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uffington sb
19th Sep 2018, 07:16
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-45561937

Why was he still driving at that age, doing 75 hour weeks, having eight warning letters about his driving and after an independent driving assessment said he wasnít up to the standard to pass an initial driving test.
Midland Red (South) have a lot to answer for.

Krystal n chips
19th Sep 2018, 07:25
One short answer to the question.........."management ".

ATNotts
19th Sep 2018, 08:02
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-45561937

Why was he still driving at that age, doing 75 hour weeks, having eight warning letters about his driving and after an independent driving assessment said he wasnít up to the standard to pass an initial driving test.
Midland Red (South) have a lot to answer for.

Nothwithstanding the fact the "Midland Red South" has nothing to do with the original and long lamented Midland Red (The Birmingham and Midland Motor Omnibus Company) you would have hoped that a company offering scheduled bus services (well any passenger bus services really) would have better standards than that. Stagecoach, who wiki says is the current owner of the brand should be ashamed of themselves. One hopes they apply higher standards to their other bus and rail companies.

I really don't understand how it's possible to work 75 hour weeks if the buses have tachographs, which I assume they have, and how a driver who had been monitored previously and found to regularly speed, and overshoot bus stops, not to mention driving away from stop whilst a passenger was still boarding beggars belief. It smacks of Bob Newhart's bus driver sketch! In another era, the traffic commissioners would surely have withdrawn their operating licence.

Fareastdriver
19th Sep 2018, 08:37
Should they have fired him they would had a crowd if PC protestors accusing them of ageism.

chevvron
19th Sep 2018, 09:06
Do PSV drivers not have to pass a medical? I know HGV drivers do.

KelvinD
19th Sep 2018, 09:11
I think the answer was simply greed. He didn't want to give up wage paying occupation. 75 hour weeks? Ludicrous! Sadly, he has been diagnosed with dementia and can not be prosecuted. How convenient is that! Shades of ex politicians getting away with serious crimes?

uffington sb
19th Sep 2018, 10:10
If he really wanted to keep working, then considering his poor driving record, management should have offered him a non driving depot job.
But instead, two people are dead and families grieving.

Uplinker
19th Sep 2018, 10:34
Yes, I think it is harsh to accuse anybody of greed without knowing the individual’s circumstances. Who are we to judge?

Not everybody wants to stop working and sit in their chair watching daytime TV when they retire. Some like to work to keep their brain active and meet people etc.

What this sad story shows is that something went seriously wrong - this guy’s driving was known and documented as being poor to dangerous, yet nothing was done other than repeatedly issuing warning letters. Why didn’t his management suspend his licence after the second warning? By allowing this guy to continue driving, the management are surely culpable for corporate manslaughter or whatever the technical phrase is?

If people are going to work beyond the age of 65 in future - and they will have to, since state pensions will not be claimable until 66, 67, 68 etc, - then for jobs requiring skill, coordination, good reactions and public safety; we will need to have some method of medical and performance assessment to ensure that individuals are able to perform their work to safe standards.

ShotOne
19th Sep 2018, 10:42
Before blaming his employer, bear in mind he held a valid licence and medical. If they'd fired him they'd have landed in court -and lost. It's the system needs looking at.

Meanwhile on another thread, someone is trying to force a rule-change so airliners can be flown by pilots of that age.

Uplinker
19th Sep 2018, 10:58
His licence should have been suspended when it was clear he was no longer up to the job.

Pilots are subject to extensive annual or bi-annual medicals and performance tests. Anybody wanting to do such safety related work needs to be carefully and regularly checked.

Arguably, medicals are going to need to include more of a mental performance assessment for such jobs in future.

Tankertrashnav
19th Sep 2018, 11:05
Sadly, he has been diagnosed with dementia and can not be prosecuted. How convenient is that! Shades of ex politicians getting away with serious crimes?

I am reminded of that expression "hard cases make bad law". The fact that one or two people have played the system does not alter the fact that with an ageing population dementia is an increasing problem. There is no point whatsoever in prosecuting people who are suffering from dementia - their condition means that they are unable to defend themselves, an essential for a fair trial

Of course he should never have been driving, but to me the fault lies fairly and squarely with the company.

Blues&twos
19th Sep 2018, 11:44
The company are being prosecuted under H&S law. I think they are being sentenced next week.
Even young healthy drivers should not be driving public service vehicles for 75 hours a week. That the company allowed a bloke in his late seventies with known driving issues to be doing it is astonishing.

Krystal n chips
19th Sep 2018, 11:44
Before blaming his employer, bear in mind he held a valid licence and medical. If they'd fired him they'd have landed in court -and lost. It's the system needs looking at.

Meanwhile on another thread, someone is trying to force a rule-change so airliners can be flown by pilots of that age.


Priceless ! remind us again who has a statuary duty to ensure employees are capable of performing their allocated work in a safe and competent manner ?......you aren't by any chance in this seemingly blameless group known as "management " ?

As for dismissing him, well that's a moot point. True, he would appear to have grounds for ageism if they had done, but, there would be no need to dismiss him, just, as another poster has said, offer him a non driving job or, make him an offer he can't refuse financially. The latter is hardly unknown as an HR tactic after all.

The bit about his driving / working hours is interesting though.......here's the official blurb on such. Not that "management " would be troubled by such details of course as it's not their responsibility.....obviously !

https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules

Hydromet
19th Sep 2018, 12:09
The company are being prosecuted under H&S law. I think they are being sentenced next week.

No doubt the company will cop a fine, but what about the individual(s) who permitted him to continue driving when he was clearly incapable? Tea and bonuses as usual.

Harley Quinn
19th Sep 2018, 12:42
On the subject of the driver's poor performance, that may well be a result of dementia. We have had to take my FiLs keys away from him at the beginning of the year as he was starting to exhibit the same sort of thing.
His excessive hours, nearly 50% over the legal maximum, is definitely in the hands of the company, irrespective of whether the driver wants the extra hours or not. Unfortunately I'm not up on H&S lam to know whether the company or an identified officer of the company carries the can.

arketip
19th Sep 2018, 13:22
Not everybody wants to stop working and sit in their chair watching daytime TV when they retire. Some like to work to keep their brain active and meet people etc.

Bit sad that some people have only the job in their life and the only alternative they see is sitting on the couch watching TV.

No hobbies, no interests, nothing that is not the job to fill their day.

DaveReidUK
19th Sep 2018, 13:25
Before blaming his employer, bear in mind he held a valid licence and medical. If they'd fired him they'd have landed in court -and lost. It's the system needs looking at.

Meanwhile on another thread, someone is trying to force a rule-change so airliners can be flown by pilots of that age.

If airline pilots can be obliged to stop flying commercially at a given age, why do you reckon that bus drivers can't be subject to an age limit?

Blacksheep
19th Sep 2018, 13:31
Yes, I think it is harsh to accuse anybody of greed without knowing the individualís circumstances. Who are we to judge?

Not everybody wants to stop working and sit in their chair watching daytime TV when they retire. Some like to work to keep their brain active and meet people etc.Yes, that's me. But I just drive a desk, work at a responsibility level well below that when I was at my peak (so no stress) and do just 40 hours a week. I intend to carry on until I'm 75 at least. Longer If I'm still bright enough to continue.

Fareastdriver
19th Sep 2018, 13:40
If airline pilots can be obliged to stop flying commercially at a given age, why do you reckon that bus drivers can't be subject to an age limit?

Not necessarily. There are countries where a pilot can continue as long as he passes his medicals and base checks. My Chinese and Australian licences had no age limit.

The only limit is the ICAO limit of 65 for international flying.

ShotOne
19th Sep 2018, 14:23
"..as long as he passes his medicals..": this is the principal argument put forward to removing pilots age limit in U.K. Point being that this driver had passed all his medicals.

Pontius Navigator
19th Sep 2018, 14:38
Depending on the HSE section punishment may be an unlimited fine and/or 2 years in prison.

DaveReidUK
19th Sep 2018, 14:59
The only limit is the ICAO limit of 65 for international flying.

Not so. The EU, for example, has a 65 limit for commercial pilots. If could equally age-limit bus drivers if it saw fit.

pasta
19th Sep 2018, 15:05
Bit sad that some people have only the job in their life and the only alternative they see is sitting on the couch watching TV.

No hobbies, no interests, nothing that is not the job to fill their day.
Depends. For some lucky people their hobby is their job. There are people in all walks of life, from multimillionaire businessmen/women to school lollipop ladies/men, who go to work because they love it, rather than for the money. Is that really sadder than spending 40+ hours a week doing something you hate, and then needing a hobby to escape from it.

arketip
19th Sep 2018, 15:13
Depends. For some lucky people their hobby is their job. There are people in all walks of life, from multimillionaire businessmen/women to school lollipop ladies/men, who go to work because they love it, rather than for the money. Is that really sadder than spending 40+ hours a week doing something you hate, and then needing a hobby to escape from it.

Why does a hobby have to be to escape from your job?
Can you manage only one interest in your life?

I love my job and like doing it.

But I also like tinkering and riding/driving my classic bikes and cars and doing other stuff when not at work.

I will not die of boredom when I retire

Pontius Navigator
19th Sep 2018, 16:23
Arketip, but when you retire you will find how much work interfered with your life ☺

OTOH, for the wife twice as much husband, half the money, half the time.

PJD1
19th Sep 2018, 17:29
I really don't understand how it's possible to work 75 hour weeks if the buses have tachographs, which I assume they have,

Passenger carrying vehicles operating on regular fixed routes of less than 50km are not required to use tachographs. The drivers have to adhere to GB domestic driver's hours rules.

Krystal n chips
19th Sep 2018, 18:13
"..as long as he passes his medicals..": this is the principal argument put forward to removing pilots age limit in U.K. Point being that this driver had passed all his medicals.

Yes he had passed his medicals, which may now come under more detailed scrutiny, however, lets talk about his alleged driving ability and standards which seem to feature quite prominently in the link and which alone should have warranted action from "management " ......which I'm sure they will be able to explain as to why not.

Since you seem fixated on pilots retirement ages, and passing medicals thereafter, how long do you think a pilot would be flying for if, like this driver, he passed his medicals but exhibited the same standards of airmanship comparative to the drivers alleged driving standards ?.

Sallyann1234
19th Sep 2018, 21:52
Just to correct the thread title. The accident was three years ago.
​​​​

Gertrude the Wombat
19th Sep 2018, 21:58
One hopes they apply higher standards to their other bus and rail companies.
Our local Stagecoach MD does try quite hard. At one point he asked, via the local media, "look, if I sack the not-very-good drivers, as you're asking me to, I'll have to cancel buses - I've got a serious recruitment problem here. What do you want me to do?"

The public replied "we would prefer you to sack the useless drivers". He sacked the useless drivers. In due course he sorted the recruitment problem, and (despite what you might read in the press) the buses now run as well as might be expected given the traffic conditions.

One thing he does is put his bus drivers on bikes and get them to cycle round the place, mixing it with buses and juggernauts. Since he started that he's had rather fewer complaints about bus drivers bullying cyclists. (Some years ago my wife had occasion to complain to him about the behaviour of one of his drivers to her on her bike - the response from Andy was "we have investigated your report, and in consequence that driver no longer works for us".)

G-CPTN
19th Sep 2018, 22:03
Passenger carrying vehicles operating on regular fixed routes of less than 50km are not required to use tachographs. The drivers have to adhere to GB domestic driver's hours rules.
True.
However . . .
One local bus operator decided to split their long-distance route (60 miles/94 km) into three successive sections - with each section being less than 50 km, thereby avoiding the need to operate with tachographs.
The bus is the same one throughout the journey - as is the driver, and passengers buy tickets according to their destination and do hot have to change buses.
The timetable reads "Through route. A change of bus is not required."
The driver simply changes the destination sign at each changeover point. The display reads 'A then C' then is changed to 'B then C'.

The authorities have accepted this fiddle and therefore the operator doesn't need to fit tachographs.
I'm not suggesting that the operation is in any way unsafe, and the drivers take their statutory breaks as required under GB drivers' hours rules, but it does make a mockery of the regulations (maybe justifiably).

WingNut60
19th Sep 2018, 23:06
.......but it does make a mockery of the regulations (maybe justifiably).

Post it to the Irish lad. Maybe he could adapt it to longhaul.

NoelEvans
20th Sep 2018, 07:57
Before blaming his employer, bear in mind he held a valid licence and medical. If they'd fired him they'd have landed in court -and lost. It's the system needs looking at.

Meanwhile on another thread, someone is trying to force a rule-change so airliners can be flown by pilots of that age.
Why would they have lost if they landed in court? If his driving had been assessed as poor and the proper employment procedures had been followed to dismiss him, how could they possibly 'have landed in court -and lost'?

In many countries around the world, and countries with very good airline safety records, airliners can be flown by pilots of that age. The difference is that airline pilots are under much, much tighter medical and performance scrutiny.

Age has nothing to do with any of this. It is all down to competence. Surely what this is highlighting is that the competence checks for bus drivers is poor.

ShotOne
20th Sep 2018, 09:08
KnC, there will have been a performance review procedure; if it turns out it wasnít followed someone will answer for it. Ditto for duty hours; 75hrs sound outrageous and by my reading the limit is 56. But the headline here is about drivers age; thatís the only reason thereís s thread running. If heíd been sacked for that, the only person in court would have been the manager who did the sacking.

Krystal n chips
20th Sep 2018, 09:55
KnC, there will have been a performance review procedure; if it turns out it wasnít followed someone will answer for it. Ditto for duty hours; 75hrs sound outrageous and by my reading the limit is 56. But the headline here is about drivers age; thatís the only reason thereís s thread running. If heíd been sacked for that, the only person in court would have been the manager who did the sacking.
And yet,......

" Before blaming his employer "

Ah, but he wasn't dismissed despite the alleged failings in his driving standards, which, as reported, should have warranted his dismissal without any recourse to ageism being a factor or excuse in this action being taken against him.

Alternative proposals as to whom had the responsibility, "management " having been clearly exonerated by you in the italicised quote above, welcome.

PJD1
20th Sep 2018, 10:58
75hrs sound outrageous and by my reading the limit is 56.

Under the GB regulations PCV drivers can work up to 16 hr "spread-over" shifts. This accommodates the split shifts that many bus drivers work which might typically involve working several hours in the morning, having several hours off in the middle of the day and then working several more hours in the evening. As the mid day rest period is not long enough to be considered a daily rest period it is treated as a single shift. I would imagine that the 75hrs quoted will include some of these split shifts, it would certainly not be possible to legally work 75 hrs solid so probably not quite as outrageous as it sounds. Not trying to justify the practice in any way, I'm sure working shift patterns such as this can result in fatigue and as G-CPTN pointed out it would appear that some bus operators are "stretching" the rules to take advantage of this. Of course a news headline stating that the driver was working 75hrs per week is much better than one saying he was complying with the drivers hours regulations!

tescoapp
20th Sep 2018, 11:32
Might be a second job included as well.

I only ever did hgv tacho work but a few of the lads did there shift and worked bars or were bouncer s at weekend.

How do the traffic commissions deal with the pcv world.

I have D+E on my license but never driven one with pax on.

Icare9
20th Sep 2018, 11:45
Surely you don't have to be 80 and driving a bus (badly)?
I can't believe the unions could justify keeping a driver on over the age of 65 with such a poor record?
I don't recall my wife or I being requested to stay on when we reached 65, despite there being a skill shortage we both could fulfil.
However you calculate it, this chap was many years into retirement age, I can't believe in 15 years they couldn't get a replacement.

No one in management or colleagues noticed any signs of dementia (well, he possibly wasn't tin the depot long enough if he had 75 hours on the road)?
No family spotted it?
65, 80 or 100 isn't necessarily the end of working life, but it has to be tempered against expected standards, which this chap failed on at least 8 occasions.
I know Pimlico Plumbers had a centenarian cleaning their fleet, but he wasn't driving, doing what he enjoyed where he didn't harm anyone.

We've seen it so many times before, when all the holes in the cheese line up and someone then says "We didn't realise that could happen".

ShotOne
20th Sep 2018, 12:42
ď..canít believe the unions could justify..Ē. If only. Sadly, much of the road transport sector is union-free (thank goodness for BALPA) and operates on the FIFO system (Fit In or work elsewhere!)

PJD1
20th Sep 2018, 12:52
Surely you don't have to be 80 and driving a bus (badly)?

The accident was in October 2015, the driver was 77 at the time. It is in the news now as the inquest is in progress.

I can't believe the unions could justify keeping a driver on over the age of 65 with such a poor record?

I don't see what this has to do with any trade union? We do not know if he was a member of a union or not and the decision to work beyond statuary retirement age is a personal one taken by the employee, nothing to do with any union. Agreed, from what has been published about his driving record there are some serious questions as to whether he was fit to be driving.

I don't recall my wife or I being requested to stay on when we reached 65, despite there being a skill shortage we both could fulfil.
However you calculate it, this chap was many years into retirement age, I can't believe in 15 years they couldn't get a replacement.

No one has to work beyond their statuary retirement age, it is a personal decision. If he wanted to continue working there would be no need to seek a replacement (setting aside the fact that he may not have been fit to continue but that is another issue!)

No one in management or colleagues noticed any signs of dementia (well, he possibly wasn't tin the depot long enough if he had 75 hours on the road)?
No family spotted it?

The issue of dementia was never raised at the time of the accident, he must have held a valid medical at the time of the accident so must have been considered (rightly or wrongly) fit to drive at the time. The dementia issue has only come to light recently and has been given as a reason why he is unfit to stand trial (draw your own conclusions from that!)

We've seen it so many times before, when all the holes in the cheese line up and someone then says "We didn't realise that could happen".

Agreed!!

tescoapp
20th Sep 2018, 13:16
Nobody wants to drive lorry's or buses these days. Even 20 years ago when I did my last full weeks work driving an artic it was a struggle getting bums on seats.

We had one driver that couldn't reverse a trailer to save his life. So they stuck him on the trunk routes with trailer swaps in laybys Another that if he left the dual carriageway he was lost inside 5 mins. Another couple who weren't allowed the high bread trailers because it was only a matter of time before they hit a bridge again.

BTW my first run as a civi in a C+E aged 21 and 1 day was with auld man Brackenridge in the seat next to me. I had been driving his 7.5 tonner off and on since I was 18. Great morning we had up to collect the soup. But I bet not many owners go to check out there lads these days.

radeng
20th Sep 2018, 15:52
At least one preserved railway has an age limit of 70 for all operational staff - drivers, firemen, guards, shunters, signalmen etc.

Sallyann1234
20th Sep 2018, 17:15
The dementia issue has only come to light recently and has been given as a reason why he is unfit to stand trial (draw your own conclusions from that!)
Some forms of dementia can strike very quickly, certainly less than the three years this has taken to come to trial. There is no point in standing someone in the Dock if they are not aware of their surroundings.
Having said that it does seem there were early signs while he was still driving and he should have been stopped then.

tescoapp
20th Sep 2018, 17:25
My grandfather went from able to look after himself to 30 seconds short term memory in the space of 24 hours.

Vascular dementia is an utter swine.

ExSp33db1rd
21st Sep 2018, 07:22
If airline pilots can be obliged to stop flying commercially at a given age, why do you reckon that bus drivers can't be subject to an age limit?

and airline pilots are largely controlled by an agency that prevents them flying into one another. As I drive down our narrow, frequently unsuitable for purpose, NZ roads, I wonder how many drivers hurtling towards me at a closing speed of 200 kph have even seen a doctor in the last few years ?

Legally I still hold a valid NZ Commercial Pilots licence at age 84, but am restricted to what "privileges" I can use it for, now only non-commercial and only carrying one passenger, this due to the level of medical standards that I can totally achieve, there being no absolute cut off solely due to age. Somewhat stupidly in my opinion, but I am not drawing attention to it (! ) I am legal to die in the air and possibly kill one person, but not 2 or more !

ShotOne
21st Sep 2018, 08:23
Interesting comment, speedbird, especially since the Oz/NZ rules are the principal argument being put forward by those wanting to scrap age limits here. And also, that the majority on this thread appear to disagree with the lack of limits for U.K. professional drivers. Possibly in both cases, increased/no age limits will have to be accompanied by more intensive medical examinations.

Sallyann1234
21st Sep 2018, 09:01
Somewhat stupidly in my opinion, but I am not drawing attention to it (! ) I am legal to die in the air and possibly kill one person, but not 2 or more !
Depends where you land.
The 77 year old bus driver didn't kill himself or any of his passengers.

tescoapp
21st Sep 2018, 09:06
It doesn't matter if it's hgv psv or car there should be a progressive ramping up of both medical ,eyesight and competence testing with age to have the privilege of being able to drive a vechile on the public road.

If you pass your good to go, if you fail any of the three your right to drive is removed instantly. There should also be the ability for police to suspend rights until all three are completed out of phase if they witness incompetent driving or you have an accident which may be due to any of the three due age.

PJD1
21st Sep 2018, 09:36
The 77 year old bus driver didn't kill himself or any of his passengers.

Yes he did, he killed one of his passengers and one pedestrian.

Sallyann1234
21st Sep 2018, 09:45
Yes he did, he killed one of his passengers and one pedestrian.
Thank you for the correction. I understood it was only pedestrians who were killed

​​​But the point remains that it is innocent third parties who can be affected. My brother has suffered years of pain and disability after being knocked off his bicycle by an 84 year old car driver. After he was taken off in an ambulance, the driver handed his licence to the police and got a bus home.

Sallyann1234
21st Sep 2018, 09:55
It's time that ALL drivers are retested at regular intervals, perhaps every five years when young and at reducing intervals with age.
It could be a relatively simple test on a simulator, checking for alertness and eyesight. Failure of the test and on a second test a month later would reduce the driver's licence to learner status.

Krystal n chips
21st Sep 2018, 10:08
It's time that ALL drivers are retested at regular intervals, perhaps every five years when young and at reducing intervals with age.
It could be a relatively simple test on a simulator, checking for alertness and eyesight. Failure of the test and on a second test a month later would reduce the driver's licence to learner status.

That's a very commendable suggestion, and I think most people would agree in principle. However, there's the practicality to consider, notably a shortage of sims plus examiners and how long it would take to make such tests legally enforceable. ....albeit tax, insurance and M.o.T's already are, but conveniently ignored by tossers who don't care about such requirements. Sadly, the only time driver competence comes to light is after the accident as matters currently stand.

Sallyann1234
21st Sep 2018, 10:31
That's a very commendable suggestion, and I think most people would agree in principle. However, there's the practicality to consider, notably a shortage of sims plus examiners and how long it would take to make such tests legally enforceable. ....albeit tax, insurance and M.o.T's already are, but conveniently ignored by tossers who don't care about such requirements. Sadly, the only time driver competence comes to light is after the accident as matters currently stand.
Of course it would take years to bring in such a system, plenty of time to introduce simulators that would be fully automatic. Just an invigilator required in a room with several cubicles.

But your point about enforcement is well made.

WingNut60
21st Sep 2018, 10:38
It's time that ALL drivers are retested at regular intervals, perhaps every five years when young and at reducing intervals with age.
It could be a relatively simple test on a simulator, checking for alertness and eyesight. Failure of the test and on a second test a month later would reduce the driver's licence to learner status.

This has all been done to death in other previous threads.
Apply a little Pareto and you'll soon find that elderly drivers are the least of your worries.
Incompetent drivers, yes. But that's how they are when they get their first license.
And now let's have a look at drug affected drivers.
No current measures are having any affect at all on that little snake pit.

The number of incidents causrelated to or caused by driver health, or vehicle condition for that matter is miniscule compared to the more common factors; speeding, alcohol, drugs, fatigue, inattention.

ExSp33db1rd
21st Sep 2018, 10:41
No longer familiar with UK regs. but here in NZ we have to undergo driving licence renewal, subject only to a medical certificate, every 2 years after the age of 80. ( unless a road test has also been demanded by the Police following some incident ? ) Just renewed mine, ( 84 to 86 ) and asked the Doctor to actually certify me as being medically fit to drive a commercial vehicle with passengers ( not a big bus, but some of the more generously equipped small People Movers ) which is to a higher standard than the basic car medical, which he was able to do even tho' my licence is not valid for such vehicles, and I won't be, as this is the med. certificate required by the CAA to use my downgraded CPL to fly aircraft "recreationally" with a maximum of one passenger ( regardless of the number of seats available ) . This also allows me to continue riding my motor-bike.

WingNut60
21st Sep 2018, 10:55
....... only to a medical certificate, every 2 years after the age of 80.......

That's sensible. I'd even go along with starting at 70 and 5 years.

But testing 22 and 27 year olds only makes sense to someone impressed by rampant bureaucracy.

oldpax
21st Sep 2018, 13:11
I often use "National express" from Heathrow to the west country,a journey I have begun to hate.The drivers are I am sure exceeding the speed limit and passing other large vehicles you can almost touch them.No alternative ,well only the train if you want to stand all the way.No flights to Exeter and I don't want to go to Newquay!Same coming back to Heathrow leaving at 0300hrs does not make for a good days travelling.Mind you they exchange drivers at taunton !Dread to think what a 75 year old would drive like(on a bus I mean!)

treadigraph
21st Sep 2018, 13:54
That's odd, I thought like lorries that coaches were limited to 60mph in the UK but I see they're not.

Walking back from the pub last night, we saw a white Audi A3 with all the chav extras turn right towards us at a roundabout without indicating and hassle some kids who were already crossing the road; he then accelerated towards us as we crossed on a zebra crossing and only deigned to back off as I semi-paused mid crossing and glared at him - he then accelerated and scraped past behind us; illegal tinted windows so could not see age or anything else about the driver. It was raining and the road surface was wet.

He - it had to be a he - and all drivers like him need to be educated and re-tested following any aggressive and dangerous driving for which they are apprehended, and also be subjected to increasingly swingeing punishments for driving misdemeanors. I'd start with £50 apiece for the tints and the chav wheels which are probably standard but look chavvish to me.:)

This is actually just around the corner from where an elderly man crashed into a house last week; straight piece of road, very early in the morning on a wet road. Don't know any other details other than fortunately no casualties.

ShotOne
21st Sep 2018, 14:12
Your driverís not necessarily speeding oldpax. HGV speed limiters are set to 56mph. For coaches itís 62 or 65mph depending on age of the vehicle.

Sallyann1234
21st Sep 2018, 14:12
It's not all elderly drivers..

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/teenage-novice-driver-wrong-side-15179993

PJD1
21st Sep 2018, 14:17
That's odd, I thought like lorries that coaches were limited to 60mph in the UK but I see they're not.

HGV's are fitted with speed limiters set to a maximum of 90kph / 56mph, (The EU regulation specifies 85kph but there is a 5kph tolerance allowed hence 90kph). The legal maximum speed limit for HGV's on motorways and dual carriageways is 60mph. Coaches are fitted with speed limiters set to a maximum of 100kph / 62mph. The legal maximum speed limit for coaches under 12m in length is 70mph on motorways, 60mph on dual carriageways.

treadigraph
21st Sep 2018, 14:34
Thanks PJD.

The Nip
21st Sep 2018, 16:37
That's odd, I thought like lorries that coaches were limited to 60mph in the UK but I see they're not.

Walking back from the pub last night, we saw a white Audi A3 with all the chav extras turn right towards us at a roundabout without indicating and hassle some kids who were already crossing the road; he then accelerated towards us as we crossed on a zebra crossing and only deigned to back off as I semi-paused mid crossing and glared at him - he then accelerated and scraped past behind us; illegal tinted windows so could not see age or anything else about the driver. It was raining and the road surface was wet.

He - it had to be a he - and all drivers like him need to be educated and re-tested following any aggressive and dangerous driving for which they are apprehended, and also be subjected to increasingly swingeing punishments for driving misdemeanors. I'd start with £50 apiece for the tints and the chav wheels which are probably standard but look chavvish to me.:)

This is actually just around the corner from where an elderly man crashed into a house last week; straight piece of road, very early in the morning on a wet road. Don't know any other details other than fortunately no casualties.

I can't disagree with what you have said. The problem is it is rare to see traffic police in local areas.
For many reasons, traffic policing now appears to be predominantly carried out by cameras. This means everything is right or wrong. Going over the limit by a few mph at 7 am on a Sunday morning could be 3 points and a fine. Driving aggressively whilst under the influence of drink or drugs, unlucky to get caught.

On my morning walk with my dog, I have to walk along a main road which leads in to the town centre. The traffic is mostly trickling along. It is only about 4 mins while I walk along, but I generally see no less that 15 - 20 drivers texting, watching tv on their IPad's, using mobiles, having breakfast,(bowl & spoon), applying make up etc. Some have small children in the back as well. It seems common practice. I don't think this attitude will change now it is so entrenched.

treadigraph
21st Sep 2018, 17:03
Agreed Mr Nip. Croydon have imposed a blanket 20mph speed limit on all roads they control, ie everything bar the "A" roads which are Highways England or TFL's responsibility. Virtually nobody observes that limit nor is it apparently policed. In fact I saw a police car sans bell and lights doing at least 30 the other day. Van yesterday was doing 40mph plus - isn't twice the speed limit an instant ban?

Gertrude the Wombat
21st Sep 2018, 23:05
However, there's the practicality to consider, notably ...
... that drivers have votes.