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Rated De
7th Sep 2018, 00:13
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/640x381/89c02f08cfbf7e286c0401ed3cfed2ef_full_8f24e3444e21de77cc62ae 6f7fc3d4ae66cf9322.png
If it is true a long serving employee has been disciplined penning a critique of policy. If it is also true that the childish response suggests staff have clouded perspective, then this ought clear it up.

Indeed Mr Joyce has 'transformed' airline CEO remuneration, amassing nearly AUD $80 million in the same time that a peer CEO at Singapore Airlines, Mr Goh Choon Phong has grossed nearly AUD $28 million.
We note Mr Clifford's axiomatic explanation, that Mr Joyce's remuneration is less than FY17, but it still is nearly three times higher than Mr Goh Choon Phong. True to form as ever, but as usual misses the point.

Surely then Mr Joyce for this level of remuneration has indeed 'transformed' the company?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/471x406/14fb338c06219f21b8fc67e3d384181f_full_3ec1171649fbd7d4f22292 d3610d837806c62d98.png

Mr Goh Choon Phong earned over AUD $4 billion for their shareholders at SIA, in contrast Qantas statutory profit is less than $800 million
It would appear that perspective is indeed subject to being clouded,

A comparison of audited facts suggest the self anointed 'greatest airline management' might be a little deluded.

ALAEA Fed Sec
7th Sep 2018, 01:28
http://i66.tinypic.com/34pavr6.png

CurtainTwitcher
7th Sep 2018, 02:42
ALAEA Fed Sec the data on the MiG is inaccurate. (https://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechtopguncharliebriefing.html)

You need to include his earlier earnings as Jetstar CEO, sourced from 2005 ~ 2008 Qantas Annual Report
2008 2,395,414
2007 1,659,238
2006 1,423,530
2005 1,418,599
---------------------
Total $6,896,791

T-Vasis
7th Sep 2018, 05:02
I don't think it is right to compare profit after tax as a measure of company performance on business in different jurisdictions, with different laws, and who are operating in different business cycles, and using non-statutory measures.

And in terms on Alan's renumeration; wasn't the spike a result of his LTIP vesting, which is part of his renumeration package, and linked to various metrics, which have been realised?

V-Jet
7th Sep 2018, 05:58
I don't think it is right to compare profit after tax as a measure of company performance on business in different jurisdictions, with different laws, and who are operating in different business cycles, and using non-statutory measures.

And in terms on Alan's renumeration; wasn't the spike a result of his LTIP vesting, which is part of his renumeration package, and linked to various metrics, which have been realised?

It's a pleasure to have you take part in a professional aviation forum Mr Clifford!

Going Boeing
7th Sep 2018, 07:39
Wasn’t it very fortunate for Joyce that the “write down” of Company assets happened to coincide with the start of the executives Long Term Incentive Plan. It nicely meant that the shares that they were to receive were locked in at the lowest possible price (circa 83 cents) and over the next four years, the company was magically profitable with resultant significant gains in the share price - aided, of course, by using some of the profits to buy back shares (thus keeping the share dividends fairly lean).

It can only be considered luck that the share price was extremely low at the start of the LTIP yet was in the stratosphere when it matured - I don’t know why the institutional shareholders aren’t looking into this more actively considering they were denied share value and dividends while when the share price was being driven down.

Rated De
7th Sep 2018, 09:37
Wasn’t it very fortunate for Joyce that the “write down” of Company assets happened to coincide with the start of the executives Long Term Incentive Plan. It nicely meant that the shares that they were to receive were locked in at the lowest possible price (circa 83 cents) and over the next four years, the company was magically profitable with resultant significant gains in the share price - aided, of course, by using some of the profits to buy back shares (thus keeping the share dividends fairly lean).

It can only be considered luck that the share price was extremely low at the start of the LTIP yet was in the stratosphere when it matured - I don’t know why the institutional shareholders aren’t looking into this more actively considering they were denied share value and dividends while when the share price was being driven down.


Extreme luck. Considering that an asset impairment is management prerogative, it was extremely lucky that the metrics the remuneration committee 'chose' for Mr Joyce were set at an equally low level to achieve the amazing 'transformation'

Street garbage
7th Sep 2018, 10:20
I see the thread "when is a bonus not a bonus" with Mr Joyce's response, has been removed...

dragon man
7th Sep 2018, 10:25
I see the thread "when is a bonus not a bonus" with Mr Joyce's response, has been removed...

I wonder if it was the moderators under legal threat or the Captain who started it under duress from the company?

ALAEA Fed Sec
7th Sep 2018, 11:56
ALAEA Fed Sec the data on the MiG is inaccurate. (https://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechtopguncharliebriefing.html)

You need to include his earlier earnings as Jetstar CEO, sourced from 2005 ~ 2008 Qantas Annual Report
2008 2,395,414
2007 1,659,238
2006 1,423,530
2005 1,418,599
---------------------
Total $6,896,791

Alan is certainly doing ok. Add another 10.9M for this year. To put things in perspective, Uncle Geoff was CEO for 9 years and earned $46M with a total profit of $4.8B.

ACMS
7th Sep 2018, 12:04
Oh, Alan just has good timing :D

V-Jet
7th Sep 2018, 13:05
I have some sympathy with Alan. If employees didn’t have such clouded judgement, one can only surmise that his remuneration (‘luck’?) may have been so much greater and maybe a dollar of profit might have been able to have been made during his tenure.

Clearly that embarrassing and appalling demonstration of bullying and managerial ineptitude has ruffled sequinned feathers in some way or the thread wouldn’t have been removed. This would suggest it was indeed genuine. What a disgraceful performance.

Rated De
7th Sep 2018, 13:18
Oh, Alan just has good timing :D





And in terms on Alan's renumeration; wasn't the spike a result of his LTIP vesting, which is part of his renumeration package, and linked to various metrics, which have been realised?

And just to add further context to this amazing performance, the 'achieved metrics' and to Mr Joyce's incredible luck:

The STIP (short term incentive plan) includes such interesting metrics as:

Underlying PBT A management approved profit (Non statutory) measure (How lucky is that?)
Such novel benchmarks as the Bain and Company "Net Promoter Score" (by management consultants, for management-You're Welcome!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter
Punctuality ( He gets a bonus from OTP!)
Domestic network advantage (what does that mean?)
Board’s assessment of Operational Safety (like asking your barber if you need a haircut really)



Qantas’ 3-year TSR performance compared to:
– ASX100 companies
– A global airline peer group

Over the 3-year performance period of the 2016–2018 LTIP (LONG TERM INCENTIVE PLAN)
the Qantas share price grew from $3.16 to $6.16,

Boy they were lucky! All rather coincidentally they decided to impair the CGU in FY14! A $326 million depreciation saving the next year, a turnaround profit and share price improvement as well!

Lucky wasn't it!

tail wheel
7th Sep 2018, 22:31
I wonder if it was the moderators under legal threat or the Captain who started it under duress from the company?

PPRuNe Moderators did not delete the thread.

gordonfvckingramsay
7th Sep 2018, 23:01
PPRuNe Moderators did not delete the thread

Option 2 then?

dragon man
8th Sep 2018, 00:20
PPRuNe Moderators did not delete the thread.


Thank you.

Keg
8th Sep 2018, 00:39
Maybe it wasn’t the captain who wrote the letter who started the thread and whilst he didn’t mind it being discussed on in general terms, didn’t want the text out in public? As such he asked whoever posted it to take it down?

ruprecht
8th Sep 2018, 01:13
It’s on qrewroom now.

rowdy trousers
8th Sep 2018, 01:23
According to yesterday’s news, Joyce’s pay has nosedived to about half that of the previous year - no wonder he is so upset about the letter. How is anyone supposed to survive on only $12m - $13m?. Forget about donating the bonus to the drought stricken farmers, we need to give it to poor Alan.

Popgun
8th Sep 2018, 05:56
This action clearly fails the Pub Test. AJ and his senior advisors have failed to accurately read the room here.

With several pilot EAs due for renegotiation in the near future, I suspect that this current senior management team will only bargain with a modicum of honesty if they have the threat of protected industrial action on the table.

It will be interesting to see whether the pilot groups and their union/s move for overwhelming no votes followed by the lodgement of a PIA application.

PG

Rated De
8th Sep 2018, 08:47
This action clearly fails the Pub Test. AJ and his senior advisors have failed to accurately read the room here.

With several pilot EAs due for renegotiation in the near future, I suspect that this current senior management team will only bargain with a modicum of honesty if they have the threat of protected industrial action on the table.

It will be interesting to see whether the pilot groups and their union/s move for overwhelming no votes followed by the lodgement of a PIA application.

PG


Perhaps all of this is another circus of drama and subterfuge.
Rather like a dull soapy, airlines are a grind. Got to inject some drama.

Mr Joyce is ill suited to transforming anything other than airline CEO remuneration (for himself) so a bit of theatre and drama may distract to duplicitous main stream media for a bit.
That and a few more Chairman's lounge memberships and family upgrades..

For Mr Joyce to dig in retort to threats is high risk. His thinly veiled rage in the emailed response if accurate and legitimate exposes him. The numbers presented here show the reality of Qantas performance and the reward received for a very average performance. With growing income inequality in Australia this is not a good optic.No amount of advertising spend into mainstream print and electronic media will cover it.
The public haven't forgotten 29 October 2011. Canberra hasn't forgotten it and the staff most certainly haven't.

downdata
8th Sep 2018, 14:45
I don't think it is right to compare profit after tax as a measure of company performance on business in different jurisdictions, with different laws, and who are operating in different business cycles, and using non-statutory measures.

And in terms on Alan's renumeration; wasn't the spike a result of his LTIP vesting, which is part of his renumeration package, and linked to various metrics, which have been realised?

Which have been realised because he wasted billions buying back shares just to vesting those rights / options

Rated De
8th Sep 2018, 22:56
Which have been realised because he wasted billions buying back shares just to vesting those rights / options

The Economist has called them “an addiction to corporate cocaine.” Reuters has called them “self-cannibalization.” The Financial Times has called them “an overwhelming conflict of interest.” In an article that won the HBR McKinsey Award for the best article of the year, Harvard Business Review has called them “stock price manipulation.” These influential journals make a powerful case that wholesale stock buybacks are a bad idea—bad economically, bad financially, bad socially, bad legally and bad morally.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2018/03/25/why-its-raining-share-buybacks-on-wall-street/#19f2ff323346


Qantas fleet metrics are horrible. Outgoing prehistoric Chair MR Leigh Clifford claimed it was the QSA 1992 preventing the re-equipment of the Qantas fleet https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/604103-so-you-need-new-fleet-leigh.html?highlight=qantas+fleet . Mr Roger Montgomery (Montgomery Funds Management) chimed in July 2018 and noted very correctly that:

Qantas has introduced just nine new aircraft or 3.7 per cent of groupseat capacity over the last three years and so a minimum of $1.4bn a year will be required to maintain a constant fleet age, with an additional $300m spend on the nonaircraft asset base making $1.7bn. That matches depreciation, but depreciation is based on historical costs so it is still probably undercooking how much is needed to keep the fleet fresh, new and competitive

How much Qantas spent on share buy backs is an interesting point. As we pointed out in the thread https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/604103-so-you-need-new-fleet-leigh.html?highlight=qantas+fleet Qantas share buy backs totals are around $1.75 billion, before including this year's self enrichment program. This equals the amount Mr Montgomery assesses Qantas still need to spend, just to keep the fleet age where it is.

There have been very few beneficiaries from the self interest driven neglect perpetrated on Qantas by Mr Clifford and his Baron robbers including Mr Joyce, other than a few insiders.
Peer reviewed Qantas performance is sub optimal, unless of course one includes CEO remuneration, what has been achieved there is indeed 'trans formative'

All a question of 'perspective' isn't it Mr Joyce?

roger6
9th Sep 2018, 21:13
I am not allowed to post a URL due not enough posts thus far but if you do a search - 'CEO of Japan Airlines takes the bus to work' you will see how a 'not greedy' CEO operates.

Rated De
9th Sep 2018, 22:01
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/japan-airline-boss-sets-exec-example/

Thanks roger6

There you go Mr Joyce, a little bit of perspective for you.

73qanda
9th Sep 2018, 22:49
It will not work if leaders treat themselves one way and employees another way," said Gary Kelly, the CEO of Southwest Airlines.

Nishimatsu says a CEO doesn't motivate by how many millions he makes, but by convincing employees you're all together in the same boat.


Thats one approach. A lot of companies take the exact opposite approach and it could be argued that both ways ‘work’ just for different people. I suspect that alienating your staff and using ‘divide and conquer ‘ works until the whole shooting match relies on people pulling together as a team to get through a difficult time. Joe Bloggs won’t commit, lay it on the line, and go the extra mile for an outfit that has consistently shafted him for the last decade.

machtuk
10th Sep 2018, 00:26
The western worlds way of doing business is thru personal decadence not for the good of many! Western world CEO's today are much like politicians, they 'seem' to be for the people on the outside but that just 'seems' to be the case, we all know different!
Few rich powerful people think beyond their own little world, sad really as we only get one shot at life, some leave a legacy for others to remember in a fond way, many leave an ugly legacy forever etched in the annuals of grubby business.

Rated De
10th Sep 2018, 22:24
Thats one approach. A lot of companies take the exact opposite approach and it could be argued that both ways ‘work’ just for different people. I suspect that alienating your staff and using ‘divide and conquer ‘ works until the whole shooting match relies on people pulling together as a team to get through a difficult time. Joe Bloggs won’t commit, lay it on the line, and go the extra mile for an outfit that has consistently shafted him for the last decade.

With the IR system heavily skewed to the employer's favour, traditional means of non co operation are difficult to sanction. Days lost to strike action in FY 1718 are 16% of the figure they were in 1992. Whether that is a good or bad things is also a perspective.
What is abundantly clear is that organised labour has limited means at their disposal.

6321.0.55.001 - Industrial Disputes, Australia, Jun 2018 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/mf/6321.0.55.001)

What labour does have is individual choice. Mr Joyce has not transformed anything other than his remuneration. What Mr Hood did is politely suggest that there is something wrong. A petulant, over the top response from a seriously over paid and under performing CEO can be quietly protested. Withdrawing co-operation from simply not answering a personal mobile telephone when not strictly contractually required, to all sorts of wonderfully creative ways employees can turn their back on the regime.

blow.n.gasket
11th Sep 2018, 00:50
How about a team of Union resourced “Angels” hitting the public social media domain, putting out there the real facts and figures rather than the “ fake news “ concocted Qantas spin aptly supported by their own sponsored team of
“Qantas Angels “ !
( led to believe the sub-continent angels live in the fishbowl down in the bowels of QCA . Would Mephistopheles be more apt ?)
Wasn’t Alan almost forced to fall on his sword after the lockout and the resultant damage done to his reputation due to public backlash and perception ?
Took a lot of Angel / pixy dust to turn that personality public perception catastrophe around !
Build the resources to battle the Qantas spin machine and influence directly the general public’s perception of the money grubbing ineptitude of senior Qantas management and I’m positive you will achieve far more in the way of targeted scalps rather than damaging the Company’s profitability through unsanctionable personal industrial action .
Build it and they will come (or go hopefully)!

zanthrus
11th Sep 2018, 17:17
Little Gay Al is doing it hard this year. Poor Diddums! My heart bleeds....not! :mad: