New York Super Base Cancelled

[unitedabx]

The concept of a New York Super Base has been cancelled after a 12 month feasibilty study commissioned by the former DFO AT. This was confirmed at a meeting of the CMP Team last week when they said no new base scenarios were being planned but the programme would support current basings until their natural demise.

[sjimmy]

Some NA crews where waiting for this,
Expect to see more people leaving coming 3-6 months

[cxorcist]

Makes sense. With more flying going to the A350 over time, the aircraft type would be difficult to determine. EWR is already Airbus and IAD will be. It’s hard to imagine that some JFK flying (maybe BOS too) isn’t headed that way as well. Then, the 777-9 comes in a few years. Who knows what that will do? So, I wouldn’t set up a base there either. There are hardly any Americans left in CX anyways, and those that have stayed are quite busy filing grievances and suing the Company every chance they get. I think the US base will wither on the vine, as will Canada.

[Apple Tree Yard]

From a very knowledgeable source: if anything several bases will be closed, and almost certainly they have no intention of opening more slots. Meanwhile, airlines around the world are hiring, and many of your colleagues are taking advantage of getting themselves on a new seniority list, and most importantly, getting themselves and their families home. This place is finished.

[GTC58]

Actually, what Is coming is a commuting roster for those who wish to live in their home country. Some of the details I have heard are 8 consecutive G days at home with a travel day before and after. ARAPA or HKPA has to be forfeit with no way to get it back. Travel provided by CX, class of travel to be determined. Accommodation in Hong Kong provided by CX. No allowance while in Hong Kong as this is still the official base of employment. Contract will be performance based with a low hourly guarantee.

[mngmt mole]

Haha. Time to WIN 👍

[DropKnee]

Makes sense. With more flying going to the A350 over time, the aircraft type would be difficult to determine. EWR is already Airbus and IAD will be. It’s hard to imagine that some JFK flying (maybe BOS too) isn’t headed that way as well. Then, the 777-9 comes in a few years. Who knows what that will do? So, I wouldn’t set up a base there either. There are hardly any Americans left in CX anyways, and those that have stayed are quite busy filing grievances and suing the Company every chance they get. I think the US base will wither on the vine, as will Canada.
Americans don’t put up with ugly managers breaking the law/contract. Maybe if you HKG pilots had bigger balls. The whole situation would have been better. The day that 49 pilots were sacked and you all stood by ended CX as a career airline for pilots.
I am for one satisfied that the company has finally admitted to what we all know to be true. The bases are done.

[Apple Tree Yard]

So let's reflect; how many pilots here in HK were enticed during the interview with the eventual promise of a "basing"....? Let's see, oh,...EVERYBODY. Just more lies, disappointment and deception by our morally vacuous management. Is anyone surprised? Make your plans to leave because believe me, very soon you will all wish you had.

[Farman Biplane]

Actually ATY, the majority of pilots in CX now were hired as “locals” so they were more than happy to spend eternity in HK by agreeing to local terms.
The minority remaining on “expat” contracts are the only ones to be truly affected by the withering of the bases.

DropKnee is spot on about the end of CX as a good deal the moment we didn’t walk out after the 49ers.

As for the commuting rumour, it will be far from acceptable financially if there is no “comprehensive double taxation agreement” in place in your new commuting country of residence (bad luck again Aussies) HK is not yet China when it comes to tax agreements!

[bm330]

FP

The biggest reason all three senior recruitment managers left was they were tired of lying to the kids coming through the door - "a few years as an SO, upgrade and then you can bid a base and take your wife home". It's crap. It's been crap for a long time. Sure, when you're 20 something and single, you can put up with anything for a few years but the days of Cathay Pacific as a career are long gone and now they're quickly exiting the stepping stone category too.

[Slasher1]

Standard act of CX--take something away and then try to sell it back to you.

SO

You get a base that's not a base; a 'commuting roster' without the benefit of having housing in HKG OR the protection of really being on a base. And I'll bet they find a way to chisel around the 'commuting roster' with more time on and less time off with the CMP. So you lose the productivity of operating people to and from what would have been a base (by having to effectively deadhead people to HKG and back) while these people also take the commute time out of hide and spend more time on the road and on a string at the behest of the company.

Kinda like a loophole around reverse rostering which would violate the laws of most of the places we base. Be interesting to investigate the legalities of the 'plan.'

I smell yet another scam.

[Apple Tree Yard]

We've all experienced how the company "work stacks" during months that we have leave. Well, you can be certain that EVERY month of your commuting roster will be like a month with leave, so your time working will be brutal, and you will barely be recovered after your 8 days off. I also think they will try it on with economy travel (never mind that most other airlines with commuting contracts fly you in business). Basically, it is another deceptive plan to strip you of your working conditions, your fatigue protections and your ability to return to HK should you so need. Once again, another disgrace in the annals of the Swire mismanagement of the CX pilots.

[pilotasaurus]

What a sad place. Ruined careers with the company always promising bases, commands on bases, etc, Cat D-ing great people as punishment, while upgrading questionable pilots and characters. If you think putting in hard work will get you a command after being here a decade or more guess again. Taking away bases or command opportunities of those who are already on one is criminal. As usual, the likes of AT, er al just destroy lives then move on

[Farman Biplane]

Talking of leave. They will reduce the leave entitlement for these lucky commuters as well!

[CX ex]

As an outsider now keeping watch, I could not even begin to imagine commuting to the western countries and flying those rosters. The toll that will take on your health, family and well being is just not worth it.

[Farman Biplane]

Talking of health, they have just magically made it more difficult to be unfit in your commuting country as well! No doubt part of the preparations for this grande lifestyle offer.

[Avinthenews]

The commuting will be so crap that the pilots will negotiate to give up leave so they can add it to their commuting days off. They will still come for that shiny jet and the conditions will continue to degrade.

[mothy1583]

Surely if this is a new contract they are considering offering to current employees of the company, then it should be a negotiated contract. Negotiated by the Union. If they offer it to new joiners, we can't do much about it, but anything that is a change to our current conditions must go through the correct channels or be offered on Crew Direct like Compact Rosters etc. Besides, how do they have the time to cook up (yet more) new contracts when they can't seem to sort out the one we already have?
If you have to give up ARAPA or HKPA, what are you going to do for the remaining 2/3 of the month you have to be in HK? Rents are pretty steep. as many keep pointing out, so that's a big hit to take for the pleasure of paying full tax rates in your home country. Sharing a squat with a few mates was fine in your 20's, maybe we could get the UN in to help set up a tent city on the roundabout next to CX City and allow access to the showers in the locker room. You'd be accepting a situation that makes you worse off than the the current contract and they would probably also refuse to let you claim your kids overseas school fees (if you have that benefit at the moment). If you're that desperate to be back in your home country, there are job opportunities at home that won't end up with you going backwards financially. Besides, CMP is so good at optimising/compacting the flight patterns that you'll get plenty of days off to commute anyway, just give it a few years to work out the bugs and all will be rosy.

[Brokeidiot]

The only thing the CMP is good for is lowering company costs and ensuring the roster is Legal. The decrease in company cost is going to come from the crew. There will be no extra time off thanks to the JCR that got voted in we will all get 8 days off a month that’s it. Yet we say the company is stupid.

[Farman Biplane]

It will not materialise anyway.
This “commuting roster” rumour was started by the company a little while ago to replace the “bases” dangling carrot because they have committed to release the Basings review by year end.
We all know that it will state that the bases are over, so they need a new carrot to retain the gullible amongst us.

[Air Profit]

Who hears that little voice inside their head saying "escape now while you still can"...? The best hiring environment in aviation history won't last forever. Every month more of your colleagues are securing their places on the seniority lists of major airlines back home. The door will soon start to close, and you, your families and your career hopes will be trapped with CX, a CX that is demonstrating daily they have no regard for any aspect of a proper career, your health or your financial well-being. It really is time to leave. This is just the latest example as to why.

[cpdude]

So the Korean Air 8 days off plus 3 days of leave and "up to" 3 travel days might become competitive after all.

And that is how low CX has dropped.

[mngmt mole]

You can be certain they will drop lower still

[Kitsune]

Who hears that little voice inside their head saying "escape now while you still can"...? The best hiring environment in aviation history won't last forever. Every month more of your colleagues are securing their places on the seniority lists of major airlines back home. The door will soon start to close, and you, your families and your career hopes will be trapped with CX, a CX that is demonstrating daily they have no regard for any aspect of a proper career, your health or your financial well-being. It really is time to leave. This is just the latest example as to why.

Post after post we hear about how duplicitous and grasping the Swine scum are... but perhaps it’s worth turning the mirror the other way, if only for balance. Repeatedly we read the likes of mgmt mole, Trafalgar, Flexv88 et al decrying CX as venal, abusive, contract breaking liars, sentiments I for one wholeheartedly agree with... but...

If Hong Kong is so poisonous, the contract for your family and kids so onerous, the medical situation so paltry, the environment actually reducing you, your families and your cohorts IQ by recent reports, what sort of person are you to keep putting up with it for the sake of an extra two bits of tinsel on the shoulder, for the sake of money, which you decry so loudly against the Swines? Literally the only time EVER the Company has given in is when, after strike action was voted for and the brown envelopes detailing the requisite action had been distributed, Mike Hardy marched into the HKAOA meeting and gave us everything we asked for and a bit more. Until you stop whining like bitches and actually show some grit and determination they’ll piss on you every time. Our late ‘80s crowd, despite being almost exclusively ex military were willing to put everything on the line for a fair settlement... what the f*uck is the matter with you?

[Brown Nose]

Post after post we hear about how duplicitous and grasping the Swine scum are... but perhaps it’s worth turning the mirror the other way, if only for balance. Repeatedly we read the likes of mgmt mole, Trafalgar, Flexv88 et al decrying CX as venal, abusive, contract breaking liars, sentiments I for one wholeheartedly agree with... but...

If Hong Kong is so poisonous, the contract for your family and kids so onerous, the medical situation so paltry, the environment actually reducing you, your families and your cohorts IQ by recent reports, what sort of person are you to keep putting up with it for the sake of an extra two bits of tinsel on the shoulder, for the sake of money, which you decry so loudly against the Swines? Literally the only time EVER the Company has given in is when, after strike action was voted for and the brown envelopes detailing the requisite action had been distributed, Mike Hardy marched into the HKAOA meeting and gave us everything we asked for and a bit more. Until you stop whining like bitches and actually show some grit and determination they’ll piss on you every time. Our late ‘80s crowd, despite being almost exclusively ex military were willing to put everything on the line for a fair settlement... what the f*uck is the matter with you?

Now there is a voice with some sense!

[SandwichOfficer]

Post after post we hear about how duplicitous and grasping the Swine scum are... but perhaps it’s worth turning the mirror the other way, if only for balance. Repeatedly we read the likes of mgmt mole, Trafalgar, Flexv88 et al decrying CX as venal, abusive, contract breaking liars, sentiments I for one wholeheartedly agree with... but...

If Hong Kong is so poisonous, the contract for your family and kids so onerous, the medical situation so paltry, the environment actually reducing you, your families and your cohorts IQ by recent reports, what sort of person are you to keep putting up with it for the sake of an extra two bits of tinsel on the shoulder, for the sake of money, which you decry so loudly against the Swines? Literally the only time EVER the Company has given in is when, after strike action was voted for and the brown envelopes detailing the requisite action had been distributed, Mike Hardy marched into the HKAOA meeting and gave us everything we asked for and a bit more. Until you stop whining like bitches and actually show some grit and determination they’ll piss on you every time. Our late ‘80s crowd, despite being almost exclusively ex military were willing to put everything on the line for a fair settlement... what the f*uck is the matter with you?

Can this be added to every thread on the Fragrant Harbour forum?

+1 from me

[Trafalgar]

Some valid and sincere comments. However, don't over emphasise the lessons and opinions that are stated. The days of Mike Hardy are well and truly part of the far distant past. Yes, we put up a strong, united stance and both the Swires and our DFO agreed to back down and award a very nice increase in our salary. However, that was when we were a concentrated, undivided group.

Now, in the present day, we have a multitude of bases, local pilots, local competitors, a much younger and less experienced body of aircrew, and most importantly, a management that emotionally, mentally and institutionally LOATHES every single one of us. They have somehow convinced themselves that we (the pilots) are responsible for every single ill that effects CX. They have grown obese and mentally deranged in their personal avarice, and have lost all sight of perspective, morality and fairness.

Mike Hardy was a decent, respected and FAIR DFO, who truly appreciated the efforts and sacrifices of his hard working aircrew. The Swires in London also had the same overall opinion of all of us (I remember when a Captain could call up Swire House in London and attend the weekly board meeting, as an honoured guest). Now, we have a management that is self-centered, venal and utterly devoted in seeing our profession crushed. The ironic thing is that mindless animosity and hatred towards our profession is actually bringing down the very airline they own. It is tragic in every sense of the word. We are a LONG way from the days of Mike Hardy, and every single pilot here needs to realise that the glorious reputation of CX, which was attained by the hard work, sacrifice and devotion of thousands of pilots and their families since the 1940's is no longer. You might as well be working for Hainan Airlines or RyanAir. Ultimately, the only hope of a stable, rewarding and prosperous career is with a legacy carrier back home. Do NOT doubt that.

Those carriers have already worked their way through their "low cost" era, and most have realised that you must treat your employees properly. CX will probably never reach that point. In fact, they will probably spiral down into a business case study of how to ruin a once proud and successful carrier, much like PanAm did. If you are 45 or under, get out NOW. You will bitterly (and I mean that in every sense of the word) regret staying here, and not only ruining your own career, but most likely damaging your family, their health and their hopes. Get out while you have the advantage of the most incredible hiring environment in aviation history. Simple question to all? Do any of you see ONE piece of evidence that CX comprehends our issues, and more importantly, is willing to fix them? No, instead, they come up with even more draconian "sickness" policies and a CMP that will make our lives even more unlivable.

No housing, no suitable medical, no appreciation of the cost of education, no proper pension, nothing. They are driving every single aspect of our careers into the toilet. Leave now while you can still have a good, stable career back home. Stay, and you will most certainly, and bitterly, regret it. Traf.

[Air Profit]

To Traf's point. There are an ever increasing number of high seniority pilots resigning to join other airlines. Considering first world legacy airlines, would you EVER see that? No, you wouldn't. In just the past few months, two friends just left to join another carrier. One had 11 years here (about to start command), and the other was here 20 years (on a base, and would not return to HK for a command, as he didn't want to mess up his family). When you have 31 years of experience leaving to start at the bottom (although both will have commands inside of three years at their new carriers), you know this airline is broken and probably terminally so. Don't be the last one out the door. As Traf said, this airline is spiraling down to destruction. Every (EVERY) sign demonstrates that FACT. Tragic indeed.

[RAT Management]

Holy crap!

[Freehills]

.
. You might as well be working for Hainan Airlines or RyanAir. Ultimately, the only hope of a stable, rewarding and prosperous career is with a legacy carrier back home. Do NOT doubt that.
Traf.

Think you are a bit behind the times. An LCC back home is now a decent alternative

[STW]

Every sngle post in this thread could be a copy and paste from 5 years ago.

[positionalpor]

Please have a read to this file.

[LongTimeInCX]

Pages 55-67 were an especially good read.
A good reminder of how people can be duplicitous.
Interesting mindset, that when times were tough, we were expected to concede the most $$.
For the recent joiners, since those events almost 2 decades ago, note 2 things:
1- A leopard never changes its spots
2 - When times are good, we are compensated at a reduced rate compared with lower paid staff.

Was ever thus.
Will continue to be.
Plan your career accordingly.

[Air Profit]

STW, most of this could be a cut and paste from TWENTY years ago ffs. That is the message that really needs to be understood. CX has placed their pilots in a 20 yr time warp. I encourage everyone to have a good read of the link that Positionalpor has provided. It's worth 20 min of your time to review. In particular, what stood out was the salary/benefit scales provided, for the years 1998/1999. The shocking thing for me is that my salary/package is LESS that it was two decades ago. For the junior people, its only about 35% of what it was two decades ago. That is the real lesson to take away. CX has crippled the value of this career. They also have a defined strategy to basically manipulate, lie and intimidate when they can't get their way easily. There can be no possibility of a settled career in CX. If fact, it will certainly only get worse. It really is time to leave.

[Slasher1]

Excellent deflection Trafalgar. As previously stated, the Swine Group are a perfidious bunch of unconscionable unscrupulous scrotes, but the question was, what sort of person continues to work for such scrotes, suffering the various abuses both to themselves and their families, just for filthy lucre? Perhaps your mirror is face to the wall... Certainly in the late ‘80s with an impending recession following the 87 crash we all had much more to lose than now, in a virtual full employment scenario for pilots for the foreseeable future. As has been asked before, given your last few sentences, why are you still here?








I think you can divide who is (still) here into the following categories:

1. "Refugee" pilots -- those who joined perhaps without knowing what they were really getting into and whose country of residence (or countries where they think they can work) has horrible working conditions for pilots. I think for these folks most were just looking to run and get out and didn't think the follow up out through very much. Or perhaps are parking here while looking and using this as a stepping stone (no doubt HKPA will be adjusted but chiseled to try to keep these folks down the line but they will always work more and more for less and less throughout their career)
2. Freshly minted indigenous pilots -- those fresh out of training and who live in HK. They were looking to become pilots and beam around the world (for whatever reason) and to them the pipeline made sense; most are younger and really have little idea how the airline biz works except they know they are from HK and this is flying and living in HK.
3. Old farts riding it out before pulling the pin and retiring and possibly going to a 'fun' retirement job--if working at all. To this group jumping and starting over at the bottom would involve salary and condition cuts, and wouldn't be worth the time and effort to start at the bottom. But their 'pull the pin' date has probably been accelerated by the goings on. And they will probably be using quite a bit of sick leave while here to get patched up as best as possible before enjoying their retirement years (like it or not, most of the CA's/CBAs/COSs have decent pay protection for people who break and are off work while they are getting fixed up. And quite a few older folks have quite a bit of deferred maintenance they really need to take care of).
4. Folks who want to continue in the airline business and have active applications elsewhere; awaiting the call for where they want to work.
5. Folks who don't understand the "Las Vegas" syndrome and are desperately wishing that things will get better (grasping at straws, rumors, CMP, and everything else despite no rational basis to believe they will as well as a history of being mislead). These are the type of folks who might invest heavily in the Lottery as a retirement scheme.

The airline business pretty much everywhere is seniority driven. So a person essentially makes a capital investment when he or she chooses which career airline to work for and if things deteriorate (and show no definite signs of getting better) every day they might spend there is precious lost seniority somewheres else. It's tough (but necessary) to dump this seniority (at least if someone is to continue in the airline business and not do something else) and sometimes a few folks get trapped in "the gambler's ruin."

The "Las Vegas" syndrome (aka "gambler's ruin") makes casinos rich. It is the belief that one is 'due' for a win after a series of losses despite the fact that the marginal probability remains exactly the same for each roll of the dice or flip of the card. You can predict the probability of a sequence occurring ahead of time (like the probability of the sequence of flipping heads ten times in a row--2 to the tenth power) or look at the probability of a particular sequence occurring after it has happened (same) but this is relatively useless information (unless you are betting on the sequence of someone flipping heads ten times in a row for some reason). The odds stay exactly the same for the NEXT roll which is the important one.

Perhaps equally important when you take a career where the employees had justifiable pride in the institution, and turn it into a "Paycheck Job" (without even that much of a paycheck), you destroy the loyalty and allegiance of your employees to function cohesively as a team. So you can expect a high turnover rate and folks doing the bare minimum. Not a good situation if you want a quality entity. Herb Kelleher's Southwest (or Southwest in the Herb era) was the opposite of this; folks WANTED to go to work because it was fun.