Nothing in the kitty

[unitedabx]

On Friday I had the pleasure of having my lunch ( tuna and tomato sandwich and ginger ale ) sitting opposite a young woman who has recently joined CX from EK to improve pilot recruitment. She asked if I was a pilot (yes) and what fleet (777). I didn't know CX had 777's was her reply. I thought CX only operated Airbus. No I said that is Cathay Dragon. I reruit for them too was her answer. I bet you are struggling to meet your cadet quotas I asked. Yes she said and asked me for any suggestions. You get what you pay for I said. Up the package being offered and your numbers will improve and then tackle the many other issues to retain the pilots. We can't up the package she said "there isn't any money in the kitty for that". Pity I said because thats what it will take to get numbers rising. By the way why did you leave EK to join CX I asked. Her answer " a better package of course ".

[broadband circuit]

Her answer " a better package of course ".

Thus demonstrating the extreme naivety of the people tasked to fix this mess.....

[Apple Tree Yard]

Also demonstrating the fact that we are faced with either a long, dedicated, committed fight, or leaving for more sane and stable pastures. If you are under 45, not much to debate as to which is probably your better bet. It is obvious that CX is desperately stonewalling in hopes of some economic shock, that they can then use to justify paying nothing. That seems to be their (only) strategy. My two FO's on this weeks long haul were both leaving imminently, so the message has well and truly got through. CX is toast.

[mngmt mole]

Funny, there always seems to be plenty in the kitty for management pay and bonuses. Curious. Seriously, we are being taken for a ride. Every single one of us (and our families as well). They have effectively decided to simply ignore our demands. They realise the airline is cratering from the inside with an uncontrollable resignation rate, but they are pinning their hopes on the economy turning, an airline or two shutting down and voila, problem solved. In sum, the individual pilots that stay at CX are probably going to suffer a very frustrating and unsatisfying career. The current hiring boom will not last forever, and in the meantime many of our colleagues are securing themselves on other seniority lists, and building a buffer beneath them month by month. The time to leave is now. Otherwise, prepare to suffer the inevitable frustration of being trapped for years in this situation.

[AQIS Boigu]

Funny, there always seems to be plenty in the kitty for management pay and bonuses.

and management **** ups...

[motley flight crue]

Well recruitment here at EK is a complete and utter disaster, as is pilot retention. I cannot see what some muppet manager from EK will do to help CX. This makes me laugh.

[SOPS]

That’s what I was thinking, Motley.

[swh]

Well recruitment here at EK is a complete and utter disaster, as is pilot retention. I cannot see what some muppet manager from EK will do to help CX. This makes me laugh.

The common complement made by many at EK the best process is the staff that provide a smooth departure.

[mothy1583]

I would be curious to know if this young woman was recruited on expat terms or some form of HKPA?

At risk of thread drift, did the boffins in Fuel Hedging make the most of the low fuel prices to hedge at $40 so that we can win on fuel costs for the next 4 years? Might put some money in the kitty to improve the lot of people other than the Leaders.

[unitedabx]

I didn't ask her about her terms but the "package" was better than at EK she said.

[Flex88]

Must be a little bit left as someone had to pay for the Unconscious Bias training and the time spent shepherding in the new "Diversity and Inclusion" programs.

Somebody please tell me I'm not dreaming this ???

Read a book by Orwell if you want answers..

[olster]

Interesting to note and not really emphasised is that the new manager from EK was unaware of the actual aircraft types operated by CX. This is the current state of affairs whereby managers are unaware of the technical status of the airline that they work for. Or are not interested.

[The FUB]

Hardly surprising as every cabin crew thinks the 747 retired from cx a couple of years ago. I wounder if the new talent acquisition know our fleet or size.

[stormfury]

I wounder if the new talent acquisition know our fleet or size.Probably not, but you can be certain more than a few aspiring CX pilots got a red mark against their name from the HR clowns when they couldn’t recite it during the interview.

[Sorry Dog]

... It is obvious that CX is desperately stonewalling in hopes of some economic shock, that they can then use to justify paying nothing. That seems to be their (only) strategy. My two FO's on this weeks long haul were both leaving imminently, so the message has well and truly got through. CX is toast.

They are not hoping for that since that would affect revenue and bonuses. Probably has more to do with simple human procrastination to deal with a tough issue.

I do have a question for all those predicting hard times for CX ahead. If you go read a lot of the investor analysis for Cathay you will see very little in the way of talk about industrial relations. Most of the reports I have read usually refer to the hedging, overall costs, HKA competition, Mainland competition, etc. The small amount of mention about employee relations are often in reference to their long-term restructuring program to trim costs (i.e. cut direct labor costs). Obviously it's a different story from the pilots working there. I am very curious what some of you guys think about this discrepancy between those "in the trenches" and the financial analysts that measure or predict company performance.

[Dan Winterland]

A recent interviewee of the new joint process (European low cost Captain, 10K hours, trainer) kept on being asked about the CX contract compliance. Her answer was that it didn't interest her as she had applied to KA. The interviewers couldn't understand why she didn't prefer to work for CX. She didn't get the job.

[mothy1583]

Many years ago, strong rumours abounded of recruiters knocking back guys with C-130 time in favour of applicants with C-152 time because the bigger number would naturally indicate a bigger aircraft and greater experience.
This company has a long and prestigious heritage to maintain, why change now?

[Air Profit]

True story. Back when CX had an another "genius" idea to hive off the freighter network and hire pilots from the street to crew it (ASL). Thing is, there was a bit of a boom in aviation at the time, so anyone out of work was out of work for a reason. Needless to say, questionable individuals with completely clueless recruiters resulted in, shall we say, some "interesting" recruits. Another epic "own goal" from CX management. Seems like they want to relive those days once again.

[Air Profit]

Nothing in the Kitty...? Soon there will be nothing in the cockpit either.

[Sqwak7700]

...financial analysts that measure or predict company performance.

Are these the same geniuses that where giving failing investment firms buy ratings during the last financial crisis? Or are they the same ones that predicted fuel would go up and purchased said hedges?

I think the the world would be a better place with less of these financial analysts and clueless managers.

[spleener]

Nothing in the Kitty City.

[Sorry Dog]

Are these the same geniuses that where giving failing investment firms buy ratings during the last financial crisis? Or are they the same ones that predicted fuel would go up and purchased said hedges?

I think the the world would be a better place with less of these financial analysts and clueless managers.

Quite often your point view is right on about a lot of the industry. Fallible as they may be, executives still care quite a bit abo.ut what the analysts who cover their company are saying. If you could get some of those analysts to make the connection about what is going on in the trenches with you guys.... and that poor industrial relations can lead to things like Eastern Airlines...

[BlunderBus]

I’ll put something in her kitty for her 😜

[Rated De]

On Friday I had the pleasure of having my lunch ( tuna and tomato sandwich and ginger ale ) sitting opposite a young woman who has recently joined CX from EK to improve pilot recruitment. She asked if I was a pilot (yes) and what fleet (777). I didn't know CX had 777's was her reply. I thought CX only operated Airbus. No I said that is Cathay Dragon. I reruit for them too was her answer. I bet you are struggling to meet your cadet quotas I asked. Yes she said and asked me for any suggestions. You get what you pay for I said. Up the package being offered and your numbers will improve and then tackle the many other issues to retain the pilots. We can't up the package she said "there isn't any money in the kitty for that". Pity I said because thats what it will take to get numbers rising. By the way why did you leave EK to join CX I asked. Her answer " a better package of course ".

The sadness is that she saw absolutely no problem or felt the need to mediate her comment.

Right now, down under Qantas has yet another operation designed to circumvent exiting terms and conditions, it is called Network Aviation. It was a few decades ago a charter operator with a C99 and a few other twins.
It is now an A320 operator in Qantas colours no less in YPPH.

At the regular headfest, the HR management asked the operations people about why the 'package' fails to attract sufficient interest and they are always politely reminded that their JQ DHC 8 operation in NZ, Jetconnect and indeed Cobham contracts (of which Qantas own the aircraft) have similar problems: remuneration.

The circularity of their stupidity is simply because for the last three decades, supply of pilots outstripped demand. Therefore HR/IR got lazy and incidentally wealthy stripping salary out of pilot's pocket.
They will do everything, before doing the right thing and restoring remuneration to the point where the skillset, cost and time taken to acquire are adequately compensated. Many circular 'meetings remain...

[unitedabx]

Has anyone else been approached about taking early retirement ?
I was asked informally last week if I would be "interested".
I asked "on what terms?" and was told a package might be in the pipeline.

[OK4Wire]

Without giving too much away, roughly on which page of the seniority list would you be, unitedabx?

[mr did]

Has anyone else been approached about taking early retirement ?
I was asked informally last week if I would be "interested".
I asked "on what terms?" and was told a package might be in the pipeline.

Wind up alert. Critical levels for STCs and you say they are offering redundancy to the group that contains them?

Maybe it's just you unitedabx?

[Shot Nancy]

Some people have been asked, some have not.

[Clear_sky]

Makes No sense! I’ve asked about unpaid leave and told not a chance.

[unitedabx]

Without giving too much away, roughly on which page of the seniority list would you be, unitedabx?
First page, top 20.

[unitedabx]

No it's not just me and I can't accept anything anyway due family issues. BUT two more of my era have been asked ( informally ) the same question. CX did this before and culled about 100 skippers. It makes financial sense and frees up advancement form RHS to LHS and into C&T.
One months pay for every year over 10 years served plus 3 months severance. All tax free and retirement staff travel immediately. If you have 25 years plus in the company and less than 3 years to go it makes perfect sense.

If you are a little younger you might want to take it and move somewhere else to finish your career. The company doesn't want expensive captains anymore. They save on housing, schooling, medical, pension for a payout they would have made anyway.

I only wish I was in a position to take it.

For some it is a golden ticlket out and I am told it will be offered soon.

[OK4Wire]

Sounds similar to the SVS (or whatever it was called) in the mid to late 90s - can't remember how many took it then.

Top 20, eh? Only 4 are based, so I guess the rest would indeed be expensive, dollar-wise. And that is just typical, getting rid of the experience that this airline flying club so desperately needs.

...the cost of everything, and the value of nothing.

[Bangaluru]

Makes No sense! I’ve asked about unpaid leave and told not a chance.

You can’t get unpaid leave because the crew managers are honestly clueless and incompetent so the default response is, “CANNOT”

Shedding the top of the seniority list is from further up as a strategic decision that has nothing to do with operations.

[unitedabx]

With the airline contracting, it makes perfect sense to offer redundancy to the most expensive crew it employs. This would not include based pilots only HKG since the savings are in housing, schooling, pension and medical. The new GMA is no stranger to this concept. In the cull of last summer the packages offered to the expats was "generous". Long term it makes sense and is common practice in the corporate world. Watch this space.

[Tupoleveler]

Or mayyyybe it's just a good rumour to spread to keep senior guys around a little longer...

[Freehills]

With the airline contracting, it makes perfect sense to offer redundancy to the most expensive crew it employs. This would not include based pilots only HKG since the savings are in housing, schooling, pension and medical. The new GMA is no stranger to this concept. In the cull of last summer the packages offered to the expats was "generous". Long term it makes sense and is common practice in the corporate world. Watch this space.

Agree - wouldn’t be at all surprised. Plus if it hastens the end of “legacy” contracts savings in admin.

[Air Profit]

They can put any redundancy package where the sun doesn't shine. Not for sale at any Swire price. I am enjoying costing them the maximum I can, each and every month.

[unitedabx]

Totally understand your stance AirProfit BUT if you were offered 3 years pay (tax free) and had 5 years to serve before retirement which would you take ?Do the maths and you are thousands ahead if you take the deal plus out of this outfit 2 years early. This offer IF made will be to every captain over 50. For some it will make no sense. To others it might be the incentive to leave early and for many it will be the golden handshake they will never get if they plod on to 55/65.
Would you really give up the chance of some tax free cash up front simply to be able to continue sticking it to a company that couldn't give a sh++t what you do.

[cannot]

1 month for every year served over 10 . So if you have been here for 30 years that’s 20 months plus 3 for redundancy
that’s less than 2 years .
however if they increased it to 3 years tax free I think a lot of people would grab it, then go and work for another carrier

[mngmt mole]

I'm with Air Profit. If it's not a generous offer, there is no chance of accepting it. I'd rather cost the maximum possible for my remaining years. The day's of being bought off cheaply by this mob are over.

[fire wall]

Anyone considering selling their services for what is the price of a 13th month per year of service AFTER year 10 , a recompense we were entitled to receive regardless but did not on many occasions, must have @#$ing rocks in their head.
Pilots must be the dumbest financial decision makers that I have ever met.
Business 101, NEVER accept the first offer.

[Freehills]

? if it is a SVS they are not selling their services, they are resigning from CX before retirement age, and getting a sweetener to do so. For many that are sick of the BS, and thinking of leaving anyway, why not? Just think of it as CX deciding that with so many SO and FO leaving, they want to balance things out by getting senior captains to leave as well

[ANTIPHOLUS]

It's a **** offer, then again so was the one in 94/95. And guys still took it. And then they found themselves short of Captains, one of the contributing factors to the formation of that festering sore, ASL.

[Air Profit]

Well, one thing we can all be certain of; no matter what CX eventually ends up doing, you can be 100% certain that our genius management will :mad: it up. Well and truly.

[Dragon Pacific]

Presumably they are talking basic pay only. With school fees, mortgage paid, medical, overtime, etc etc I get paid nearly twice my basic. So wouldn't be a great offer but still handy if you were thinking of going anyway.

[unitedabx]

To be clear. Under HKG law you qualify for 1 month per total years service with one employer after you have completed 10 years. SO, 30 years with CX gets you 30 x 1 month plus the 3 month severence. It is basic salary with no add ons like schooling, housing and the like. Agreed it is not the best scenario but for many it would pay off that house back home and set the kids up for their entire education. The plus side is you get out of CX with a tax free lumpsum and can either retire early or start again somewhere else with some cash in hand.
Not for everyone. Maybe it would only suit a few but it is better than the fate that awaits us all when this company stops trading.

The idea has come from Merlin himself and endorsed by the new GMA. It only applies to captains.

[Babbalito]

Anyone at KA been asked?

[raven11]

Unitedabx

Does that law apply to Cathay pilots? I haven’t heard of anyone getting any lump sum payment upon leaving the Company?

[CyberT]

The amount is capped at 390k

[Foxdeux]

On Friday I had the pleasure of having my lunch ( tuna and tomato sandwich and ginger ale ) sitting opposite a young woman who has recently joined CX from EK to improve pilot recruitment. She asked if I was a pilot (yes) and what fleet (777). I didn't know CX had 777's was her reply. I thought CX only operated Airbus. No I said that is Cathay Dragon. I reruit for them too was her answer. I bet you are struggling to meet your cadet quotas I asked. Yes she said and asked me for any suggestions. You get what you pay for I said. Up the package being offered and your numbers will improve and then tackle the many other issues to retain the pilots. We can't up the package she said "there isn't any money in the kitty for that". Pity I said because thats what it will take to get numbers rising. By the way why did you leave EK to join CX I asked. Her answer " a better package of course ".


Sometimes I really wonder how unqualified people can get these types of jobs. Didn't know CX operated 777's...............really? It's the backbone of their fleet you dumb b!tch.

[unitedabx]

Of course CX pilots qualify. It is HKG law and one of the few labour laws that covers everyone. There is no cap. When CX offered this before in the 90's some guys left with millions. I have done some quick calculations and in my own case ( and I stress I am not in a position to accept it even if I wanted to ) I would receive HKD 5.48m. Last summer some of our sim instructors got close to HKD 2m. I don't know where CyberT gets the 390K figure from. Severance pay is between employer and employee. The one month per years served is the minimum.

[Apple Tree Yard]

CX can offer whatever deal they want, including putting a cap on it. As AirProfit said, whatever our management end up doing, they will be certain to :mad: it up.

[Kitsune]

As long as they f*ck it up in your favour... what’s the downside?

[AB335]

Of course CX pilots qualify. It is HKG law and one of the few labour laws that covers everyone. There is no cap. When CX offered this before in the 90's some guys left with millions. I have done some quick calculations and in my own case ( and I stress I am not in a position to accept it even if I wanted to ) I would receive HKD 5.48m. Last summer some of our sim instructors got close to HKD 2m. I don't know where CyberT gets the 390K figure from. Severance pay is between employer and employee. The one month per years served is the minimum.

Unfortunately the EO was changed in 2003 and severance payment or long service payment is capped at $390K.

Attached the Labour Department's Q&A for severance payment and long service payment

[mngmt mole]

Only death or resignation gets you away from this miserable outfit.

[Slasher1]

I can just hear those who built the place, and invested their lives in it lamenting......

Once I built an airline
Made it run
Made it race against time
Once I built an airline
Now it's done

Brother, can you spare a dime ?

[Farman Biplane]

Slasher, I don’t think the Swires are short of a dime!

[crwkunt roll]

Only death or resignation gets you away from this miserable outfit.
Read the excellent account of the resignation process in the forums, they even make that a nightmare.

[unitedabx]

The HKG legislation quoted elsewhere is for serverance or long term payment. It does not apply to voluntary redundancy. Are you really suggesting that all the bankers in HKG when they get the push are limited to HKD390K ? Last summer when 600 office staff were let go, some recived payments in excess of HKD2M.

[mngmt mole]

The $390 k is not applicable in this case. Regardless, CX will make a mockery of the concept.

[VR-HFX]

Sir Adrian has left the building for the last time.

[unitedabx]

I started this thread and will now try to end it because I am fed up with the fake news being pumped down eveyone's throat. I emailed my former next door neighbour who was one of the lucky/unlucky ones to be let go last summer in the 600 culling. Now, happily enjoying a new carrer his severance from CX after 17 years was HKD2.28M plus immediate retired status staff travel. And yes tax free.
So, the 390K cap is a myth, always was.

[krismiler]

I didn't know CX had 777's was her reply.

Classic, any pilot going for an airline interview who couldn't answer a basic "have you done your homework ?" question, such as what's in our fleet, would likely be culled at the first stage.

[mngmt mole]

That really does sum it up. Another example of how the only group who is truly accountable in this company are the pilots. Any other group seems to be able to operate without any accountability, competence or integrity. Just another sign that points to escaping this winged Titanic as soon as possible. It will be fascinating to look back in another 10 or so years and see what wreckage is left, and sadly, who went down with the ship.

[GMEDX]

Anyone at KA been asked?
The ruse they are trying in KA is the RRO. Reduced roster option. Only 10yr CNs eligible. Essentially month on month off with only two weeks leave. Paid the month you work and all expat allowances halved, no housing. Flog you with the CMP in the month that you work.
It is oversubscribed by those that are cashed up and ready to go but not ready to finally cut the apron strings.

[AnAmusedReader]

Unitedabx, was it a severance payment or his PF?

[unitedabx]

Severance. A former pilot, he took his PF years ago.

[Steve the Pirate]

Severance. A former pilot, he took his PF years ago.

So are you saying your friend left CX and Hong Kong years ago with his PF and then rejoined (presumably as an SI?) and worked for a subsequent 17 years?

STP

[unitedabx]

So are you saying your friend left CX and Hong Kong years ago with his PF and then rejoined (presumably as an SI?) and worked for a subsequent 17 years?

STP

Yes. Lost his medical early. Tried farming back home but it didn't suit. Returned as an SI.