Upgrade in 737 or waiting for 320

[clumsypilot]

Hey All..

This will be my very first post here. I have been reading and learning a lot from you colleagues for a long time. Since I have a specific dilemma I would like to get as many as opinions from you. I have already covered the forum about A320 vs B737 comparisons but my question is a bit different.

I have been flying A320 for 6 years and logged 5000hrs. That is my first aircraft after flight school. Now company is offering me a commander upgrade in B737. Which I find a bit frightening since I have zero experience with boeing. Plus recently they removed the procedure of flying 300 hrs on the right seat before getting the command. So it will be CBT, ground course, simulator from left seat and lifus for 40 sectors.

Normally I am a curious person and like to discover new aircraft. Plus these are the most common airliners in the world so could be nice to know both.

But on the other hand.. I feel like I will be throwing away my experience on Airbus if I move to 737. Also 737 fleet has very ugly roster compared to 320. Both are narrow body and suffer from lots of legs and night flights, but 737 suffering a lot more from short layovers and Africa flights. Many pilots leaving also fleet will growth a lot in following year.

If I decide to wait.. It is "expected" to get a command in 320 not earlier thn 7 months. 320 fleet will also grow, they have confirmed orders(if everything goes as planned). So I will give up 30 pct pay rise for 7 months maybe a year. Also they are kind enough to ask us if we want to join 737 as captain. I m not sure if they can find enough pilots for 737 otherwise they can always force me to move 737 in the following months.

Thx in advance for your opinions..!

[The Range]

I'll wait for the A320 upgrade. For me quality of life is more important

[B2N2]

Take the 737 upgrade.
Never turn down a command.
You’ve spend a lot of time on the Airbus and could go back at any time to the type.
Youre being given a chance to diversify and make yourself more marketable with another type rating.
Suck it up buttercup.
Besides the 737 is a dream to fly.
Take the chance, make the jump.

[rudestuff]

Always take an upgrade, always take a free type. Plus you'll learn to fly a proper airplane 😉

[Nurse2Pilot]

I'm surprised at all the recommendations to take the upgrade on a different aircraft. Is the OP not correct in being cautious as he is being asked to 1) learn a new aircraft and 2) immediately take full responsibility when in the cockpit? If given an upgrade in a type he's been flying for years, I'd see how he'd be stupid not to accept but new type and LHS straight away? Is that not that big of a step as I imagine it to be?

I expected more recommendations of waiting out the 7 months and be a better captain in an aircraft he knows very well.

[Banana Joe]

It's an aircraft like all the others. He has to be able to trim an Airbus too in Direct Law otherwise he wouldn't pass his regular checks. That is the only difference I can think of between Airbus and Boeing, besides the sidestick vs yoke argument.

It's just like a big PA28. Very nice aircraft to hand fly and the AFDS modes are quite easy to understand.

[Luke258]

I'm surprised at all the recommendations to take the upgrade on a different aircraft. Is the OP not correct in being cautious as he is being asked to 1) learn a new aircraft and 2) immediately take full responsibility when in the cockpit? If given an upgrade in a type he's been flying for years, I'd see how he'd be stupid not to accept but new type and LHS straight away? Is that not that big of a step as I imagine it to be?

I expected more recommendations of waiting out the 7 months and be a better captain in an aircraft he knows very well.
Totally agree. We are talking about 7 months. It's not that he has to wait for a couple of years. Stay on the bus. I'm sure you'll find the upgrade process much easier on that aircraft.
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[clumsypilot]

It's an aircraft like all the others. He has to be able to trim an Airbus too in Direct Law otherwise he wouldn't pass his regular checks. That is the only difference I can think of between Airbus and Boeing, besides the sidestick vs yoke argument.

It's just like a big PA28. Very nice aircraft to hand fly and the AFDS modes are quite easy to understand.


I loved my time with PA28 : ) lovely stabile aircraft.. great for cadets.

I have confidence on my handling skills and learnin(or remembering) flying skills. However I am not flying for fun but for money now. I dont say I hate the job, still love visuals, non pre approaches etc. but with the current situation of the commercial avioation it s not easy to fly 90 hours and 45 sectors in a narrow body aircraft. Airbus offers more comfort for pilots plus.. it s what I'm used to. These are my reasons to be confused about the offer.

Thanks for you advice..

[FlightDetent]

Change. No dilemma here.

- Take the command, not the promise of!
- Better job change prospects for your entire career... that alone is a deal-breaker. With your amount, you have a rightful claim of being Airbusized for life.
- The present roster situation is no indication of what is to be expected.
- It is a chance for a change at company expense. New experiences and skills will make you a more of a 360° pilot.
- You would eventually master how to to trim and fly with man THR.
- Don't risk a life of "Shouldn't I had..."

[FlightDetent]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/178x232/bez_n_zvu_7ef1e5a84f32839a61525ea83941b4c019b22940.png

? That escalated quickly.

[Nurse2Pilot]

What the.... how'd that happen? His last post was the one above.

[clumsypilot]

What the.... how'd that happen? His last post was the one above.

My mistake not a biggie.

Thanks for all opinions. I have decided to wait a bit longer. Hope that's the right decision.

[MD80767 Driver]

My mistake not a biggie.

Thanks for all opinions. I have decided to wait a bit longer. Hope that's the right decision.

I think you just made a mistake. But heyy, good luck to ya' I hope they'll keep their promise and upgrade you on A320 soon...but I've been in this game for 30 years and seen that, promises have absolutely no merit. Unless you are in a really good union. NEVER turn down a switch to left seat. Especially not, if it is a switch to a popular type.

[B2N2]

Always take an upgrade, always take a free type. Plus you'll learn to fly a proper airplane 😉

What he said!
And what I said...again!

[Count of Monte Bisto]

How can anyone who has an Airbus rating have the slightest doubt that he should have flown a 737? No one will look back and wish they were on a 737 when they are a captain on a proper aircraft like a 320. The 737 is yesterday’s news.

[Count of Monte Bisto]

Depending on the airline, it is not as simple in most cases as just accepting a new type and collecting your 4 stripes at the front office. There is a course to be passed, and history shows that a pilot who is new to a type and also on a command upgrade is vulnerable. Many years ago I had the choice of whether to fly the 737 or the Airbus and I took the Airbus - a choice I have never once regretted. I work for a fairly large company who once had all 737s and are now all Airbus. We have countless (as in many hundred) ex-737 pilots and I reckon around 1% of them would ever return to the 737 if given the choice. When you speak to guys who have done both, you hear the same comments again and again. The 737 had a better FMS, was better in a gusty crosswind and they hate the fact the thrust levers do not move. There is no doubt that crosswinds take a little time to get used to on the Airbus, but once you have the technique, it is just great. It was put very well to me that if you look at 737NG below the coaming it looks similar to the Airbus - if you look above your head the 737's overhead panel looks like something out of a Second World War German submarine! The cockpit is noisy, cramped, has tiny windows and is just a relic from a bygone age. There is hardly any room in the overhead lockers and it is just a poorer work environment for the cabin crew. It has been a great workhorse, particularly in the States, but its day is done. The technology available to aircraft designers now is so advanced (just look at the wondrous 787) but the 737 missed out on all that because of Southwest Airlines' need to maintain standardisation and common ratings between the Classic and NG. It was an opportunity lost - Boeing are capable of building wonderful aircraft, but their hands were tied on the 737 and it really shows.

[parabellum]

The B737-800 is more like tomorrows news than yesterdays news! Take the command, (if you are not too late), a command on anything is better than the RHS on anything, in the long term. What fleet can you expect to move to after the A320/B737? Big Airbus or Big Boeing?

With 5000 hours on the A320 you will be expected to do a trouble free command course, when going onto the B737 you can reasonably expect some latitude in your handling until you have adjusted and that shouldn't take you long, you will be pleasantly surprised!

[Lapon]

Is it your first command? If so I would certainly stay on the bus.
It's only several months longer to wait and by the sounds of it the more desirable fleet.
If I had flown both types I'm sure I would have more to add, but to throw in a new type rating, procedures, route structure AND an initial command all for the sake of not waiting until the new year? No thanks. If I was honest with myself in that scenario I would also want to assess the training environment where you are to avoid scrubbing out completely while taking too much on. There was a reason they used to have the 300 hour right seat requirement, and I'm sure that hasn't been cancelled to do a revolution in the training syllabus.
Command certainly trumps FO long term, but we are talking a matter of months.

[reverserunlocked]

The cautious man would sit tight on the Bus. Although if you can fly the 737 then a 777 or 787 would present a fairly straightforward upgrade, should you want to consider the future.

[clumsypilot]

Is it your first command? If so I would certainly stay on the bus.
It's only several months longer to wait and by the sounds of it the more desirable fleet.
If I had flown both types I'm sure I would have more to add, but to throw in a new type rating, procedures, route structure AND an initial command all for the sake of not waiting until the new year? No thanks. If I was honest with myself in that scenario I would also want to assess the training environment where you are to avoid scrubbing out completely while taking too much on. There was a reason they used to have the 300 hour right seat requirement, and I'm sure that hasn't been cancelled to do a revolution in the training syllabus.
Command certainly trumps FO long term, but we are talking a matter of months.

As you can imagine 300hrs issue has been cancelled cause they need 737 captains urgently. But for the money they pay and conditions they offer it is no way that they can hire them. So they want to push us over there asap.

Yes it s my first command and I dont want to start from begining of a new aircraft while getting used to the left seat. So I made my mind to wait. By that time I also applied EK just because long term wide body command dream. Plus I fly 90hrs regularly with 40-50 legs each month with 320 and getting paid like 3500 usd monthly. I am so close to left seat but money is not the best and keep diminishing because of lovely local currency. I will travel to Dubai, see the conditions myself and if I pass every step thn I will decide what to do.

@reverserunlocked

My company doesnt mind if you are from 737 or 320. They ask you if you want 777/787 or 330/350. Which is also strange ha. But for me a upgrade to widebody as a captain wont be sooner thn 10yrs. That s why I apply EK. Maybe I am just rushing things but with the roster I have each month, that is not what I signed for.

@parabellum

It is not too late. Since I am on somewhere around the top of seniority list, they will keep asking every month up until they are desperate thn they will force me. If I decide to stay or fail from EK and the airbus list wont show up for longer, I might accept 737. But for me it is more like a "decision". Once I got my brain set up I dont want to look back cause it simply effects my performance.

@count of monte

I naturally have many friends in 737, captains and fo s. Funny thing most of them say stay away and wait for 320. The old guys and people from 320 say you should accept : ) Training wont be easy since everyone in that fleet are crazy tired and dealing with fatigue. I wont be suprised that I will always be the "other guy" in 737 who rushed there just for the upgrade. As I said I have confidence on my skills but just not willing to go through hell and I bet that s what they are preparing for 320 guys over there : )

To be honest maybe I am just being lazy, or somehow I believe I deserve the left seat of 320 after flying it without problem for 5000hrs. Obviously that is a delusion and no one gives you what you deserve, you have to take it. If I want left seat now I should work hard, get 737 and deal with even worse rosters. If I want it in 320 I have to be pateince.

Thanks again for all opinions.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

I also applied EK just because long term wide body command dream. Plus I fly 90hrs regularly with 40-50 legs each month with 320 and getting paid like 3500 usd monthly. I am so close to left seat but money is not the best

And always get your command in your home country airline before going expat, especially if you are only months from upgrade. Your expat upgrade could take 10+ years, and if you leave before like many do, you can’t go home as DEC. A job in the sandpit will wait 18-24 months. And you should be comparing salary of captain at home to sandpit FO.

[BBJ-Captain]

i have many 1000's hours on both types of aircraft. I prefer the boeing. It's a proper aircraft that flies like a proper aircraft all of the time and not just when 'the computer says no' and hands you an out of shape computer.
But honestly, once you have command hours they can never be taken back out of your log book. You are marketable worldwide on the 2 most popular types of aircraft currently in operation. Plus if they are offering you a LHS now, who knows what might happen to the companies economic standpoint in 6 months time.

After 6 years in the RHS, if you don't think you are capable of running a structured day in accordance with SOP and company procedures and know what it's like to do the job, then I would seriously consider your career progression to this point. You should be a more than compitant SFO and should be comparing your mental model to the LHS pilot on all aspects of the operation. Take each standard day as if you were the captain and ask the LHS if you can take the lead to see if your thought processes are the same as his. This is the only way you can start to reduce the workload associated with chancing seat. You should know how to fly a sector, manage a crew, and manage a turn around before even getting near LHS. Then all you have to get used to is the change in type and using your right hand instead of left for playing with the MCP/FCU.

I can completely understand your trepidation about changing type and seat at the same time, but believe me that changing operator SOP and type (regardless of DEC or DEFO) is a lot harder then type and seat within the same operator.

Good luck, but my advise is as above, ALWAYS take a command when offered!

[clumsypilot]

Thanks all for many good feedbacks from different backgrounds !

[liftman]

I did the error not to take command when offered, I thought was too early ( barely 1500 jet hours)....Result: expelled from industry years ago when crisis hit, still struggling to be back.

Plenty of first officer with/without experience, not so many captains around or willing to move change company etc.

Based on my experience and what I still see never ever refuse a LHS upgrade

[Dan_Brown]

I would suggest you take the command. There is a window for a smooth transition. Spend too long in the RHS, it is possible to loose the "command mentality" if that makes sense.

I am a true believer in crews, that are experienced, being checked out on both seats. Your leg, take the LHS. Not very common these days is it? It makes the upgrade a lot easier and therefore smoother.

[clumsypilot]

I would like to inform all who shared their opinions with me. Begining of 2019 I started my 737 command course. It took 2 months including ground course and 15 sims(incl. rnav etops lvo).

So far I am very happy with my decision, first of all airplane is so much fun to fly! I realized how much I missed trimming and setting thrust etc on approach. Also it s nice to learn another way of automation. I am now able to compare two major airline jets and see the positives and negatives of each. Obviously I miss ecam : ) especailly during sims.

During the process I met lot of new ppl and did learn a lot from them. Now I am flying many new destinations which is also great in terms of experience. Also I was afraid that I would be losing my experience by changing type for command but it is not the case. I still keep the basic skills of aviation that I got during airbus plus I get new things everyday.

All in all I am happy with my decision but to be honest it wasnt easy. Actually I am not sure if I would do it again if I knew that I had to study that much : ) Now I am more confident about new airplanes and changing types. I realized first type rating is the hardest thn it gets easier. In my case the second was also hard since I was also changing seats. I feel more like a pilot thn an airbus pilot now : )

safe flights to all..

[hans brinker]

I would like to inform all who shared their opinions with me. Begining of 2019 I started my 737 command course. It took 2 months including ground course and 15 sims(incl. rnav etops lvo).

So far I am very happy with my decision, first of all airplane is so much fun to fly! I realized how much I missed trimming and setting thrust etc on approach. Also it s nice to learn another way of automation. I am now able to compare two major airline jets and see the positives and negatives of each. Obviously I miss ecam : ) especailly during sims.

During the process I met lot of new ppl and did learn a lot from them. Now I am flying many new destinations which is also great in terms of experience. Also I was afraid that I would be losing my experience by changing type for command but it is not the case. I still keep the basic skills of aviation that I got during airbus plus I get new things everyday.

All in all I am happy with my decision but to be honest it wasnt easy. Actually I am not sure if I would do it again if I knew that I had to study that much : ) Now I am more confident about new airplanes and changing types. I realized first type rating is the hardest thn it gets easier. In my case the second was also hard since I was also changing seats. I feel more like a pilot thn an airbus pilot now : )

safe flights to all..


Good for you, I would definitely agree

[FlightDetent]

Congratulations, your first ever command decision! It must have been a leap of faith as you seemed to have an opposite view originally, but you chose to do something for your life and seize the tree with more fruits on it.

Thank you for coming back here. What was the deal breaker?

[flyzed]

I would like to inform all who shared their opinions with me. Begining of 2019 I started my 737 command course. It took 2 months including ground course and 15 sims(incl. rnav etops lvo).

So far I am very happy with my decision, first of all airplane is so much fun to fly! I realized how much I missed trimming and setting thrust etc on approach. Also it s nice to learn another way of automation. I am now able to compare two major airline jets and see the positives and negatives of each. Obviously I miss ecam : ) especailly during sims.

During the process I met lot of new ppl and did learn a lot from them. Now I am flying many new destinations which is also great in terms of experience. Also I was afraid that I would be losing my experience by changing type for command but it is not the case. I still keep the basic skills of aviation that I got during airbus plus I get new things everyday.

All in all I am happy with my decision but to be honest it wasnt easy. Actually I am not sure if I would do it again if I knew that I had to study that much : ) Now I am more confident about new airplanes and changing types. I realized first type rating is the hardest thn it gets easier. In my case the second was also hard since I was also changing seats. I feel more like a pilot thn an airbus pilot now : )

safe flights to all..

Bravo Clum, You’re a honest person, professional pilot and an fantastic Captain. Best always