to a central depository, in the hope that they would return - either through escape or evasion, or as released POWs - and resume their flying. In due course, personal posessions would be returned, but logbooks seem to have been retained longer. As Simon K, points out some logbooks were eventially claimed and passed to next of kin.

Chug's calculation of the number of logbooks makes general sense, although some of the more experienced aircrew may have had more than one logbook, and the thickness of logbooks varied - the fact that later wartime ones had fewer pages is partly due to the shortage of paper, but sadly also suggests that they realised some would never be filled...

Logbooks are official documents, but not all official documents make it to the National Archives. I can only assume that the 6400 ft figure was considered too much to transfer in its entirety, and a sampling exercise would privide sufficient evvidence of the sort of things that aircrew got up to. As we know, however, every logbook is different and potentially valuable for research.

ORBs were typed in (I think) triplicate. The top copy should have gone via the Air Historical Branch to Kew, but I've seen some rather dire carbon copies, and some ORBs seem never to have made it at all. Some have remained with the units that raised them, but they are at the mercy of those who have little regard for history.

Finally, Searchlight Cooperation seems to have been more about acting as a target than being on hand to attack targets illuminated by them.

[PAXboy]

The RAF Museum have a random collection of Flying Logs.

Indeed with the agreement of my mother I gave them my father's one to them.

My own father's log books and medal set are with the museum. They were interested as he illustrated his books with photographs, quotations and newspaper clippings making into a kind of scrap book of his war service. He was a Navigator, Radio and Radar Operator in night fighters. Rather unusually, his pilot and he stayed together throughout - if a posting came up for one of them - they turned it down. Consequently, they carried out three and half tours, 104 ops (or might be 106, I forget).

Before he gave his books to the RAF, he had them scanned so we have both books as PDFs. His grandson who became a commercial pilot, had a copy bound into two books to replicate the originals.

[Chugalug2]

Innominate, my calculations were arbitrary and rough to say the least. My own logbook exceeds half an inch, but I suspected as you say that WWII ones did not, and that entries were condensed accordingly. I take your point about those who survived long enough to fill more than one.

I remember the 60s were very much about the present and the future rather than the then grim past, and that notion permeated every walk of life. Barry Bucknell had already prepared us in panelling over any fussy Victoriana in our homes with the ubiquitous sheets of hardboard. Mouldings on doors, spindles on staircases, all vanished from view. Abbey Road called the tune and Farnborough deafened us with the efflux of ever more powerful jets. No wonder there was no place for mouldering old RAF Log Books!

RAF Colerne held part of the embryonic RAFM collection, among which were the surviving Avro 707 A and C research aircraft used for exploring the aerodynamic regime of what was to become the Vulcan. Some suit or other decided that one of them could be scrapped as one only would suffice. I see that Cosford has the C, and Manchester MSI the A, so that piece of vandalism failed. As did the complete 'redevelopment' of Manchester City Centre, because the money ran out! That is the only reason that the Midland Hotel and Central Station (now a Conference Centre) remain. Barry would not have been pleased!

[Franek Grabowski]

While I can understand anger over log books, and I certainly would wish to have more of them preserved, you must realise, that tons of valuable stuff was lost forever. Gun camera films, photos of damaged and crashed aircraft, authorisation books, accident reports. This is not as painful as the loss of documents of various research bodies for example. As far as I know RN and FAA was particularly badly hit, with lots of essential documents being lost. Also army records were badly hit. I recall being told by the curator of the Sikorski Institute, that several British researchers were crawling through the records of Polish ships, and Polish army units, because they were not decimated, and had unique and essential information.

[Lechon]

What a great collection, I love looking at this window in history via these log books

[Chugalug2]

You make a good point Franek. There was a frenzy of dumping and scrapping long before the 60s. All the lease-lend kit had to be paid for or scrapped. Not a chance for the former unless it had post war use (such as DC-3s) so overboard it went (literally often, and the immense amount of left over ordnance certainly did). The contents of Bletchley Park were destroyed on Churchill's direct order, the exceptions going to Cheltenham for Cold War purposes. Lesser kit filled the ubiquitous Government Surplus stores in every town for many years.

I suppose though that log books hit a particular nerve here. We all know the effort and sheer slog that went into filling our own. That some apparatchik should take it upon themselves to consign all that service, all that record of duty done, all that history, to the flames simply because of the shelf space it occupied is painful for any aircrew concerned with our heritage.

That is why the personal testimony of those who served is so important. The aircraft they flew are long gone, the records of their war are often gone, but their memories remain with them, or those they have entrusted with their stories. Threads like this one and the History Forum's Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII are valuable and historic records in their own right. History is greatly served by those who have thus contributed to them. As Danny42C so often reminds us, time is not on our side:-

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww-ii.html

[Quemerford]

Have used the RAFM log book collection for research many times: all are very well catalogued, so for researchers they are a boon. I can find nothing to criticise and I'd advise against associating the RAFM display daftness with the way collections and donations are (very respectfully) dealt with.

[Wander00]

I have spent some time helping friends decode the abbreviations in their fathers' wartime record of service (some of the abbreviations are pretty obscure) and then filling in the gaps with photos of aircraft types an explaining what some of the information implies. One I helped with included a time on 192 Sqn Washington's post war, during which tour he was awarded an AFC to his wartime DFC . Friend's dad was only pilot other than the OC for that period mentioned in "Listening In" so a bit of cross referencing, dates etc and concluded he had been involved in Suez ELINT. Another friend showed me his Grandfather's log book, stamped "Killed in Action". He was Wg Cdr Hugh Malcolm's observer when he was shot down and killed on the operation that earned Malcolm his posthumous VC. I was able to send him a link to a video of the Blenheim being air tested at Duxford, filmed from the observer's seat. he was delighted.

[CNH]

Another somewhat obscure 'codeword' in WWII logbooks was 'Gardening'. Nothing to do with digging out weeds, but minelaying, in particular on the approaches to the Elbe.

[megan]

most people used just the one line with personal cryptic abbreviations I can't decode my own logbooks now PN. :{

[2 sheds]

In some respects, I have a poor opinion of the RAF Museum, certainly the one at Hendon - or at least of some of their representatives. They used to have an animated illustration on their website to show how an aeroplane's controls work - with the ailerons operating arse-about-face! Very offhand attitude when I drew this to their attention. Eventually, instead of getting it corrected, they just removed it. They used to dish out flyers at the museum with line drawing illustrations on the front of a Hurricane and a Spitfire - with the colours of the British military fin flash reversed! Again, drew it to their attention but they didn't see it as an embarrassing blunder - couldn't be bothered to withdraw it and hold someone accountable because they had already printed so many.

2 s

[Wander00]

I suggested that rather than let kids thrash the controls in the Jet Provost they might get a volunteer a few times a day to explain the control to kids, of all ages. I sat in the thing for nostalgic reasons one day and ended up with quite a little audience so I hoped I did some good. Would volunteer myself but bit of a long drive in. Never got a reply to my suggestion. Ditto that part of background to the "Blitz" display they might plat part of Ernest Lough recording of "Oh for the Wings of a Dove" as he was with the National Fire Service at City Temple (where he made the recording) when it was bombed, on the same crew as my Dad. no response to that either.