Air NZ - Joint List

[KiwiAvi8er]

Hey guys,

Anyone heard the latest regarding this Turboprob seniority list joining to the bottom of the Jet list? Apparently it’s fallen through, which surely means turnover in the Links will go gangbusters again.

[fly real fast]

Hi Kiwi,
i have heard it’s still in the “straw man” phase. I don’t think everybody is discounting a join of lists. It’s more of a “let’s talk about this some more” situation.
Have you done the math on how long it would take you to be senior enough to join the Jets? There’s nearly 1100 jet pilots and 600 odd Link Pilots. With a current and forecast retirements averaging 20-30 a year from the jets, IF you joined the Links today you can easily expect to wait 20 odd years for a FO320 or SO787/777 job!! (Unless we expand
Once the Link guys realise they’ve got to wait that long for an entry level position you will then see “turnover at the Links going gangbusters again”.
Just my two cents worth as it doesn’t affect me, How about keep both Jet and Regional seniority list separate but interview (a loose term) from the top of the Regional seniority list down? Let’s everybody have a piece of the pie.

[ElZilcho]

If Link Pilots think a joint seniority list will benefit them in anyway, I'm sorry to say, but they're deluded... this will only benefit the small handful of Pilots who have previously failed Jet interviews and could now (potentially) get another shot through the back door.

As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.

Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.

Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.

The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.

[mark247]

How will a joint list disadvantage link pilots if there is only X amount of jobs available in the jets regardless? The only thing i see it doing is stopping less senior link pilots jumping the queue by reinterviewing and bypassing more senior pilots (which include some who have no interest in going to the jets anyway)

[ElZilcho]

Because seniority as the only metric, that early in a Pilots career, is more harmful than good. It also effectively locks out external Pilots from the joining the Jet Fleet and pushes more in favor of the Companies proposed Cadetship which is nothing more than a B Scale in disguise.

Interviewing Pilots for Jet Jobs based on experience is a much fairer system, an equalizer if you will, where Pilots who didn't fall into the "slot" from Day 1 are allowed the opportunity to Catch up. If you were lucky enough to Join the Links with 500 hours, you should expect to be there longer than someone who joins with 3000 hours.

[KiwiAvi8er]

If Link Pilots think a joint seniority list will benefit them in anyway, I'm sorry to say, but they're deluded... this will only benefit the small handful of Pilots who have previously failed Jet interviews and could now (potentially) get another shot through the back door.

As Fly Real Fast has already said, do the Math. My generation went from Link FO to Jet in 5-7 years, including those of us who dared go "external" Some have done it in 2-3, others up to 10 due to the cyclical nature of the industry. With a GOP list, new hires will be number 600 in line for a Jet Job... I've averaged 20 places per year since I joined Air NZ.

Once again, we see a handful of pilots frothing at the mouth to agree to a change that might benefit them but will crap all over the next generation.

Air NZ (or is it the pathways team?!) are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In another year or 2, the Wave will be over, we'll be back to 20-30 new hires per year to cover retirements and suddenly, 600 Link Pilots will realize there's no point in taking that quick command at an outbase. Might aswell sit in Nelson for 15 years waiting for a Command because that'll still come up before a Jet Job.

The proposed Cadetship will only make things worse. Lets give some 300 hour Pilots a 777/787 rating, 2 years on the Job followed by some T-Prop time. I'm sure they wont take those ratings and experience overseas and will be more than happy to sit on the GOP list for 15-20 years just for the privilege of an A320 FO job.

A joint list will clearly benefit regional pilots, how that can be disputed is beyond me. If you think the current recruitment model (prior to the 70:30 ratio) was in the interests of link pilots, it shows how out of touch you are with regional. Almost all interview slots were filled with externals, some ex Jetstar cadet pilots and the tipping point being a few Jetstar Dash drivers attending a panel.

The failed interview pilots as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet is approved (such as an assessment sim). One or two of the pilots I’ve seen get through the recruitment board in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes to how clearly it can be luck of the draw and that a pilot that fails a R2G isn’t necessarily the ‘unwashed’ you fear so much.

Any pilot joining the Links now is going to be a long time to Air NZ jet regardless of a GOP list, as they had been interviewing roughly based on tenure at the company anyway. It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operater whilst leaving Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interviews due to a manpower shortage. That’s in the company and majority of regional pilots interests.

[ElZilcho]

A joint list will clearly benefit regional pilots, how that can be disputed is beyond me. If you think the current recruitment model (prior to the 70:30 ratio) was in the interests of link pilots, it shows how out of touch you are with regional. Almost all interview slots were filled with externals, some ex Jetstar cadet pilots and the tipping point being a few Jetstar Dash drivers attending a panel.

In 2013/2014, Link Pilots were going to the Jet Fleet in droves. Link Captains were getting interviews after 6 months in the LHS, some were even still bonded. The Links were losing Captains faster than they could train them, all to Air NZ Jet. Air NZ even sent some Jet Pilots to fill in C&T roles, mostly at Eagle I believe. To make matters worse, even FO's from Cook/Nelson were hired into the Jets compounding the shortage of Link Captains. And it's not the first time this has happened either. In the mid 2000's, prior to the GFC, a handful of regional Pilots found themselves at Air NZ in as little as 18 months.

The current Crop of Link Pilots, especially those mid 20's ATR Captains, need to remember this. They got to where they are because of all the movement before them. They got to skip a few years of GA (or skipped it entirely) because of the movement that happened before them. Link Pilots have also been passed over for Jet Jobs recently because Mt Cook has trebled in size. How many jobs did that create? How many current Link Pilots would still in be in GA if Mt Cook hadn't expanded? The very reason most of you are stuck in the regional's is also the reason you got a job in the first place.

Regional Pilots seem to forget they aren't the only Pilots qualified to fly for Air NZ. In actual fact (no offence intended), they're the least qualified because externals require Jet Time. Without all the external recruitment, Air NZ would of been parking A/C faster than Emirates. The A320 fleet has roughly doubled in crew in recent years. 3-4 years ago we had around 800 Jet Pilots, we're now closing in on 1100. That is the reality of expansion. It creates Jobs, but it also means not all of those positions can be filled internally.

As for the GOP list, sure it might give you some certainty, but it will also add years onto your Regional Careers. It will also vastly reduce external applications. I realize Link Pilots don't care about externals, because they're "disloyal" or some BS like that, but without those externals, the Jet Fleet couldn't have expanded and likely, neither could the Links.


Any pilot joining the Links now is going to be a long time to Air NZ jet regardless of a GOP list, as they had been interviewing roughly based on tenure at the company anyway. It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operater whilst leaving Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interviews due to a manpower shortage. That’s in the company and majority of regional pilots interests.

A GOP list is not required to solve this problem.

The Company created this problem by refusing to use Tag & Release. Any idiot could see what was going to happen long before this mess... many Link Pilots even went so far as to tell the company this! This has been a problem for years and yet they only try to solve it now? At the same time they're trying to push through a Cadetship to replace Second Officers.... I wonder why?

Like I said in a previous post, a GOP list will only benefit a handful of current Link Pilots, giving them another shot at the Jets. The rest would have gotten in on their own merits eventually. The real benefit to Link Pilots is in Tag & Release, protecting a seniority number for those who legitimately get held back. A newly hired Link FO is no more deserving of a Jet Seniority number than any other Pilot, and from the feedback I'm hearing, many of my colleagues agree. It also doesn't help the cause that words spreading of a handful of Link Pilots preparing to go to court if the GOP list eventuates and argue they're entitled to Seniority numbers based on their 15-20 years of Link service.

I realize this is probably turning into a bit of a rant as I'm pushed for time in writing this. At the end of the day, from what I'm hearing, Air NZ Jet Pilots are in support of creating a better pathway for Link Pilots, specifically Tag & Release, but that support is not in favor of a GOP list.

[bowing]

Are Air NZ still looking for jet guys and how long before hiring stops or slows down?

[27/09]

ElZilcho

Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.

From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.

Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.

The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.

[Brakerider]

ElZilcho

Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.

The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.

Wasn't that long ago that those 320s were flown by someone else either...:\

[ElZilcho]

ElZilcho

Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.

From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.

Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.

The A320 fleet has increased but you seem to be forgetting the 737 fleet has disappeared during that time.


Perhaps 27/09, but one who also went through the Links.

Eagle Pilots covered some of Mt Cooks expansion, but certainly not all of it. Several of them joined the Jet Fleet and plenty of others left the group entirely.
The Jet Fleet has seen an increase of 300 total Pilots while retiring both the 767 and 737 fleets.
My Comments had nothing to do with Link Pilots being unable to fly Jets, but you cant run a shortened A320 course for Link Pilots like we did for those from Jetstar.

[RubberDogPoop]

ElZilcho

Spoken like a true Air NZ jet fleet pilot.

From what I heard a while back most of the crewing expansion at Mt Cook was provided by the guys who lost their jobs at Eagle.

Yep, those Air NZ Jets are so much more difficult to fly than say those of Jetstar and Virgin, operators that don't require pilots to have previous jet experience.

Yep, thats right, the 120 Eagle pilots supplied "most" of those THREE HUNDRED expansion slots - seems legit....

And aren't you lucky that Air NZs requirement that "outside" (read, disloyal) pilots need to have jet experience already skews interview selection in the favour of regional pilots....(but nice effort in trying to imply that an Air NZ company hiring policy is anything to do with current "jet" pilots suggesting that "their" jet job is more difficult than Jetstar or Virgin).

InZed be cautious around "MORE A321s", it means that they have converted some 320D options to 321Ds, it doesn't mean that 7 MORE A320 family aircraft than originally planned are coming - it doesn't represent an increase in numbers...yet. From 30 to 42 in five years is extremely optimistic, the 13 aircraft on order currently are replacements, not expansion - the only growth will be in lease aircraft that may or may not be kept.

KiwiAvi8er, "If the current recruitment model was in the interests of link pilots...", I ask you - why should the recruitment model be just in the interests of link pilots? What special thing has a "Link" pilot done to usurp the rights of all other New Zealand pilots, and all other NZALPA pilots? Before you shout "loyalty", remember entire generations of Eagle pilots joined with just one airline in mind - Cathay. That you are employed by the largest employer in NZ doesn't guarantee loyalty, just that the odds on being hired by them was already far better than even. Unless you specifically turned down Air Nelson for just Mt Cook, or Eagle for Air Nelson (and some might in that case!), or to make the point more clearly, didn't take that GBA job because you only wanted the mighty Aztec gig at Mountain Air, then I'd suggest you just took the first job offered - like most of us did. If Link weren't hiring at the time you joined, are we to believe you wouldn't have taken an Origin, or Air Chats gig on offer and stuck with GA for many more years at $10/hr? Such is the nebulous nature of "loyalty". You may have been loyal, it doesn't mean that those employed elsewhere are disloyal.

"The failed interview as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet..."
We have one, it's called an interview. Isn't what you're advocating here just an interview in seniority order? Is this what is being achieved right now by way of the 70:30 process? It's a "misnomer" to suggest that the only way to achieve this is through a GOP list.

"One or two of the pilots I've seen in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes...." (My bolding)
We all probably have an account similar to this, the first thing this highlights about all of us is how good we think we are at spotting things that the experts don't (Dunning-Kruger perhaps?), the second is that the proof is in the pudding. Out of 1050 "jet" pilots (FYI, nobody at AirNZ "jet" calls themselves this), there are very few bad eggs - perhaps, by and large the process works? All of this ignores the fact that the big issue everyone seems to have is with the selection of interviewees - clearly an HR function (with a little bit of "help" from the affected link management).

"It just shuts the option of them upping sticks, joining an Aussie jet operator whilst leaving (the) Links with a manpower shortage then bypassing everyone for an interview back across because Link pilots are being held back from interview due to a manpower shortage. Thats in the company and majority of regional pilots interests".
"Manpower shortage" has been coming for some time, it starts well below Link level, and was rather well hidden by the GFC - the time to act was then, now that its here, the fix is to throw money at it, not turn it into a cost-saving exercise during record profits and supply side shortage. Furthermore, whilst being selected in seniority order may suit you at the top of the command list and stem the exodus from the left seat, any very junior F/O, even ignoring any potential cadet S/Os, may well think 10-12 years to a "jet" job too long, not enough of a return on their investment, and "up-sticks" anyway. Hooray! We've just moved the shortage to the right seat - and by extension, the left seat years down the track. That is not in the company's interest.
"...bypassing" assumes it was a particular persons position in the first place and smacks of self-interest. There is nothing necessarily wrong with self-interest, just be aware of the possibility that your self-interest may different to other's self-interest. Along those lines, you will have seen the communication put out by Link project leads about a small cadre of senior Link pilots rumoured to be interested in making a play for jet commands once lists are joined - can you see why "jet" pilot self-interest may be different to theirs? And that theirs (if true) show very little regard for yours. I'd suggest that rumour alone is responsible for the lukewarm reception the GOP is now getting, perhaps you could start there?
"...being held back" is wholly in the control of HR and Link management.

Brakerider, "Wasn't that long ago that those 320s were flown by somebody else either..."
That'd be SIX aircraft right? Not 30. And they didn't have interviews either....

Overwhelmingly, I'm astounded by the implication that the "jet" guys are trying to pull the ladder up after them (out of self-interest, though no one can say what the motivation might be - we're "grand-personed" remember?), but the possibility that the intentions of previously failed interviewees, candidates that couldn't compete against overseas kiwi passport-holders CV or overlooked, extremely senior Link guys are entirely pure. This project, by and large, is being presented as a package - not all of the component pieces can be implemented in isolation - it requires "jet" guys and girls to concede some of their conditions for you, it may be worth the price, it may not (most of us agree in principle with the concepts), but at least be polite.

[Brakerider]

Is the biggest problem (for Link drivers) guys and girls trying to skip the queue by leaving link to do a year or two at an Aussie carrier before jumping into Jet? Maybe if they put their foot down about “leaving the group” it could alleviate some issues?

[ElZilcho]

Is the biggest problem (for Link drivers) guys and girls trying to skip the queue by leaving link to do a year or two at an Aussie carrier before jumping into Jet? Maybe if they put their foot down about “leaving the group” it could alleviate some issues?

Quite possibly, although the actual number of Pilots who left the links only to get re-hired by Air NZ after 1-2 years would be very low. To the best of my knowledge, most of the ex-Link pilots who were hired from the Aussie Jet operations left the links some years before all this happened. But the perception is definitely there, and I suspect it's been driven by a handful of Eagle Pilots who "got lucky" (so to speak).

Morale was pretty low at Eagle a few years ago, before they announced the closure. Air NZ had stopped hiring internally and Eagle were selling A/C and cancelling routes. About this time, I gather a handful of Pilots left Eagle for greener pastures... 6 months later Eagle closure was announced. Many of them (not all) have since been picked up by Air NZ. This obviously sent a big message to the Link group and others followed suit, but I'm not sure how many of them have found their way back. I suspect those Eagle Pilots just had incredible timing.

All Air NZ need to do to solve this, be it now or in the future, is to interview suitably qualified Link Pilots and, on successful completion of the interview, Tag & Release them back to the Links.

[mattyj]

’Tag and Release’ was the concept that is not finding favour in the latest version, that and group seniority??

[ElZilcho]

’Tag and Release’ was the concept that is not finding favour in the latest version, that and group seniority??

Tag and Release and Group seniority are very different.

Tag and Release means a Link Pilot who cannot be released from their current position is given a Reserved seniority number on the Air NZ list after a successful interview.
Group Seniority combines the Air NZ and Regional lists into one, giving everyone bidding rights for positions within the entire group. All new hires would start at the bottom of the list. i.e. an external hire from Cathay (for example) might start on the A320, but has a seniority number at the very bottom of the list including all Link Pilots.

I haven't yet heard any opposition to Tag & Release, only the GOP list.The company will add Pilots to the Air NZ list at a ratio of 70:30 Internal vs External. This means, if we hire another 100 external Pilots (30%), they need to add 230 (70%) "Tag & Release Pilots" to the list. This has the potential to snowball of course, depending how many more externals we need to hire, but it's still preferable to a GOP list as it can be done without any modifications to existing CEA's.

[Brakerider]

Group Seniority combines the Air NZ and Regional lists into one, giving everyone bidding rights for positions within the entire group. All new hires would start at the bottom of the list. i.e. an external hire from Cathay (for example) might start on the A320, but has a seniority number at the very bottom of the list including all Link Pilots.

I can see how this may be favourable for Link pilots, but Naive to think that any experienced Jet pilot would join the queue behind 400 turboprop pilots. Unless the company expect the queue for turboprop jobs to get longer?

[fly real fast]

Judging by the comments amongst the “jet” pilots, this will be a huge flop if it gets put up for ratification. NZALPA has put in a huge amount of effort and man hours into these issues but have failed to convince the general pilot body of its benefits.

[KiwiAvi8er]

In 2013/2014, Link Pilots were going to the Jet Fleet in droves. Link Captains were getting interviews after 6 months in the LHS, some were even still bonded. The Links were losing Captains faster than they could train them, all to Air NZ Jet. Air NZ even sent some Jet Pilots to fill in C&T roles, mostly at Eagle I believe. To make matters worse, even FO's from Cook/Nelson were hired into the Jets compounding the shortage of Link Captains. And it's not the first time this has happened either. In the mid 2000's, prior to the GFC, a handful of regional Pilots found themselves at Air NZ in as little as 18 months.

The current Crop of Link Pilots, especially those mid 20's ATR Captains, need to remember this. They got to where they are because of all the movement before them. They got to skip a few years of GA (or skipped it entirely) because of the movement that happened before them. Link Pilots have also been passed over for Jet Jobs recently because Mt Cook has trebled in size. How many jobs did that create? How many current Link Pilots would still in be in GA if Mt Cook hadn't expanded? The very reason most of you are stuck in the regional's is also the reason you got a job in the first place.

The perception that someone hasn’t done the hard yards in GA doesn’t quite ring true. The current crop in their 20’s might have done fewer years in GA, but they’ve still worked in GA. The exception to that being cadet pilots with 320 ratings. So, you may be fortunate enough to time getting in to the job market alongside a growth period. I’d imagine if you were to start flight training in a few years time, there’s a good chance that your training costs will be covered. Somethings got to change to fix the supply line.

Regional Pilots seem to forget they aren't the only Pilots qualified to fly for Air NZ. In actual fact (no offence intended), they're the least qualified because externals require Jet Time. Without all the external recruitment, Air NZ would of been parking A/C faster than Emirates. The A320 fleet has roughly doubled in crew in recent years. 3-4 years ago we had around 800 Jet Pilots, we're now closing in on 1100. That is the reality of expansion. It creates Jobs, but it also means not all of those positions can be filled internally.

In terms of “least qualified” to fly for Air NZ, by that logic CX SO’s must be vastly superior candidates to a turboprop skipper with all that jet time. Get a grip!! Take the job off the pedestal for a moment and look who they can put straight in to a jet in Europe.

FYI the latest external Air NZ job listing no longer had jet time as a prerequisite. ATO time will suffice. The pool of externals has been depleted obviously with the rapid growth. When you say externals are more qualified we aren’t talking about Sully, Maverick and Goose lining up to fly an Airbus with a Koru on it these days.

As for the GOP list, sure it might give you some certainty, but it will also add years onto your Regional Careers. It will also vastly reduce external applications. I realize Link Pilots don't care about externals, because they're "disloyal" or some BS like that, but without those externals, the Jet Fleet couldn't have expanded and likely, neither could the Links.

The sooner the patronising propaganda line that a GOP list is going to disadvantage Link Pilots ends the better. For a start, if every course vacancy is filled via a GOP list (which includes the RSL at the bottom) then movement on to jet will be much quicker. At the moment there is a sense of rush to get on the list, to maximize your earning potential at the latter stage of your career. The rush would no longer be there and you could enjoy a decent career in regional and move on at a time that suits.

You might have your reasons to oppose the GOP list which are valid. But the ‘Jet boys’ looking out for our best interests isn’t one of them



A GOP list is not required to solve this problem.

The Company created this problem by refusing to use Tag & Release. Any idiot could see what was going to happen long before this mess... many Link Pilots even went so far as to tell the company this! This has been a problem for years and yet they only try to solve it now? At the same time they're trying to push through a Cadetship to replace Second Officers.... I wonder why?

Like I said in a previous post, a GOP list will only benefit a handful of current Link Pilots, giving them another shot at the Jets. The rest would have gotten in on their own merits eventually. The real benefit to Link Pilots is in Tag & Release, protecting a seniority number for those who legitimately get held back. A newly hired Link FO is no more deserving of a Jet Seniority number than any other Pilot, and from the feedback I'm hearing, many of my colleagues agree. It also doesn't help the cause that words spreading of a handful of Link Pilots preparing to go to court if the GOP list eventuates and argue they're entitled to Seniority numbers based on their 15-20 years of Link service.

Everyone I’m sure is aware that the ill-advised rumour of the old boys challenging their position sparked a whole lot of paranoia. That threat can be controlled with legal jargon added to an amended CEA. If they don’t sign, they don’t get on GOP list but remain on an RSL.

I realize this is probably turning into a bit of a rant as I'm pushed for time in writing this. At the end of the day, from what I'm hearing, Air NZ Jet Pilots are in support of creating a better pathway for Link Pilots, specifically Tag & Release, but that support is not in favor of a GOP list.

[KiwiAvi8er]

KiwiAvi8er, "If the current recruitment model was in the interests of link pilots...", I ask you - why should the recruitment model be just in the interests of link pilots? What special thing has a "Link" pilot done to usurp the rights of all other New Zealand pilots, and all other NZALPA pilots? Before you shout "loyalty", remember entire generations of Eagle pilots joined with just one airline in mind - Cathay. That you are employed by the largest employer in NZ doesn't guarantee loyalty, just that the odds on being hired by them was already far better than even. Unless you specifically turned down Air Nelson for just Mt Cook, or Eagle for Air Nelson (and some might in that case!), or to make the point more clearly, didn't take that GBA job because you only wanted the mighty Aztec gig at Mountain Air, then I'd suggest you just took the first job offered - like most of us did. If Link weren't hiring at the time you joined, are we to believe you wouldn't have taken an Origin, or Air Chats gig on offer and stuck with GA for many more years at $10/hr? Such is the nebulous nature of "loyalty". You may have been loyal, it doesn't mean that those employed elsewhere are disloyal.

You’ve quoted me there responding to a ‘talking point’ I’ve seen in Pathways meetings and now in forums that Link Pilots don’t understand the GOP list, and the current recruitment process is much more advantageous to us. My reply was in that context is that it is clearly not. Making a Cook pilot attend a two day interview at their own cost when they’ve in most cases already completed the process once, in some cases twice is unnecessary.

The trend here is that Air New Zealand are centralizing subsidiary operations. There will be no Cook or Nelson shortly but some in the ‘old guard’ are adverse to change.


"The failed interview as a reason to oppose a GOP list is also a misnomer, you can have a GOP list with criteria to be met before a move to jet..."
We have one, it's called an interview. Isn't what you're advocating here just an interview in seniority order? Is this what is being achieved right now by way of the 70:30 process? It's a "misnomer" to suggest that the only way to achieve this is through a GOP list.

Incorrect. The Pathways group are advocating that an additional interview for an internally employed pilot is superfluous.

"One or two of the pilots I've seen in the last 2-3 years has opened my eyes...." (My bolding)
We all probably have an account similar to this, the first thing this highlights about all of us is how good we think we are at spotting things that the experts don't (Dunning-Kruger perhaps?), the second is that the proof is in the pudding. Out of 1050 "jet" pilots (FYI, nobody at AirNZ "jet" calls themselves this), there are very few bad eggs - perhaps, by and large the process works? All of this ignores the fact that the big issue everyone seems to have is with the selection of interviewees - clearly an HR function (with a little bit of "help" from the affected link management).

The “experts” you’re referring to, is this Talent Acquisitions or our peers who participate in pilot recruitment? I’m casting no aspersions at the recruitment team, they do the best job they possibly can but it’s not and can never be a perfect process. The nature of our job is we spend a lot more time with our colleagues than the snapshot that is taken during a recruitment board, obviously. If making observations about who gets through but more so who doesn’t, after flying with various people for years, seeing them under stress and in various moods means one has an ‘inflated sense of their own abilities and judgements’ that’s your view to suggest. I’d suggest it’s human nature to make observations about who we interact with all the time.

Overwhelmingly, I'm astounded by the implication that the "jet" guys are trying to pull the ladder up after them (out of self-interest, though no one can say what the motivation might be - we're "grand-personed" remember?), but the possibility that the intentions of previously failed interviewees, candidates that couldn't compete against overseas kiwi passport-holders CV or overlooked, extremely senior Link guys are entirely pure. This project, by and large, is being presented as a package - not all of the component pieces can be implemented in isolation - it requires "jet" guys and girls to concede some of their conditions for you, it may be worth the price, it may not (most of us agree in principle with the concepts), but at least be polite.

Agree that debate is healthy and there’s no need to play the man, so to speak.

[RubberDogPoop]

In terms of “least qualified” to fly for Air NZ, by that logic CX SO’s must be vastly superior candidates to a turboprop skipper with all that jet time. Get a grip!! Take the job off the pedestal for a moment and look who they can put straight in to a jet in Europe.
Well, no. Cathay S/Os aren’t type-rated for one thing, more importantly Cathay Captains and F/Os were applying and they represented a “vastly superior” candidate than the lot of you. Why would the company want to hire external turboprop candidates when the same product exists in-country? Nice job again conflating the company’s requirement for external candidates to have jet time with the evil, ego driven “jet” pilots putting their job on a “pedestal”.

”They” put cadets into jets in Europe because there is NO GA! Singapore put their cadets into Learjets, and neither they, nor Cathay have subsidiary operations - stop comparing apples with durians. We have the Links, that is our cadetship! If you want to replicate Europe, stump up the cash because training a cadet sure as hell shouldn’t be a cost saving. Spend the money, train them appropriately and you are quite right, anyone can do it.

FYI the latest external Air NZ job listing no longer had jet time as a prerequisite. ATO time will suffice. The pool of externals has been depleted obviously with the rapid growth. When you say externals are more qualified we aren’t talking about Sully, Maverick and Goose lining up to fly an Airbus with a Koru on it these days.

The pool of externals has been depleted because no widebody Captain is coming home to sit at the bottom of a turboprop list, as they now fear - golden handcuffs and all that. It has little to do with the naive assessment that the “obvious rapid growth” is to blame.
Why would we need Sully, Mav and Goose - it’s just another aeroplane - just exactly who is putting the job on a “pedestal?”

The sooner the patronising propaganda line that a GOP list is going to disadvantage Link Pilots ends the better. For a start, if every course vacancy is filled via a GOP list (which includes the RSL at the bottom) then movement on to jet will be much quicker. At the moment there is a sense of rush to get on the list, to maximize your earning potential at the latter stage of your career. The rush would no longer be there and you could enjoy a decent career in regional and move on at a time that suits.
More people, less jobs - explain faster to me?

You might have your reasons to oppose the GOP list which are valid. But the ‘Jet boys’ looking out for our best interests isn’t one of them
28 and already so cynical! There are no new problems, and no new solutions my friend, the wheel just turns a full circle - the old boys have seen them all before, they have nothing to gain or lose, and many of them are indeed looking out for your best interests. No one thinks pilot development is enhanced by taking a 250hr pilot and have him not manipulate the controls 4 times a month, do you? 6 sectors a day on a turboprop might work though? Are you onboard now?
No one thinks $53k is enough to live on when required to live in Auckland, do you?
No one wants another clause in their contract that says “those employed before XX get....”

Everyone I’m sure is aware that the ill-advised rumour of the old boys challenging their position sparked a whole lot of paranoia. That threat can be controlled with legal jargon added to an amended CEA. If they don’t sign, they don’t get on GOP list but remain on an RSL.
Big of you to concede it was “ill-advised”, less so considering it “paranoia”. It’s your perception problem to fix since we, and we alone vote on the GOP list - maybe you should be more...polite? Again, as I suggested above, our intentions smack of self-interest, and yet these “old boys” are pure as driven snow? As it happens, I’d suggest they may be confused about what a GOP list is, as opposed to a joined seniority system some years down the track. Nonetheless if you can’t acknowledge the selfishness of those individuals but are prepared imply that “jet” pilots are similarly affected, then you’re being...naive, inconsistent...one of those?


Hows that rush for the door at regional going? Gangbusters yet?

[ElZilcho]

The perception that someone hasn’t done the hard yards in GA doesn’t quite ring true. The current crop in their 20’s might have done fewer years in GA, but they’ve still worked in GA. The exception to that being cadet pilots with 320 ratings. So, you may be fortunate enough to time getting in to the job market alongside a growth period. I’d imagine if you were to start flight training in a few years time, there’s a good chance that your training costs will be covered. Somethings got to change to fix the supply line.

In terms of “least qualified” to fly for Air NZ, by that logic CX SO’s must be vastly superior candidates to a turboprop skipper with all that jet time. Get a grip!! Take the job off the pedestal for a moment and look who they can put straight in to a jet in Europe.

FYI the latest external Air NZ job listing no longer had jet time as a prerequisite. ATO time will suffice. The pool of externals has been depleted obviously with the rapid growth. When you say externals are more qualified we aren’t talking about Sully, Maverick and Goose lining up to fly an Airbus with a Koru on it these days.

The sooner the patronising propaganda line that a GOP list is going to disadvantage Link Pilots ends the better. For a start, if every course vacancy is filled via a GOP list (which includes the RSL at the bottom) then movement on to jet will be much quicker. At the moment there is a sense of rush to get on the list, to maximize your earning potential at the latter stage of your career. The rush would no longer be there and you could enjoy a decent career in regional and move on at a time that suits.

You might have your reasons to oppose the GOP list which are valid. But the ‘Jet boys’ looking out for our best interests isn’t one of them




Bolded: I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by twisting my words. Least qualified doesn't imply Regional Pilots cant do the job. Many of the externals we hired were already type rated on our Aircraft or similar types. We ran shortened courses for Jetstar Pilots to help alleviate the A320 crewing crises, and (unlike Euro Airlines), our A320 course was designed for existing Air NZ Pilots and not a "first Jet" course. I believe they have since modified it and/or added an extra 2 weeks for T-Prop Pilots to transition. And for what it's worth, yes, a Cathy Cadet if hired as an SO would be "more qualified" as they have experience operating in that environment.

I'm not sure why Link Pilots get so offended when someone points out that existing Jet Pilots are more qualified to fly Jets. With hundreds of former Link Pilots at Air NZ, it's obvious you're perfectly capable, but, in times of expansion, it just makes sense to bring in some more external experience. It also makes very little sense robbing Paul to pay Peter (i.e. grounding Regional A/C to Crew the Jets).

But lets talk about putting Air NZ on a pedestal for a moment... all this fuss about a job at Air NZ when almost every Airline in the South Pacific is hiring. Who's really putting on the pedestal here?

As for for the last comment about "Jet boys" not looking out for your best interests, well, I guess time will tell. If you're near to Top of the RSL, then I suppose it's hard to see the negatives and no one will convince you otherwise. Those at the bottom might not see at first, but when they realize no amount of hard work will get them any closer to an interview, they might not be so enthusiastic. Plenty of Link pilots who took quick commands due to past experience and/or less desirable bases landed Air NZ interviews out of seniority. Some might not agree with that, but I for one am not among them.

Don't be in such a rush to have the rest of your career dictated by Seniority. It's both a blessing and a curse.

[KiwiAvi8er]

A quick google proves you wrongQualifications/ExperienceJetNZCAA CPL or higherRequired NZCAA Instrument Rating (current) and

NZCAA MEIR (may be uncurrent)
Required NZCAA ATPL or all ATPL subjects passedPreferredNZCAA BTK/BGTRequired Hours (TT)1500Hours (Multi-engine Aeroplane)100Hours ATO100*Jet experienceRequiredInstrument Flight Time40Night Hours25English Language ProficiencyLevel 6

Explain how the Jetstar Dash 8 Pilots attended the interview then?? That also isn’t the expressions of interest listing which they had advertised a few months ago.....

[KiwiAvi8er]

A quick google proves you wrongQualifications/ExperienceJetNZCAA CPL or higherRequired NZCAA Instrument Rating (current) and

NZCAA MEIR (may be uncurrent)
Required NZCAA ATPL or all ATPL subjects passedPreferredNZCAA BTK/BGTRequired Hours (TT)1500Hours (Multi-engine Aeroplane)100Hours ATO100*Jet experienceRequiredInstrument Flight Time40Night Hours25English Language ProficiencyLevel 6

The expression of interest ad closed and is no longer on the Air New Zealand Page. See below :ok:

Expression of Interest - Air New Zealand Jet Closing 01 Jul 2018 23:55 Kia ora! We are now seeking expressions of interest for our Jet Fleet. This is a fantastic opportunity to join us and open yourself up to a challenging, fulfilling and rewarding career. Air New Zealand is one of the world's leading airlines delivering exceptional experiences to 13 million travellers every year. Our Pilots are highly technical, well rounded professionals who understand our business and are committed to delivering an exceptional service to our customers. We're proud to have recently received several globally recognised awards, including Airline of the Year (AirlineRatings.com). We are looking for passionate Pilots who have extensive flying experience. You will consider yourself a professional within the industry who is highly motivated and driven to achieve results both personally and for the business. Strong problem-solving skills, a clear customer focus and a can-do attitude are the attributes required to keep Air New Zealand operating at world class levels. To be considered for this opportunity, you must meet the following requirements: * NZCAA CPL* * NZCAA ATPL* or all NZ ATPL subjects passed * MEIR (current) * 1500 hours total time * 100 hours Multi-engine Aeroplane * 100 hours ATO** * 25 night hours * 40 hours Instrument Flight Time * NZCAA Class 1 Medical * * University Entrance / Equivalent * L6 English Language Proficiency or greater * Indefinite permanent residency of New Zealand or citizenship of New Zealand or Australia. An ability to travel overseas is required for the jet fleet including a valid passport with visas as required. What's in it for you? Our Pilots do more than fly planes, they take great pride in providing customers with safe and enjoyable journeys, wherever they travel with us. They are actively encouraged as a leader in all their roles. Throughout your career you'll have development opportunities in areas such as training, management and projects. To be considered for this role, please click on the "apply now" button. You will need to have your log book and licence information handy at the time of registration to complete this. If you already have an active application, please ensure that you update your profile and CV accordingly to reflect your current experience. We will be reviewing all applications on an ongoing basis and will be in touch with an outcome following the close date of 1 July 2018. *While you must meet these requirements prior to an offer of employment, we understand that you may have foreign-issued qualifications that could be converted to NZCAA licences. Should this be the case, we may consider your application while you are undertaking the conversion process with NZCAA. **Does not apply for military entry Recruiter details: Danielle Posa [email protected] Closing 01 Jul 2018 23:55 Job Details Reference #000006 Posted on 14 May 2018 Closes on 01 Jul 2018 23:55 Location(s) Auckland Expertise Pilots, Pilot Work type(s) Permanent More details (document) ApplyPrintEmail this job to a friend * Share * * * *

[Brakerider]

What happened to the Propstar drivers that interviewed was also terrible on Air NZ's part. To offer these guys interviews, tell them they were successful but unable to offer a position was a real kick in the teeth. I 100% see where the Link guys are coming from, but to say these guys are less suitable or qualified than a Cathay SO who hasn't landed a plane since the Tomahawk he flew at flying school is ridiculous.

[waterbottle]

Whittaker will be laughing away at the infighting that is going on.

Broadly speaking he has two aims to achieve. One is get rid of the SO pay scale. On current numbers that will save about 100k per pilot. How many SOs these days? 2-300? So there is 20-30 MILLION per year that he saves. The second aim is to reduce the power of the pilot group. Getting the Link guys into the jet CEA gives him a voting block of about 600 or so that have wildly different terms and conditions. A small carrot dangled to the Links gives him a third of the total pilot numbers, he doesn’t need many more to get contract chang through. We already have big problems in jet with the disparate working conditions of long haul and short haul. Generally the long haul guys I speak to have no real idea of the conditions on the Bus, and nor do they often care as their career choice means they will never fly the thing.

There are so many downsides to this whole thing, and no upside that improves on 70:30 hiring. We will never see an experienced external apply again (including RNZAF) because they see that they start off behind 600 Link pilots. We will see the loss of a well paid role by getting rid of SO to be replaced by cadets. I could go on all day, suffice to say there is one beneficiary from this plan, and it isn’t a pilot.

[RubberDogPoop]

Waterbottle - without a doubt there is a element of recovering the money lost over the S/O pay debacle, it was the ultimate own goal on the company’s part, but I do think they realise there is a genuine supply issue.
154 to answer your S/O question...

Brakerider - who has said that a Cathay S/O is more qualified than a Propstar Dash pilot?

Kiwi - “external” = overseas I would have thought, not external to the AirNZ group.

[Brakerider]

Brakerider - who has said that a Cathay S/O is more qualified than a Propstar Dash pilot?

Kiwi - “external” = overseas I would have thought, not external to the AirNZ group.

The company, and effectively NZALPA by refusing jet positions to people without Jet time (externally). Apparently P3 SO Time is worth more than Dash command.

[waterbottle]

There is currently a supply issue because the Company have scared away all externals. There are some very simple solutions to guaranteeing Link / GA supply but those won't make the Company money.

Just checked numbers and currently there are 180 SO, so thats 18 MILLION dollars per year they can save by getting rid of the SO pay scale and introducing a cadet / B scale. Thats significantly more than the cost to the Company of the SO pay issue, massively more in fact.

The Company certainly has an issue, but its entirely of their own making. Pilots have been giving them these warnings for a long time, giving the solutions as well but the Company won't listen. They are going to have to be very careful as the market is changing. More guys are going to look at the money on offer overseas and wonder why they are hanging around Air NZ. $25k USD per MONTH to fly in China is going to be very attractive.

[RubberDogPoop]

The company, and effectively NZALPA by refusing jet positions to people without Jet time (externally). Apparently P3 SO Time is worth more than Dash command.



Quite the circular/misunderstood discussion this huh? Is it your contention that all pilots external to the AirNZ group are required to have jet time Brakerider? Is it your contention that the Propstar pilots were usurped by Cathay S/Os (Cadet S/Os at that)?

I’m not really sure where NZALPA fits into your statement... Shouldn’t you be happy that the COMPANY REQUIREMENT for external (read: overseas applicants) pilots to not only have the right to live and work in NZ, but are required to leap through the additional hurdle of having jet time? Doesn’t this protect jobs in New Zealand? (ergo, isn’t this something that NZALPA should support?) Do you have any recent example of a Cathay S/O being hired ahead of those with Dash commands?
The most recent hires from Cathay are widebody commands, and F/Os. The last S/Os hired as I recall were a couple of years back, and had some of that pesky fast jet, and tanker/AWACS time. Do you think their experience should be discounted for a Dash command? I am unaware of any Cathay cadet that has been hired EVER (think more F18, less Tomahawk...) Maybe you’ve got the wrong end of the stick?

As for:
To offer these guys interviews, tell them they were successful but unable to offer a position was a real kick in the teeth
Isn’t that what always goes on? Do an interview, get a “Yes” letter (though they have never actually said that), and then wait for a course? Some guys waited 6 months, some 4 years....
Sounds to me more like the unintended consequence of having to hire 70:30 - they simply have to put link pilots in ahead of non-group pilots (to make the distinction between locals and ex-pats) to maintain the ratio right now.

[Brakerider]

I personally know of External turboprop applicants who have been told they require Jet time to join the jet fleet, despite interviewing successfully for jet positions (during that small window where it was not listed as a pre-requisite)

I also know of low time Cathay SOs that have Jet interviews coming up, for jet positions.

So take what you will of that. But my interpretation is as above.

[AerocatS2A]

RubberDog,

"External" does not mean overseas, it means external to the Air NZ group. The requirements for the jet positions are the same for anyone outside the Air NZ group.

Also, external turboprop drivers are not being told yes and then having to wait for a start date, they are being told "You interviewed well but for political reasons we are unable to hire you, how about joining one of the link airlines?"

Finally, I'm pretty sure there was a Cathay cadet on a June interview who was given a yes.

[ElZilcho]

Firstly, "External" refers to anyone not currently in the Link group, not specifically to foreign/overseas applicants. So a Kiwi Pilot, flying for Virgin (for example) is still an external.

Secondly, as RubberDog already stated, one of the "Cathay SO's" that I've met was ex RAAF. The others (who I've met anyway) might have started as SO's/Cadets but were FO's when they came to Air NZ. It never ceases to amaze me how people on these forums are so quick to rubbish the experience of others. Do you have access to all these "unworthy" Cathay Pilots CV's?

Third, the recent Pathways communication said the Company will be adding Link Pilots to the Air NZ list at the rate of 70:30, meaning for every external hired, 3 Link Pilots get on the GOP list. So does it really matter where these externals are coming from? Link Pilots are getting their Tag & Release number.

Lastly, who the F:mad: do some of you think you are? It just screams of an entitlement complex when you jump online and start rubbishing other Pilots because you deem them somehow unworthy. It's been stated countless times that Link Pilots are being skipped over, not because they can't do the job, but because they can't be released due to crewing levels. Whoever the Company hires, they still need to pass the interview, Type Rating and Line Training. So if Cathay Cadets are managing, then who are any of you to judge them? The Airbus crewing crisis is (mostly) over.. although Commands are getting lower and lower on the list, so the demand for Jet Time, specifically Airbus time, is no longer required. It also doesn't help. (as has already been pointed out), that many of the more experienced externals are pulling their applications because it's simply not worth joining behind hundreds of regional Pilots... there's better Jobs elsewhere.

[AerocatS2A]

If that was aimed at me, you misunderstand, I have no issue with who gets in, just pointing out that at least one Cathay cadet had indeed interviewed recently.

[ElZilcho]

If that was aimed at me, you misunderstand, I have no issue with who gets in, just pointing out that at least one Cathay cadet had indeed interviewed recently.

​​​​​​

Not aimed at anyone in particular, more a response to the general tone of the thread.

[Ollie Onion]

The only way forward for pilot supply and career path is to have a group list, by implementing a group list there will be some short term ‘pain’, there always is. The SO position is a perfect one for ‘Cadet’ level pilots, the entry into Air NZ would be via the SO ‘Cadet’ position, FO Turbo Props or FO A320 (if jet time). It makes sense that the FO turbo prop should be paid more than the SO Jet and both should be paid less than the FO A320, that then creates as path where pilots won’t just wait out their time in seats where their experience could be used better elsewhere because of financial reasons. External Pilots who want to work for Air NZ will still apply, when I was overseas and looking to come back I would have taken either an FO position on Turbo Prop or Jet especially if it got me a seniority number on the group list, fact was though at the time Air NZ Jet weren’t hiring and Air Nelson required recent NZ experience at the time so I went down another path. Yes it does away with the ‘well paid SO rank eventually but surely this is just the way of the world, when all the dust settles then the career SO Jet, FO turbo Prop, FO Jet, then CP Turboprop, FO Longhaul and CP anywhere should be a great career.

[RubberDogPoop]

RubberDog,

"External" does not mean overseas, it means external to the Air NZ group. The requirements for the jet positions are the same for anyone outside the Air NZ group.

Also, external turboprop drivers are not being told yes and then having to wait for a start date, they are being told "You interviewed well but for political reasons we are unable to hire you, how about joining one of the link airlines?"

Finally, I'm pretty sure there was a Cathay cadet on a June interview who was given a yes.
It ("external") never used to be Aerocat, but then nobody currently flying in NZ ever needed jet time either! How exactly would they get that, in New Zealand? Given AirNZ are the major jet operator in the country, you could hardly be reasonably expected to rock up with jet time could you? Never had to, countless Eagle, Air Nelson, Mt Cook, Origin, Air National, Rex, etc pilots will attest to that. I am trying to clear up the distinction between "external", non-group but still NZ resident pilots vs "external", to New Zealand, pilots.

As for the requirements being the same, are the interviewees from propstar, New Zealanders, or are they deemed to be Australian? (And therefore require jet time?)

I guess the "political reasons" would be something to do with 70:30, no? Hiring 3 Propstar pilots actually means hiring 10. Is that something the company wants or needs? And I'd suggest given the limbo that the pathways project is in, with no clear view on whether a new-joiner is about to "jump the queue" of long-suffering Link pilots and upset them some more, or whether the successful candidate is about to end up 600 people lower down the list than they thought, perhaps they playing it safe?

I guess that Cadet generated 1.5-ish other positions in that case? Is he a Kiwi, with GA experience, or a HKG national, genuinely at 250hrs and a Cathay P2X "type-rating"?

[mattyj]

I dunno about cadets being FOs on ATRs flying into dodgy 1400m long New Zealand runways built cynically in directions that aren’t into the prevailing and gusty winds..call me old fashioned but that requires a little GA time..

[ElZilcho]

I dunno about cadets being FOs on ATRs flying into dodgy 1400m long New Zealand runways built cynically in directions that aren’t into the prevailing and gusty winds..call me old fashioned but that requires a little GA time..

That can easily be solved via Captains only approaches and/or more restrictive met conditions for junior FO's.

They certainly wont learn how to operate in the Link environment by sitting in the middle seat of a widebody for 2+ years,

[waterbottle]

The only way forward for pilot supply and career path is to have a group list, by implementing a group list there will be some short term ‘pain’, there always is. The SO position is a perfect one for ‘Cadet’ level pilots, the entry into Air NZ would be via the SO ‘Cadet’ position, FO Turbo Props or FO A320 (if jet time). It makes sense that the FO turbo prop should be paid more than the SO Jet and both should be paid less than the FO A320, that then creates as path where pilots won’t just wait out their time in seats where their experience could be used better elsewhere because of financial reasons. External Pilots who want to work for Air NZ will still apply, when I was overseas and looking to come back I would have taken either an FO position on Turbo Prop or Jet especially if it got me a seniority number on the group list, fact was though at the time Air NZ Jet weren’t hiring and Air Nelson required recent NZ experience at the time so I went down another path. Yes it does away with the ‘well paid SO rank eventually but surely this is just the way of the world, when all the dust settles then the career SO Jet, FO turbo Prop, FO Jet, then CP Turboprop, FO Longhaul and CP anywhere should be a great career.

Dear Lord I hope this guy isn’t voting on this.

[Ollie Onion]

^^^ why? That is how a lot of big airlines around the world are or have been structured, why is Air NZ so special that Jets and Turboprops shouldn’t be mixed?

And what makes an SO seat so special that it gets paid enough money to ensure a good chunk of pilots would rather sit there than move to an A320 FO spot?

These are genuine questions, as apart from ‘losing the higher SO pay’ for new joiners and or ‘a bigger list so longer wait times’ there doesn’t seem to be a very good reason to be so scared of this change.

[Lapon]

^^^ might be more reflective of that particular A320 FO spot these days rather than the grandeur of the the SO job.
I remember a time an Air NZ 320 gig was sought after, as was a job at Cook.

[ElZilcho]

^^^ why? That is how a lot of big airlines around the world are or have been structured, why is Air NZ so special that Jets and Turboprops shouldn’t be mixed?

And what makes an SO seat so special that it gets paid enough money to ensure a good chunk of pilots would rather sit there than move to an A320 FO spot?




I'm struggling to think of any Airlines who combine Jets + Props, but I don't claim to know every Airline in the world. That being said, what benefit does a Cadet get going from a 787 SO to ATR FO? What are they going to learn on the Widebody that's relevant to the Link operation? It's purely a means to slash the SO salary and we all know it. Further more, it would move ~200 jobs to the bottom of the Seniority list meaning anyone who wants to fly Longhual would need to wait for an FO position, which would be ~1000 places up the list if we combine them.

Lastly, do the SO's really have it that good? Or has the Airbus simply become undesirable due to poor rostering? If you honestly believe that SO's are avoiding the Bus because they have it too good on the Widebody, then why are A320 Commands forecast to drop as low as 3 years as Captains flee the Fleet for Widebody FO positions?

[AerocatS2A]

It ("external") never used to be Aerocat, but then nobody currently flying in NZ ever needed jet time either! How exactly would they get that, in New Zealand? Given AirNZ are the major jet operator in the country, you could hardly be reasonably expected to rock up with jet time could you? Never had to, countless Eagle, Air Nelson, Mt Cook, Origin, Air National, Rex, etc pilots will attest to that. I am trying to clear up the distinction between "external", non-group but still NZ resident pilots vs "external", to New Zealand, pilots.

In the past perhaps. Now there is Jet Connect, Virgin Blue, and maybe Jetstar (do they have an Auckland A320 base?) As far as I know there is absolutely no distinction between NZ resident pilots working for non-group airlines and pilots external to New Zealand itself. They are all considered externals and all require jet time to be hired direct to Air New Zealand.

I'm struggling to think of any Airlines who combine Jets + Props, but I don't claim to know every Airline in the world. That being said, what benefit does a Cadet get going from a 787 SO to ATR FO? What are they going to learn on the Widebody that's relevant to the Link operation? It's purely a means to slash the SO salary and we all know it. Further more, it would move ~200 jobs to the bottom of the Seniority list meaning anyone who wants to fly Longhual would need to wait for an FO position, which would be ~1000 places up the list if we combine them.
Qantas have an almost identical situation you guys. SOs living the high life and not wanting to move to short haul, two wholly owned turbo-prop subsidiaries with pilots who want to be able to move straight to the jets with a minimum of fuss, and a thread on PPRuNe discussing the various merits of hiring externally to the group vs promoting from within the group (Qantas Recruitment.)

[AerocatS2A]

^^^ why? That is how a lot of big airlines around the world are or have been structured, why is Air NZ so special that Jets and Turboprops shouldn’t be mixed?

And what makes an SO seat so special that it gets paid enough money to ensure a good chunk of pilots would rather sit there than move to an A320 FO spot?

These are genuine questions, as apart from ‘losing the higher SO pay’ for new joiners and or ‘a bigger list so longer wait times’ there doesn’t seem to be a very good reason to be so scared of this change.

Have a read of Keg's post in the latter pages of the Qantas Recruitment thread. He spells out why only promoting internally is not necessarily a good thing.

[ElZilcho]

Qantas have an almost identical situation you guys. SOs living the high life and not wanting to move to short haul, two wholly owned turbo-prop subsidiaries with pilots who want to be able to move straight to the jets with a minimum of fuss, and a thread on PPRuNe discussing the various merits of hiring externally to the group vs promoting from within the group (Qantas Recruitment.)

The high life? That's a bit of a stretch.

As someone said, the A320 used to be a highly sought after position. When the 737 was the Domestic workhorse, it had rostering rules and CEA clauses (lower incentive threshold) to account for the higher workload of multi-sector days... remember, NZ isn't Aus. Our longest Domestic sector is under 2hrs and the main trunk, AKL-WLG takes about 30 minutes so you can do very high sectors on a Domestic roster. Even then however, 737 FO & Capt positions were a fair way down the list due to lifestyle considerations.

Anyway, when the 737 was retired all of the rostering rules went with it and we've been fighting with the company ever since. Some very minor changes were made through a working group which had virtually no impact. This is the biggest cause of grievance on the A320 and many SO's are simply staying put. Plenty would move across (the non commuters anyway) if the Company would just resolve the lifestyle concerns. As it stands however, Pilots are utilizing their right to choose and simply avoiding the fleet.

This all leads into why the Company is pushing the Cadetship. Not only will they save a fortune slashing the SO pay, but it will also mean the first Widebody Jobs will sit ~400-500 positions above the most Junior A320 FO. Pilots will have no choice but to sit on the A320 for 15+ years (500 seats / 30 retirement a year) as they cant bid anywhere else. Overnight, the company will solve their crewing issues on the A320 without having address any of the lifestyle concerns.

[RubberDogPoop]

^^^ why? That is how a lot of big airlines around the world are or have been structured, why is Air NZ so special that Jets and Turboprops shouldn’t be mixed?

And what makes an SO seat so special that it gets paid enough money to ensure a good chunk of pilots would rather sit there than move to an A320 FO spot?

These are genuine questions, as apart from ‘losing the higher SO pay’ for new joiners and or ‘a bigger list so longer wait times’ there doesn’t seem to be a very good reason to be so scared of this change.

Ten thousand hours plus is the answer to the SO seat question. That's why it gets paid so much money. QANTAS aside, there is no other airline like it. History will tell you that prior to the bust up in 1990-91, Air NZ operated 1 Capt. and 2 F/Os. Guess what the most junior F/O got to do? Sit in the back and rarely do a take-off and landing - sound familiar? S/O is a B-scale F/O, the person AirNZ hired for those S/O spots were the same guys they had been hiring the week before as F/Os. Thats why it's so special. It was a money saving back then, now they want a C-scale and to justify the massive pay cut, they want to hire genuine cadets. On that basis, you're quite right, they should never be paid the same as the current multi-decade Regional captain. None of that should distract you from the fact that they don't need cadets in widebodies - the shortage isn't there, as you quite rightly suggest - its in the turboprops. Occam's razor would suggest fixing that particular shortage at source doesn't it?

As ElZilch has said, this proposal fixes the massive own goal over the S/O pay disparity (not just the recovery of monies paid, but also the closure of the gap between S/O and A320 F/O), and the A320 retention problem in one foul swoop (freudian slip???).....

Ollie,
why is Air NZ so special that Jets and Turboprops shouldn’t be mixed?
I'll throw this one back at you without prejudice - Why are Links pilots so special they're the only ones who don't need jet time to get a job?

[fly real fast]

^^^ why? That is how a lot of big airlines around the world are or have been structured, why is Air NZ so special that Jets and Turboprops shouldn’t be mixed?

And what makes an SO seat so special that it gets paid enough money to ensure a good chunk of pilots would rather sit there than move to an A320 FO spot?

These are genuine questions, as apart from ‘losing the higher SO pay’ for new joiners and or ‘a bigger list so longer wait times’ there doesn’t seem to be a very good reason to be so scared of this change.



SOs went through a couple of years trying to gain pay parity when a dodgey management deal was done with the Feds to gain a 13% increase in SO pay! The reason why F320 jobs are less desirable is not a pay issue but rather lifestyle/work load issues.

i also like having SOs on the flight deck who have experienced more than a VFR flight from Ardmore to Hamilton and back. We have some of the most experienced group of guys and gals in the middle seat on the planet! Are they utilising their experience? Probably not. But they have a CHOICE. S/O on long haul or F320. Links Pilots won’t have that choice if we vote for this change.

There are no other airlines that I know of which train cadets to then sit as a SO for two years in a wide body then move to an ATR/dash. The problem is not in the jet fleet. It’s a Link problem! Train for the Links. Don’t reduce the conditions of our hard fought for terms and conditions.

SO cadets are off the table now anyways so it doesn’t really matter.

[AerocatS2A]

The high life? That's a bit of a stretch.
An exaggeration sure, but there's obviously a reason that both Qantas and Air NZ SOs are declining to bid to the short haul fleets and lifestyle is surely a big part of it. Anyway, my point was just that there are other airlines facing the same issue as Air NZ.

As someone said, the A320 used to be a highly sought after position. When the 737 was the Domestic workhorse, it had rostering rules and CEA clauses (lower incentive threshold) to account for the higher workload of multi-sector days... remember, NZ isn't Aus. Our longest Domestic sector is under 2hrs and the main trunk, AKL-WLG takes about 30 minutes so you can do very high sectors on a Domestic roster. Even then however, 737 FO & Capt positions were a fair way down the list due to lifestyle considerations.

Anyway, when the 737 was retired all of the rostering rules went with it and we've been fighting with the company ever since. Some very minor changes were made through a working group which had virtually no impact. This is the biggest cause of grievance on the A320 and many SO's are simply staying put. Plenty would move across (the non commuters anyway) if the Company would just resolve the lifestyle concerns. As it stands however, Pilots are utilizing their right to choose and simply avoiding the fleet.

2 hours is about an hour too long in my book, but everyone's different. I understand where you are at. You have seen the conditions change within the company and are comparing what you have to what you had. For someone looking to move to the company though, they can only compare what they have now to what you have now. There are some clauses in your agreement that are just awesome compared to what's in my Australian agreement.

[AerocatS2A]

I'll throw this one back at you without prejudice - Why are Links pilots so special they're the only ones who don't need jet time to get a job?

Probably because they normally get hired to SO positions.

[Brakerider]

Probably because they normally get hired to SO positions.

So why can’t Air NZ hire SOs externally who don’t have Jet time (within the 70:30 ratio) without Link pilots jumping up and down?

[AerocatS2A]

So why can’t Air NZ hire SOs externally who don’t have Jet time (within the 70:30 ratio) without Link pilots jumping up and down?
I don't know bro! Politics. Maybe they could go 70:30, no jet time, to SO positions and hire A320 FOs direct with jet time outside of the 70:30. Maybe that would be too complicated. Whatever they did, somebody would be unhappy.

[BO0M]

Qantas and VA both train cadets to long haul SO positions so it's not so uncommon.

This entire thread is a great example of why pilots are our own worst enemies! Fighting over who has the hardest job with some unjustified/ uneducated arguments and opinions that will only result in a win to the company.

TP and Jets are two very different beasts, I've seen experienced TP guys fail going onto the jet and the same number of jet guys fail when coming back to TP's. Reality is they both require different skill sets and any half reasonable training department (of which Air NZ has very good ones) can train pilots to the required standard regardless of previous experience.

SOs are coming wether the pilot group likes it or not!

[Ollie Onion]

Look I can see a couple of different themes here. One is a reluctance for this deal due to the perchieved reductions in Terms and Conditions with regard to the SO position. I totally understand that and would defend everyone’s right to protect those as they are hard won. Two, I don’t get trying to dress up the objections By saying things like ‘ex Cadets couldn’t fly an ATR into a small NZ strip, or without Jet experience you shouldn’t be sitting in a Jet’. BA, Cathay Pacific and Emirates all take direct entry FO’s who have no Jet experience, Qantas and Cathay both put SO’s onto large jets who only have 200 hours with very little multi time, using experience as a reason not to join the list is just not valid, maybe with the exception of Emirates the rest could pick and choose from a pool of relatively experienced candidates but the airlines want to get some cheaper people in at the bottom and keep them for longer, why does that surprise us?

One of my Air NZ mates said to me the other day ‘I think this is a bad idea as it would allow an ATR driver to move straight into an FO spot on the A320 and that is just dangerous!’ Why.......

I am actually genuinely interested in this attitude as I have seen a lot of different pilots with different levels of experience successfully get trained into quite different roles all over the world, the most important thing is a good training path and I am intrigued if people actually believe in the experience argument. If I was actually voting on this deal then I would vote no as terms and conditions once given away will never be gained back.

[Big Balls]

One of my Air NZ mates said to me the other day ‘I think this is a bad idea as it would allow an ATR driver to move straight into an FO spot on the A320 and that is just dangerous!’ Why.......

I don’t know what your mate was on about but there are plenty of ex ATR and Q300 pilots who have gone straight onto the A320. It is not dangerous, it’s a perfectly logical step.

[27/09]

So why can’t Air NZ hire SOs externally who don’t have Jet time (within the 70:30 ratio) without Link pilots jumping up and down?
The jet time requirement has nothing to do with the Link pilots jumping up and down. I think if some at the jet operation had their way everyone would have jet time. I think the relaxation of the jet requirement was more to provide a pathway from the Links to mainline.

[ElZilcho]

Look I can see a couple of different themes here. One is a reluctance for this deal due to the perchieved reductions in Terms and Conditions with regard to the SO position. I totally understand that and would defend everyone’s right to protect those as they are hard won. Two, I don’t get trying to dress up the objections By saying things like ‘ex Cadets couldn’t fly an ATR into a small NZ strip, or without Jet experience you shouldn’t be sitting in a Jet’. BA, Cathay Pacific and Emirates all take direct entry FO’s who have no Jet experience, Qantas and Cathay both put SO’s onto large jets who only have 200 hours with very little multi time, using experience as a reason not to join the list is just not valid, maybe with the exception of Emirates the rest could pick and choose from a pool of relatively experienced candidates but the airlines want to get some cheaper people in at the bottom and keep them for longer, why does that surprise us?

One of my Air NZ mates said to me the other day ‘I think this is a bad idea as it would allow an ATR driver to move straight into an FO spot on the A320 and that is just dangerous!’ Why.......

I am actually genuinely interested in this attitude as I have seen a lot of different pilots with different levels of experience successfully get trained into quite different roles all over the world, the most important thing is a good training path and I am intrigued if people actually believe in the experience argument. If I was actually voting on this deal then I would vote no as terms and conditions once given away will never be gained back.


Then your mate is misguided and in all probability alone in that opinion. Whilst not many, Link Pilots have still been hired in recent years, plenty onto the A320 and the Tag & Release Pilots all hold notional F20 positions. I doubt any but a minority would be so arrogant as to think a Link Pilot could not be trained onto the A320.

What I have heard, however, are questions about a Link Captain going directly to an A320 Command when seniority permits i.e. not bidding F20 and simply waiting until C20. However, I'm sure the company will have systems in place for that much the same way they do for SO's taking A320 Commands.

In regards to Cadets Ollie, the biggest gripe is not so much the Company putting them into the Widebodies, but putting them in Widebodies under the guise of "Gaining experience before joining the Link Carriers". They've all but come out and said it! "Feedback from Link Training Captains is that low hour Pilots don't integrate well into Multi-Crew operations, so we'll make them SO's for 2 years before starting in the Links.... on severely reduced pay of course"

Many of the objections need to stop being viewed in isolation. The Company (and ALPA unfortunately) tried to sell us an entire package.

So why can’t Air NZ hire SOs externally who don’t have Jet time (within the 70:30 ratio) without Link pilots jumping up and down?

Soon we might have too as externals are pulling their applications due to the potential combined list.

But until now, it's been mostly Supply & Demand driven. Air NZ has been bombarded by CV's with 5k-10k+ hours and thousands of hours Jet so they had their pick of bunch... especially since, as I mentioned earlier, we ran shortened courses for A320 rated Pilots.

[RubberDogPoop]

SOs are coming wether the pilot group likes it or not!

No kidding! They arrived almost 30 years ago....

[BO0M]

No kidding! They arrived almost 30 years ago....

Ok ok, fair play! I missed out the Cadet part.

[Offcut]

Boom, no mate. They aren’t. It requires a vote by the jet pilot group and I’d say the chances of that vote succeeding is, well, remote to say the least. That ship has sailed. The only question that remains is whether they push for a GOP, which also requires a vote by jet pilots, and also is unlikely to succeed. If I was a link pilot I’d be focusing my energy on firming up the recruitment process and improving conditions where you are.

[fly real fast]

I agree with Offcut. There is not a chance that anything the career pathways were proposing will even get to ratification. If it did get that far it’ll be voted down in huge numbers.

I would be focussing on the process of how HR choose Links Pilots for interviews and trying to make it more transparent and fair to all.

[BO0M]

Boom, no mate. They aren’t. It requires a vote by the jet pilot group and I’d say the chances of that vote succeeding is, well, remote to say the least. That ship has sailed. The only question that remains is whether they push for a GOP, which also requires a vote by jet pilots, and also is unlikely to succeed. If I was a link pilot I’d be focusing my energy on firming up the recruitment process and improving conditions where you are.

Sorry I have to disagree..........The company can put Cadets in the SO seat /FO seat if they see fit and pay them the current SO/FO pay rate (unless I have missed something in the contracts?)

On the other stuff I completely agree. Link pilots need to secure better pay and conditions but unfortunately this little side project (pathways) is been dangled like a carrot to confuse and cause in fighting amongst the masses.

As far as recruiting goes, well thats anybodies guess.

[ElZilcho]

Sorry I have to disagree..........The company can put Cadets in the SO seat /FO seat if they see fit and pay them the current SO/FO pay rate (unless I have missed something in the contracts?)

On the other stuff I completely agree. Link pilots need to secure better pay and conditions but unfortunately this little side project (pathways) is been dangled like a carrot to confuse and cause in fighting amongst the masses.

As far as recruiting goes, well thats anybodies guess.

Correct. The Company can go ahead with their SO Cadetship whenever they like. What they can't do is pay them anything less than the current SO rates or circumvent seniority.

[Offcut]

Boom, agreed. But they won’t, will they. There is still a line down the block for SO jobs. Why would they hire a cadet, spend vastly more on training them, have much higher failure rates, etc, and then pay the same as they could employ an experienced pilot for? People still want to work for the airline. If that changed and they were unable to hire pilots then cadets might make sense. But surely not into the SO role that most link pilots want? What exactly is your desired outcome?

[captsf]

Does anyone know the result of the recent GOP list survey? The silence is deafening...

[RubberDogPoop]

Not closed yet, 3 days to go.

[ka_pai]

“How do we create and implement a superior career pathway that provides attractive long-term career and lifestyle opportunities for all pilots within the Air NZ Group” - this is the opening line in the Pathways mission statement. Hiring external turboprop drivers with the same or less experience that currently exists within the Air NZ group does not provide a superior career pathway that’s attractive for these Link pilots. Hence a few guys for Prop* not getting the positions they were told they had.

One aspect of the GOP is that it initially benefits the top hundred or so Link guys that want that longhaul jet position so they can live in the regions and commute, but won’t take the f20 gig to get on the list in the first place. Yes there is a chance they could get s/o, but they don’t like the idea that with the EOI they have RSL seniority but have pilots junior to them taking a jet seniority number ahead of them. Of course if they are on tag and release then they can turn down the first jet position offered and wait for the next one ( within 3 years or by mutual agreement).
The GOP is dead and buried I’d say. The masses have spoken. As John Campbell would say “now ponder this” (and this could be reaching but....) if the GOP exisited all it requires is a majority vote in years to come to amend the contract to change seniority to ‘group’ DOJ. Why would you support that possibility if you are on jet list now and know there are a lot of link guys with group seniority to you. Say goodbye (potentially) to that wide body command you were hoping to get. This is great for Link pilots so of course they would support the GOP. But they don’t get to vote on it so it’s a non issue.
And as mentioned earlier, a GOP serves the companies interests to future crewing issues on the airbus if it remains that way. I could go on...

Reality is, there is no problem filling jet positions in terms of willing and able Link applicants (though I believe it’s essential to continue to have external experience from other operators/airforce) . It’s the Links that have the issue and that is pilots not taking commands (believing they will go jet without one which won’t happen anymore) or company expositions having a set hour minimum on type to take the LHS. We don’t need cadet s/o’s and hopefully won’t have them in the way Whittaker wants them i.e lowest paid flying job in Air NZ with lowest experience. The term cadet is even a stretch using it as that implies the company will pay for their training and that’s something they are not willing to do.

I must say, it’s nice to read a thread with different opinions and it not to have turned into a bitter slagging fest which other threads of other aviation groups have. Just saying. :ok:

Is the briefing complete? Questions, suggestions. Fuel for Canberra Capt M? :E

[mattyj]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/245x180/ffc43983_bea7_47be_9aad_9eae354cae05_95f2fb38556df898d251177 ac1e7c788cc135532.gif

[aluminium hail]

In time there would be no need to vote in a group wide DOJ list because as those currently on the air nz list leave/retire then everyone will simply have a group seniority - a pilot joins on whatever fleet they are given, jet or prop and moves up.

Also, I don't think there are many, if any, prop FO's turning down commands waiting for jet. In addition although company experience reqs can limit FO's getting commands the problem is bigger than that. The links may hire 250hr FO's and they will do 400-500 hrs a year, an ATPL reqs 1500 hrs minimum, so that fo needs 3 years just to the have experience for an ATPL yet on current planning the links need to be issuing commands after 18-24 months. Hiring low time pilots into the links just kicks the can down the road 18 months. That's how you come up with an idea to build time in the middle of a wide flight deck - as pointless as that may actually be!

As much as the gop list would work for me I think it is having a still birth. But I still think something needs to be changed, how many jet jobs can be created or kept if the regional feeders are broken?

[ka_pai]

Mt Cook f/o’s in Chch are not taking commands in Wgtn (12 commands was the number a month ago) when they have the seniority to. Air Nelson can’t upgrade guys because of the 1000 hr company requirement. These are facts. And Kel Duff and co are trying to address them.
The jet pilots will vote on a GOP and the general consensus is no. It’s not still in birth - it’s a miscarriage.
Aluminium hail I don’t think you understand the GOP if you think in time once the jet list is renewed (which will take 40 years in its entirety) that people will be given a group number. There are 3 separate companies we are talking about here. To join on whatever fleet and have a number means it would be one company with one contract like the jet fleet is now with different fleet pay scales. There’s a lot of change that needs to be implemented first.
The Links aren’t just going to hire low hour pilots that need 3 plus years to get their hours up. There would be a mix of experience from GA guys, instructors, overseas GA etc. You are naive to believe every pilot hired would be a cadet. (If we had them). This isn’t how the Pathways Project is designed from the hiring point of view.
A low hour guy needs stick and rudder time and sectors under their belt to get the experience up. Not watching 3 takeoffs and landings a month from the back and a couple of extra sims a year. They may learn the longhaul operation but that doesn’t help them fly the dash or atr from a skills point of view. The s/o role is fine for the guys sitting there now as the experience levels of s/o’s is quite humbling and they are effective members of the crew. You ask guys how many time the s/o has saved some paperwork for the skipper. Reality is a cadet wouldn’t have the same level of experience to.

I’ll say it again, the jet fleet has no problem, it’s the Links. And now it’s even better for Link guys as they know they will get a jet job, in seniority of the EOI now so there is a clear progression. A GOP stops externals and without them in times of expansion we are parking up planes left right and centre if we are only taking guys of the links. Externals don’t have to be hired when it’s slow, the Link guys can trickle through. 70:30 is a limit not a target.

[BO0M]

What exactly is your desired outcome?

Sorry Offcut I'm not here often haha. To be honest I don't have a desired outcome, as I alluded to earlier it doesn't effect me. It would be nice to see some common sense displayed by all parties. The company need to realise anything that promotes a reduction in T&Cs isn't going to get anywhere with either pilot group. Moreover the pilot groups need to get on the same page and come up with something that suits all instead of infighting and insulting one another.

Can I just throw out something that may throw a cat amongst the pigeons........If Air NZ management really want this combined GOP list, which they do by all accounts. Whats stopping them from dissolving Mt Cook and Air Nelson legal entities and changing everyones employer to Air NZ? If that happens the RSL would automatically be placed on the bottom of the GOP list. No vote needed.

[ElZilcho]

Sorry Offcut I'm not here often haha. To be honest I don't have a desired outcome, as I alluded to earlier it doesn't effect me. It would be nice to see some common sense displayed by all parties. The company need to realise anything that promotes a reduction in T&Cs isn't going to get anywhere with either pilot group. (1)Moreover the pilot groups need to get on the same page and come up with something that suits all instead of infighting and insulting one another.

(2)Can I just throw out something that may throw a cat amongst the pigeons........If Air NZ management really want this combined GOP list, which they do by all accounts. Whats stopping them from dissolving Mt Cook and Air Nelson legal entities and changing everyones employer to Air NZ? If that happens the RSL would automatically be placed on the bottom of the GOP list. No vote needed.

1.) Obviously, I do not speak for the Pilot group as a whole, but certainly the message I'm hearing out on the line is in support of a Tag and Release/Reserved seniority system. Link Pilots, after reaching a certain level of experience (i.e. a Command and X hours) become eligible for an Air NZ position or a reserved number if they cannot be released... Air NZ have currently adopted this.

2.) Honestly? Probably nothing. The Unions would negotiate the payscales for Link Aircraft and they would subsequently be added to the Air NZ CEA (upon ratification). All Link Pilots would then be employed by Air NZ, under our CEA... a massive win for them. Would the company ever do that? Hard to say, but I doubt it. As much as they're flogging the A320 crews they can still flog Link Pilots more!

[Slezy9]

Still waiting on the results of the survey... I could be wrong but I'm guessing they are trying to justify the less than positive result for the GOP list!

[ElZilcho]

Still waiting on the results of the survey... I could be wrong but I'm guessing they are trying to justify the less than positive result for the GOP list!

Wouldn't surprise me.

I found it quite disappointing that the wagging finger was pointed at us saying "A GOP list has been in your contract since 2002, you just didn't read/understand it!" when that GOP list clearly relates to Subsidiary JET operations (i.e. Freedom). It has nothing to do with the Link Group.

[Kittykat2704]

Any advancements on this proposed list?

[ElZilcho]

Any advancements on this proposed list?


Some Comms came out today. GOP list, while not Dead, is certainly on Hold in favor of the *70:30 recruitment model. Cadetship is now focusing on T-Prop F/O point of entry opposed to SO.

Recruitment looks to be ~100 Pilots in 2019.

*70:30 recruitment means 70% internal, 30% external. The Company intends 180 Link Pilots to be added to the list in FY19 (i.e until end of June). 18 are already there so 162 left. Of that 162, they've indicated 32 can be "Released" from the links, meaning 130 will be given reserved seniority numbers. This will bring the ratio of Link Pilots Vs Externals (already hired) more into line with the 70:30.

[Kittykat2704]

Some Comms came out today. GOP list, while not Dead, is certainly on Hold in favor of the *70:30 recruitment model. Cadetship is now focusing on T-Prop F/O point of entry opposed to SO.

Recruitment looks to be ~100 Pilots in 2019.

*70:30 recruitment means 70% internal, 30% external. The Company intends 180 Link Pilots to be added to the list in FY19 (i.e until end of June). 18 are already there so 162 left. Of that 162, they've indicated 32 can be "Released" from the links, meaning 130 will be given reserved seniority numbers. This will bring the ratio of Link Pilots Vs Externals (already hired) more into line with the 70:30.

Interesting. That's a lot of pilots on the list internally, which I guess is a good moral booster at the links.

I see they've opened up shop for externals again today on the careers website. I've heard of a fairly large number of guys awaiting start dates, including guys who have left the links who have become anxious about a 24 month stand down being proposed. With the 70/30 ratio and 100 pilots required this year surely there is already going to be a surplus of guys currently awaiting starts and there will be no need for further externals if they're to honour what they say?

[ElZilcho]

The Stand down (I believe) comes into effect immediately. If you've left the links within the last 24 months, you either need to re-join the Links (yea right) or wait out the stand down period.

As for numbers, a lot will depend on how many Link Pilots (beyond the 32 mentioned) get starts. The more jobs that go to externals, the more the "Tag and Release" Pilots back up. Ideally, the Company wants to give courses to Tagged Link Pilots within 3 years of going on the list, but if the numbers get too large that wont (cant) happen. Assuming there will be 130 Tagged Link Pilots, and the Links can only release 50 per year, then by June the list will already be more than 2 years long.


So it's a balancing act based on Jet Fleet demand. Once we have a queue of Link Pilots on reserved numbers, can they be released to keep up with Jet demand? If yes, no externals hired. If no, externals will still be required, and for each hired another 3 Link Pilots get numbers.

[Kittykat2704]

Surely that stand down won't be applied to guys who have been vetted and awaiting starts early 2019?

Cheers for the insight. Time to update the application😃

[ElZilcho]

Surely that stand down won't be applied to guys who have been vetted and awaiting starts early 2019?

Cheers for the insight. Time to update the application😃

I honestly don't know. While rare, it isn't unheard of for Pilots to not get employed after getting a "yes". The Employment offer doesn't come until the start date does so I guess it depends what promises were made behind closed doors and how many others are on the books.

[ka_pai]

The 2 year stand down won’t affect pilots who left the group and are now waiting for a start.

[go123]

If they haven’t signed a contract (which is the case if you’ve only been given a yes) then they absolutely could delay your start and make you reinterview. It’s happened many times with people sitting on Air NZ ‘yes letters’ in the past

[Flyer4040]

Hi guys
i have an interview with air nz for jet fleet next year and preparing myself from now,I have 2300+ hrs total and 1200 hrs on A320.
any help will be appreciated.

thanks