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GWhizz
6th Sep 2018, 23:08
Is there an Aussie union out there who would like to represent a couple of hundred pilots? AFAP and the TWU can put their hands down......apparently it's quite ok to pick and choose the most "winnable" battles despite there being a very clear set of EBA clauses not being adhered to. The only alternative left for an aggrieved pilot is to take the company on by themselves and live in hope that their chosen representatives will be there to pick up the pieces. Black and white cases where pilots are at a disadvantage and the response is as weak as a glass of water, or worse still nothing at all, and always to the detriment of the members. Membership dues paid in good faith but very little support or consultation in return, disgraceful!!

This is not a go at individuals or airlines in any way, it is a very big go at inwardly focused unions who expect pilots to represent themselves and do most of the dirty work.

Change Management
8th Sep 2018, 00:52
What exactly are you annoyed about whizz? Do you have an example?

VH-FTS
8th Sep 2018, 22:27
AFAP, TWU and EBA breaches. You must be talking about a certain ATR operator.

GWhizz
8th Sep 2018, 23:11
No VH-FTS but interesting that you feel that way about them in relation to that particular operator, I thought it was just us being let down.

Change Management, an example:

Multiple pilots having grievances with EBA compliance and/or interpretation that was not in the spirit of the negotiated clause, which in some cases was clarified prior to the EBA going to the vote and is now being reneged on. The position of one union is along the lines of "if you don't like it, get on the committee". Pilots have been paying this particular union very generous sums of money only to be told that the unions hands are tied unless the pilots fight the breach themselves. There are pilots spending significant amounts of their private time doing the work of their union. Ironic that a union would promote free labour don't you think.

The union involved was asked prior to the commencement of the EBA if they had allocated any resources to ensure a smooth transition of the new EBA (for both the pilots and the airline) and the reply was effectively "don't stress, we got this". So I'm told most of the Pilot Council and the Senior Officer of the union were on leave when the EBA came into force, god knows what the other union were doing. Individuals (pilots) who had nominated as independent reps were the only source of quasi legal backing when their colleagues were short changed. When the matter of poor union support was escalated to people higher up in the union, the official position from the union was that there is no real right to a service from the union per se.

I wonder what my union dues are being used for, if not to protect member rights

davidclarke
9th Sep 2018, 01:56
Gwizz.
You’re not talking about a particular low cost carrier are you?🐯......

GWhizz
9th Sep 2018, 02:42
I’d rather this not be an airline bashing thread, there are plenty of those, this is all about the way we pilots are being “represented” by the publicly available unions. As I said in my earlier post though, it is interesting that it’s not limited to the members in my organization.

machtuk
9th Sep 2018, 06:05
Long time observer, just joined.
From my past experience (now semi retired) Airline Co's love to divide & conquer, this is one thing they love to see, disputes between the troops & the unions that are meant t represent them, it always works in the Co's favor sadly:-)
I hope you guys can stick to your guns, LCC's, greedy CEO's etc all mean the troops are getting further & further down the food chain!

Good luck

QuarterInchSocket
9th Sep 2018, 09:05
I’d rather this not be an airline bashing thread, there are plenty of those, this is all about the way we pilots are being “represented” by the publicly available unions. As I said in my earlier post though, it is interesting that it’s not limited to the members in my organization.

Nor are the issues you encounter confined to the unions you mention, either. The best of the unions are those comprised and controlled by existing employees or those intimately acquainted with it’s memberships duties.

I can empathise with your experience and unfortunately for us, there’s no justice. We are fighting for our weak as p$ss unions to take action on one front, and on the other we are up against the employer.

Its not a good situation to be in, particularly when the legal instruments and industrial law framework work against an employees aswell.

I appreciate most of what I’ve written is not assistive. Good luck!

Derfred
9th Sep 2018, 11:03
Given that you refuse to provide any specifics, I can only offer a generalised response.

Your Union is YOU. Look up the definition.

How many of your colleagues are volunteering their time on their days’ off to try to resolve your problems?

Having a whinge on PPRuNe because you have to lift a finger to help the Union? The problem is you.

If you don’t like the way your Union operates, get involved... you might be surprised by what you learn.

industry insider
9th Sep 2018, 11:12
How many of your colleagues are volunteering their time on their days’ off to try to resolve your problems?

Defred

Did you read GWhizz's posts?

There are pilots spending significant amounts of their private time doing the work of their union. Ironic that a union would promote free labour don't you think.

Xeptu
10th Sep 2018, 01:49
As one of the original architects of a Pilot Association and its relationship with its representing Union, I can shed some light on how it works.

The pilot groups association does all the real work. Those issues that are raised by pilot members with the association, usually through its own members website or portal and end up on a list. From there the committee seeks to determine does the issue have support.

The issues on that list are broken into two groups, must haves and nice to have.

The must haves must be supported by a better than 2/3 majority of the membership, while the nice to haves only a majority.

The percentage of support for those matters are normally a closely guarded secret, in some cases even from the committee itself. The reason for that is that if a must have issue is or will be unpopular with the company, then they will actively attempt to lobby against the issue. We call that divide and conquer.

Nice to have issues are listed and an attempt is made to introduce them into the negotiation phase of the next EBA.

The Chairman of the Pilots Association is usually the Unions Delegate.

What the Union will not do:

Seek to represent an individual on Check and Training matters.

Use its Industrial Muscle for the benefit of individual members.

Use its Industrial muscle for nice to have issues.

What the Union will do:

Seek to represent the Pilot Group on industrial matters and EBA negotiations and apply if necessary its industrial muscle for Must have Issues.



Matters other than check and training issues that impact upon individual members are normally dealt with by the Pilot Groups Committee and its close working relationship with the company.

Regardless of any issue, the Committee and the Union must always act in the best interests of the greater majority of its pilot group or membership.

3 Holer
10th Sep 2018, 05:06
For some time now, in Oz anyway, a Pilot's union with Industrial Muscle has been nothing more than a euphemism.
Sorry if that sounds pessimistic.

Xeptu
10th Sep 2018, 05:35
It’s been many years since Industrial Muscle has been seen in Australia. Every Union has muscle, it only needs the full support of its membership in order to use it. That said it must still be used Responsibly and Justly. It should never be them and us.

The next display of serious industrial muscle we’ll see is when the average Australians power (electricity) gets switched off because we can’t afford it. It will trigger a chain of events not seen in this country since the 70’s and I’m thinking it’s not all that far away.

This generation of Australians for the first time will see for themselves what Industrial muscle is.

GWhizz
10th Sep 2018, 22:13
Given that you refuse to provide any specifics, I can only offer a generalised response.

Your Union is YOU. Look up the definition.

How many of your colleagues are volunteering their time on their days’ off to try to resolve your problems?

Having a whinge on PPRuNe because you have to lift a finger to help the Union? The problem is you.

If you don’t like the way your Union operates, get involved... you might be surprised by what you learn.

Derfred your response sounds all too familiar.

I can tell you quite categorically that dozens of my colleagues volunteer their time to resolve, not mine, but everybody's problem. The problem is not a lack of work being put into resolving them, but a lack of uptake by the unions once the work is done. In short, the unions have been a dead end. on many matters.

It is galling when a problem is identified by a pilot, all direct channels for a correction are exhausted and refused by the airline and the union deems it "only a minor issue". You want examples: Allowances, DEC's and transfers, rostering breaches to name a few, black and white issues made grey by the union. The unions cannot even begin to conceive how many pilots dumped their union reps and nominated individuals for one recent EB negotiation. They may not have left the union completely as the insurance policy kept them there, but they voted with their feet when it came to their confidence (or lack of) in the union in question having the pilots best interests at heart during an EB negotiation.

Berealgetreal
11th Sep 2018, 00:22
Get Solar, problem solved..

Xeptu
12th Sep 2018, 01:21
It sounds to me that your pilot group is fractured. Your EBA doesn't help either. What may well be a black and white issue in your EBA may well not be enforceable in law.
For example, allowances are enforcable, DEC's and Transfers are not enforcable and if rostering breaches fall into the reasonable overtime category, again not enforceable. These are not things the unions created and whilst they have remained in the EBA's over the years, there's a fair argument they should'nt be. You can't go to war over an unenforceable issue

Berealgetreal, Solar power won't run your Heater or your Air-conditioner and if one can't afford the quarterly power bill how does one afford Solar. In any case a solar array that you paid for isn't there for your benefit it's there for the energy company's benefit. Think about what you produce and how much you are paid for it verses what you pay. Who really benefits.

neville_nobody
12th Sep 2018, 03:42
It sounds to me that your pilot group is fractured. Your EBA doesn't help either. What may well be a black and white issue in your EBA may well not be enforceable in law.
For example, allowances are enforcable, DEC's and Transfers are not enforcable and if rostering breaches fall into the reasonable overtime category, again not enforceable. These are not things the unions created and whilst they have remained in the EBA's over the years, there's a fair argument they should'nt be. You can't go to war over an unenforceable issue

However if the situation was flipped around and Pilots were flagrantly breaching an EBA on gray areas what do you think would happen?

I think there is a general feeling of frustration at the double standards held on EBA interpretation and the general lack of enforcement by Unions over EBA issues. This issue does not appear to be restricted to one particular Pilot Union and or Company either. It's all well and good to play the responsible union card and keep the peace but when things keep getting eroded over a long time at what point will action be taken? As you say if there are items in a EBA that aren't enforceable then what's the point?

Xeptu
12th Sep 2018, 04:40
Well that has been the case since the Howard Governments Work Choices came into effect. at the time most of the original Award Clauses were left in the new EBA's on the belief that when a Labor Government is elected they will throw it out, they did, but it didn't go far enough. Back then what was fought for, thrashed out in Tribunals and the Industrial Court, is now decided by a 25 year old office girl at Fair Work Australia. the Industrial Architecture in Australia is a mess and until it's fixed companies will continue to take advantage of it's employees. you can do yourselves a favour by removing from your EBA's all those issues that are not enforcable, that way you are not deluding yourselves and removing some of the confusion.

I can't imagine that there is a single clause in your EBA that a pilot can flagrantly breach.

Square Bear
12th Sep 2018, 10:32
https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queens-wharf-carpenters-to-earn-288500-a-year/news-story/d73f3f69f22070404159beb711ad0788

I have a lot of respect for anyone in a trade.....but wish I was earning $288, 500 pa.

Personally I would like the CMFMMEU representing me.....not only would that supply super strong Representation, but also enable direct representation to the Future Govt of Australia, and also present Govt of QLD. Seriously...nice guys lose, time to join the other side.

And being a vowel, A for Aviation can fit there in quite a few spots.

Long live the memory of Norm.

GWhizz
12th Sep 2018, 10:47
I can't imagine that there is a single clause in your EBA that a pilot can flagrantly breach.

Nope, and nor should there be. This is the point of my “whinge”, airlines treat the EB as a guide only when it benefits them and unions treat the EB and a showcase of their legalese skills. Pilots are collateral damage in a war that we didn’t really start.

Try asking your union for a copy of their code of ethics and see what you get.

Xeptu
12th Sep 2018, 22:25
Couldn't agree with you more Whizz. Unfortunately it's not just Airlines and Pilots, it's right across the board in every industry. It is the current state of our industrial architecture. Be at least grateful you are a permanent full time employee. If the Company had it's way you would be casual and or working for a labour hire company on contract.That is something that almost didn't get changed after Work Choices.

QuarterInchSocket
13th Sep 2018, 02:33
Couldn't agree with you more Whizz. Unfortunately it's not just Airlines and Pilots, it's right across the board in every industry. It is the current state of our industrial architecture. Be at least grateful you are a permanent full time employee. If the Company had it's way you would be casual and or working for a labour hire company on contract.That is something that almost didn't get changed after Work Choices.

bit of a ‘castle built on sand’ kind of scenario though, don’t you think?

yeah, we have full time employment. But slowly and surely, bit by bit, our terms and conditions are being eroded. What are the unions strategies to mitigate this erosion of our position? I can only recommend a strengthened industrial law framework.

As we’ve both highlighted, the legal framework has degraded to the extent that there a fewer options available to unions to yield the sought outcome/s and as a result, unions are now picking and choosing which battles to fight - if at all.

Xeptu
13th Sep 2018, 04:15
Also agree with you entirely, it is indeed a castle built on sand, almost an illusion until the Industrial Architecture is fixed properly. Only a Labor Government can fix it and only then if they need to. It was Bob Hawkes Labor Government that destroyed the nation’s pilot union in the first place and John Howards Liberal Government that destroyed the nation’s Industrial Architecture.
On top of that the Nation doesn’t see pilots as average Australians and for just under half the Industry, we are not.
Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions, the same as they do not control your Pilot Group, despite its heavily weighted union membership.
When you say pick and choose their battles, it’s a case of can only fight the enforceable ones for which there are not many. Leave provisions, those that are set in law. Pay, Allowances, harassment and that’s about it.
When your kids leave school and enter the workforce for the first time, then you will truly understand how bad it really is.

LeadSled
13th Sep 2018, 08:53
Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions, the same as they do not control your Pilot Group, despite its heavily weighted union membership.
.
Xeptu,
Whatever koolaid you are quaffing, please lets us know.
The Labor Party was created by the union movement, all but a handful of current Labor parliamentarians, whether Commonwealth or State, are ex-union officials/staffers, Labor is largely financed by unions, and unions completely dominate State and Federal conferences. Rank and file members ( a threatened species) hardly get a real lookin.
The present Fair Work Act is a piece of Labor legislation.
Look up the history of why Shorten is opposition leader, and not Albo.
Tootle pip!!

Square Bear
14th Sep 2018, 07:14
"Contrary to popular belief, the Labor Party is not full of Unionists and is not controlled by the Unions"

Not sure that the Labor party is not full of "unionist", but It was reported that in 2016 45% of the ALP members of parliament were former Union OFFICIALS. At that point it was estimated that only 15% of the workforce were members of a Union.

And whilst the public probably brush of the tactics of the more militant Union actions within the building industry etc, it does not really affect them, thus no real outcry, whereas if there was a repetition of "The Event of 1989", the public would demand hangings as it would impinge of their perceived rights.

Just saying...

V-Jet
14th Sep 2018, 23:40
I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

Rated De
14th Sep 2018, 23:56
I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

Agree, simply turn the phone off and go for a well earned break, Mr Joyce would have been gone in a week.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!

The leverage used relies on this assumption; pilots need every dollar to service their debt load.

Tankengine
15th Sep 2018, 01:20
I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!
Totally agree, the lockout would have been more interesting if every Captain had simply gone home (full fare on other carriers obviously). When the company wanted to resume services after the government folded they would have had to position the crews first and generally wait 12+ hours for min rest.
Joyce’s “great idea” would have resulted in his sacking.

wombat watcher
15th Sep 2018, 12:29
I believe the lack of strength of 'unions' stems wholly from the western world's addiction to debt. The main aim of everyone starting a career (I believe) should be to set about equaling their income from independent means as soon as possible. What people tend to do is go on the big holiday, buy the car, boat, big house and as soon as they have done that they are 'owned' by their employer completely. I rang the union during the lockout and suggested no-one should return to work (for whatever reason) until Joyce was gone and sensible management installed. The answer I got was that it was a good idea, but very few would be able to exist without their salary for any time at all. I responded I felt we couldn't afford NOT to.

You load up yourself with debt laden trinkets and you can expect to have that situation used against you. Legislation is a certainly a factor, but it couldn't be used the way it has been by the truly abominable and incompetent management of Qantas if people didn't 'need' their Joyce sanctioned salary. Relying on the generosity (not to mention business acumen) from the likes of Joyce is an exercise in abject stupidity!


Sorry to correct you but there was no lockout.
What actually happened was: Joyce threatened a lockout as was his right under Australian industrial law. He went through the process of issuing the lockout notice to longhaul pilots, TWU members and licensed engineers. FWC got involved and defused the lockout during the early hours of the Sunday morning and ordered a mediation. Joyce grounded Qf on the Saturday in the interests of “ safety” while this process was underway. CASA got involved on the Sunday and would not let Qf recommence flying for a few days for the reasons of “ safety”.
No pilot ever got locked out. I’ m sure individuals thought they were.
I’m sure Joyce got just as much surprise when CASA intervened and wouldn’t let him recommence operations on the grounds of “ safety”.

V-Jet
16th Sep 2018, 10:48
I wasn’t allowed into QCC on the Saturday. Technically, I agree, the door wasn’t locked, but security (of middle eastern appearance) told me to leave the area. I did leave ‘on the grounds of safety’. It’s easy to see that being misunderstood.

gordonfvckingramsay
10th Oct 2018, 07:30
Wasn’t there a royal commission unit union misconduct some time back?

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.couriermail.com.au/news/national/unions-report-finds-extraordinary-rorting-by-wa-transport-workers-union-bosses/news-story/d323277df41a08a625b3fb06f2edd31d

Fateful trip to luxury Perth car dealer exposes TWU funds misappropriation - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-02/how-f350s-for-twu-bosses-raised-questions-at-royal-commission/7064264)

I feel your frustration Whiz, good luck though.

mustafagander
10th Oct 2018, 10:36
Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.

wombat watcher
10th Oct 2018, 10:47
Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.


“Will be locked out”. You weren’t. It was called off before the commencement time.
”Crewing told me not to turn up”. You weren’t required because before the planned lockout commenced, CASA grounded the airline for safety reasons. It continued thus for a few days.
Were you docked any pay? Ie you lost part of your MGH because you were locked out for say 1 hr? 1 day? a couple of days?

almostthere!
10th Oct 2018, 12:36
Wombat,
I call your attention to Qantas FSO Admin 062/11 which states, inter alia, all employees covered by EBA 8, that's us pilots, will be locked out.
Pretty clear to us at the time mate. Crewing told me at my 15/4 to not turn up.

Pilots were never locked out. I wonder how some people can even taxi an aircraft or take one off, let alone land one, if they cant understand the nuances of their contract and the industrial mechanisms of ensuring its integrity.

Tankengine
10th Oct 2018, 12:53
“Will be locked out”. You weren’t. It was called off before the commencement time.
”Crewing told me not to turn up”. You weren’t required because before the planned lockout commenced, CASA grounded the airline for safety reasons. It continued thus for a few days.
Were you docked any pay? Ie you lost part of your MGH because you were locked out for say 1 hr? 1 day? a couple of days?
ohh, CASA grounded the airline? I didn’t even know Alan worked for them! ;)
Remember Alan has said under oath he only decided to go ahead with the shutdown on the Saturday morning. (Do “CASA” work Saturdays?)
Docked pay? You obviously don’t know how credited hours work, I got the same pay but had to spend two extra days away from my family for it!

wombat watcher
10th Oct 2018, 14:28
ohh, CASA grounded the airline? I didn’t even know Alan worked for them! ;)
Remember Alan has said under oath he only decided to go ahead with the shutdown on the Saturday morning. (Do “CASA” work Saturdays?)
Docked pay? You obviously don’t know how credited hours work, I got the same pay but had to spend two extra days away from my family for it!




obviously you didn’t get docked pay.
because the airline was grounded you obviously got stuck in some outport.
because your pattern was based on flight time credits, you obviously didn’t get to the cutover where MDC kicked in.
the fact that you didn’t get any extra pay for your extra 2 days away from home obviously increased your bitterness about the whole lockout exercise
because you were overseas might be the reason you weren’t aware/ didn’t understand the nuances of what actually happened

If the lockout actually took place, you might have been kicked out of your company paid hotel room. That is what happened in 1966, the last time Qf pilots participated in serious industrial action. That would have given you real reason to complain.

There is a big difference between planning for a lockout as a tactic and actually pulling the trigger.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
10th Oct 2018, 14:37
So did CASA ground the airline, wombat watcher, or not? Might come as a surprise to a lot of people if they did.

wombat watcher
10th Oct 2018, 14:53
So did CASA ground the airline, wombat watcher, or not? Might come as a surprise to a lot of people if they did.



yes
AJ decided to invoke the lockout and announce it on the Saturday morning having gotten the AGM out of the wayearlier in the week
he had been planning it as a contingency for a while
He grounded the airline effective after his announcement
the guvmint was expected to refer the matter for compulsory mediation under the IR laws as a matter of public interest relatively quickly.
this was delayed until late on the saturday night
the lockout was due to come into force effective Sunday or Monday (I can’t recall)
the FWC convened late Saturday night and sat until the early hours of Sunday morning and ruled for compulsory mediation and for the lockout to be voided
the prime targets were the TWU and the LAME’s. Pilots got caught up in the action
much to Qf surprise CASA kept the airline grounded until Qf could make a case that safety wasn’t compromised by the emotional and other issues generated by the grounding and the looming lockout
it took until the Tuesday or Wednesday before this could be achieved and normal operations resumed
it was AJ who initially grounded the airline and then CASA who kept it grounded
Yes pilots received letters advising of the lockout, yes pilots were told not to report for work but no Qf pilot was actually locked out.

4Greens
10th Oct 2018, 19:55
What happened to the AFAP? It was very effective in my day, the sixties.

Captain Dart
10th Oct 2018, 22:21
It lost my job for me in the eighties.

CurtainTwitcher
10th Oct 2018, 22:29
The Qantas Safety case documents FOI are still available on the CASA website.
Qantas 2011 Safety Case (https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/lib100096/foi-ef1111807.pdf) Archived version (https://web.archive.org/web/20180218211721/www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/lib100096/foi-ef1111807.pdf).

It looks like CASA had concerns about restarting the operation (McCormick email "Safety Case Version 2" 03:38 on Monday 31 October 2011).

Rated De
10th Oct 2018, 23:00
The Qantas Safety case documents FOI are still available on the CASA website.
Qantas 2011 Safety Case (https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/lib100096/foi-ef1111807.pdf) Archived version (https://web.archive.org/web/20180218211721/www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/_assets/main/lib100096/foi-ef1111807.pdf).

It looks like CASA had concerns about restarting the operation (McCormick email "Safety Case Version 2" 03:38 on Monday 31 October 2011).

The question that lingers for many is precisely why a grounding with no announced job losses required a safety case, when an announcement of 5,000 job losses from safety critical areas did not?

Unions had been bracing for massive cuts at the airline for weeks, which they have been expecting to include engineers and pilots among the redundancies.Qantas has for years steered clear of making redundant its large workforce of pilots – including about 2600 who fly long-haul aircraft – preferring to allow them to take unpaid leave or seek time out to work for other airlines.

Regulatory capture?

GWhizz
11th Oct 2018, 00:53
What happened to the AFAP?

A very good question!! It may have even been my reason for starting this thread.

itsnotthatbloodyhard
11th Oct 2018, 00:54
yes
AJ decided to invoke the lockout and announce it on the Saturday morning having gotten the AGM out of the wayearlier in the week
he had been planning it as a contingency for a while
He grounded the airline effective after his announcement
the guvmint was expected to refer the matter for compulsory mediation under the IR laws as a matter of public interest relatively quickly.
this was delayed until late on the saturday night
the lockout was due to come into force effective Sunday or Monday (I can’t recall)
the FWC convened late Saturday night and sat until the early hours of Sunday morning and ruled for compulsory mediation and for the lockout to be voided
the prime targets were the TWU and the LAME’s. Pilots got caught up in the action
much to Qf surprise CASA kept the airline grounded until Qf could make a case that safety wasn’t compromised by the emotional and other issues generated by the grounding and the looming lockout
it took until the Tuesday or Wednesday before this could be achieved and normal operations resumed
it was AJ who initially grounded the airline and then CASA who kept it grounded
Yes pilots received letters advising of the lockout, yes pilots were told not to report for work but no Qf pilot was actually locked out.

Thank you. I’d suggest it was rather disingenuous to claim that CASA grounded the airline prior to the lockout commencing, when the grounding was very much Alan’s own work (irrespective of whether CASA then prolonged the grounding a little longer than Alan expected). You’re right that no QF pilot was actually locked out, but under the circumstances, being grounded due to industrial action, versus being locked out due to industrial action, amounted to little more than semantics.

wombat watcher
11th Oct 2018, 01:38
Thank you. I’d suggest it was rather disingenuous to claim that CASA grounded the airline prior to the lockout commencing, when the grounding was very much Alan’s own work (irrespective of whether CASA then prolonged the grounding a little longer than Alan expected). You’re right that no QF pilot was actually locked out, but under the circumstances, being grounded due to industrial action, versus being locked out due to industrial action, amounted to little more than semantics.











on the contrary.
a lot of Qf pilots believe they were locked out and are seriously affronted by that.
if they say they are affronted because they were threatened with being locked out or that they are affronted because they were served with papers notifying a lockout, they are on solid ground.
BUT to say they were actualy locked out is not correct which was my original point.
Let’s call a spade a spade. AJ took a dramatic step and grounded the airline. It was his only option other than to agree to union demands under FWC laws. It didn’t totally go the way he planned.
The result was 3 troublesome unions neutered. 3 EBA imposed arbitrations that couldn’t be regarded as wins for any group.
SP and TS rode off into the sunset to lick their wounds.Both rarely seen on TV for the past six years wheras they were always on the news before criticising everything Qf did.
No significant successful opposition to the mass redundancies especially with the Engineering department and to a lesser extent the TWU areas. All pilot redundancies were voluntary.
6 years have passed and AJ has had no union trouble from the TWU, AALEA or AIPA or for that matter from any other union.
big price to pay in the grounding.
was it worth it?
only he knows?

morno
11th Oct 2018, 17:36
Are you guys still going on about that?

Iron Bar
11th Oct 2018, 19:19
Scoob was locked out in Hong Kong!! And I think he had to pax himself home .... But that was a few weeks before everyone else was grounded.