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Rotor Work
11th Sep 2018, 06:47
No links as yet but Tasmanian-owned Par Avion has been approved by the Malaysian Civil Aviation Authority to operate a pilot training school for AirAsia pilot cadets. The airline plans to send up to 75 cadets a year to Tasmania with the cadets being trained at Cambridge & possibly Devonport Airport.
Good for Par Avion,

PoppaJo
11th Sep 2018, 06:54
The issue is training them to Western standards then going back home to a culture of third world standards where they pull circuit breakers mid flight and reset things over and over to avoid maintenance. Once the eyes have seen it there is no going back.

Centaurus
11th Sep 2018, 07:10
then going back home to a culture of third world standards
One example being an operator from a neighbour to the north west of Australia regularly dispatching some of its 737's with two out of three of its pressurisation systems u/s and operating manual pressurisation. This has led to further pressurisation problems requiring rapid descents and the company directing its crews not to squawk 7700 because of the paperwork involved when a rapid descent occurs.. Gen from the horses mouth.

Mach E Avelli
11th Sep 2018, 08:35
All the more reason to train them to Western standards.
In time and with enough exposure we can mould young minds to challenge the old guard, culture notwithstanding.
A few failures along the way is to be expected; we should not hesitate to send those home.
But generally young Asians are successful in many disciplines, and we all know flying is hardly brain surgery.
So there is no reason to believe we can’t teach them to be safe pilots.

PoppaJo
11th Sep 2018, 11:59
We can teach them high standards and high levels of airmanship. Thatís where it ends for some. Chinese and Singaporean carriers have largely run successful cadet programs, that are backed up by quality and rigorous check and training systems back home.

Then youíve got the circus operators that live and breathe coverups, corruption, and just plain stupidity. Iíll leave it to your imagination who these are.

dr dre
11th Sep 2018, 15:02
We can teach them high standards and high levels of airmanship. Thatís where it ends for some. Chinese and Singaporean carriers have largely run successful cadet programs, that are backed up by quality and rigorous check and training systems back home.

Then youíve got the circus operators that live and breathe coverups, corruption, and just plain stupidity. Iíll leave it to your imagination who these are.

I severely doubt the Chinese carriers have quality and rigourous check and training systems and are corruption free.

But I agree with Mach e Avelli, those low cost third world carriers arenít going anywhere. Air Asia isnít going to stop flying just because Australians decide not to train their pilots. Theyíll just set up a flying school elsewhere and their cadets will probably not get a thorough dose of airmanship instilled into them at that early ab initio stage. And it deprives Australians here of jobs in flight training, especially in our most struggling state economically. How anyone could comment on this news in a negative way is beyond me?

TBM-Legend
12th Sep 2018, 03:23
Congratulations to Par Avion for securing more training business. Good for them, Tassie and Australia....

Duck Pilot
12th Sep 2018, 09:32
If Pat Avion actually have won a contract to train the pilots, that is absolutely sensational, not only for the company, but also for Tasmania.

i just hope they can employ and retain enough suitabley qualified instructors.

I wish I still lived in Tasmania, I would certainly throw my hat in the ring to help out.

Tall poppies, pull you headin and go away. 🤬

Mr Approach
15th Sep 2018, 01:09
CAR 92 states that pilots cannot be trained at an ALA (Cambridge) until the General Flying Test has been passed!

Does that still exist?

havick
15th Sep 2018, 03:22
CAR 92 states that pilots cannot be trained at an ALA (Cambridge) until the General Flying Test has been passed!

Does that still exist?

why donít you research it and report back.

good for them winning a contract rather than it going somewhere else in the world

Duck Pilot
15th Sep 2018, 05:51
Obviously not, they have been training out of there for years. Quite a bit of training is done from a few ALAís around the outskirts of Melbourne as well.

LeadSled
15th Sep 2018, 08:15
I severely doubt the Chinese carriers have quality and rigourous check and training systems and are corruption free.



dre,
I would dispute that, based on my personal experience with two major Chinese groups, both from the level of ab nitio training, and check and training within the parent airline. Being, in a past life, a HCRPT Check and Trainer, I know rigorous training standards when I see them.

Indeed, one of the two has been closely associated with Lufthansa for both flying and maintenance standards, the other with US carriers and others, including Qantas. The Chinese, aviation wise, do not have a "we know best" superiority complex, like Dick Smith, they will take the best from anywhere.

China had long had a policy of sending the best and brightest to western educational institutions, this is not limited to aircrew. For airlines, China Southern was the first, close to forty years ago.

In one specific instance, an engineering outfit with aviation and other interests, over 70% of the staff had tertiary qualifications, of those about a further 60% had post graduate degrees, almost all from outside China.The CEO had a PhD from MIT, those don't come on the top of a Corn Flakes packet. Most of the people I was dealing with on this project also had spent years working outside China. The GMs son was just completing an accountancy degree at ANU during our project.

This company's probably biggest problem will be finding enough competent instructors to achieve the standards the locals will demand.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Where it counts, including flight operations, the CAACRs mirror the FAA.

airdualbleedfault
15th Sep 2018, 08:56
Leadsled I flew for a Chinese career (not training them on light aircraft) over 4 years and you are full of it

LeadSled
15th Sep 2018, 09:26
Leadsled I flew for a Chinese career (not training them on light aircraft) over 4 years and you are full of it
My dear chap,
I can only speak from experience, which did not include me personally training them in light aircraft, that is your assumption, but our project involved wide body HCRPT.

I have no experience of some of the smaller and more recent airlines, but I would be very happy if I thought current airline senior management in Australia had the same focus on risk minimisation, ie "safety"., as those, with whom I was involved in China -- two of the "big four".

And, at the time, we even had a Vice-Minister, later Minister for Civil Aviation who was a current airline pilot (on B777) . That is not going to happen here any time soon, even if we did have one airline pilot Commonwealth politician many years ago.

Why did you only stay four years?? Seem like it was not a happy experience??
Tootle pip!!

pilotchute
15th Sep 2018, 10:21
I did ab initio training alongside Chinese Airline sponsored cadets.

​​​​​​I can tell you they aren't the brightest and the best. Airline pilot isn't a prestigious job in China. All of the cadets told me that in the last year of their engineering degrees (all studying in China) they sit aptitude tests and pretty much get told what jobs they are going to be placed in. None of them wanted to be pilots.

I can also tell you now they weren't held to the same standards as local students. Not even close. If they were they would all fail.

If we are too tough on them they find a place that will pass them.

Universities are they same. The Chinese students pay big fees so they always pass. Just because you study in a Western country doesn't mean you are at the same standard as local students in that country.

Let's not kid ourselves.

A37575
15th Sep 2018, 14:24
I can tell you they aren't the brightest and the best. Airline pilot isn't a prestigious job in China. All of the cadets told me that in the last year of their engineering degrees (all studying in China) they sit aptitude tests and pretty much get told what jobs they are going to be placed in. None of them wanted to be pilots.


I can vouch for that. Many years back I was involved training Chinese pilots who were learning to fly at Massey University in NZ. I asked some of them how they got into flying. They said they were given no choice. All were studying various disciplines at a Chinese University when "the authorities" arrived and directed all students at a certain level to undertake flight crew medicals. Those who passed were further streamed into would be military pilot training, while the rest were to be airline pilots eventually. One student was knocked back from pilot training because he had buck-teeth which was considered not a good look for a pilot. I saw little signs of enthusiasm for flying from these cadets.

Mach E Avelli
15th Sep 2018, 22:22
Pilotchute’s experience mirrors my own. For a while I was involved in jet transition training for a large Chinese Airline. There was no way most of the cadets would have reached normal Aussie standards in the time allocated.The CAAC required 20 hours of exposure to multi crew jet operations. There was no pass/fail grading, merely boxes to be ticked to state that the student had been instructed in particular sequences. We gave them a basic systems course on the aircraft, then a quckie co pilot endorsement (no simulator), then they flew from the RHS on routes of the instructor’s choosing.
The Chinese management were very dollar conscious and watched the hours flown. 15 minutes under the 20 hours was desirable. 15 minutes over meant a discussion with the boss to explain that ATC or weather got in the way. That the student needed a bit more time was not accepted as a reason.
For such a large airline the whole operation was a real shoe-string affair. Poor food, cramped living quarters, pocket money sent from China was held by the boss and doled out in such small amounts the cadets could only afford a bus ticket and a hamburger once a week. TV was streamed in from China, so they had little chance to improve their English by watching subversive Western programs.
Little wonder that most of these poor buggers were not motivated to be pilots.
Of course Malaysia is not China, so for Par Avion’s sake we should hope that there is less interference with standards.
It would be very helpful if Australian pilot training schools could play a part in cadet selection processes, then have complete control of campus life for the duration of their stay here. It is not as if in countries with such large populations the talent does not exist. It would be arrogant of us to think otherwise.

LeadSled
16th Sep 2018, 06:29
Folks,
One thing I would agree with, that being a pilot in China in not a highly regarded job, these days.
But if you bothered to read what I actually wrote, re. brightest and best, I was not referring to pilots, but university graduates already destined for bigger and better career prospects.
Whatever you think of the CCP Government, you have to give them one thing, they plan and act for the long term.
Tootle pip!!

pilotchute
16th Sep 2018, 09:17
Pity they can't make anything that doesn't fall apart after 10 minutes!

LeadSled
16th Sep 2018, 09:55
Pity they can't make anything that doesn't fall apart after 10 minutes!

PC,
What did you have in mind??
Have been using Lenovo computers for years, long post IBM, 100% reliability for more than 20 years.
Likewise phones, and TV etc.
Industrially I could list a long line of items where Made in PRC quality and durability are not in question.
Closer to aviation, do you know where the preferred 6 axis of motion simulator platforms come from and
Equal to the best visual systems.
Consumer junk is consumer junk, wherever it is made, do you buy a lot of consumer junk.
Tootle pip!!

Duck Pilot
16th Sep 2018, 13:22
They make good drones, I've got at DJI drone and it's crash proof IMO with a good pilot, only DJI drones that crash are due to user/pilot inexperience/stupidity.

Lookleft
16th Sep 2018, 13:31
They certainly do plan for the long term, the Premier got himself voted in for life basically. You can only really plan for the long term when you know who the leader will be.

pilotchute
16th Sep 2018, 14:56
I'm pretty sure that most things coming out of China that are good quality are western designs or technology they have "acquired" through honest means and not so honest. Have you owned a chinese made car? They are junk. How long did Comac work on that airliner? The totally original design that looks awfully like a DC9. Still took them 15 years.

They haven't had an original idea since gunpowder.

Al E. Vator
17th Sep 2018, 13:01
This is a win-win for both sides.

For goodness sakes donít go in with this ďIím Australian from a first world country and thus godís gift to aviation and you are inferior creaturesĒ mentality so often smugly forwarded in this country or youíll screw it for all concerned. Treat them like numpties, theyíll pack their bags, leave and get as good training elsewhere. Who wins then?

Yes on the whole, Australian aviation standards have had a lot longer to mature and are thus in some ways able to set good examples for students from countries where that is not the case. By the same token many of those countries have had such rapid advancement in the last 20 years it puts us to shame.

So cadets from Air Asia learning how to aviate and keep safe (and not fly dodgy approaches into OOL!) is fantastic. The money, culture and enthusiasm they bring to Tassie is terrific.

Well done to whomever organised this - a great plan and I hope it blossoms ��

TBM-Legend
17th Sep 2018, 13:36
Hear, Hear!