ANA B787 "interesting go around"

[sabenaboy]

My guess?
It might be a pilot flying who is used to operate from the other seat. (new captain in the left seat, maybe?) who for a go-around is used to go right hand back, left hand forward. tI you do the same from the left seat, that's what it will look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RuvCcp_GtU

[act700]

C'mon, I don't think anyone could be that incompetent !!


My guess?
It might be a pilot flying who is used to operate from the other seat. (new captain in the left seat, maybe?) who for a go-around is used to go right hand back, left hand forward. tI you do the same from the left seat, that's what it will look like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RuvCcp_GtU

[sabenaboy]

C'mon, I don't think anyone could be that incompetent !!
Well, it happened to a friend of mine. (No, not me :) ) He was an experienced A320 f/o and in one of the first sessions of his left seat sim training training he did exactly that, when he had to perform an unexpected go around.! Luckily it was in a sim and you can bet he never made that mistake again.
Another friend of mine is TRI/TRE for the biggest carrier in the Middle East and has seen it happen on two occasions in the sim.
I would guess that sidestick a/c are more prone to this happening then Boeings.

I wouldn't call it incompetence. It's a wrong, but instinctive reaction. I would think experienced f/o's are even more at risk then less experienced ones.
I think it could happen as well to experienced captains who, after many years in the left seat, become TRI or LTC and find themselves in the right seat again.

I understand it can happen and not only to 'incompetent' pilots.

[sabenaboy]

C'mon, I don't think anyone could be that incompetent !!


It does happen, and not only in the sim...
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20120214-0

"One possible explanation is that there was momentary confusion between the actions of his left and right hands."

There's a link to the final report at the bottom of that article.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/750x1258/easyjet_a319_g_ezfv_london_120214_1_148d48e134c508941d1e8f05 ac8ae2f5ece9e7ad.jpg

[act700]

Wow, that's just plain scary. That should be long sorted before being turned loose on line!!


It does happen, and not only in the sim...
https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20120214-0

"One possible explanation is that there was momentary confusion between the actions of his left and right hands."

There's a link to the final report at the bottom of that article.

[giggitygiggity]

Wow, that's just plain scary. That should be long sorted before being turned loose on line!!

As far as I know, it was their first ever line training flight in the left seat after being an experienced FO in the RHS. Obviously classed as a VERY scary brain fart, but a brain fart none the less and something that was (hopefully just once) unavoidable no matter how much training they'd done in the simulator.

[flyingins]

Hi Guys,
Hop on YouTube and search for ‘Narita Crosswind landings’, or similar. Most of those videos are ‘normal’ windy days when any Sou-Wester above 25 knots will lead to multiple go-arounds as a result of moderate to strong windshear below 500 feet.

Typhoon Cimaron was a beast and although it didn’t directly hit Tokyo (it nailed Osaka, however - disabled all ground-based Navaids and damaged a runway at Kansai), it passed close enough to be very noticeable. What you’re seeing with this ANA 787 has nothing to do with control confusion. In my experience it’s exactly what you’d expect to see from any aircraft at Narita with winds of the force this Typhoon were generating.

[Concours77]

Hi Guys,
Hop on YouTube and search for ‘Narita Crosswind landings’, or similar. Most of those videos are ‘normal’ windy days when any Sou-Wester above 25 knots will lead to multiple go-arounds as a result of moderate to strong windshear below 500 feet.

Typhoon Cimaron was a beast and although it didn’t directly hit Tokyo (it nailed Osaka, however - disabled all ground-based Navaids and damaged a runway at Kansai), it passed close enough to be very noticeable. What you’re seeing with this ANA 787 has nothing to do with control confusion. In my experience it’s exactly what you’d expect to see from any aircraft at Narita with winds of the force this Typhoon were generating.


I don’t see controls “reversal” as applicable. What it looks like is classic wind shear/microburst. Sudden increase in airspeed in the head wind, then abrupt decrease with loss of lift and altitude in the tailwind. The way the nose drops seems too rapid for elevators only... (thinking Eastern Lockheed 1011 at Dallas, in which I lost a friend)....

[LeadSled]

Hi Guys,
Hop on YouTube and search for ‘Narita Crosswind landings’, or similar. Most of those videos are ‘normal’ windy days when any Sou-Wester above 25 knots will lead to multiple go-arounds as a result of moderate to strong windshear below 500 feet.
Folks,
I concur with flyingins about Narita, based on personal experience. A number of aircraft have been damaged, with at least one hull loss that comes to mind, due low level turbulence/shears.
Tootle pip!!

[WingNut60]

Slowest landing I've ever experienced - TG from Seattle to Narita, many years ago.
Must have had 100 kt on the nose.
Looked like I could have hopped out and jogged at any point in the landing.

Later in transit lounge, cloud passing about 10 metres over the terminal building was just a blur.

[sabenaboy]

Hi Guys,
Hop on YouTube and search for ‘Narita Crosswind landings’, or similar. Most of those videos are ‘normal’ windy days when any Sou-Wester above 25 knots will lead to multiple go-arounds as a result of moderate to strong windshear below 500 feet.

Typhoon Cimaron was a beast and although it didn’t directly hit Tokyo (it nailed Osaka, however - disabled all ground-based Navaids and damaged a runway at Kansai), it passed close enough to be very noticeable. What you’re seeing with this ANA 787 has nothing to do with control confusion. In my experience it’s exactly what you’d expect to see from any aircraft at Narita with winds of the force this Typhoon were generating.
Well, I'm not convinced. In my career I've never experienced, seen or heard of low level turbulence causing such a big and sudden pitch change. Up or down drafts ok, but such a pitch change? Never!
We'll never know for sure without having access to the FDM data, which won't happen. It think my explanation is the most plausible, but other causes can't be excluded, of course.

[hans brinker]

Well, I'm not convinced. In my career I've never experienced, seen or heard of low level turbulence causing such a big and sudden pitch change. Up or down drafts ok, but such a pitch change? Never!
We'll never know for sure without having access to the FDM data, which won't happen. It think my explanation is the most plausible, but other causes can't be excluded, of course.

Too soon to say what caused it, but I do agree it seems very likely it was PIO and not up/down-drafts that caused such pitch changes.

[tcasblue]

The Boeing symposium I attended was quite interesting with focus on aircraft flown by the company. Here is what they said on one particular subject.....

"The 787 aircraft fuselage is flexible and vibrations can develop(called Body Structural Modes). These vibrations can be transmitted by the pilot to the control column(known as Airplane Pilot Coupling).

There is a new section in the 787 FCTM about Body Structural Modes.

The 787 has a Vertical Mode Suppression function as an integral component of the flight control system. It is active during manual flight in Normal Mode and Landing Flaps manual flight for the 787-9 and in Normal Mode and any flap setting when below 315 CAS on the 787-10.

Note: Enhancements to the 787-9 VMS with FCM CBP5 SB787-27A0044, released December 18, 2018.

It is suggested to keep a relaxed grip on the controls and avoid sharp or oscillatory control inputs."

[Vessbot]

The Boeing symposium I attended was quite interesting with focus on aircraft flown by the company. Here is what they said on one particular subject.....

"The 787 aircraft fuselage is flexible and vibrations can develop(called Body Structural Modes). These vibrations can be transmitted by the pilot to the control column(known as Airplane Pilot Coupling).

There is a new section in the 787 FCTM about Body Structural Modes.

The 787 has a Vertical Mode Suppression function as an integral component of the flight control system. It is active during manual flight in Normal Mode and Landing Flaps manual flight for the 787-9 and in Normal Mode and any flap setting when below 315 CAS on the 787-10.

Note: Enhancements to the 787-9 VMS with FCM CBP5 SB787-27A0044, released December 18, 2018.

It is suggested to keep a relaxed grip on the controls and avoid sharp or oscillatory control inputs."

The unforeseen interactions of parts of a complex system is an interesting topic. When I was flying the Extra 300, in high speed descents the tiniest bump of turbulence would excite a yaw oscillation that would continue indefinitely, fed by my body swaying left and right in the seat and pressing alternating rudder pedals in phase. So I would have to stiffen up my legs and it would go away.

Or, the CRJ 700/900 equipped with IRSes, at or near idle N1's, the fan excites a harmonic of the IRS mounting, which sometimes causes about a 4Hz pulse of the stick with autopilot engaged. It's in our manuals, as long as it's not "excessive" or causes pitching of the airplane, disregard and treat as normal.