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BehindBlueEyes
14th Sep 2018, 12:06
Interview on the BBC this morning, with a woman in North Carolina, complaining that very little was done to assist those with disabilities whenever a hurricane was imminent. Whenever I’ve been in the southern States, any potential storm is plotted tracked very closely - sometimes for over week, therefore surely plenty of time to make appropriate arrangements?

According to the interviewee, 1 in 4 in the USA is registered disabled; a large proportion of the population, so is she correct or is this another example of the ‘help me, I’m a victim’ society?

The BBC do seem to love these type of stories.

bafanguy
14th Sep 2018, 12:12
According to the interviewee, 1 in 4 in the USA is registered disabled; a large proportion of the population...

That's a pretty bold claim. Makes for a good story as long as you don't have to explain or show stats and their source. :rolleyes:

PDR1
14th Sep 2018, 12:58
I'm assuming that the number includes the mentally disabled, but then I would have expected the figure to be MUCH higher, given the election result...

PDR

West Coast
14th Sep 2018, 13:07
Yes, TDS is a mental health issue.

KenV
14th Sep 2018, 14:19
Interview on the BBC this morning, with a woman in North Carolina, complaining that very little was done to assist those with disabilities whenever a hurricane was imminent. Whenever I’ve been in the southern States, any potential storm is plotted tracked very closely - sometimes for over week, therefore surely plenty of time to make appropriate arrangements?

According to the interviewee, 1 in 4 in the USA is registered disabled; a large proportion of the population, so is she correct or is this another example of the ‘help me, I’m a victim’ society?

The BBC do seem to love these type of stories.If this were remotely true, about 1 in 4 cars would have a disabled placard and 1 in 4 parking spaces would be reserved for those cars with disabled placards. In fact, a small minority of cars have disabled placards and usually only one or two parking stalls are reserved for the disabled. If it's a very large parking lot maybe 4 to 6 stalls. This claim is utter bollox.

If by "assist" she means public employees boarding up the windows in her home, putting pumps in her basement, and installing an emergency generator, then she is correct. But it is my opinion such services for private individuals, whether disabled or not, are not the responsibility of any level of government.

Ken V.

annakm
14th Sep 2018, 14:37
According to the US Government census roughly 19% are registered with some form of disability. So, approximately 1 in 5.

Pontius Navigator
14th Sep 2018, 18:49
KenV, I am differently abled, I don't have a blue badge. Yesterday I had to wait until the driver of the car next to me returned.

I do not qualify for a blue badge, as I can walk for miles and just spent the afternoon putting up a shed.

My disability makes it very difficult getting in or out of a car.

Sallyann1234
14th Sep 2018, 18:57
It's the "whenever a hurricane was imminent." that I picked up on.
Why one anyone, particularly someone with a disability, want to live in an area predictably affected by hurricanes? Surely there are safer places to live?

Um... lifting...
14th Sep 2018, 21:55
Why one anyone, particularly someone with a disability, want to live in an area predictably affected by hurricanes? Surely there are safer places to live?

Maybe they were born there, always lived there, haven't the means or inclination to relocate. Maybe it's not a question of what they want. Maybe they have family there who they thought would help, and those people can't or won't. You might as well ask why the wind blows.

It's arrogance writ large to just assume they can or are willing to relocate. Hurricanes impact every bit of Atlantic coastal area to several hundred miles inland from Brownsville to Boston, which covers probably well over half the population of the country. Where would you have them move?

I'm forever fascinated how denizens of the UK, a place which has precisely one Köppen climatic region (if we skip the top of one cairn in Scotland), like to shove their oar in on how things ought to be to the United States on everything from building codes to evacuation plans. If you ever understood how dopey these assumptions are, then you might finally get the motivation behind the American Revolution, though I'm not optimistic. After all, few of you have figured it out yet. The U.S., by the way, has somewhere upward of 20 distinct climatic regions.

WRT generalized federal hurricane response. No matter what you do, it won't be enough. I worked Andrew. I was based down there, so I was there when the DoD assets began coming in.

A C-5 loaded with MREs showed up unannounced a day after the storm went through. I guess their tasking was "haul these MREs to somewhere in S. Florida where they'll let you land." You ever unload a C-5 without the proper gear? It ain't easy.

The Navy got underway from Norfolk following the storm with a couple amphibious ships and a whole lot of air assets close to the FL coast for post-storm response. MSC supply ships brought food and other supplies which were brought into staging areas all over S. Florida following the storm. The ships were doing desalination of sea water Helicopters were sling-loading things like pallets of drinking water or thousands of dozens of eggs all day long. Contrast that with Florence, where an amphibious group was in trail of the storm all the way in, prepared to launch as soon as conditions permit.

The Army brought field kitchens and set them up in a number of locations, set up eating facilities and staging areas for the helicopters from the supply ships. Local grandmothers rapidly tired of Army chow and decided to teach these soldiers how to cook properly. The Army brought a regiment or two of its own helicopters and set up an ATC scheme with portable radars (everything from KMIA south was destroyed) to provide helicopter separation. The Army National Guard also supplied security, ground rescue and medical personnel. I am forgetting thousands of things 26 years later, but the point is, all that is remembered now is what a crappy job the government did.

There wasn't a tree standing on the island of Key Biscayne after the hurricane. The control tower at then-Homestead AFB had its bulletproof glass blown out and nothing in it but a stubby coil of wire hanging from the ceiling which I assume had been for the Aldis lamp. The recording anemometer had taken down I believe 160 knots before the measuring bit blew off its mounts or was otherwise destroyed. The VIP lounge at Homestead had a 14-passenger van inverted in the reception area. Of the several dozen hangars at Tamiami, about 3 were standing following the storm. There was a 727 at KMIA that was inverted. Hangar doors were ripped from their moorings and found later miles away. As temporary roof repairs for homes, blue tarps were stretched over residences. As a helicopter pilot, it's pretty easy to figure out how many houses have major roof problems when they are bright blue. Like all my colleagues, I got to fly a number of major and minor political and bureaucratic figures around following the storm. The devastation is difficult to convey, and even when under mandatory evacuation orders, a number of residents decide to shelter in place. You're the sheriff, you have a few idiots who decide to shelter in place. How much of your finite manpower do you expend trying to get these people to see sweet reason versus keeping the traffic flowing on the hurricane evacuation routes? You live in the Florida Keys. It's 120 miles of 2-lane road from Key West (4-lane if they reverse the southbound bit for evacuation) just to get onto the peninsula and then another nearly 400 to Jacksonville. And everybody needs fuel.

No matter what you do, no matter how many how many excellent photos of babies being winched from rooftops or of dogs getting in rescue baskets, people are going to die due to power outages, high temperatures, lack of medicine, dehydration, acute injury, infection, theft, personal ineptitude, lack of communications or transport, you name it. An island makes it worse. An island with a corrupt local government even more so. Well-meaning people donate all sorts of ridiculous (and useless) things to hurricane relief, one imagines it's a substitute for a garage sale. Properly selected and stocked items get lost or deliberately aren't installed after storms. Following Maria, critical parts for electrical grid rebuilding were being stored under lock and key by the local government, not the feds. Electricians attempting to access these parts were rebuffed. Other electricians from other parts of the country were recalled by their home utilities, so there was a shortage of trained labor. Puerto Ricans, as a rule, have ties to people in the mainland U.S., and a whole lot of those people who could move, did, temporarily or otherwise. Those who didn't were the less able, the poor, the unable to fend for themselves, and those who prey upon the weak. Trump's no bargain, but laying all of Maria at his feet shows a decided lack of knowledge or firsthand experience with hurricanes.

WingNut60
14th Sep 2018, 22:28
.....The U.S., by the way, has somewhere upward of 20 distinct climatic regions.

Yet there are only 6 5?? MAIN Koppen climate classifications.

And I really don't see how you would rank Kent againt the Hebrides

obgraham
14th Sep 2018, 22:29
Um... it's just part of the national arrogance, going back a century or two to the Glorious Colonial Era. In which Britain presumed that its ways were preferable to those of, well, everyone else. Lots of them haven't really moved beyond that yet.

Want another example? UK postage stamps. None of them say UK on them, and they never have. We're just supposed to know that if it is mail, unless stated otherwise on the stamp, it's British.

KelvinD
14th Sep 2018, 22:42
obgraham: We are still doing it!
Take our armed forces; we have The Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Royal Air Force and the Army. Not a mention of the country!

Um... lifting...
14th Sep 2018, 22:49
Yet there are only 6 5?? MAIN Koppen climate classifications.

And I really don't see how you would rank Kent againt the Hebrides

And here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about. I didn't state MAIN climate classifications, you did. Yes, 5 MAIN Köppen (or Koeppen, if you prefer, but it's not Koppen). There are also up to 4 secondary classifications and up to 4 tertiary classifications, making (if my calculations are correct) some 29 distinct climatic region possibilities in total. That's what I said, which was not what YOU said.

I wouldn't rank Kent against the Hebrides, I just know how those people whose trade it is to do such things have done it, and they're classified the same, as Temperate, Cfb. So take it up with them.

SARF
14th Sep 2018, 22:56
Wimbledon, ‘The’ Open... the list goes down on

G-CPTN
14th Sep 2018, 23:57
Wimbledon, ‘The’ Open... the list goes down on
Doesn't the USA have the World Series?

finfly1
15th Sep 2018, 00:18
Thanks lifting for saying it, and for saying it so well.

Long overdue on these pages it is.

Um... lifting...
15th Sep 2018, 00:23
Doesn't the USA have the World Series?

Of professional baseball, yes. Some sources (Simon Winchester for one) believe it is so-called due to the now defunct New York World newspaper, though other sources dispute this. Prior to 1903, the championship series of professional baseball (or base ball, as it was known then) was variously known as "The Championship of The United States", "World's Championship Series", or "World's Series" for short. There were various competing leagues battling it out for business supremacy and those that ultimately survived decided upon the name.

If you think a British team can win, do feel free to petition for them to compete in the standard 162-game regular season schedule (that's before the playoffs commence).

As for the World Series of self-importance, that's a distinctly British event. The schedule is erratic, but more or less continuous.

West Coast
15th Sep 2018, 03:28
obgraham: We are still doing it!
Take our armed forces; we have The Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Royal Air Force and the Army. Not a mention of the country!


It would seem the army know which country they fight for.

https://www.army.mod.uk/

WingNut60
15th Sep 2018, 03:52
And here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about. I didn't state MAIN climate classifications, you did. Yes, 5 MAIN Köppen (or Koeppen, if you prefer, but it's not Koppen). There are also up to 4 secondary classifications and up to 4 tertiary classifications, making (if my calculations are correct) some 29 distinct climatic region possibilities in total. That's what I said, which was not what YOU said.

I wouldn't rank Kent against the Hebrides, I just know how those people whose trade it is to do such things have done it, and they're classified the same, as Temperate, Cfb. So take it up with them.

I know I said MAIN, I said it. Specifically and deliberately.
And yes you are correct about the spelling. I simply could not be so pedantic as to go chasing an umlaut just to satisfy ... well anyone really.

The point that i was raising, and obviously missed by you was that if you apply the finest classification scale to two areas, one being, say, 16 times the area of the other then you are very likely to find that one may also have 16 (or 21) times the variance in the measured parameters.

take a moment. think about it.

sitigeltfel
15th Sep 2018, 07:17
Um... it's just part of the national arrogance, going back a century or two to the Glorious Colonial Era. In which Britain presumed that its ways were preferable to those of, well, everyone else. Lots of them haven't really moved beyond that yet.

Want another example? UK postage stamps. None of them say UK on them, and they never have. We're just supposed to know that if it is mail, unless stated otherwise on the stamp, it's British.

The Queen's portrait on them might be a slight clue.

:ugh:

sitigeltfel
15th Sep 2018, 07:27
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/320x240/80-efc38c712e998a0b376348f6d871faae5e115dbe64b867da632b615e4035 9b9d_2e126ee16623d410af2b5fa5e861946971c3412c.png

obgraham
15th Sep 2018, 07:31
The Queen's portrait on them might be a slight clue.

:ugh:

Indeed, all the world should acknowledge HM.

You seem to have missed my point completely.

sitigeltfel
15th Sep 2018, 07:34
You seem to have missed my point completely.

That's because you didn't have one.

Pontius Navigator
15th Sep 2018, 07:41
At least one of our world services has British in its name :)

Sallyann1234
15th Sep 2018, 08:45
Want another example? UK postage stamps. None of them say UK on them, and they never have. We're just supposed to know that if it is mail, unless stated otherwise on the stamp, it's British.
That's easily explained. When we invented adhesive postage stamps, there was no need for a country name since no other country used them. Other countries who copied the principle had to use their names to show that they weren't British. :ok:

Um... lifting...
15th Sep 2018, 14:45
take a moment. think about it.

I did, and had. How often do Americans weigh in on flooding events in British towns and recommend that residents relocate? The answer to that of course is pretty much never, even though we have virtually identical issues in many of our eastern river systems and could probably comment with some authority on the matter.

Yet Britons and expatriate Britons and wannabe Britons, many of whom have never set foot in the United States just love telling us how we should reorder our priorities related to weather issues of which they simply have not the faintest inkling. Britons consider an 80-knot wind event or a temperature of 0ºF to be extreme weather.

We don't.

take a moment. think about it.

Pontius Navigator
15th Sep 2018, 15:27
Um lifting, I think the difference may be down to media coverage. I have been to the States but sampling your international media coverage of, for instance, floods or snow in UK is very low on my priorities. Does your media report such events?

In UK our media reports such disasters as 'news' though they never follow through with the recovery, that is left to the charity industry.

WhatsaLizad?
15th Sep 2018, 16:28
Pontious

Unless an event happens within driving distance of the New York media centers, it generally doesn't exist, and if it does it's a very serious event that might get coverage, but even then it is quickly forgotten unless they can instigate some political blame on Republicans and conservatives.

Floods and tragedies in the UK? Quick 15 seconds of lifted YouTube footage then buh-bye. Same thing happens with events throughout the US, unless some idiot reporter can drive from Manhattan or do a quick return visit by air. Throw some charges of Republican "oppression" or alleged racism and they unleash their media panzer division.

A few years ago there were some major floods in the Nashville area. The local governments and churches along with the community jumped in to work together to solve the problem locally. Story died about as quick as a Bangladeshi Super Typhoon strike.

It is sad. International news coverage sucks here. Even worse now, all they can do is scream 23.8 hours a day is that Trump is a jerk. (Uhhhhhh, everyone knew that when electing him)

WingNut60
15th Sep 2018, 18:08
........Yet Britons and expatriate Britons and wannabe Britons, many of whom have never set foot in the United States.......

FYI, I do not match any of the above criteria.
My comment was based entirely on what I considered, and still consider, to be a lop-sided comparison.

But I will add another comment, and that is that you added building codes to the list of "irrational criticisms".
If unsupported then can you please tell us (me) the reason that timber framed houses are allowed in zones susceptible to tornados.
Or why trailer parks are not forced to close in those areas during the tornado season.

When you see the piles of splintered lumber on TV it's pretty hard to not assume that there is a problem with the building codes.

WhatsaLizad?
16th Sep 2018, 03:34
When you see the piles of splintered lumber on TV it's pretty hard to not assume that there is a problem with the building codes.

I would note for you and those that may be unfamiliar with the potential intensity of a US tornado that although rare, strong EF-5 tornadoes in more than a few instances have scoured US homes down to a point where only less than a meter of plumbing is left sticking up from a bare concrete slab and in at least one instance, the asphalt on the roads was peeled off completely. I think the old ICBM missile silos are the only sure survival option for at least 1/3 of the country.

Grew up in the Midwest US, now live in hurricane land. I'll take them any day over a siren suddenly blaring at 4 am giving a 10 minute notice equal to something like a V2 rocket inbound for the neighborhood.

WingNut60
16th Sep 2018, 04:28
I do not in any way under-estimate the ferocity and intensity of US weather events.
But I do know that improved building standards WILL reduce damage and improve chances of survival even in the case of EF-5 tornadoes which account for a very small percentage of overall damage.
I read not so long ago of a town / city in Oklahoma that finally commissioned a cost / benefit analysis for upgrading building standards after being hit with three major tornadoes in something like a 15 year period.
The findings found heavily in favour of upgrading to a 135 mph standard, if I remember ccorrectly.

But that's after being hit with three tornadoes.
Seems like they follow Japanese decision making protocols.

And, for the record, the US does not have any unique exposure to these major weather events.
The only thing that makes them even remotely unique is population density in the storm path areas and global TV coverage.

Ogre
16th Sep 2018, 05:49
I did, and had. How often do Americans weigh in on flooding events in British towns and recommend that residents relocate? The answer to that of course is pretty much never, even though we have virtually identical issues in many of our eastern river systems and could probably comment with some authority on the matter.

When you can show that more than a minority of Americans understand the existence of the world outside the US borders, then I might agree with you. It comes down to the media, reporting whatever means they get the biggest headlines.

So does the US media at the moment mention the hurricanes in the Phillipines? When California has bushfires they obviously report it, but when Australia had Ash Wednesday or Black Saturday did if make the headlines? Part of the American mindset is to report American, and the rest of the world follows way down the list. This may explain your intent on telling the rest of us where to go because in your thinking America is the greatest place in the world and no-one should contradict it.

ExSp33db1rd
16th Sep 2018, 06:00
in fact, a small minority of cars have disabled placards

Not in Santa Monica, California. My observation during my recent visit was that 90% of parked cars on the street parking meters were displaying the Blue Badge, i.e. free street parking, to enable the "disabled" to park outside the Bank, Post Office, Bar, etc. even saw one on a Builders Ute, loaded with material,which was then unloaded by two young males apparently aged mid-20's, who carried their stuff into the building where they were working. But then .... maybe they were disabled, mentally ? Mental disability seems to be a frequent defence in US Courts, but when "nearly" half the electorate voted for The Donald, is that a surprise ?

A lot of the problem in S.Monica would appear to be due to the fact that some of the labels seem to be valid for 12 months, at least some of the ones I scrutinised had been renewed until July 2019, so where are the checks and balances to see that permits are withdrawn when a, maybe, temporary qualifying disability is been eradicated. For instance, a friend had a temporary disability and had been issued with a Blue Badge but had no bureaucratic requirement to hand it back when she recovered. She drove us around, with relatively easy parking, we took advantage of it !

When you can show that more than a minority of Americans understand the existence of the world outside the US borders, then I might agree with you.

Absolutely. ( and I'm not Anti-American, after all --- I married one ! )

meadowrun
16th Sep 2018, 07:10
Kinda glad the banal ......la,,,,la,,,la,,,,,,It's Myrtle Beach Time..........la..la...la..... commercial is off the air for the time being.

Piper.Classique
16th Sep 2018, 18:57
The glider hangar at the Long Mynd was designed to withstand 130ktts.
i believe it's only been tested once. It's still there That's in Shropshire, on the Welsh border. In the UK.

WingNut60
16th Sep 2018, 23:02
Oz building codes for all new buildings in cyclone affected zones (say 6,500 km of coastline and running inland some distance) calls for "low end class 4 (225 km/h)" as a minimum.plus other provisos re-glazing, etc.
These codes were enacted soon after the 1974 Darwin cyclone.
Caveat - much of that coast line is sparsely populated.

Insurance rates also affect residents of the zone quite harshly.

Pontius Navigator
17th Sep 2018, 08:51
I think the media news balance is a result of 24 news coverage and lack of sufficient NEWS in a small island whereas USA is large enough that it doesn't need World news. I wonder if European news channels are filled with the same disaster coverage as UK.

And yet again we see on-the-spot reporters standing out wind and rain, storm an peril and usually bare headed, or should that be bone-headed? One yesterday did have hard hat with chin strap. He then said local authorities said that people should keep off the streets and in doors.

Nemrytter
17th Sep 2018, 09:51
Most Brits, and indeed most Europeans, don't understand just how severe weather in the USA gets. It's beyond anything experienced by the vast majority of people over here. That tends to mean, especially in the case of Brits, that they offer useless comments based on their own - completely unrelated and incomparable - experiences.

tescoapp
17th Sep 2018, 09:59
If you see posts from people from Shetland or Western isles from UK.

They are well up to speed on 100 mph plus winds.

Pinky the pilot
17th Sep 2018, 11:09
. Local grandmothers rapidly tired of Army chow and decided to teach these soldiers how to cook properly

I would have loved to have seen (and tasted) the results of that!!:D:ok:

Um... lifting...
18th Sep 2018, 04:19
When you can show that more than a minority of Americans understand the existence of the world outside the US borders, then I might agree with you. It comes down to the media, reporting whatever means they get the biggest headlines.

When you can show that the percentage of Americans who understand the existence of the world outside the US borders is my responsibility, I might take on that task. Until then, you're on your own. I personally understand the existence of the world outside the US borders and indeed have visited, lived in, and worked in a fair bit of it, but yet I still don't stick my oar in to tell Britons how to manage their river flooding.

For you to attempt to task me with such nitwittery as you allude to above would be tantamount to me holding you responsible for the existence of chavs. So, what's say you call the whole thing off.