Scraping the barrel

[BlunderBus]

Interesting to see we now hire candidates who can’t get through the low cost carrier interview process!
What has this ‘legacy flagship carrier’ become? The job of last resort? Other Hk companies failing pilot candidates and we just scoop them up.
i weep for the future.

[Gnadenburg]

Or on the other hand, we hire well educated, aptitude tested, local kids and rob them of proper training with an MPL.

The proving ground has been KA for a number of years. We can be replaced with the 5 year pilot come captain. Didn't we send someone from the KA training dept over your way to help recently? The mindset here has been experience can be compensated by "world class training".

[Arfur Dent]

The Directors, including our fellow pilot, the new DFO, are all on fabulous COS and bonus packages. They live in beautiful houses with Company cars and a simple instruction. SAVE $1BILLION HKD ON AIRCREW COSTS!!!
Getting Rid of experience and hiring much cheaper "button pushers" is an idea that appeals to them, even though they may be sitting in First Class (again) when aforementioned 'pilots' run out of ideas.

[Kitsune]

Mate, when you’ve got a gurning idiot like Kempis as DFO you’re through the bottom of the barrel by a loooong way...

[Starbear]

Mate, when you’ve got a gurning idiot like Kempis as DFO you’re through the bottom of the barrel by a loooong way...

Can't really say he's wrong.

[unitedabx]

Flew with a very nice lad yesterday ( not PC but you get my drift ). Brand new SO.
Why did you join CX I asked ?
"I couldn't get into Qantas or Jetsar but I have a HKID" was his answer.

[JMock]

and so we take on a HK Airlines recent applicant reject due sim failure I’ve been reliably informed (and so apparently has BlunderBus)

we live in interesting times

[BlunderBus]

One and the same

[BlunderBus]

A recent s/o was an accountant and his father applied for him!! He’s here until he gets a real job!
True talk

[Progress Wanchai]

Management would rather spend a large sum of money on recruiting and training ab initio students recruited off the street than spend a small sum retaining and attracting experienced crew.

Follow the money.

[Oasis]

‘Follow the money’

.. going down the drain?

[mngmt mole]

Follow the money

....to Management bonuses...

[mngmt mole]

Follow the money

....to the EFB debacle....

[main_dog]

Follow the money

... to the hedging fiasco...

[AQIS Boigu]

Follow the money

....to the basings fiasco....(which started with the 49ers)

[Air Profit]

Follow the money.

....to the ASL fiasco...

[CX ex]

Silver bullet freighters

[Apple Tree Yard]

Follow the money.

....numerous cabin seating disasters... (and our new 10 abreast econ)

[Apple Tree Yard]

Follow the money.

....the worlds most expensive cargo terminal...

[AQIS Boigu]

Follow the money

...to the same A50 J class config as Ethiopian Airlines...

[cxorcist]

Follow the money...

To CargoLux flying CX’s production -400Fs.

[Air Profit]

Follow the money.

...to having to redo dozens of PC's due to missing medicals.... (a proper airline would have a system to ensure such a thing couldn't happen)

[Dragon Pacific]

Follow the money......

..... to the Cargo Cartel fines.

[unitedabx]

Follow the money ......

Introduction of the 800F

[broadband circuit]

Follow the money ......

To having to re-do dozens of PCs due to the A340 sim not being signed off (a proper airline would have a system to ensure such a thing couldn't happen)

[sjimmy]

Follow the money.


B-HUL and B-HUO now flying for Sky Gates cargo.
A company that started only because they could get their hands on these 2 jets in 2016.
​​​​​​Always good to create direct competition.

the classic
No money in freight.

[controlledrest]

The company doesn't give a crap about experience. The cheaper the better.

One day a CX aeroplane will crash. Blame will be placed on the pilots (anyone expect HKG CAD to have the slightest clue as to crash investigation).

The real cause will be the management who set the policy and the Check and Trainers who implement it. Foot stamping and letter writing only makes the C&Ts more culpable.

[Farman Biplane]

Heaven forbid the precious C+T’s do something proactive about it!

If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

What will it take to trigger some meaningful actions? I always wonder how comfortable they feel (if they feel anything at all about it) signing licences for candidates that have only just met the CAD requirements.

[unitedabx]

Heaven forbid the precious C+T’s do something proactive about it!

If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

What will it take to trigger some meaningful actions? I always wonder how comfortable they feel (if they feel anything at all about it) signing licences for candidates that have only just met the CAD requirements.



I bet you haven't the balls to say that at your next renewal !

Ever heard the expression "all talk and no trousers ?"

[raven11]

Right, it’s the check and trainers fault. It’s been my sad experience that those with the least LMF castigate others for not measuring up.

Knowing who the bad guys are is the first step in any confrontation. Unity is key. Circular firing squads are not helpful.

We must focus on presenting a united front while an unsustainable resignation rate is brought to bear.

[Farman Biplane]

Typical response.
Why don’t we just keep doing what we have been doing for the last 25yrs then, because that has really advanced our cause hasn’t it?
if we keep checking and training the lower cost replacements it will NEVER end.
That is why I am not a C+T at this mob.

[unitedabx]

Typical response.
Why don’t we just keep doing what we have been doing for the last 25yrs then, because that has really advanced our cause hasn’t it?
if we keep checking and training the lower cost replacements it will NEVER end.
That is why I am not a C+T at this mob.


I notice you haven't answered my question. So I guess you are all talk and no trousers.

[Farman Biplane]

<United, I have heard that phrase before, it was applied to the C+T group after they wrote the Trainers letter and failed to follow up on it!

[DropKnee]

Unitedabx
You need to pick up a history book. Captains and more so C&T are the leaders of the pilot group. What do you expect a SO to do to bring about a conclusion to negotiations? The impression you give me is that you are hoping those who depart CX will fix the problem for you.
The most successful contract ever negotiated in the airline world was the UA contract of 2000. Why, because the C&T stopped doing training and checking except for PC and line checks. The company was back at the table faster that you could eat a free cockpit sandwich.
Stop with the unity crap. No bold move by the above groups. No action will take place. Simple as that.
As is typical with CX pilots. We all want someone else to do the dirty work. We get what we deserve.

[unitedabx]

I'm not in C&T. I was 10 years ago but left when I took a base. As far as I am aware the HKAOA has not asked for current C&T's to resign. There is a training upgrade ban but many members have ignored this and taken up positions. If the association directed it's members to resign with the strict understanding that once hostilities had ended everyone of the C&T team would be re-instated first then I am sure most would follow. Trouble is there is no such "direction" and certainly no guarantee that line captains would obey the re-instatement rules.
The pilot body is not united. Even the AOA members aren't in unison so why pick on the C&T's ?

[SloppyJoe]

Because they have the biggest stick and the least to lose.

[unitedabx]

<United, I have heard that phrase before, it was applied to the C+T group after they wrote the Trainers letter and failed to follow up on it!

Did you write a letter and sign it ?
No you didn't. Truthfully, if you did state your opinions openly at your next PC the C&T'er would have more respect for you than all your snivelling on this site.
Grow a pair.

[unitedabx]

Unitedabx
You need to pick up a history book. Captains and more so C&T are the leaders of the pilot group. What do you expect a SO to do to bring about a conclusion to negotiations? The impression you give me is that you are hoping those who depart CX will fix the problem for you.
The most successful contract ever negotiated in the airline world was the UA contract of 2000. Why, because the C&T stopped doing training and checking except for PC and line checks. The company was back at the table faster that you could eat a free cockpit sandwich.
Stop with the unity crap. No bold move by the above groups. No action will take place. Simple as that.
As is typical with CX pilots. We all want someone else to do the dirty work. We get what we deserve.

You are quoting a different avaition world and by the way looked what happened to UA.
You are also very naieve. Captains and C&T'ers are NOT the leaders of the pilot group. In theory the President of the HKAOA is and in the past C&T'ers followed the guidance given by the AOA. There is no guidance these days so the C&T'ers do their own thing. In 2005, 98% of the C&T'ers were members of the AOA. Today, it is less than 10%.
I can tell from your posts that you haven't been in this industry very long and certainly not in Hong Kong. Open your eyes.

[Clear_sky]

”but many members have ignored this and taken up positions.”

Maybe two..........

[Farman Biplane]

I am sure it will have great effect whinging to a Star Chamber SSI that is doing my next PC!
Yet another part of the problem....
As you seem to be personalising this debate, I would suggest that as you are based, you may be somewhat removed from the realities of the majority of HK based aircrew that are all local hires.
No problem with my current pair thank you, they function quite well.

[DropKnee]

You are quoting a different avaition world and by the way looked what happened to UA.
You are also very naieve. Captains and C&T'ers are NOT the leaders of the pilot group. In theory the President of the HKAOA is and in the past C&T'ers followed the guidance given by the AOA. There is no guidance these days so the C&T'ers do their own thing. In 2005, 98% of the C&T'ers were members of the AOA. Today, it is less than 10%.
I can tell from your posts that you haven't been in this industry very long and certainly not in Hong Kong. Open your eyes.

I have been in this industry for 29 years. If your waiting for the AOA to give you directions, you will be very disappointed. Each individual has to decide for themselves.
As far as UA is concerned, stick to the effectiveness of their job action. It was a success and done so without any guidance from ALPA.
If you all are going to just sit back and expect the other guy to do the heavy lifting for you. Than the CX pilots will soon find that they are the lowest paid WB pilots in the world. That is based on cost of living etc.

[Air Profit]

I have been in this industry for 29 years. If your waiting for the AOA to give you directions, you will be very disappointed. Each individual has to decide for themselves.
As far as UA is concerned, stick to the effectiveness of their job action. It was a success and done so without any guidance from ALPA.
If you all are going to just sit back and expect the other guy to do the heavy lifting for you. Than the CX pilots will soon find that they are the lowest paid WB pilots in the world. That is based on cost of living etc.

Hmmm, RH seems to want to convince us all that we are grossly overpaid. Quite the joke isn't it? My Delta captain friend who is making $80K usd per month at the moment would be quite bemused by our CEO's comments. What a debacle this airline has become.

[BlunderBus]

Hmmm, RH seems to want to convince us all that we are grossly overpaid. Quite the joke isn't it? My Delta captain friend who is making $80K usd per month at the moment would be quite bemused by our CEO's comments. What a debacle this airline has become.

80K USD/month???? utter bull****

[mngmt mole]

Ok, if you say so....

[Slasher1]

I’d use some caution in trying to compare raw salary numbers across different countries or even different parts of the same country.

What you need to make in order to have a decent standard of living depends completely on where you live. Even in the US it might take a couple of hundred of thousand dollars to live in SFO at an equivalent standard of living to someone in La Crosse, WI who is making a quarter of that.

Which is is why many commute.

If you base and live in HKG that number is way huge.

Insanely enough — but not surprisingly — CX has been about as hostile as it could be toward commuters (and well below the privileges of many other majors—and even some regionals ) — as well as basings — which is the one aspect that enables some folks to keep working here. You can’t make this stuff up.

Stuff up ..... I guess that about says it all.

[Bingo24]

“The typical United Airlines Airline Pilot salary is $171,280. Airline Pilot salaries at United Airlines can range from $25,400 - $350,000. This estimate is based upon 20 United Airlines Airline Pilot salary report(s) provided by employees or estimated based upon statistical methods.9 Jul 2018”

top of scale goes goes a very long way in the US

[Apple Tree Yard]

Checked in with a Delta friend this morning. Yes, some (not many to be fair, only very senior C and T) are making $80k some months. In fact, the number has been even higher in some cases. Regardless, does anyone here at CX doubt that we are now grossly underpaid, at ALL levels? Didn't think so.

This airline has stripped the value from our careers. This current negotiation will be the ONLY opportunity to rectify this. If we fail (and I mean 'we'), there will probably never be as good an opportunity. If you are planning on leaving, then please don't vote in such a way that you hurt those who will remain. Every one of us needs to appreciate that the only way to go through life is with integrity, loyalty and commitment.

We are far better than our adversaries in management, both professionally and personally. Don't let them destroy not only your career, but your integrity, self-worth and character. This IS the great battle of our time, and everyone needs to support the common good. We can't afford to lose this.

There will never be another opportunity to re-establish our worth, professional status and hopes for our careers and families. Is it not perhaps time we finally held a strike vote, and gave our association the nuclear option that has long been needed? Stand strong.

(ps, even 737 captains at Southwest are making $40K/mo usd in many cases).

[ZeroOneTwo]

The company doesn't give a crap about experience. The cheaper the better.

One day a CX aeroplane will crash. Blame will be placed on the pilots (anyone expect HKG CAD to have the slightest clue as to crash investigation).

The real cause will be the management who set the policy and the Check and Trainers who implement it. Foot stamping and letter writing only makes the C&Ts more culpable.

The rumour is the HKCAD accident investigation function is being removed and a new Air Accident Investigation Authorty with dedicated accident investigators employed, separated from HKCAD and run under the Transport and Housing Bureau.

Set up is this year.

[Amstrong]

Stumbled into this on YT : www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPJjw68RI2w go at 2'30'' and I was worried with R/T ability for a wide-body F/O. I can feel the pain for the captains having to endure such situations.

[Airbubba]

80K USD/month???? utter bull****

Not really, it's a temporary thing on the A350 due to work rules and pilots displaced for training sectors who can then pick up more overtime sectors to get displaced on. You get paid for a lot of flying you don't do with these legacy work rules. Delta pilots are in a (real) union unlike flight attendants and most other company employees.

From the sister Airline Pilot Central forums an American Airlines pilot comments:

You guys need to pull your head out of your proverbial a$s prior to section 6. Go ask a Delta A350 pilot. They have FOs crediting over 260 hours of pay credit for the month. Green slip. Green slip with conflict. Do the math. Apparently they have some captains that broke 100k in a month.https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2602353-post32.html

Details of the Deltoid bidding techniques in this APC thread:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/113811-900k-350-captains.html

U.S. mainline pilots are raking in the dough these days after the airline bankruptcies of a decade ago. :ok:

[CX ex]

Work rules. So important.

Gotta love em.

For those who don't know you have no idea what you're missing.

[Air Profit]

You just hit the nail on the head CXex: almost none of the current CX pilots have worked for a real airline with REAL work rules. They for the most part have no idea what they are talking about. In fact, they don't even have a datum point in their experience to relate just how bad CX's work rules really are. That is the great tragedy of this airline: it has no base of experience inside of itself to advocate for proper working conditions because there is no understanding of what needs to be done to fix it. If CX pilots understood how much control US pilots have over their lives they would be in tears. Even pilots on a regional roster flying 737's manage 15+ days off a month, with easy commuting and flexible bidding that suits the pilot, not the company.

[Air Profit]

...."large sum of money"....? umm....thought we were talking about CX here Frank? (the "total abuse" bit was accurate however!)

[filejw]

80K USD/month???? utter bull****
Well I'v been retired 18 months (DAL) but I did have a couple of $ 60,000 months in my last few years. Involved being available for short emergency call outs, trips that had canceled and then I flew over those same dates and got paid for both.Sometimes the flown trip at double time. We had other Premium also I just forget what it all was. In my last full year I made $525,000. FYI I enjoyed all 38 years but don't miss it, its somebody else's turn.

[Air Profit]

Geez Frank, lighten up. And it's not about me, i'll be gone soon enough. It IS about the 25-45yr olds that are at risk of wasting a good part of their careers chasing something that left long ago. An objective review of the past 20 years should tell anyone that there can never be stability or financial security working for the Swires. If you want an airline "career", then choose anything other than CX.

[BlunderBus]

Straight out of deltas contract $370 an hour for the most senior widebody captains. Blocked for 75 a month.
exceptionally with penalties and double rates I can believe $60 k in a rare month but $80k ?!!!
Utter crap ... and that what my delta pals say too.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Blunder, you are making a fool of yourself (and not sure why you are so worked up about the subject?). Certain Delta Captains are making that amount, and more. You can believe it or not, but I know it to be fact. Find a different topic, as your absurd enmity against the subject is just plain odd.

[filejw]

Straight out of deltas contract $370 an hour for the most senior widebody captains. Blocked for 75 a month.
exceptionally with penalties and double rates I can believe $60 k in a rare month but $80k ?!!!
Utter crap ... and that what my delta pals say too.

Mr Blunder,
I decided to ask a friend that is still working the answer is yes to $ 80000. Here is how . Delta pilots have the ability to drop their full schedule and then pickup new trips . A few of the more contract savvy individuals on the A350 have done so and then picked up open double time trips filling the month that way. . The system is not without risk as you could end up with zero flying in your month but the A350 is a new aircraft at DAL and training is so backed up extra unfilled trips are available every day .

[Slasher1]

Mr Blunder,
I decided to ask a friend that is still working the answer is yes to $ 80000. Here is how . Delta pilots have the ability to drop their full schedule and then pickup new trips . A few of the more contract savvy individuals on the A350 have done so and then picked up open double time trips filling the month that way. . The system is not without risk as you could end up with zero flying in your month but the A350 is a new aircraft at DAL and training is so backed up extra unfilled trips are available every day .

Yes. But with the caveat that SOMEONE picks up the trips consistent with the work rules written. This can result in high pay while also driving high efficiency. Some scam aspects are possible, but coming to a solution is all a part of good negotiations.

Southwest is kinda similar kinda not but the key for all of them is an owned roster with rigs, paid reserve, and the ability to swap trips autonomously. And REAL work rules. Two way street.

Could be similar with a full up CMP with all modules. But it won’t be. Because the company would rather impose and hose. So it will see the natural result of min productivity at max cost. In a real system you have thousands of pilots helping solve your rostering problems in an incentive based environment with benefit to all. What CX will do is akin to a centrally planned economy which has failed every time it’s been attempted.

[controlledrest]

...... the key for all of them is an owned roster with rigs, paid reserve, and the ability to swap trips autonomously. And REAL work rules. Two way street.

Could be similar with a full up CMP with all modules. But it won’t be. Because the company would rather impose and hose. So it will see the natural result of min productivity at max cost. In a real system you have thousands of pilots helping solve your rostering problems in an incentive based environment with benefit to all. What CX will do is akin to a centrally planned economy which has failed every time it’s been attempted.

100% correct. A full implementation with real rules is the best way to roster. It is how successful airlines do it. CX will only use their version as an automated pineapple insertion machine without any lube. CX know best.

[mngmt mole]

100% correct. A full implementation with real rules is the best way to roster. It is how successful airlines do it. CX will only use their version as an automated pineapple insertion machine without any lube. CX know best.

then they will wonder where all their pilots have gone, why the incident rate is out of control and why they cant operate their schedule anymore.

[BlunderBus]

It never fails to make me smile how quickly people here rise to become offensive and launch a personal attack. I’m not wound up over anything but have an aversion to bull****. I live in the USA and meet almost daily over dinner and drinks with 3 delta 12 year widebody captains... my neighbours in fact. I put your $80,000 a month statement to them and my posted response are their words not mine :) I looked at their pay scales, contracts and rostering practices as we have discussed it in detail many times since our crap CMP was cooked up. Regardless of who gets paid what you’re not going to get closer to the truth by being offensive so in closing kiss my hairy ass 😘
oh yeah that was for ATY :)) Awaiting a pithy response
Its my thread and I’m not sharing so there.😜

[Apple Tree Yard]

BB. Stick with your story, and your animated reaction to the statement. Regardless of the "number", it is fair to say that most pilots at US majors make more than most pilots at CX. And many CX pilots know Delta pilots, live in the US, and have as much if not more info than you. Pithy enough for you?

[BlunderBus]

Not bad but I was expecting a little more abuse :)) we DO agree on the comparative salary remarks ..I’m actually embarrassed to say who I work for now when asked. Never thought good old cucumber sandwich could be driven to such an ignominious end. I’m sure the assholes responsible over the years will spend their twilight years slapping each other on their collective backs over G and T’s while punting the poodle off the balcony.

[Air Profit]

On those comments at least, we completely agree. :ok: (love the poodle comment btw!)

[Apple Tree Yard]

Yes, cannot argue at all with that synopsis. And I agree with AP, poodle comment best of day !!!

[DropKnee]

Yes. But with the caveat that SOMEONE picks up the trips consistent with the work rules written. This can result in high pay while also driving high efficiency. Some scam aspects are possible, but coming to a solution is all a part of good negotiations.

Southwest is kinda similar kinda not but the key for all of them is an owned roster with rigs, paid reserve, and the ability to swap trips autonomously. And REAL work rules. Two way street.

Could be similar with a full up CMP with all modules. But it won’t be. Because the company would rather impose and hose. So it will see the natural result of min productivity at max cost. In a real system you have thousands of pilots helping solve your rostering problems in an incentive based environment with benefit to all. What CX will do is akin to a centrally planned economy which has failed every time it’s been attempted.

That was the best explanation to the CX working theory I have read. Central planning means misery for all.

[positionalpor]

Perhaps Mr. Campy needs to have a look at the Transasia ARR accident. Why did it happen and meditate on it.

[BlunderBus]

We budgeted for a ‘hull’ loss

[BlunderBus]

Just like we budgeted for 300 resignations

[Busbuoy]

Be wary using the expression "we've budgeted for a hull loss" without due regard. Being prepared for any foreseeable eventuality, despite every reasonable effort to prevent it, is only prudent.
If you can get a Swire manager to respond to a question such as:
"What will happen if the undeniable reduction in the levels of experience and expertise on Cathay flight decks that your flight crew personnel policies are bringing about results in a hull loss?" with an answer like "we've budgeted for a hull loss" then you have a story.

[unitedabx]

Just got word that after my last Sydney trip where both the FO and SO attended their final selection phase at Qantas Headquarters ( conveniently 500m close the Stamford Plaza Hotel where the CX overnight ) They have both been accepted and are now in the holding pool. Congratulations to both women and good luck with your careers.

Yes both very capable women pilots, exactly who CX are targeting to recruit and keep. But both choosing to move.

[BlunderBus]

I can say on EVERY flight now at least one in four is going. No bs...that’s a lot more than the 3% they tell us are leaving.
Sure they’ll attract the very young inexperienced crew but what’s the point if they circulate out again when they get a few hours and are marketable??

[wishiwasupthere]

The hold file at QF is out to 18 months now. A lot can happen in that time.

[BlunderBus]

Jetstar oz and nz
air nz
virgin
all looking
The money in HK just isn’t enough anymore. The nett income is worse after monthly costs than almost anywhere. And with conditions changing every year along with a lying company who constantly attack staff there just isn’t any stability at all. Ask anyone here if they’re better off than when they joined.. it’s a near vertical reduction in contracts.
When you look back in 10 years don’t say you weren’t warned.

[Slasher1]

The goal is obviously to attempt to feed as many people as possible in under POS 18 while retaining enough people such that the place can still operate in the mean time. Using POS 18 as a baseline and essentially having frozen or steadily declining conditions for the more experienced people it needs (under current COS) until it builds up enough qualified staffing under the new terms. IF this can be done. For experienced/qualified folks here (older folks riding it out until retirement, younger to mid-age folks who will be continuing in the industry looking for a new job they haven't found yet, and younger folks too dumb to realize they need to be looking for a new job), they'll face contract attrition via inflation and whatever impositions can be gotten away with while still staving off a mass exodus. Or at least a bigger mass exodus than they can lie about to their bosses and get away with.

[Farman Biplane]

The QF hold file may be out to 18mths for some, but with the QF stated and vigorously supported diversity and inclusion policies, some prospective talent will be hired before others!

[unitedabx]

Ineffective in contract negotiations. Would it be better if the HKAOA changed it's focus and became an active employment agency for CX pilots looking to leave. Office staff could assist with applications and CV writing/printing and this new agency could offer airlines entire crews as required. Much better use of the monthly dues than the farce of negotiating when hopelessly out matched.

[Avinthenews]

Ineffective in contract negotiations. Would it be better if the HKAOA changed it's focus and became an active employment agency for CX pilots looking to leave. Office staff could assist with applications and CV writing/printing and this new agency could offer airlines entire crews as required. Much better use of the monthly dues than the farce of negotiating when hopelessly out matched.


But that wouldn't be in good faith 😂 and that would make Cathay unhappy the union wouldn't dare do that to cx

[unitedabx]

But that wouldn't be in good faith 😂 and that would make Cathay unhappy the union wouldn't dare do that to cx

Too true. Spineless GC and gutless Chairman. Time for change. Time for a new union.

[Dilbert68]

Ineffective in contract negotiations. Would it be better if the HKAOA changed it's focus and became an active employment agency for CX pilots looking to leave. Office staff could assist with applications and CV writing/printing and this new agency could offer airlines entire crews as required. Much better use of the monthly dues than the farce of negotiating when hopelessly out matched.

That is the best idea I have heard in a long time. Of course the HKAOA would never do this as the success of their efforts would lead to a reduction of members and their corresponding dues. How can you afford to pay the fat salaries to CB et al then?

[Slasher1]

Ineffective in contract negotiations. Would it be better if the HKAOA changed it's focus and became an active employment agency for CX pilots looking to leave. Office staff could assist with applications and CV writing/printing and this new agency could offer airlines entire crews as required. Much better use of the monthly dues than the farce of negotiating when hopelessly out matched.

Capital idea. More of an employee welfare role for those at CX (including taking legal action to enforce what it can worldwide when there's been a breach) and job search assistance (and accredited provider--just like many other pilot contract job search entities we're always getting emails from) for those getting out. And VERY active in the latter (perhaps providing packages to seeking airlines as you mentioned as well as legal/immigration assistance in going to countries seeking pilots and how to get there). Since this is going to be a training ground like a regional seems fitting--AND may have the knock on effect of CX becoming competitive (probably not) as they see supply dwindle and really see what 'market forces' means. In fact, this may be one of the best ways TO provide advocacy for members at this point.

Not sure what kind of restrictions might be on TUs in this matter--but this could probably be worked around by amending the charter.

I do disagree that this would be contrary to the interest of maintaining membership; if you take the company's position (not saying it's accurate) there will be PLENTY of people entering on POS 18 (for whatever reason) who are using this as a court of last resort or stepping stone. Or haven't done their homework, and are looking to go ANYWHERE else after being in HKG for a couple of years. So why not do something useful with the efforts. And it might possibly result in the union getting real clout (we're helping 2000 of your well trained pilots get jobs elsewhere; if you want to compete with their suitors I'd suggest you offer something competitive and binding).

Out matched might be a bit unfair (even if accurate) in that the GC usually reflects the position and beliefs of the membership (at least in who it votes for) -- in reality, ultimately it's the membership who've gotten themselves in this position by the lack of desire to do anything that might be necessary to improve their lot (and allowing different factions to be divided up amongst the group). Folks are still training, folks are still going to work, folks are still upgrading, folks are still helping out when typhoons hit, etc. Just the reality of who comprises the pilot body. And in that there are very primitive labor laws in HKG it really does take some pretty draconian action to accomplish much of anything the company doesn't want to do (vice that of other countries which require negotiations and bargaining).

[unitedabx]

Fabulous analysis from Slasher1.