Cheap ADS-B for VFR ops....

[triadic]

CASA to pursue Low-cost ADS-B for VFR is the headline in Friday's Australia Flying email.
Link to article (http://www.australianflying.com.au/latest/casa-to-pursue-low-cost-ads-b-for-vfr?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Newsletter%20Fri%2021%20September%202018&utm_content=Newsletter%20Fri%2021%20September%202018+CID_667 01664e61c501bc6b699c7abf8d910&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=CASA%20to%20pursue%20Low-cost%20ADS-B%20for%20VFR)
CASA has, however, indicated that it would be unlikely to allow non-certified ADS-B equipment to be used in Class C or A airspace in type-certified aircraft, but would permit such use in non-certified aircraft. I would be interested to know why the discrimination? That is what it is.... I build my own aircraft and it is ok, but not in my Cessna? There needs to be some serious discussion on how these decisions are made and exactly who is making these decisions, for what reasons and the related safety case must be made available to so justify!

[swh]

This isn’t CASAs doing, home builds are experimental aircraft where the builder can install a whole range of non certified avionics.

As an experimental aircraft they are limited in what they can be used fir.

[peterc005]

The newer ADSB equipment is improving and causing competition that pushes down prices.

The Stratus ESG Transponder costs $3750, comes with an inbuilt GPS and should be easier to install upgrades as it is the same dimensions at a KT76. Even with en Engineering Order and LAME installation should cost about $5k all up. Can't imagine even un-certified equipment would be much cheaper.

The https://www.pacificavionics.com.au/product-page/stratus-esg-transponder

[LeadSled]

The newer ADSB equipment is improving and causing competition that pushes down prices.

The Stratus ESG Transponder costs $3750, comes with an inbuilt GPS and should be easier to install upgrades as it is the same dimensions at a KT76. Even with en Engineering Order and LAME installation should cost about $5k all up. Can't imagine even un-certified equipment would be much cheaper.

The https://www.pacificavionics.com.au/product-page/stratus-esg-transponder

Folks,
Stand by for the Minister's tame advisory body to recommend that ADS-B OUT be made mandatory for all VFR, after all "Safety Is Our First Priority", and something simply must be done about the terrible collision risk problem in Australian airspace.

It cannot be denied that aircraft, particularly VFR aircraft, frequently come within several miles of each other.
Tootle pip!!

[peterc005]

The reality is that Mode S and ADSB transponders have fallen to about the same price as Mode C transponders were. I don't think Mode C transponders can be installed anymore. No real downside for ADSB now and eventually it will become ubiquitous.

[LeadSled]

The reality is that Mode S and ADSB transponders have fallen to about the same price as Mode C transponders were. I don't think Mode C transponders can be installed anymore. No real downside for ADSB now and eventually it will become ubiquitous.

That is no reason to make it mandatory in Australia, and put one more nail in the coffin of what little is left of GA in Australia.

Made mandatory on the basis of recommendations made by those who will never bear the expense, based on no risk management demonstrated justification, much less cost/benefit justification, but "because we can". Or, now it is "reportedly ubiquitous".

After all, what is another $5,000-$10,000 when Safety Is Our First Priority.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Based on two recent alleged "loss of separation" incidents (an interesting concept in Class G, VFR/VMC) with at least one ADS-B IN equipped aircraft, I think we have seen a portent of the future, a mid-air in the circuit, because one of more pilots were looking at their ADS-B IN, instead of "looking out the window".

[Aussie Bob]

PS: Based on two recent alleged "loss of separation" incidents (an interesting concept in Class G, VFR/VMC) with at least one ADS-B IN equipped aircraft, I think we have seen a portent of the future, a mid-air in the circuit, because one of more pilots were looking at their ADS-B IN, instead of "looking out the window".

Leaddie, that future is here now, I call it "device fixation" and I see it most times I do a flight review. Pilots, it seems, mostly private pilots, are addicted to their devices so much that they look at them more often than they look outside. Given the current fixation with devices in the general population, I guess it is not that surprising but it is a bit of a worry.

[Dick Smith]

There is a big difference . While both a mode C transponder and ADSB will appear on TCAS equipment in airline aircraft the ADSB transmits the aircraft callsign for enforcement or charging purposes.

Also with ADSB there is little privacy.

Could we suggest that all Canberra bureaucrats going driving on the weekend are fitted with an ADSB equivalent. It would be safer.

[PPRuNeUser0201]

LS, once again you prove your irrelevance and that you have an anti-stance on anything remotely progressive.

Can you show me anywhere in the latest release from CASA or any other document shows it’s mandated for VFRor that there are any plans for this? NO!

Your constant negativity is just boring.

For those of us that want to have a bit more SA especially in Class G, this is a great start to enabling us to use other than certified technology. The more of us that have ADSB the better it will be and to do so cheaply will only encourage this.

I hope what Triadic is suggesting is not right because, well, it seems ridiculous tbh.

So LS, keep to the thread instead of dredging up your old and out of date views.

[peterc005]

I can see benefits for SAR with ADBS because the GPS history will be sent to a central repository. Should make finding lost planes a lot easier and more reliable.

Also, ADSB receivers are becoming so cheap everyone can have a form of TCAS.

The old Narco Mode C transponder in my plane has failed and needs to be replaced and i don't think going to ADSB will cost anything extra.

It's a pity the mobile 5G network wasn't available a few years ago. Could have broadcast ADSB packets on the 5G network and Airservices wouldn't have needed to run base stations.

[cogwheel]

The reality is that Mode S and ADSB transponders have fallen to about the same price as Mode C transponders were. I don't think Mode C transponders can be installed anymore. No real downside for ADSB now and eventually it will become ubiquitous.

Mode C transponders can still be installed but ops limited to class D & G and below A100.

[Aussie Bob]

I can see benefits for SAR with ADBS because the GPS history will be sent to a central repository. Should make finding lost planes a lot easier and more reliable.
Sure thing Pete, planes go missing within radar coverage all the time ...
Also, ADSB receivers are becoming so cheap everyone can have a form of TCAS.
Not all of us want one. I gather you are one of the “screen starer’s” that are so common these days.
I don’t particularly want one of these things in my bugsmasher, I see it as pointless expense. I am also not that enamoured with being tracked wherever I fly.

[Squawk7700]

I can see benefits for SAR with ADBS because the GPS history will be sent to a central repository. Should make finding lost planes a lot easier and more reliable.

Also, ADSB receivers are becoming so cheap everyone can have a form of TCAS.

The old Narco Mode C transponder in my plane has failed and needs to be replaced and i don't think going to ADSB will cost anything extra.

It's a pity the mobile 5G network wasn't available a few years ago. Could have broadcast ADSB packets on the 5G network and Airservices wouldn't have needed to run base stations.

You obviously don't fly anywhere outside Melbourne if you think that 4G coverage would be a good substitute for ADSB or radar.

[peterc005]

I did say 5G.

I use the Telstra mobile network and have always had good (not perfect) 4G coverage from the south of Tasmania to the north of NSW and across to Adelaide at VFR levels. 5G will be a game changer and fantastic for GA.

[Squawk7700]

5G will be a game changer and fantastic for GA.

Why is that exactly? They say that every time a new version comes out. Marketing hype.

[cattletruck]

5G will be a game changer and fantastic for GA.

...and the Chinese if we are not careful. Perhaps if they offer separation as an add-on service we wouldn't think so harshly of their wire-tapping efforts.

[Aussie Bob]

5G will be a game changer and fantastic for GA.

What game is going to change Pete? The way people play with their phones or the footy?

[peterc005]

What game is going to change Pete? The way people play with their phones or the footy?

5G will be massive. Everything that moves or stays still will be connected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_of_things

[triadic]

this discussion seems to have gone off the rails a bit.... In the first post I said:

I build my own aircraft and it is ok, but not in my Cessna? There needs to be some serious discussion on how these decisions are made and exactly who is making these decisions, for what reasons and the related safety case must be made available to so justify!

This is not the only area where CASA set one set of rules for one part of the industry and another set for others. To me there is no justification where the aircraft are basically the same.

Seems to me that the Sports folk have a set of rules, the Warbirds another and us folk in GA are left yet another set. Why is this so?

[Aussie Bob]

Triadic, I totally agree with your sentiment and it is just one area where the “authority” lives up to the “safety” bit in their name by ignoring basic safety and “agreeing” that it is simply too dangerous for someone to simply fit a decent radio to their light aircraft. The gear I see in RAA and homebuilts is stunning. Meanwhile back in GA simply replacing my aged and poor quality VHF radio is an exercise that costs way more than it should and is complicated beyond belief. Where is the safety in that?

As for fitting a simple cost effective ADSB, it is way “safer” not to have one at all.


Thanks for the link Peter. Aviation will never catch up, let alone keep up.

[Old Akro]

I use the Telstra mobile network and have always had good (not perfect) 4G coverage from the south of Tasmania to the north of NSW and across to Adelaide at VFR levels. 5G will be a game changer and fantastic for GA.


you must be flying low level 8n the J curve. Mobile phones is not a serious option.

And anyone who thinks ADS-B is an SAR tool has been drinking the same kool-aide as AsA.

Where do you need ADSB for useful SAR coverage? Under 5,000 ft and typically at circuit levels. Where don’t we have any significant ADSB coverage outside the capital CTA’s ? Under 5,000 ft.

The cost burd3n of ADS-B has never been the transponder cost. It’s been the CASA imposed engineering order costs ( which the US waived), the cost of adding WAAS GPS, the cost of a new grey code altitude transponder and the cost of rewiring and replacing the GPS antennae.

If CASA was serious about making ADS-B it would waive the requirement for engineering orders,

[swh]

This is not the only area where CASA set one set of rules for one part of the industry and another set for others. To me there is no justification where the aircraft are basically the same.

They are not the same, if you are not interested in carrying members of the public then perhaps you can get yourself an RAA aircraft. There is a reason why so many hours are flown every year in all sorts of conditions in certified aircraft that are safer than the driving the trip to the airport.

Your comment is about as insane as saying a vintage car, Gato XUV, and a taxi are basically the same as they have 4 wheels.

[Sunfish]

you are confusing structural and system safety with operational safety. there is no reason that Experimental or RAA aircraft are not equally as safe to operate as a 40 year old C172.


Furthermore even the bugsmasher I am building has more sophisticated and capable avionics than most of the GA fleet and at a fraction of the price.

[Squawk7700]

you must be flying low level on the J curve. Mobile phones is not a serious option.

+1



..........

[Aussie Bob]

They are not the same, if you are not interested in carrying members of the public then perhaps you can get yourself an RAA aircraft. There is a reason why so many hours are flown every year in all sorts of conditions in certified aircraft that are safer than the driving the trip to the airport.

SWH, your comment is ill informed to say the least. Most of the small capacity (4 seat and less) GA fleet will never see charter work again, they are simply private aircraft in private hands. My aircraft for example has only 2 seats and is not and never has been a charter aircraft. It never will be either. My previous 172 was built in 1964 and never did charter in its entire life. There needs to be a classification where VH registered aircraft that will not be used for charter can have the engineering order and TSO avionics requirement changed. Move them to RAA rego perhaps, whatever, it is beyond stupid that I can't fit decent safe reliable and well priced stuff just because bureaucracy is reluctant to change with the times. Updating simple radios is not rocket science.

[LeadSled]

LS, once again you prove your irrelevance and that you have an anti-stance on anything remotely progressive.

And what is your definition of "progressive"?? Like Bill Shorten's higher power prices and taxes and more regulation from the nanny state is "progressive".

You obviously have difficulty reading what I actually wrote.

Can you show me anywhere in the latest release from CASA or any other document shows it’s mandated for VFRor that there are any plans for this? NO!

All that proves is I am tuned in to what is being hawked around the "Glass House", and by others who are no friends of GA, of course it hasn't been "published" yet, that would let the cat out of the bag. Indeed, the proposals for mandatory ADS-B OUT for all aircraft isn't even new, it is at least fifteen years old. Sadly, it has just got a whole new life.

Simply, you are not "fully informed" on the subject.

Your constant negativity is just boring.

If you bothered to read what I actually say, I am advocating (just like the Productivity Commission, Office of Best Practice Regulation, A-Gs and so on) that regulatory activity must be justified by proper description and delineation of risk, and any proposed "answers", including legislation, must be cost/benefit justified.

Sorry if you find that boring. To the true "progressive", the "true believer", costs and budgets are no more than an irritant, justification can be written off as an old fashioned "conservative" view.

After all: "Safety Is Our First Priority".

How you waste your own money is a matter for you. I just don't want you mandating I waste mine.

For those of us that want to have a bit more SA especially in Class G, this is a great start to enabling us to use other than certified technology. The more of us that have ADSB the better it will be and to do so cheaply will only encourage this.

See a previous post from an ATO, and "device fixation". And you better find out about the inherent errors in what you see in front of you, a topic either not understood or ignored by too many pilots, and not just GA pilots.

I hope what Triadic is suggesting is not right because, well, it seems ridiculous tbh.

So LS, keep to the thread instead of dredging up your old and out of date views.

Such boring and out of date subjects, risk determination, risk management, cost/benefit analysis --- I guess in this post decosntructionist/post factual age we live in, where perception is reality, "I feel it is not safe" therefore it is not safe (whatever "safe" means) such old fashioned concepts as hard data, facts and supportable analysis hardly get a look-in.

I speak from a position of having used this sort of gear, over now several generations of development, for longer than all but a handful of pilots in Australia, so my views are based on hard won experience, not theory. What is your long term experience??



tootle pip!!

PS: And, boring as it is, I am advocating: "Look out the bleeding window", and not just because it is the law, but because it may save your life one day.