Boeing: desperate times call for desperate measures.

[underfire]

SEATTLE (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) is bringing retired workers back on the job as the world's largest planemaker tries to fix delays at its 737 jetliner plant outside Seattle, a union official told Reuters on Monday.

The snarl at its plant in Renton, Washington, triggered by shortages of engines and fuselages as Boeing sped production to record levels in June, is likely to hurt third-quarter results and threatens its goal to boost build rates again in 2019, some analysts said after meetings in the Seattle area last week.

Single-aisle aircraft like the hot-selling 737 and Airbus (AIR.PA) A320 families are the cash cows of the world's two largest aircraft manufacturers.

Investors will get a peek on Tuesday at how far behind Boeing is when it releases its order and delivery tallies for August, a month after deliveries fell to the lowest level in years. Deliveries are crucial to planemakers because that is when airlines pay most of what they owe for the aircraft.

Boeing started hiring retired mechanics and inspectors on a temporary basis after reaching an agreement with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers on Aug. 15, union spokeswoman Connie Kelliher said. Boeing had a similar agreement with the union last autumn following a round of voluntary layoffs, Kelliher said.

Boeing spokesman Paul Bergman said the company was dedicating additional resources to the Renton site "to ensure timely deliveries to our customers."
About 50 semi-finished 737s were scattered around the Renton plant last week, analysts said, several times the number of semi-finished aircraft Reuters reported in July.

Boeing largely attributes the snarl to shortages of fuselages from Wichita, Kansas-based Spirit AeroSystems Inc (SPR.N) and engines from CFM International Inc, a venture between France's Safran (SAF.PA) and General Electric Co (GE.N).

"We are working closely with our suppliers Spirit and CFM as they track toward recovery, as well as our customers," Bergman said. "Our team has been mitigating supplier delays, and our factory continues to build 52 airplanes per month."

CFM is working to fix delays by year-end, the GE-Safran venture said. Spirit did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

[b1lanc]

Ok, shortage of fuselages from Spirit, but about 50 semi-finished (I'd assume that includes fuselages) at Renton?

[Dee Vee]

SEATTLE (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) is bringing retired workers back on the job as the world's largest planemaker tries to fix delays at its 737 jetliner plant outside Seattle

Boeing started hiring retired mechanics and inspectors on a temporary basis after reaching an agreement with the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers on Aug. 15, union spokeswoman Connie Kelliher said. Boeing had a similar agreement with the union last autumn following a round of voluntary layoffs, Kelliher said.


Hopefully they have told Boeing they are are not going back without significant pay increases, commensurate with the experience they bring, and no need to train new workers :)

[KKoran]

Ok, shortage of fuselages from Spirit, but about 50 semi-finished (I'd assume that includes fuselages) at Renton?
There are B-737s crammed into every available space at Renton Airport. They closed a parallel taxiway to park some of the planes on. A number of the planes have weights hanging from the engine mounts.

[KenV]

Hopefully they have told Boeing they are are not going back without significant pay increases, commensurate with the experience they bring, and no need to train new workers :)This is all covered under the existing labor contract with Boeing. So no, no individual negotiations.

[tdracer]

Bringing back retired workers to help out in a pinch is actually pretty common practice at Boeing. As Ken notes, they have existing procedures to cover it. I was having a beer with an old college mate a few weeks ago who's also retired from Boeing. They brought him back for a few months to help out with the requirements definitions for the planned MMA.
DeeVee, senior machinists/mechanics at Boeing are rather well paid - most make six figures.
The biggest problem Boeing is having right now is obtaining sufficient new LEAP engines - pretty hard to deliver a new MAX aircraft without engines. Word is that they have some loaner engines they use to fly new 737 MAX aircraft to Boeing Field then remove the engines and truck them back to Renton to fly the next aircraft to Boeing Field. They are simply out of room in Renton.

[BluSdUp]

Funny old world the Aviation World, boom or bust!
Is it only the new Max we are seeing out there , as I assume the good old CFM 56 is still cranked out at a steady pace?
I ask because a certain Irish customer according rumour wanted to slow delivery of the -800 and was told : NO! some months back!
The Max are scheduled to arrive spring 2019 for them.

Does anyone know how many 737-800s are backlogged until the MAX take over?

Regards
Cpt B

[atakacs]

A bit of thread drift but anyone noticed all the 787 moving from NC to Everett today.?

[FCeng84]

Anything being moved out of South Carolina might be a matter of hurricane avoidance. Florence is due to land there (or near by) on Friday.

[Sailvi767]

A bit of thread drift but anyone noticed all the 787 moving from NC to Everett today.?

Hurricane retreat flights

[core_dump]

What's the technical purpose of hanging weights from the engine mounts?

[tdracer]

What's the technical purpose of hanging weights from the engine mounts?

Center of Gravity - basically it keeps the aircraft from falling on it's tail. On occasion, I've seen the nose wheels simply tied down instead.

[CONSO]

Hurricane retreat flights



but why to everett- already full - why not wichita- eastern washington- ?

[tdracer]

but why to everett- already full - why not wichita- eastern washington- ?

Boeing no longer has a presence in Wichita - what wasn't sold to Spirit was closed down several years ago.
In Everett they can still do work on them - Moses Lake not so much.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

Center of Gravity - basically it keeps the aircraft from falling on it's tail. On occasion, I've seen the nose wheels simply tied down instead.

Given your location I expect you would know but aren't the weights primarily to provide bending relief for the wings? Otherwise, why not just hang one big weight on the nose - as you have suggested?

[ACMS]

Would it be because the Wing Engine mounts are designed to carry the weight directly.........

[procede]

Given your location I expect you would know but aren't the weights primarily to provide bending relief for the wings? Otherwise, why not just hang one big weight on the nose - as you have suggested?

I do not think they are planning to fly with the blocks on the wings, so bending relief is not an issue. Forces in the wing on the ground can only be lower without weight on the pylon. I think tying down the nose works, until you want to tow, especially with a tow bar.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

I defer to the ultimate authority on the subject. I just checked Joe Sutter's book and he states that the concrete blocks were indeed to stop the aircraft tipping.
I suppose the same effect could have been achieved with a heavy pallet in the forward hold but the problem with ballast is that it can be forgotten! Replacing a concrete block with an engine can be achieved with the same equipment at the one site so it all makes perfect sense.

[underfire]

I defer to the ultimate authority on the subject. I just checked Joe Sutter's book and he states that the concrete blocks were indeed to stop the aircraft tipping.
I suppose the same effect could have been achieved with a heavy pallet in the forward hold but the problem with ballast is that it can be forgotten! Replacing a concrete block with an engine can be achieved with the same equipment at the one site so it all makes perfect sense.
ummmm. well, or just simply hang blocks on the engine mounts. (like they already have figured out?)

Looking at other posts, very interesting, especially how aircraft would fly with concrete blocks hanging form the engine mounts, instead of engines?

What's the technical purpose of hanging weights from the engine mounts?

Aside from all of the tipping over stuff...the wing is designed structurally to handle the load of the engine. This is achieved with the camber and other structural elements in place. Without that load, the wing construction can actually place undue stress on the structural elements. It is called Stage stressing. You stage stress the wing during construction, and pin certain elements in stages as the wing construction progresses. This prevents overstress on the elements, skin and fasteners. With the engine load in place, all elements can be securely fastened (especially the final panels. )

Lock off the elements before the load, and there is a primary stress built into the structure (that it was not designed for)

Think about a wooden truss. Assemble the wood framing, nail the plywood to the ides, then add a point load. The skin is now stressed with the load, and the framing stress with an added point load. The initial construction would be constructed, pre load and deflection with the associated load, thus inducing stress into the assembly, increasing stress loading in operations.

As an example, using wood framing that most can relate to. You have a beam on the first level, that has a column in the 1.3 span that carries 3 other floors. You set that beam, with its camber to take the load, and nail off the plywood. Then you start adding the load from the other floors under construction to that point load on the beam. The beam begins to deflect, that plywood that was fixed at the start, pre-load, with the fasteners that held the plywood down, starts to get stressed at the beam deflects with the load.
Now, if you set that beam, and hung a weight from that point, and then fastened the plywood, the skin and fasteners would not be stressed when the rest of the structure was built....you gradually reduce the weight added as the structure is built, thus mitigating the stress in the skin and connections to self weight conditions.

[friartuck]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x289/calvin_bridges_40801610e687736f653215b7a7641d6febfca777.gif

[EEngr]

especially how aircraft would fly with concrete blocks hanging form the engine mounts, instead of engines?
They might have to if GE doesn't get it's butt in gear.;)

The part about pre-stressing the structure during assembly: I'm not certain that they do the wing-body joins with the weights attached. The weights are attached after the landing gear is put on and the plane is set on the factory floor. The wing-body join jig might have some tooling to apply pre loads while tightening the bolts. But moving sections around and working in the jig would be too clumsy with a bunch of blocks to bump into.

[KenV]

They might have to if GE doesn't get it's butt in gear.;)

The part about pre-stressing the structure during assembly: I'm not certain that they do the wing-body joins with the weights attached. The weights are attached after the landing gear is put on and the plane is set on the factory floor.That is correct. The pet rocks are not used during any major join operations. They are only attached after the gear are installed and the aircraft rolls on its own tires and their purpose is only to prevent tipping the aircraft onto its tail. Attaching a weight to the nose would be highly problematic as there is no structure up there to attach the weight to. The engine pylons however are specifically designed to carry the weight of an engine and have very convenient attach points.

And as an aside, my Seattle brethren call them engine struts. Go figure.

[tdracer]

The idea that the concrete blocks are necessary to properly stress the wing structure is a popular myth (even heard from time to time within Boeing). But it is just that - a myth. The engines are normally the last thing installed before the aircraft rolls out the door. The flight loads the wing is designed for are far, far greater than the static weight of an engine hanging off the strut (and yes Ken, we've always called them struts - in fact the now Propulsion Systems Division was once known as "Power Pack and Strut".
As noted, I occasionally saw the nose gear chained to concrete blocks or to the ground when the concrete block engines were not readily available.
Once, many years ago, we were taxing to the far south end of Paine Field preparing for takeoff for a flight test. I saw a brand new 747-400 parked in a remote corner of the field that looked really strange, but in a good way. It took me a second to figure out why - the wing was complete clean. No engines, no struts, not even any pylons :p. I have to admit that hanging all that engine hardware on the wing destroys the clean lines of the wing. There were also chains tying the nose gear to a large block of concrete. Come to find out, Rolls had gotten behind producing RB211-524 engines for the 747-400. One operator decided they didn't need their new 747 right away so the pushed the engineless aircraft to a far corner of the field for six months while Rolls production was able to catch back up.

[RickNRoll]

Funny old world the Aviation World, boom or bust!
Is it only the new Max we are seeing out there , as I assume the good old CFM 56 is still cranked out at a steady pace?
I ask because a certain Irish customer according rumour wanted to slow delivery of the -800 and was told : NO! some months back!
The Max are scheduled to arrive spring 2019 for them.

Does anyone know how many 737-800s are backlogged until the MAX take over?

Regards
Cpt B

Boeing didn't have a bust. They just had reckless cost cutting.

[KenV]

Boeing didn't have a bust. They just had reckless cost cutting."Reckless cost cutting?" And this assertion is based on what?

[tdracer]

Boeing didn't have a bust. They just had reckless cost cutting.

Let's see, 737 production is delayed due to shortages of fuselages (provided by an independent vendor), and engines (also provided by an independent vendor).
Very interesting logic that concludes the delays are caused by reckless cost cutting at Boeing :rolleyes:

Now, one might question the wisdom of Boeing selling off the Wichita based 737 fuselage production facilities to Spirit - heck I'd even agree that was probably a bad move. But that move was made over a decade ago, by people no longer involved in Boeing.

[BluSdUp]

RickN, You see it inverted
We are in a boom.
It will all be clear when You level out
Blueside
Remember
Up;)

[waffler]

I saw 4 green 737 fuselages on their rail carriages near Renton last week just parked up at a siding so not only Spirits fault.

[EEngr]

I saw 4 green 737 fuselages on their rail carriages near Renton last week

Boeing doesn't handle unforeseen events well. It's likely that some of the workforce has been diverted from scheduled work to out of sequence tasks on the unfinished planes as parts trickle in. It's also possible that they have run out of parking spaces for engineless planes on the flight line and are holding up these fuselages.

When I worked there, I was involved with a system that delivered engineering functional tests to the shop floor. We built it so any test was available any time. Just in case a job slid in the schedule. The replacement for that system provided little of that functionality. "Plan for success" was the mantra and anything that didn't conform to the normal schedule was insanely difficult to access (managers' logins, special approvals, etc.). I fear that delays due to external causes will result in the Renton shop floor beginning to resemble a Chinese fire drill (apologies for the possible racist connotations of that remark).