Penny Finally Dropping at RYR???

[jonesyinthesky]

Pal sent this to me over weekend, looks like Penny finally dropping, im not going to print screen everything he sent but basically memo sent out saying all new recruits in UK will now receive salaries below from 1st Sep, perhaps a sign of the model to come and the tide is finally turning.https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1073x590/ryr_9794bacfd1887cf951736da9da521bf72d82a92e.jpg,

[737 Jockey]

Pal sent this to me over weekend, looks like Penny finally dropping, im not going to print screen everything he sent but basically memo sent out saying all new recruits in UK will now receive salaries below from 1st Sep, perhaps a sign of the model to come and the tide is finally turning.https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1073x590/ryr_9794bacfd1887cf951736da9da521bf72d82a92e.jpg,


The figures look okay, however, unless there’s a culling of senior management (unlikely while profits remain vast), the culture will not change. IMHO a change of culture is what’s needed for Pilots and Cabin Crew to settle their ’Beef’ and stop leaving in droves. For so many years now, it’s not really been about money, it’s been about fair and transparent basing, annual leave policies and basic dignity and respect for ‘employees’.

It is paradoxical that an airline with a fantastic fixed pattern roster (if you’re in your base of choice) and which is hugely profitable can not retain its staff. It’s so glaringly obvious for everyone except those Clowns in Dublin. Unfortunately, they’re so wealthy and therefore arrogant, they just don’t (need to) care!

[Full_blast]

The figures look okay, however, unless there’s a culling of senior management (unlikely while profits remain vast), the culture will not change. IMHO a change of culture is what’s needed for Pilots and Cabin Crew to settle their ’Beef’ and stop leaving in droves. For so many years now, it’s not really been about money, it’s been about fair and transparent basing, annual leave policies and basic dignity and respect for ‘employees’.

It is paradoxical that an airline with a fantastic fixed pattern roster (if you’re in your base of choice) and which is hugely profitable can not retain its staff. It’s so glaringly obvious for everyone except those Clowns in Dublin. Unfortunately, they’re so wealthy and therefore arrogant, they just don’t (need to) care!

What he said.

But instead let's just make Joe Public think that all Ryanair pilots want is money, by uploading on Ryanair corporate website payslips only showing the GROSS amount of a Base captain (that also holds the LTC qualification) flying 100h+ while he/she enjoys an industry leading NASA approved roster.

[shaftsburn]

Very cheeky to include "Expenses Allow." in these tables.
They are comparing the salary to Jet2, who provide HOTAC, taxis, hire cars, uniform, drinks etc. Other expenses are also reimbursed.
If you take the expenses out of the comparison, a RYR FO earns 4.7% less than their J2 counterpart.

[Wizofoz]

….Did you also not notice that the actual increase in total earnings for a Captain was 1%??

[Quasar2548]

Jet2 have also introduced profit share. Estimated £4500 per annum plus another 3% plus a few grand pay rise in April (estimated). So you can add another £10,500 to the Jet2 column. Plus they pay for everything. Still it’s a push in the right direction for Ryanair.
Also didn’t Ryanair also say that Ryanair Pilots earn 20% more than Jet2 Pilots in an original memo? Guess 12% is a step backwards.

[Elephant and Castle]

When will the finally learn that clever as they think they are everyone is just as clever as them and sees right through their bull****.

Sadly, no. Penny hasn't dropped yet

[Luke258]

Happy to see that they finally adjusted the basic salary. Now people can plan with a decent salary. However there's much more to come. Starting by providing free water for example. Also that month off BS should stop. What is it worth to have 10 AL?? Give the people their 25-30 AL and things start to look better. Now add a seniority list and add a couple of days AL for people being in the company for ages. Plus a bidding system for AL based on seniority. The staff shortage will solve itself. I'm sure many people would like to go back to Ryanair.

[jonesyinthesky]

Happy to see that they finally adjusted the basic salary. Now people can plan with a decent salary. However there's much more to come. Starting by providing free water for example. Also that month off BS should stop. What is it worth to have 10 AL?? Give the people their 25-30 AL and things start to look better. Now add a seniority list and add a couple of days AL for people being in the company for ages. Plus a bidding system for AL based on seniority. The staff shortage will solve itself. I'm sure many people would like to go back to Ryanair.

memo says they want to replace current holiday system in UK with 4 blocks of 5 days plus 8 ad hoc days and base transfers will be based on seniority and base transfer lists published etc

[Luke258]

memo says they want to replace current holiday system in UK with 4 blocks of 5 days plus 8 ad hoc days and base transfers will be based on seniority and base transfer lists published etc
Any info on when this will be implemented? It's good news. I'm happy for you guys!

[Well Used]

At least you know where you are with RYR, you haven't got a clue at jet2. RYR is 5/4 Jet2 is a random roster.

But don't worry everything will be fine at Jet2 next year as they've learnt from the mistakes. However a more experienced colleague stated in the crew room this week. 'Ive heard the same message every year for the last 9 years'.

[4Screwaircrew]

The memo that went with those figures was of the usual bullying variety, BALPA reps not rolling over and doing what RYR want so they try to go direct to the crews and cut the BALPA team out, they have a long way to go before the penny drops!

[Maxfli]

......................However a more experienced colleague stated in the crew room this week. 'Ive heard the same message every year for the last 9 years'.

But he is still there after 9 years which speaks volumes.

Have Ryanair changed? A bit.
Will they change more? If they need to.
The only reason airlines change the Ts & Cs is when they lose too many crew, market economy at the moment.

As the £ heads for parity with €, watch the number of guys opting for jobs that pay in €s

[Mr Angry from Purley]

At least you know where you are with RYR, you haven't got a clue at jet2. RYR is 5/4 Jet2 is a random roster.

But don't worry everything will be fine at Jet2 next year as they've learnt from the mistakes. However a more experienced colleague stated in the crew room this week. 'Ive heard the same message every year for the last 9 years'.
Well used
Pray tell what mistakes? Jet 2 have always had a random roster
If you colleagues of 9 years doesn't like it....

[FlipFlapFlop]

Since when was salary the issue with RYR ?

[Elephant and Castle]

Since you cannot avoid paying taxes

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

At least you know where you are with RYR, you haven't got a clue at jet2. RYR is 5/4 Jet2 is a random roster.

A random roster that is published weeks in advance detailing your days off. You can always use your 3 request days off every month, months in advance. You can also have leave in the peak summer, something that I don’t believe is possible at FR.

[FlipFlapFlop]

Since you cannot avoid paying taxes
Tongue in cheek I guess.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Do TREs have a different calendar JFP?

Yes we do.

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

Yes we do.


They're on the triple CCC system...

Curry
Club
Calendar

[Callsign Kilo]

Pilots will treat FR as a serious option when the current organ grinders depart with their vast share options and their millions in the bank. Until then it will remain a revolving door.

[MaverickPrime]

Would like to see MOL work for £130k a year, a monkey really could do his job better!

[Lazydogg]

A random roster that is published weeks in advance detailing your days off. You can always use your 3 request days off every month, months in advance. You can also have leave in the peak summer, something that I don’t believe is possible at FR.

Nonsense. Everything single Captain at the Base I operate from got one weeks leave this summer. Latched on to 4 days off each side that’s 13 days off in a row.

[Graybulls]

A random roster that is published weeks in advance detailing your days off. You can always use your 3 request days off every month, months in advance. You can also have leave in the peak summer, something that I don’t believe is possible at FR.



Wrong, it is possible here

I've just finished my 13 days off in August, which was 5 days of leave on a 5/4/5/4 roster. This was in addition to my previous 13 days off in early July. More summer leave this year than ever before with my previous lot!

[Maxfli]

Would like to see MOL work for £130k a year, a monkey really could do his job better!

Well he gets paid a lot of peanuts.........................


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/925x250/screen_shot_2018_08_27_at_11_32_14_96492bf8dc7b597788b98a898 1d602b348791c69.png

[gardenshed]

Plus of course Ryanair guys are flying 900 hours a year, Jet2 do far less.
If you work out an hourly rate Jet2 comes out far better.

[Normal Pilot]

Hours are irrelevant, how many days off do RYR get in comparison to Jet2? Sitting at home on standby is a working day, can’t make any plans or do anything too far from the house.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Wrong, it is possible here

humble apologies then. I was merely going off what I had been told by the guys that have jumped ship and joined Jet2 over the last year or so.

[OhNoCB]

That's always going to depend on what exactly you want to do and how far away from work you are. With a 2 hour standby callout there is plenty I do and can do on standby.

[OhNoCB]

definitely not.

[Boeing 7E7]

Hours are irrelevant, how many days off do RYR get in comparison to Jet2? Sitting at home on standby is a working day, can’t make any plans or do anything too far from the house.



True. But who goes away all the time? There are so many things you can do at home or nearby that don’t make it too bad an option. I know one guy who built a house. I prefer to spend it in my underpants.

[Bam Thwok]

What’s a standby ??...... not had one rostered for the last 3 months !!
As for Jet2’s “random” rostering......it’s been pretty much a “fixed” 6 on/ 3 off - 5 on/ 2 off roster for me all summer !!

For me personally, as an “old timer”, I’ve just about had it with this company......and I’m not alone in my thoughts.
The recent memo from our DFO doesn’t install me with any confidence in it getting any better over the next few years either, as we continually expand.
Whoopie Doo......an “extra” 36 pilots are to be recruited for next year above the already inadequate forecasted number needed.
Those poor 36 aren’t even going to touch the sides of the problems we are experiencing from the resulting chaos of the company’s outdated attitude to crewing levels.
Oh, and the best bit, the company are to recruit yet another “Aircrew Manager” to manage us......that’ll be 3 of them doing effectively nothing !!.......surely making it “37” extra pilots would have more of a beneficial result.

You can all have your pissing up the wall competition as to the pros and cons of EXS and RYR but at the end of the day it’s all down to us as individuals and our own selfish needs and wants.
I honestly NEVER envisaged the day that I would EVER even entertain the thought, such is my hatred for what MOL has done to my profession, but this old timer is seriously contemplating jumping to the “Dark Side” !!

[Well Used]

One of the best posts I've read in a a while Bam and it sums up sentiment nicely but lets wait and see what JFP has to say on here as it will be the mgt line unlike the crew room where his gob is usually at 'MCT'.

PM due to always being closely guarded by a mgt 'pilot' doesn't have a clue the mess its all in.

IMO of course.

[whitemonk]

I don't disagree with anything posted above and the new aircrew manager job is a complete joke, however, I spoke to another 'Jet2 old timer' recently who told me two things which really struck me:

Everything at RYR is worse than at Jet2, except the 5-4 roster
Taking into account his expenses, he flew 800+ hours last year and earned £2000 (before tax) more than a Jet2 737 Captain, on circa 500 hours....

[Normal Pilot]

But how many days OFF did he get compared to a Jet2 captain?

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

lets wait and see what JFP has to say on here as it will be the mgt line unlike the crew room where his gob is usually at 'MCT'.

Nice to know what some “colleagues” think from behind their keyboard.

So, Well Used, apart from typing away from behind your cloak, what have you done to try to make a difference?

Some people have me all wrong, I have never said Jet2 is perfect, it isn’t, but I have been around long enough to know that nor is anywhere else. Despite my hatred of FR, they are almost the ideal employer, 5/4 is without doubt a great asset IF you are based at home, if you aren’t it can be a 7/2 roster; they have sorted out their dodgy employment tactics of self employment, and have raised their pay scale. BUT it’s still the same clown running the show, and while he’s there all the good can, and probably will, be undone in a short few weeks when the next down turn arrives. This summer has been a tricky one without a doubt.

[cumulustratus]

Nice to know what some “colleagues” think from behind their keyboard.

So, Well Used, apart from typing away from behind your cloak, what have you done to try to make a difference?

Some people have me all wrong, I have never said Jet2 is perfect, it isn’t, but I have been around long enough to know that nor is anywhere else. Despite my hatred of FR, they are almost the ideal employer, 5/4 is without doubt a great asset IF you are based at home, if you aren’t it can be a 7/2 roster; they have sorted out their dodgy employment tactics of self employment, and have raised their pay scale. BUT it’s still the same clown running the show, and while he’s there all the good can, and probably will, be undone in a short few weeks when the next down turn arrives. This summer has been a tricky one without a doubt.

1. FR the ideal employer? Please elaborate...

2. 5/4 a great asset? How? Just as it's great to know your off days, it's equally devastating to know which days you're working when those days happen to fall on important dates in YOUR life, such as kids birthdays, family health issues, important social events etc. Personal experience says there is NO functional flexibility for your benefit unless you're a drinking buddy of someone with influence. And I've seen plenty of guys who knows a guy who'll sort them out, only to be disappointed in the last minute.

3. Sorted out the self employment? Really? Ask some of the 1000s of pilots on self employment if they woke up as employees of ryr Ltd this morning, or expect to do so in the near future. Don't believe the propaganda machine that'll say anything to get enough guys in the front of their a/c.

4. Raised the pay scale? Again, propaganda. There's a productivity bonus added to some pilots' contracts if they increase their productivity above the 900 hours they're already offering to the company. And it's temporary.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Bloody hell, I can’t do right for doing wrong. I give up.

Jet2 isn’t perfect, in my opinion it is better than FR.

Fixed roster doesn’t suit me despite the fact that I see it as a benefit to those that it does suit.

The new contracts are FR contracts are they not? I am aware of the many who are still on shonky self employed contracts.

[Well Used]

JFP, Nah ive not tried to do anything to support the company other than take roster changes to help, changed duties at very short notice, put up with crap car parking (acknowledged its affecting plenty of MAN airlines) worked days off and fallen for the stories of uncrewed flights and a need to help the customer. That however was up until the first of this month where its now a strictly follow the roster line deal as the help is only one way.

Lets also not forget that everyone thats fleeing Jet2 is going to much bigger metal, thats the reason they're going because they want to fly aircraft that are bigger, FACT. So It must be that the TUI, FR and Norwegian -800s must be much bigger than J2s hence why they're leaving for these pastures, bigger metal right??? It is absolutely nothing to do with some of the poorest crewing and rostering practices I've ever come across in 30 odd years, absolutely nothing to do with roster changes, nothing to do with a lack of meaningful staff travel etc etc etc etc etc. Its purely down to the size of the aircraft, another summer done and a caveat from the DFO that it'll be better next year.

Did he pinky swear?

It could be really good but there needs to be an urge to make it better for us from the top, whilst the trophy cabinet gets fuller by the week its the people that have done it and these people including myself are now voting with our feet. FRs training system is creaking until January now and i for one am just waiting for a date to return.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

JFP, Nah ive not tried to do anything to support the company other than take roster changes to help, changed duties at very short notice, put up with crap car parking (acknowledged its affecting plenty of MAN airlines) worked days off and fallen for the stories of uncrewed flights and a need to help the customer

we’ve all been affected by all of the things you have mentioned, but I asked what have you done to make a difference? Not how you have worked through this summer season, have you voiced your concerns, have you stuck your neck out? I know I have despite you believing I am on MCT in the crew room.

[CaptainSensible]

I wonder how much extra flexibility EASA FTL's as opposed to CAP 371 has given EXS. i.e continuous earlies, 10 hrs min down route, short notice lates to earlies etc. At least CAP 371 offered a modicum of protection as opposed to the "endeavour to " which EXS employs.

An extra aircrew manager will make no difference whatsoever nor will the "PLOG". Most Jet2 pilots know what the solution is and they either need to support that or stop complaining as individual's whinging and fatigue reports floating around like confetti have had no effect whatsoever to date.

[Lazydogg]

Hours are irrelevant, how many days off do RYR get in comparison to Jet2? Sitting at home on standby is a working day, can’t make any plans or do anything too far from the house.



Exactly right.

[Say Mach Number]

Someone mentioned about days off in RYR.

For info it works out 188 days off and 177 working per year on a fixed 5/4 roster including 28 days AL (using the AL in the most efficient way and no standbys)

Also chatting to someone recently in J2 it sounds like they may be waking up to pilots and expensive 800s lying around during the winter and the fact the 800 can stretch its legs to far flung holiday destinations all year round if it had to. The days of a 500 hour a year low cost pilot could be a thing of the past. That wont help the hourly rate debate....

Especially as accountants run most airlines these days.

[Flying Wild]

Someone mentioned about days off in RYR.

For info it works out 188 days off and 177 working per year on a fixed 5/4 roster including 28 days AL (using the AL in the most efficient way and no standbys)

Also chatting to someone recently in J2 it sounds like they may be waking up to pilots and expensive 800s lying around during the winter and the fact the 800 can stretch its legs to far flung holiday destinations all year round if it had to. The days of a 500 hour a year low cost pilot could be a thing of the past. That wont help the hourly rate debate....

Especially as accountants run most airlines these days.
I've done more sectors so far in 2018 than I flew in 2017. Total hours are steadily increasing year on year.

[Jet2_320]

Fastidious bob I don't think you find many HR departments posting on PPRuNe, they do read it but I don't think they actively take part in posting information. Jet2 are a great company to work for with regards to the day to day operation. They still have small bases where everybody knows each other. So more often then not you fly multiple times a month with the same crew and it is true that in the winter there isn't much flying to do. They are also one of the few companies who take direct entry captains (even though it is debatable if this is a good or a bad thing they need them). I hear you ask if it is so great why are people leaving en-mass? It is mainly as has been hinted before to do with the middle and top management, they run a true fear culture resulting in people being afraid to make decisions, at the same time they keep on telling the staff how lucky and grateful they should be to be allowed to work for them. "We are the UK's preferred airline to work for" was a quote from management a few years ago.

Pilots staying are understandably the ones who have their private life near the base and are settled there. At most of the J2 bases there are no other comparable jobs/companies or if there are they might have to start from scratch again at those companies, most won't be able to do so financially. It is those guys who come on PPRuNe defending how great the airline is to work for. It is mainly those guys who are trying to pretend to themselves and others that the grass is very green at J2 while every week colleagues are resigning and moving to the "big" jet jobs (as has been posted before bigger jets is what j2 management are telling the troops, why would somebody indeed leave the UK's preferred airline if it wasn't for that --> see Well Used his/her post #44 in this topic).

[zero/zero]

Sounds idyllic at Ryanair... makes you wonder why they’re wanting to strike!

Where do I sign up?

[smith]

What's best? Integrated or modular?

[whitemonk]

The only Jet2 pilots who think they work hard are the guys/girls who have never worked for any other airline. Maximum of 10 days flying a month for 4 months and between 2 and 5 days flying a month, for the other 8 months. Add another 3 days a month on average if you are on the 737. If you commute then the endless winter Standbys are obviously not for you, but the idea that a steady 5/4 roster is in anyway preferable to a roster where I have, on average, between 20 - 25 days a month NOT flying, is completely bonkers.

[RAFAT]

Whilst I completely agree with your initial sentence whitemonk, I think your stats are a little off, particularly for 737 crew. In that regard Bam Thwok's post is much closer to the true picture this year, Captains have been hammered!

[Quasar2548]

I’m thinking of applying to Jet2. So for all the ex Ryanair Captains currently working for Jet2, which company do you feel is less fatiguing?

[Chesty Morgan]

Since the advent of the ridiculous EASA FTL idiocy no airline should be any more or less fatiguing than the other.

Your fatigue is in in your hands.

[SliabhLuachra]

Since the advent of the ridiculous EASA FTL idiocy no airline should be any more or less fatiguing than the other.

Your fatigue is in in your hands.

fatigue is a myth, ask MOL.

[jagema]

To go back on topic and therefore ignoring all these Jet2 replies - I'd say keep a close eye on the newly announced Irish and Italian deals and ignore whatever proposals RYR come out with, at least until they are in effect. These upcoming deals should ideally give a clear idea as to what the intentions are going forward

[Globally Challenged]

I’m stuck in the RHS of bizjets (as we only fly 250-300 per year) and live near Luton so looking at TUI, Easy, Ryan and possibly Wizz as I need a stable roster and ideally chance of upgrading in the next couple of years.

I have 2800 hours.

Is LTN a likely base on joining Ryanair, what can I expect to earn (I’m used to a large flat rated salary rather than sector pay etc), and how long am I looking at before getting the chance to move to LHS?

Cheers

[Luke258]

I’m stuck in the RHS of bizjets (as we only fly 250-300 per year) and live near Luton so looking at TUI, Easy, Ryan and possibly Wizz as I need a stable roster and ideally chance of upgrading in the next couple of years.

I have 2800 hours.

Is LTN a likely base on joining Ryanair, what can I expect to earn (I’m used to a large flat rated salary rather than sector pay etc), and how long am I looking at before getting the chance to move to LHS?

Cheers
You won't have a large flat rated salary with Ryanair for now and presumably the nearby future (correct me if I'm wrong but it should be around 25k). Sector pay and "productivity" is what makes your salary halfway decent.

[EIFFS]

Penny is a long from dropping me thinks, flying with ex pilot recently diverted from LBA ended up in LPL, allegedly told to make his own way home at his own expenses,

[Callsign Kilo]

Sorry, back to the above arguement, however as I’ve worked for both airlines I feel qualified to add my tuppance worth. I left FR close to 4 years ago and joined LS as a DEC. I’ll attempt to add my perspective to both when addressing similar areas/issues.

1. I left FR primarily because I was based at a location that I didn’t want to be in and there was no clear end in sight. As publicised, there is no seniority list in FR (similar to Jet2). This is all well and good when it comes down to opportunities as each airline states that positions are available based upon merit and qualification. Relating to bases, Jet2 do have a list which pilots are selected from i.a.w the date that they request transfer (alongside their rank). This is visible for all to see at any one time.

In opposition, the only ‘list’ that FR had was one that management had access to. Base transfers were applied in a random manner and, from my experience, didn’t apply one iota of fairness. There was no time frame given and the only opportunity available to check your status was to phone some office in Stansted in the off chance that you could actually speak to someone who were responsible for transfers. Quite often, again with my experience, you were fobbed off and told to call back in a few months - that’s if you actually managed to speak to anyone in the first place. I will add that as a FO and as a Captain I never operated from my first choice base when in FR.

The process may have changed since I left however the base transfer policy is much more transparent in Jet2. I have yet to meet someone who has not been based where they need to be within their first 6-12 months. I’m not saying this is the universal rule however the airline seem very aware that it is a pointless exercise having people based away from their homelife for a prolonged period of time. In FR, they didn’t seem to care too much and only put emphasis upon it when attrition rates soared or when the requirement for DECs became priority.

2. Rosters. The fixed roster pattern in FR remains their golden goose. If you’re at your base of choice then they’re excellent. Week by week, they rotated early to lates and they were (again my experience from 4 years ago) exceptionally well managed with little to no changes. I flew 900 hours a year and even with ‘commuting’ I never felt fatigued. On that point, should you chose to ‘commute’ (in a lot of cases pilots have zero choice in this matter) then the roster definitely isn’t 5/4 regardless of what the airline states. That being said, roster management was excellent in FR.

Unfortunately I wouldn’t claim the same with regards to Jet2. As known, the pattern isn’t fixed. No big deal really (if you are based where you want to be) however there are too many issues that need addressing in this area to mention here alone. Fatigue can become an issue however in my opinion the airline does have quite a grown up approach to this through their FMS. There’s still quite a way to go here (roster management) especially as the majority of flying is compressed over a 5 to 6 month period. The winter’s remain quiet/quieter however the flying program is definitely getting busier in the low season. That being said, it’s nowhere close to FR’s overall winter schedule. With rostering, I do feel it is an area that Jet2 wish to address however the company’s success & expansion has blocked progress imo. I don’t foresee fixed rostering being an option in Jet2, certainly not in the summer. Again, my own outlook here.

3. Leave - in my time in FR this was atrocious however, reading from the above posts, it appears to have improved which is obviously fantastic. In Jet2 it is managed fairly and reasonably transparently. The problem is that summer or ‘peak season’ leave is restricted for line pilots (being a holiday airline). That being said careful manipulation of the leave system at the opportune time can allow for 10-14 consecutive leave days in summer for those that fly the line (i’m including LTC in this bracket as I understand they receive slightly greater entitlement). I can’t comment on FR now however when I was there the process was laughable. Has it consistently changed for the better? I genuinely hope so.

Package - in my experience, it’s superior in Jet2. Proper contracts, no pseudo employment bs, no paying tax here, paying NI there, no offsetting this and that because some guy in an accountancy firm in Dublin says it’s fine, no looking over your shoulder for the Revenue or HMRC at any time. Additionally Jet2 pay for everything, within reason, without excuse. Sounds silly but hotels, transport, uniform, medicals, sim sessions, airside passes, parking, pension, income protection cover and most recently medical care are all added universally. When I say ‘silly’ FR pilots will know exactly what I’m on about! I will add that staff travel (only available to ‘permanent’ staff) was much better in Ryanair. BTW I’m not talking about the FR ‘jump-seating’ policy here. Nuff said ;-)

Culture - both very safe outfits with very open training and reporting systems in my experience. Operationally, both are extremely ‘just’ & fair on the basis that you are both honest & forthcoming (as an employer should rightfully expect you to be). Overall Jet2 are much much easier to deal with, so to speak. There’s a lot more openness. In FR I always had the sense of intrepidation. Not with every department, but a general opinion that things could change with the stroke of a pen, and with very short notice! I observed some horrendous horror stories. The term ‘divide & conquer’ was also something that I heard a lot within my peers at FR.

With union recognition, maybe things will change for the better? I really hope so. However with the current upper management structure remaining in place, unfortunately I feel that this is unlikely.

In conclusion, I hope I’ve provided a fair & balanced synopsis. Both airlines have their strengths. For me, Jet2 wins it - but that’s me. They aren’t without their faults and they’d be first to admit this, however I haven’t regretted the move. I have friends in FR that would say the same there.

[gliderone]

As an ex-FR skipper and relatively new joiner to J2 I can confirm the assessment given in the above post is fair and correct.

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

Callsign Kilo seems to have managed to convey what I was trying to say based on the anecdotes that I have heard from the numbers coming from FR to Jet2.

[jonesyinthesky]

You won't have a large flat rated salary with Ryanair for now and presumably the nearby future (correct me if I'm wrong but it should be around 25k). Sector pay and "productivity" is what makes your salary halfway decent.

i doubt you will have any chance of LTN, im from Milton Keynes and closest i got at RYR was STN, which i believe is open along with SEN.

If you are an FO then any UK base really should be ok.

Wizz could be an option at LTN?

[jonesyinthesky]

Callsign Kilo seems to have managed to convey what I was trying to say based on the anecdotes that I have heard from the numbers coming from FR to Jet2.

As ex FR who likes to offer a balanced view, i would correct the comments above re tax etc, they only really offer permanent direct contracts in UK to DE and it's a local UK contract you have paying UK tax and social insurance, it looks like the unions are pushing local contracts from what the whatsapp groups are saying, this was case in Italy last week. I didn't like the fact i had to take 1 month off in a row but i think one of the things on the table in UK is 4 blocks of 5 days and a seniority list to give leave in the summer on a rotational basis. Pal at Jet2 said there are a number of FO's applying to FR as their training capacity is really limited and i think FR took a lot of their SFIs, he said only 3 per month were coming through on command.