Someone stole a Q400 from Seattle?

[TBSC]

Unconfirmed reports about a Q400 (possibly N423QX) being stolen from SEA by a single person (company pilot?). Followed and eventually shot down (???) by F-15s. Hope the latter part will turn out to be a rumor.

[logansi]

Seems it has now crashed or been shot down, F16's were scrambled

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCtfYF3ITGE

[c_coder]

Some (not very authoritative) posts about it:

https://twitter.com/TwitterMoments/status/1028124530181464065

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Commuter-plane-stolen-from-SeaTac-airport-/5-2136566/

https://heavy.com/news/2018/08/seatac-plane-stolen-hijacked-grounded-seattle/

[tiger9999187]

https://twitter.com/mipo777/status/1028132449421873152

https://twitter.com/Katreichelart/status/1028137685532065798?s=09

videos of the Q400 and fighter

[averow]

We are on vacay in University Place WA (south of SEATAC) and heard and saw a pair of F-15s streak overhead at high speed headed North from our location at 2015 local time. I don’t have any other confirmed info to relate right now.

[tiger9999187]

http://garchives1.broadcastify.com/15227/20180810/201808102255-590200-15227.mp3 ATC recording. Describes himself as having 'a few screws loose' (2:30)

[armchairpilot94116]

https://www.seattlepi.com/seattlenews/article/Report-Horizon-Airline-employee-hijacked-plane-13148484.php

plane down perhaps

[regional_flyer]

Twitter user jwsthomson has posted some excerpts of his ATC interactions (can't post a link)

Admits he "has a few screws loose" and didn't realize the aircraft would chew through fuel as quickly as it did.

[Skyray]

Crashed on Ketron island. 29-year old suicidal male from Piece County, @Piercesheriff is posting info as it comes in on Twitter.

F-15s still patrolling in case this is anything besides a single guy, even though it obviously is.

[st7860]

· BREAKING -- POSSIBLE STOLEN PLANE CRASHES SOUTH OF SEATTLE --

Seattle's airport says: "An airline employee conducted an unauthorized takeoff without passengers at Sea-Tac; aircraft has crashed in south Puget Sound. Normal operations at Sea-Tac Airport have resumed.

Pierce County Sheriff's office says: "Stolen horizon airplane crashed into Ketron island. Preliminary info is that a mechanic from unknown airlines stole plane. Was doing stunts in air or lack of flying skills caused crash into Island."

More at CTV News at 11:30 p.m.

[tdracer]

Ketron Island is sparsely populated with minimal first responders. They are reportedly dispatching a ferry loaded with first responders to take them to Ketron Island to address a resultant fire from the crash and do an investigation.
Culprit is reported to be an Alaska Air employee - who told ATC that he didn't know until today that he had a 'screw loose'.
SeaTac reportedly shut down until at least 11pm PDT (one hour from now)

[Airbubba]

From https://twitter.com/piercesheriff:

Two military F 15 chased plane but was not involved in crash9:47 PM - 10 Aug 2018













Male is confirmed a suicidal male. Acted alone he is 29 year old Pierce county residence . We are working back ground on him now.

9:54 PM - 10 Aug 2018


Follow this thread for official info. This is not a terrorist incident. Confirmed info .. this is a single suicide male. We know who he is. No others involved.9:56 PM - 10 Aug 2018













I am working with FBI and Military. All info sent out here is confirmed. Sheriff Paul Pastor will be contact at Steilacoom dock.10:01 PM - 10 Aug 2018









Told F 15s made it within a few minutes of theft of plane. Pilots kept plane out of harms way and people on ground safe. Yay air force . They may not admit for a few days. But is true..


10:15 PM - 10 Aug 2018









Confirming sonic boom was Air Force and not explosion as originally reported.


10:44 PM - 10 Aug 2018

[st7860]

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/final-radio-call-from-stolen-horizon-air-q400/ final radio call from the plane

[tdracer]

SeaTac reportedly to be currently resuming normal operation, but with obvious large delays due to ~2 hour ground shutdown.

[Intruder]

KIRO 7 News showing takeoffs out of SEA now (2225 PDT).

Further interviews indicate culprit was a Horizon mechanic or "ground service agent". Took it after he and 1 other pushed it to the cargo area for overnight parking.

[SnowFella]

Just saw a facebook video clip and he really did loop that thing! :eek:
https://www.facebook.com/jon.tornquist/videos/10212530577644892/UzpfSTE0NzQ1MDg0Mjk1MjMyMjI6MTg2OTQ3ODg0NjY5Mjg0Mw/

[Airbubba]

https://twitter.com/Sabian404/status/1028137639747051521

[Skyray]

The clips are insane. Not sure if he did a full loop, but he did do a split S and pull out about 100 feet or so above the water.

[PAXfips]

Some livestream also covering the looping in replay here and there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-P92L5UU7c

[HundredPercentPlease]

What an incredibly sad story.

Just think what his friends and family are going through. This is akin to jumping off an impossibly high cliff, but having your words that you said, as you fell to your death, transmitted around the world.

Chat to your friends - or if you have none, then a peer support program. Even if it's from another airline, because yours has none. You are not alone.
https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/August-2016/Peer-intervention

[Tommy Gavin]

This is the end of the relaxed security we still have when flying domestic within the states... shoes and belts off from now on!

[Lookleft]

Its a pity that people are commenting on how "cool" this looked and how great he was in doing those manouevres. Its not cool and he wasn't doing anything great.

[22k]

That poor man and his family.

That radio call was tragic and to hear his last words was gut wrenching.

Please guys, treat this with the respect it deserves and have some empathy when speaking about this individual.

Yes it was dangerous but it was clear he intended to hurt no one and thank god he didn’t. Now his family have to live with this for the rest of their lives.

My heart goes out to the family and friends of this poor man.

[BluSdUp]

I have to say that every day that goes I get more interested in Human Performance and Limitations.
This time : Take away the ultimate filter and the envelope is expanded.

Unfortunately suicide is to a certain degree " contagious" so lets hope this does not give anyone any ideas!

As fare as stopping this in security, impossible as he was said to be a mechanic.
And he did not put any pilot to shame .
Any aircraft can be rolled and most of them looped. But a loop is mad in most transport cat aircraft.
To bad he did not get any help with his Demons.
A pitty with the aircraft.
Sad relay.
But could not be helped , as we live in a free society.
May his soul find rest!

Cpt B

[Propellerpilot]

I am also asking myself - what will the impending repercussions on this incident be... more control, clamp down, TSA etc... ?
Glad nobody else got directly hurt by this stunt.

[HighWind]

Does the aircraft insurance cover this theft ?
The estate after the perpetrator can for sure not cover this..
Where I come from simple theft (eg. cars) are not covered by insurance, but it's covered if tools have been used to steal the object (burglary), or if someone have been trying to stop the thief (robbery).

[compressor stall]

Hats off to that ATC guy- trying to talk him and keep him engaged.

[bunk exceeder]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/789x908/edd8e9eb_04b6_465b_adf2_779be0e55c14_e105459e68fcd9134380207 deb9471370ae7ba8e.jpeg
Here’s a Cessna type throttle lock. So your plane doesn’t get nicked while it’s parked. They can cost as little, and be as simple, as this one for $13.95: SKYLOCK - AIRCRAFT THROTTLE LOCK from Aircraft Spruce (http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/skylock.php) I would think that the fuel control switches might be an easy place to fit a “thing” over, preventing unauthorised or unintended use. Crew or Mx arrive, take it off, end of checklist. And judging by the $13.95 model, they wouldn’t have to cost $50,000 apiece.

[atakacs]

Hats off to that ATC guy- trying to talk him and keep him engaged.
indeed!
Also on a practical point of view did he take off from the runway? I'm sure that he did not obtain clearance so might actually be a bit messy...
In any case he cleary knew something of flying and the Q400 to get as far as he did...

[TWT]

bunk exceeder, the guy involved would have had a key to the throttle lock as he would have been authorised.

There's no 100% surefire way to stop this sort of incident occurring.

[edi_local]

bunk exceeder, the guy involved would have had a key to the throttle lock as he would have been authorised.

There's no 100% surefire way to stop this sort of incident occurring.

Forgive my ignorance, but surely there was no flight plan filed and that specific aircraft was not due to depart, so at some point an unauthorised plane was taxiing around SEA and it wasn't noticed.

Surely had someone realised that plane wasn't supposed to be moving at that time then it could have been intercepted a lot earlier.

[atakacs]

Surely had someone realised that plane wasn't supposed to be moving at that time then it could have been intercepted a lot earlier.
Thus my question as of how he took of.
I guess with a lightly loaded Q400 he could have done it from the taxiway or even parking...

[Exup]

Do not know that companies or the airports procedures but maybe they allow maintenance taxi authority to position aircraft to remote stands for overnight parking, maintenance etc, so could have seemed quite normal until the last minute.

[bunk exceeder]

The Alaska COO on TV said that Rich, who took the Q400, was a customer service agent. Not Mx. So as a CSA, would not have a key. As we leave them unlocked and they don’t need a key, perhaps a bit of tin over the “GO” switches might help prevent this again? Lots of planes spend the night at regional airports that are not pulled up to jetways.

[AreOut]

Its a pity that people are commenting on how "cool" this looked and how great he was in doing those manouevres. Its not cool and he wasn't doing anything great.

the barrel roll itself did look cool, regardless of situation which was everything but cool

[TWT]

Thanks for the clarification bunk exceeder

[bunk exceeder]

They’re saying “Ground Service Agent” to be precise,

[meadowrun]

Distance: PDX-SEA - 112nm. Nothing closer to scramble?

Horizon Airlines-Ground Service Agent.POSITION INFORMATIONAs a Ground Service Agent, you play a critical role to keep our flights running smoothly and safely. Whatever the weather, you'll direct aircraft for takeoff, gate approach, load and unload luggage, and operate equipment to de-ice planes in the winter. Your shift schedule will vary, so you'll need to be flexible with your time. And, as a full-time employee, you'll have full benefits, travel privileges for you and your loved ones, and be eligible for a great bonus program. If you're physically strong, enjoy working outdoors, have an impeccable work ethic, and love to travel, this could be the best job you've ever had, maybe even a lifelong career.

KEY RESPONSIBILITIES

Baggage and cargo handling
Aircraft marshaling
Aircraft deicing
Work outdoors in all types of weather conditions while remaining focused on safely performing duties
Other duties as assigned

[ETOPS]

Not the first time this type of incident has happened.

Botswana in 1999 https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19991011-0

[flash8]

Immensely sad really given the ATC recordings, and I for one appreciated Alaska/Horizon immediately paying condolences to the friends and family rather than trying to spin this somehow, a but of humanity from an airline.

[greenfields]

I am also asking myself - what will the impending repercussions on this incident be... more control, clamp down, TSA etc... ?
Glad nobody else got directly hurt by this stunt.

I suspect that Human Factors - in the form of Psychological testing and Psych Evaluations - will now get even greater play. I don't believe it will be too hard for regulatory authorities to argue that yearly Psychological Testing and Interviews are now the way forward (For pilots, engineers, safety involved personnel etc). What a pity - the true psychopaths are the Airline Managers that are producing the terms and conditions that are leading to individuals having the mental health issues.

[bunk exceeder]

https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-start-a-Boeing-747

I had a 12 year old student who would finish a lesson and then start asking proper questions about how to enter stuff into his 747 FMC that he flew every night.

[airtrumpone]

This is actually easier than most non pilots might think ie unauthorised taking and flying a commercial aircraft, I was once asked by ops to carry out a taxi test of regional jet and whilst I’m at it can I do a LVO check on the aircraft, could I sort it out locally with my regional airport?

So turned up ordered some fuel booked out VFR would need to do 3 approaches the 3rd a full stop landing, so off we go told by ATC it would be 30 minutes before they could let us fly the ILS due inbounds so we cleared off to the North at 2000 - 4000 over the Penines some of it just over 1500 agl then back round for the approach, not a single person from company had spoken to the airport or handling agent. 50 minutes free flying VFR in a regional jet and great fun.

i know of ex mil guy that told me that some guys borrowed a Hurcules for night out in the ME (not RAF) and then adjusted the fuel used over the next 6 official flight to cover the fuel used on the jolly, nearly got caught tho because one bod onboard didn’t make the return trip due falling asleep with a prostitute ����

he was then then in another country with no papers.

[Slow and curious]

Close to 1 million suicides around the globe every year. Most go unnoticed. This one didn`t.

[Blues&twos]

Was it actually a suicide, or did the chap get himself unintentionally way out of his depth? He sounded calm and relatively relaxed on the ATC recordings. Would a man about to kill himself be doing aerobatics?
Very sad, either way, fortuanate that no-one else was involved in the crash.

[wheels_down]

Was it actually a suicide, or did the chap get himself unintentionally way out of his depth? He sounded calm and relatively relaxed on the ATC recordings. Would a man about to kill himself be doing aerobatics?
Very sad, either way, fortuanate that no-one else was involved in the crash.
He stated multiple times we was going to end his life in many ways. He said he was going to do a loop then drive it nose down in the ground afterwards. Also mentioned he was surprised he didn’t impact terrain when he did one of the near ground maneuvers, he was expecting to implode it. Listen to the tapes.

[Blues&twos]

Ah, fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.

[Bend alot]

Ah, fair enough. Thanks for clarifying.
Also from him a mention of life in jail/goal if he landed - and I expect he could have done a survivable landing from what we have seen.

[andyjoy]

Was it actually a suicide, or did the chap get himself unintentionally way out of his depth? He sounded calm and relatively relaxed on the ATC recordings. Would a man about to kill himself be doing aerobatics?
Very sad, either way, fortuanate that no-one else was involved in the crash.

Suicide is a very calm and calculated thing in most cases you do not just decide to kill yourself then do it its a planned out event and in a very rational thought out process.Everyone has there demons sadly this poor man could only see 1 way to deal with them

[AirBumps]

Fantastic job by the controller. That wound have been incredibly stressful for him and he did a great job in what would have been a very traumatic circumstances. Hope he's doing well and gets any support he needs.

[Bob Viking]

What model of F15s do they have at Portland? Do they have a special warp drive that we’re not allowed to hear about?

112NM in under 5 minutes? That would be about 24 NM per minute. Let’s call that an average speed of 1400-1500 knots. That’s pretty awesome.

Whilst I accept they would have made their way to the scene with all haste and supersonic flight would have been permitted, let’s not get carried away.

112 NM isn’t too far for a QRA scramble either is it? Imagine a Coningsby jet being scrambled to an incident off Cornwall.

I’d say the QRA did a pretty good job of getting there in a timely fashion.

BV

[underfire]

When there was an incursion into Seattle airspace when Obama was there, they did go supersonic from PDX, rocked the place, and a bunch of busted windows, as they were at about 2500 feet.
Top speed is around mach 2.5

Rock42 scrambling from PDX (note afterburners and sidewinders)

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1400x933/mzqhqt8lagf11_5ed8346c60bcf932a009f4c86c64faac590dfee6.jpg

[Bob Viking]

I know what Wikipedia will say about top speed but I’m just trying to inject a dose of reality.

Mach 2.5 may have been achieved once, in a clean jet, at high level, in its early test days, but the reality for a tooled up jet will be somewhat less than that.

BV

[Toruk Macto]

They don’t have to travel the entire 112 miles to get off a shot ? How far do they need to be to shoot ? What’s rules of engagement on cilvilan aircraft ? Need to sight first ?

[2dPilot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LLmF9tZoEE

Starts with tower noticing taxi

[Bob Viking]

I have no idea what US QRA RoE are but I would guess they would probably look to get pretty close before shooting.

If there is a requirement to visually identify the aircraft, that can be done from a few miles away with a pod (didn’t see a pod on the PDX F15s, although that doesn’t mean they weren’t carrying one).

The videos that have been released appear to support my suggestion that the F15s would want (at least one of them) to get close.

You have probably read reports before of fighters reporting what is going on in the cockpit of airliners. That might give you an idea of what their job might entail. Admittedly, it would have been very hard to close to that sort of range in this case.

If the order to fire came, they had a choice of AMRAAM or AIM9. I couldn’t possibly discuss what range that would be from but once again, Wikipedia might give you a good idea. Remember, the jet you see in the video wouldn’t necessarily be the guy who fires the shot if the call came.

Anyway, it’s a very sad story regardless.

BV

[NutLoose]

Well if anything comes out of this, it shows the US has learnt the lessons of 911 and their airborne response systems in place now work.


Poor guy.

[er340790]

Kudos to ATC for their sheer professionalism. The manner in which they maintained normal communications with other traffic, while something TOTALLY INSANE was going on in their other ear is a lesson to all. Well done!

(Any word on whether the perp had prior flying experience? The degree of coordination in that barrel roll / pull out seemed improbably high.)

[ADDIS77]

Quite aside from the fact that the F15 would not accelerate to Mach 2 immediately, I have also mentioned how Mach 2 would be incredibly unlikely in the aircraft fit illustrated. There are not many (if any) aircraft that could actually reach Mach 2 at or near to sea level. The pilot would also not want to arrive in the vicinity at Mach 2.

So assuming an acceleration to supersonic, a climb to a reasonable transit height and then a descent to intercept the Q400, even ten minutes would be a stretch. 15 minutes from airborne to intercept is my guess and that is still perfectly respectable.

I’m not sure what else I can say to convince you and the issue is in danger of sidetracking the conversation.

BV

To add a little bit this conversation. As part of their investigation, the 9/11 commissioners asked the U.S. Air Force to provide information regarding the top speed of the F-16s and F-15s that were on alert in 2001.

The top speed for the F-16s was Mach 1.3 and Mach 1.2 for the F-15s. It should be noted that the F-15s that scrambled out of Otis were carrying all three external fuel tanks as opposed to two external fuel tanks on the F-16s. I don't recall if those speeds are for a specific altitude

[menphix]

archive-server.liveatc.net/ksea/KSEA_TWR-Aug-11-2018-0230Z.mp3

Starting around 3:33
Aircraft on charlie lining up runway one six center say your callsign
The dash eight on runway one six center say your callsign
The dash eight on runway one six center say your callsign
Who's the dash eight holding on runway one six center


Around 3:34

[unintelligible] Alaska three twenty two that aircraft [unintelligible] rolling [unintelligible]
Who's the aircraft on runway one six center
His wheels are smoking left and right uh as of right now rolling down the runway
Alright I'm not even talking to him

[Airbubba]

Some insight into the operations of the Portland Air National Guard F-15 unit in this Tyler Rogoway article:

This Is What It Looks Like When You Get Intercepted By An F-15C Eagle - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/19758/this-is-what-it-looks-like-when-you-get-intercepted-by-an-f-15c-eagle)

[jugofpropwash]

If this guy really had no flying experience, it sort of casts a different light on this: https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/611804-easy-1-2-3-a.html

[Lew747]

Curious if any Q400 drivers know what the cockpit warning sounds are for in the background of the audio when the ‘pilot’ is talking?

[tdracer]

Distance: PDX-SEA - 112nm. Nothing closer to scramble?
Back to meadowrun's original question - there are two military airbases nearer that Portland - Joint Base Lewis McCord (outside Tacoma - very close to SeaTac) and Whidbey Island Naval Air Station (obviously on Whidbey Island, ~50 miles north).
However I don't believe any interceptor type aircraft are routinely based at those airbases.

[Intruder]

Forgive my ignorance, but surely there was no flight plan filed and that specific aircraft was not due to depart, so at some point an unauthorised plane was taxiing around SEA and it wasn't noticed.

Surely had someone realised that plane wasn't supposed to be moving at that time then it could have been intercepted a lot earlier.The cargo area at SEA is north of the terminals, and somewhat less well-lit. It is also close to the threshold for the active runway, so he would have had minimal taxi time/distance. According to the local news, he started up, waited for a gap between 2 other taxiing airplanes, and snuck between them. The one in front of him was cleared for takeoff, and he simply followed.

[BayAreaLondoner]

Here’s a clip of the roll. Looks like a fair amount of altitude lost.
https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/11/horizon-air-plane-hijacked-at-sea-tac-airport-seattle-crashes-after-doing-barrel-rolls-7826083/

One of the videos from KING5 posted earlier has a phone interview with an eyewitness who coincidentally says he’s an RJ pilot. He then started to make the point about the current single pilot cargo operation bill in front of Congress.

[Toryu]

Back to meadowrun's original question - there are two military airbases nearer that Portland - Joint Base Lewis McCord (outside Tacoma - very close to SeaTac) and Whidbey Island Naval Air Station (obviously on Whidbey Island, ~50 miles north).
However I don't believe any interceptor type aircraft are routinely based at those airbases.

McChord used to have F-106s and F-15s up to 1989 (318th Fighter Interceptor Squadron).

NAS Whidbey has always been a "heavy attack" base and curently houses the electronic warfare units, flying Growlers.


The F-15s seen in the video have two 600gal external tanks with them. Mach 2 is pretty much out of the window in that configuration.
I would be surprised if they could attain anything more than maybe Mach 1.6.

[A310bcal]

Curious if any Q400 drivers know what the cockpit warning sounds are for in the background of the audio when the ‘pilot’ is talking?
Having listened to the ATC transmissions, first overriding impression is of the professionalism of the ATC controller. As for aural sounds from the cockpit, I picked up GPWS "Terrain" warnings , hardly surprising and from another source I understand the repeating chime is a low fuel warning, again hardly surprising .

Looking at his final "arrival" point, Ketron, the island lies North South and appears to have a clear grass patch in the upper ( Northern ) end. I wonder if "Rich" was trying for a landing on this deserted patch ?

The flying was quite amazing for someone who supposedly had never flown and I'm guessing he had some home computer time on the -400.

Very sad what a tormented mind can drive a person to do. RIP Rich.

[5 RINGS]

Curious if any Q400 drivers know what the cockpit warning sounds are for in the background of the audio when the ‘pilot’ is talking?
it’s the single chime associated with a yellow caution on the CWP (caution warning panel).

[pattern_is_full]

Back to meadowrun's original question - there are two military airbases nearer that Portland - Joint Base Lewis McCord (outside Tacoma - very close to SeaTac) and Whidbey Island Naval Air Station (obviously on Whidbey Island, ~50 miles north).
However I don't believe any interceptor type aircraft are routinely based at those airbases.

Exactly - Whidbey Is. NAS houses patrol, SAR and electronic-warfare units. The EA-18 Growlers are fast and can carry AMRAAMs, but probably not on "scramble" status. Otherwise, P3C/EP-3E/P8 patrol types or helos.
McChord is an airlift/air-mobility base - C-17s

[Airbubba]

A video allegedly by the mishap individual:

https://youtu.be/RQ765Fnec8Q

[RenegadeMan]

A video allegedly by the mishap individual:

https://youtu.be/RQ765Fnec8Q

If this video is indeed him it's all the more sadder. Towards the end of the video he says "and most importantly I get to visit those I love most" and there's various images of his family. Then as the video draws to a close he says one final line "it evens out in the end"; an almost prophetic sign-off in some way that makes one wonder exactly what he meant.

For anyone just looking at this coldly with the usual disconnected "some guy flipped, stole a plane and crashed it" there was a real man with real emotions, real people that loved him and who most likely had real hopes and dreams like the rest of us. But the pressures of modern living and who knows what demons got the better of him.

As we say when we see a fellow aviator brought unstuck by any one of the multitude of pitfalls that can befall us "there but for the grace of God....."

Fly high Rich

[Doors to Automatic]

This is beyond sad. I cannot imagine what this poor chap must have been going through during the week that has just finished. For me, this was especially poignant as it occurred 10 years to the day since I was in a similarly dark place. Unless you have been in such a place it is impossible to understand the utter despair and helplessness that one can feel in this situation. I was lucky as I had my family and some amazing friends around me. It is a tragedy that this chap wasn't able to land and get the help he so desperately needed. I really don't know what else to say. This is awful.

[PukinDog]

I don't feel sad. I feel relieved and very happy this guy didn't wind up killing innocent people on the ground or in another aircraft while he was helping himself to his self-indulgent, attention-getting method of suicide. On the radio he sounds like a typical Millennial YouTuber/Facebooker trying (and failing) to act nonchalant and witty for effect, otherwise why tune and keep his radio turned on talking with ATC if not to star in his own, final show. Perhaps if he'd said goodbye to his wife, family, and friends then quietly gone to jump off a cliff or string himself from the rafters endangering nobody else I'd feel a bit of sympathy.

But trying to make a big, self-narrated show out of it and using a stolen, recklessly-flown aircraft? no.

[Bend alot]

I don't feel sad. I feel relieved and very happy this guy didn't wind up killing innocent people on the ground or in another aircraft while he was helping himself to his self-indulgent, attention-getting method of suicide. On the radio he sounds like a typical Millennial YouTuber/Facebooker trying (and failing) to act nonchalant and witty for effect, otherwise why tune and keep his radio turned on talking with ATC if not to star in his own, final show. Perhaps if he'd said goodbye to his wife, family, and friends then quietly gone to jump off a cliff or string himself from the rafters endangering nobody else I'd feel a bit of sympathy.

But trying to make a big, self-narrated show out of it and using a stolen, recklessly-flown aircraft? no.
The Air Botswana guy that stole the ATR 42 was a pilot not a millennial, there was no real internet there at the time.

He kept the radio on all the time and was talking to ATC, But he was flying over a populated area, he also did a barrel roll and had no intention of killing innocent people on the ground.

I don't think he was seeking attention - just sick.

[Lord Farringdon]

I don't feel sad. I feel relieved and very happy this guy didn't wind up killing innocent people on the ground or in another aircraft while he was helping himself to his self-indulgent, attention-getting method of suicide. On the radio he sounds like a typical Millennial YouTuber/Facebooker trying (and failing) to act nonchalant and witty for effect, otherwise why tune and keep his radio turned on talking with ATC if not to star in his own, final show. Perhaps if he'd said goodbye to his wife, family, and friends then quietly gone to jump off a cliff or string himself from the rafters endangering nobody else I'd feel a bit of sympathy.

But trying to make a big, self-narrated show out of it and using a stolen, recklessly-flown aircraft? no.


Oh PukinDog. Think a bit deeper that your hatred of social media. Rich's job, involved as it was with the pushback of aircraft had him in communication with the cockpit every day. He was obviously very familiar and comfortable with radio chatter. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he stated he didn't want anybody to get hurt. I think his maintaining comms with a very professional controller and mmmm mostly obeying his requests ensured no one got hurt on the ground or in the air. If Rich had had gone no comms it may have been a worse outcome. Maybe you change your forum name to BlackDog and you might understand this a bit better.

[Mark in CA]

indeed!
Also on a practical point of view did he take off from the runway? I'm sure that he did not obtain clearance so might actually be a bit messy...
In any case he cleary knew something of flying and the Q400 to get as far as he did...
At a couple of points in the ATC recording, when being advised of certain flying issues, he clearly says something like "I've played a lot of video games."

[PukinDog]

Oh PukinDog. Think a bit deeper that your hatred of social media. Rich's job, involved as it was with the pushback of aircraft had him in communication with the cockpit every day. He was obviously very familiar and comfortable with radio chatter. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he stated he didn't want anybody to get hurt. I think his maintaining comms with a very professional controller and mmmm mostly obeying his requests ensured no one got hurt on the ground or in the air. If Rich had had gone no comms it may have been a worse outcome. Maybe you change your forum name to BlackDog and you might understand this a bit better.

Long before he had the nice chit chat you're so impressed with, he taxied-out and took off from and airport without saying a word to any controller. What will you tell me next about your St. Rich, that he kept a listening watch out on all freqs, developed a big picture because he was so good at sim-flying and familiar with pushing back aircraft, and was seeing and avoiding all other aircraft taxing and/or taking-off on and around the airport based on his own 3 dimensional picture? Please, oh Lord-whatever, tell me another fairy tale.

Also, if something had gone wrong with the aircraft he's not trained to deal with, he could have easily planted it into a house, road, or whatever after takeoff despite his ramblings on freq later. He knew that as well. Also, he may have luckily ended up not killing anyone in a sparsely-populated area but he had no way of knowing whats in the woods. If he had any credibility about not wanting to hurt anyone he would have splashed it in the water. I believe you're the one who lacks understanding of his potential for killing innocent people, intentional or not.

But you go on ahead thinking whatever you want about good 'ole plane-thieving, reckless-flying, suicidal "Rich" that felt like he was entitled to an audience just because he decided to off himself.

[Bend alot]

Long before he had the nice chit chat you're so impressed with, he taxied-out and took off from and airport without saying a word to any controller. What will you tell me next about your St. Rich, that he kept a listening watch out on all freqs, developed a big picture because he was so good at sim-flying and familiar with pushing back aircraft, and was seeing and avoiding all other aircraft taxing and/or taking-off on and around the airport based on his own 3 dimensional picture? Please, oh Lord-whatever, tell me another fairy tale.

Also, if something had gone wrong with the aircraft he's not trained to deal with, he could have easily planted it into a house, road, or whatever after takeoff despite his ramblings on freq later. He knew that as well. Also, he may have luckily ended up not killing anyone in a sparsely-populated area but he had no way of knowing whats in the woods. If he had any credibility about not wanting to hurt anyone he would have splashed it in the water.

But you go on ahead thinking whatever you want about good 'ole plane-thieving, reckless-flying "Rich".
Oh you missed replying my comment I see.

As the expert how do you explain the report from the pilot that observed the take off. It was along the lines of smoke off the tyres left and right.

Park brake on or brake steering at speed?

[Lord Farringdon]

Long before he had the nice chit chat you're so impressed with, he taxied-out and took off from and airport without saying a word to any controller. What will you tell me next about your St. Rich, that he kept a listening watch out on all freqs, developed a big picture because he was so good at sim-flying and familiar with pushing back aircraft, and was seeing and avoiding all other aircraft taxing and/or taking-off on and around the airport based on his own 3 dimensional picture? Please, oh Lord-whatever, tell me another fairy tale.

Also, if something had gone wrong with the aircraft he's not trained to deal with, he could have easily planted it into a house, road, or whatever after takeoff despite his ramblings on freq later. He knew that as well. Also, he may have luckily ended up not killing anyone in a sparsely-populated area but he had no way of knowing whats in the woods. If he had any credibility about not wanting to hurt anyone he would have splashed it in the water. I believe you're the one who lacks understanding of his potential for killing innocent people, intentional or not.

But you go on ahead thinking whatever you want about good 'ole plane-thieving, reckless-flying, suicidal "Rich" that felt like he was entitled to an audience just because he decided to off himself.

PutinDog. Calm down. Don't be so angry with a young man who is now deceased. Fact: He didn't hurt anyone. I agree there was potential for disaster and for a far more sinister intent. But the reality was something else and perhaps the controllers communications with him made a significant difference to the final outcome. So I am pleased Rich stayed in contact with the controller. It's pretty scary what could have happened as you suggest but put the actual outcome in perspective. Stolen cars have killed more people and created far more carnage, intentionally and unintentionally and they will continue to eclipse this event every day somewhere in the world.

[keeprighton1974]

I'm really disappointed - this being a Professional Pilots Forum - that none of you are questioning the official version of this event. A baggage loader successfully operating the systems of a Q400, taxying, takeoff, loops / rolls near ground level at first try? I was born on a day but that day wasn't yesterday.
I guess this is how the System keeps us in check. If you point out the holes in the story of these events you probably won't be a professional pilot for very long....

[Lord Farringdon]

At a couple of points in the ATC recording, when being advised of certain flying issues, he clearly says something like "I've played a lot of video games."

Yes that was an interesting comment. It was telling in some respects because if had he been one of those Flight Sim guys he probably would have been more forthright in mentioning that. But his reference to 'video games' suggest any simulated flying he had may have been more rudimentary and maybe even app based. In other words he knew what pull back and push forward would do. But who knows, the Q400 was cleaned up after take off so he wan't entirely lacking the necessaries to fly it. I'm sure that worked in favour of the chase F-15 who was better placed than had he been dirty and approaching stall!!

[Toryu]

But you go on ahead thinking whatever you want about good 'ole plane-thieving, reckless-flying, suicidal "Rich" that felt like he was entitled to an audience just because he decided to off himself.

From his perspective, he probably didn't care about an audience. He just saw an opportunity and used it.
He flew out to the Olympic Mountains, that probably were most beautiful that time of day, and said goodbye to life.
That there is reckless behaviour in a person that isn't anymore afraid of dying shouldn't be a Nobel Prize worthy realization.

Would you rather had him take off, buzz around and not talk to controllers what this was all about?

[31Pilot]

But you go on ahead thinking whatever you want about good 'ole plane-thieving, reckless-flying, suicidal "Rich" that felt like he was entitled to an audience just because he decided to off himself.

I work somewhere that frequently has people commit suicide and many people call it selfish and that they want an audience. The truth is that at that moment they’re not them anymore, they’re in a different headspace and the only outcome they see is one of them ending their life by how they have chosen. Their mind completely switches off from what makes sense. From the lack of audio communication on taxi/takeoff I’d say Rich is in that place, he’s effectively on his own auto-pilot. The only way to stop him is by someone speaking to him, and I’d guess nobody was there when he got on that plane.

Later in the recordings It sounds like he might be crying as he talks to the other pilot and ATC about landing. He also said he didn’t expect to make it after the roll.

He was heading for the Olympic mountains, at a guess that was his intended final destination but the talk between pilots/atc might have just convinced him to not do it. I don’t think he ever intended to land the plane when he got on it. I think the ATC/pilot chat in the air will have made him realise this wasn’t the way to go.

Not sure if the crash was a landing attempt or not but there is a lesson in not ignoring mental health to be learnt here.

[DirtyProp]

. He knew what he was doing was wrong and he stated he didn't want anybody to get hurt. I think his maintaining comms with a very professional controller and mmmm mostly obeying his requests ensured no one got hurt on the ground or in the air.
He still destroyed millions of dollars of perfectly good equipment belonging to someone else just to show off. And that's without counting the bill for the scrambling jets, firefighters, etc.
I'm with PukinDog on this one.

[RenegadeMan]

I'm really disappointed - this being a Professional Pilots Forum - that none of you are questioning the official version of this event.
So you're suggesting this is a conspiracy of some sort. That it's just all too unlikely a ground staffer could work out how to get a complex machine like this started up and flying?

I was born on a day but that day wasn't yesterday.
So it's clearly not what it appears to be? Something way more sinister?

I guess this is how the System keeps us in check. If you point out the holes in the story of these events you probably won't be a professional pilot for very long....
So you're saying that "the System" (i.e. Big Brother, the Elite, the Illuminati, etc) have once again pulled the strings and if one of us lower level pawns has the audacity to question it, it's likely to impact your ability to get a good job?

Mmm.....

Perhaps Rich just loved the planes he worked with and read up all about them to learn how they're started and operated. Maybe he's been in the cockpits many times and innocently had yarns with various pilots showing enthusiasm and they've imparted some knowledge to him. Then with his home sim he'd learnt the fundamentals of flying them enough to get this one underway and airborne. The maneuvers aren't all that advanced if you've tried stuff like this on a sim a few times.

Maybe you'd like Alex Jones to cover this story for a bit more "depth of investigation" Lol!

(one thing I really think the world just doesn't need is yet another conspiracy theory about an aircraft accident; be this one a deliberate act. A very troubled man is dead, his family in considerable pain, the ATC controller probably heavily affected too, and his work colleagues at the airline shocked.....I really don't think it's too much more than that and as someone above has alluded to, if you do some research on what the black dog is and what it can do to a person this sad incident is simply a tragedy, nothing more)
​​​​​​​

[EDLB]

So sad he took his life. To see the Olympic mountains you can always charter a small plane with instructor for some hours and have fun for a few hundred bucks.

[chuboy]

I'm really disappointed - this being a Professional Pilots Forum - that none of you are questioning the official version of this event. A baggage loader successfully operating the systems of a Q400, taxying, takeoff, loops / rolls near ground level at first try? I was born on a day but that day wasn't yesterday.
I guess this is how the System keeps us in check. If you point out the holes in the story of these events you probably won't be a professional pilot for very long....
A loop, in a Q400, pulling out practically in ground effect?

Impossible except through dumb luck.

[JCviggen]

He still destroyed millions of dollars of perfectly good equipment belonging to someone else just to show off.

Did he say that he was doing it to show off, or did you make up your mind about that in the absence of information and relevant knowledge on mental health?

You're assuming that a suicidal human thinks like a regular, fully functioning human. They do not. He probably decribed it best himself when he said he had a couple of screws loose. It's a failure of a biological component at which point everything that might seem simplistically normal to you or me no longer applies.

[aerobat77]

at an international airport

-you would get every attention when you startup the engines without any startup clearance and with no flightplan of this aircraft in the system

- you would surely trigger a full blown alert when you start to taxi an aircraft without radio communication to ground , without startup and taxi clearance and without any flightplan issued .

i,m wondering how he made it to takeoff position on the runway ??? i would expect you would be blocked with e.g a fire truck to reach the runway in such a case

[RenegadeMan]

at an international airport

-you would get every attention when you startup the engines without any startup clearance and with no flightplan of this aircraft in the system

- you would surely trigger a full blown alert when you start to taxi an aircraft without radio communication to ground , without startup and taxi clearance and without any flightplan issued .

i,m wondering how he made it to takeoff position on the runway ??? i would expect you would be blocked with e.g a fire truck to reach the runway in such a case

Play this YouTube coverage of the initial and subsequent ATC stream and you'll hear the the SeaTac tower calling the aircraft attempting to work out who it is and what's happening. I'd say the distance from where he started to the runway threshold was pretty short so there was likely no time for any intervention

STOLEN DASH-8 MAKES AN UNAUTHORIZED TAKEOFF at SeaTac

[growahead]

I don’t think he was showing off. From the statements he made, and perhaps the tone, it seemed to me he had a grievance against the company, a feeling that he had been given the rough end of a pineapple, so to speak. I think he was sending a message to the company, and perhaps trying to make them pay somehow.
Regardless, a needless tragedy. If you haven’t been in a dark place yet, you will probably get there sometime. Hopefully, someone will give you a hand back up.

[TURIN]

Great, not only do we have conspiracy theory 'nutters' on here we also have people with no understanding of mental health. Yes, I do see the irony in that statement but some of the comments here show no respect for this man's famiy, friends, co-workers or the ATC guys who had to listen to this and work through it.

Mental health is a huge problem in society, it needs addressing properley not sweeping under the carpet or blaming the individual.

Think on.

[Lord Farringdon]

He still destroyed millions of dollars of perfectly good equipment belonging to someone else just to show off. And that's without counting the bill for the scrambling jets, firefighters, etc.
I'm with PukinDog on this one.


Dont fret Dirty Prop. Your air tickets paid for the insurance premiums and the insurance company budgeted for losses. No one lost anything except perhaps some reduced dividend to the shareholders of the insurance company. The F-15 guys got some extremely good training which comes out of their training and operational budgets again, already accounted for.

[Lord Farringdon]

I don’t think he was showing off. From the statements he made, and perhaps the tone, it seemed to me he had a grievance against the company, a feeling that he had been given the rough end of a pineapple, so to speak. I think he was sending a message to the company, and perhaps trying to make them pay somehow.
Regardless, a needless tragedy. If you haven’t been in a dark place yet, you will probably get there sometime. Hopefully, someone will give you a hand back up.

Absolutely Growahead. Tragic indeed for all. Like the Germanwings crash (and I know this is nothing like the Germanwings crash) these guys seemed to harbor some company resentment but I wonder how much of that is just long time inner turmoil bubbling to the surface and finding a convenient home (and unfortunately a convenient tool) in their current employment circumstances. I do hope the controller gets some good support around him. He did a great job of remaining absolutely professional even after Rich said to him 'there are peoples live at stake here! No controller I would suspect is prepared in the slightest to deal with mental health issues in the cockpit but there he was dealing with it anyway and my hat goes off to him.

[Lord Farringdon]

A loop, in a Q400, pulling out practically in ground effect?

Impossible except through dumb luck.

Agree. It was a barrel roll that never looked like being one. Or a very poorly executed aileron roll or a screwed up split-s. Whatever it was it was indeed dumb luck that he ended up pulling out of it, although that may not have been the outcome he was looking for. The wings did not appear to be threatening to clap wingtips and the light aircraft (almost out of fuel by the sounds of it) was probably more sprightly and agile than he thought (expected).

[aerobat77]

turin , nobody says the atc is faked .

i,m personally say its only strange how he was able and had the time to start the engines , at least connect the generators to the bus , start the avionics , taxi away to the runway and depart . it appears they got alerted when he was about to lineup which is very late . ground control sleeping ?

[Timpsi]

The cargo area at SEA is north of the terminals, and somewhat less well-lit. It is also close to the threshold for the active runway, so he would have had minimal taxi time/distance. According to the local news, he started up, waited for a gap between 2 other taxiing airplanes, and snuck between them. The one in front of him was cleared for takeoff, and he simply followed.
I was wondering the same thing, thank you for clearing that up. So there would not have been sufficient time to do anything about it probably, and even if there was, what could anybody have done when he's in an airplane heading for the Runway...

[Bob Viking]

I have no experience of a Q400 but, if it’s like every aircraft I’ve flown, you don’t need avionics in order to get airborne. Especially when you consider the guy’s intentions.

Engines can be started very quickly and you are ready to taxy within a minute of the noise starting. All of this at an airport where noise levels are high anyway.

Given the circumstances I don’t think many airports would have been able to intervene in time. That may, of course, change in the future.

BV

[StudentInDebt]

turin , nobody says the atc is faked .

i,m personally say its only strange how he was able and had the time to start the engines , at least connect the generators to the bus , start the avionics , taxi away to the runway and depart . it appears they got alerted when he was about to lineup which is very late . ground control sleeping ?

You, and another who asked why no-one noticed him taxying without a clearance, are familiar with the concept of non-movement areas at US airfields and the boundary for the northern ramp area in relation to 16L/C at KSEA in particular?

[RobertS975]

OK, it is still amazing to me that this fellow could successfully perform the acrobatic maneuvers that we see in the film. I don't care about how realistic the simulators are! The G forces are not experienced in the simulator. Or was he simply lucky not to have met the ground during that loop?

[gr4techie]

This is actually easier than most non pilots might think ie unauthorised taking and flying a commercial aircraft, I was once asked by ops to carry out a taxi test of regional jet and whilst I’m at it can I do a LVO check on the aircraft, could I sort it out locally with my regional airport?

So turned up ordered some fuel booked out VFR would need to do 3 approaches the 3rd a full stop landing, so off we go told by ATC it would be 30 minutes before they could let us fly the ILS due inbounds so we cleared off to the North at 2000 - 4000 over the Penines some of it just over 1500 agl then back round for the approach, not a single person from company had spoken to the airport or handling agent. 50 minutes free flying VFR in a regional jet and great fun.

i know of ex mil guy that told me that some guys borrowed a Hurcules for night out in the ME (not RAF) and then adjusted the fuel used over the next 6 official flight to cover the fuel used on the jolly, nearly got caught tho because one bod onboard didn’t make the return trip due falling asleep with a prostitute ����

he was then then in another country with no papers.


There's also the C-130 Hercules that was stolen from RAF Mildenhall in 1969 by a homesick USAF Sergeant. Interestingly theres conspiracy theories whether he crashed it in the English Channel or he was shot down by QRA?

[Toryu]

What's with all these fallacies? Your false dichotomy was answered in my first post; If he felt he needed to self-delete I'd rather he had found a handy cliff to jump off or simply hanged himself from the rafters of his garage, endangering nobody else and requiring the fewest number of people to clean up the mess. He had a slew other choices to go out out quietly that didn't involve operating a large piece of fast-moving machinery with reckless abandon around other people.

One thing's for sure, if he had unintentionally T-boned another aircraft full of passengers during or after takeoff, or at any point for any reason lit-up and char-broiled a restaurant full of people eating their meals, the empathy bandwagon for this suicidal plane-thief wouldn't be rolling so heavy with "poor troubled soul his intention wasn't to hurt anyone" platitudes re mental health.

He wasn't a pilot trained on the aircraft, and with no training to operate/manipulate things automatically or almost subconsciously without thinking, in order to start engines, taxi, and get airborne/climb out he was acting consciously in a planned fashion. At all those points he knew what he was doing could have produced balled-up flaming metal that could affect/hurt others. Therefore, his voicing a supposed concern about "others" to the controller once airborne are meaningless words at that point if it comes to making an assumption about the actual level that existed when he spoke them. And again, if he had really meant them when he spoke them he would have speared it into the waves where he could see to be certain no others were instead of the woods where he couldn't.

The funny thing is: Even though he didn't have any training, he pulled it off and managed to stay true to his intent, not hurting anybody.
That suggests that not only is flying the airplane a lot easier than you make it to be (which it is), but also flying the good old "see and avoid" VFR-thingy mostly works.
He did have some help by ATC clearing the airspace, which also was easier by him adressing them and stating his intentions.

As others have already mentioned: Your understanding of mental illness and suicidal people is less than basic.
Using clever-sounding vocabulary like dichotomy can't put a band-aid on that.

[gr4techie]

I don't feel sad. I feel relieved and very happy this guy didn't wind up killing innocent people on the ground or in another aircraft while he was helping himself to his self-indulgent, attention-getting method of suicide. On the radio he sounds like a typical Millennial YouTuber/Facebooker trying (and failing) to act nonchalant and witty for effect, otherwise why tune and keep his radio turned on talking with ATC if not to star in his own, final show. Perhaps if he'd said goodbye to his wife, family, and friends then quietly gone to jump off a cliff or string himself from the rafters endangering nobody else I'd feel a bit of sympathy.

But trying to make a big, self-narrated show out of it and using a stolen, recklessly-flown aircraft? no.

I actually know one person who attempted to commit suicide and another person who unfortunately did commit suicide.

Both were a shocking surprise to me, completely unexpected and were definitely not for attention. The attempted suicide said he knew something was wrong with him medically, he described it like there was a chemical imbalance in his brain that caused severe depression.

For all those on here that write "what about the innocent people", the attempted suicide told me that he didn't think once about how his suicide attempt would affect others, including the feelings of his relatives. Another person with depression told me that "other people didn't care about him".

Pukindog, do you have the social skills to work with other people, spot mental health issues and be able to resolve them? Your comments are no help to anyone what so ever and I find them quite ignorant and immature.

[Aerospace101]

why is no one considering the fact that this poor guy could have had his life saved by being talked down, even a controlled ditching? Just as a suicide jumper can be talked down from a bridge. There are 2 types of human communication, 1. A loving response or 2. a Cry for Help. When he started talking to ATC that was his "cry for help". There seems to be a number of pilot suicides, I'm surprised ATC dont have a speed dial to a trained negotiator or someone like Tony Robbins to at least try a therapeutic intervention.

[Vessbot]

For crying out loud, it's not rocket surgery to get an airplane upside down and then pull out of whatever follows... successfully or not. Why are people expecting there to have been any precision or skill about it? Yes it's just pure dumb luck that he had the altitude. No, someone who's literally suicidal would not need to check the airspeed/altitude gate before entering.

[HighWind]

why is no one considering the fact that this poor guy could have had his life saved by being talked down, even a controlled ditching? Just as a suicide jumper can be talked down from a bridge. There are 2 types of human communication, 1. A loving response or 2. a Cry for Help. When he started talking to ATC that was his "cry for help". There seems to be a number of pilot suicides, I'm surprised ATC dont have a speed dial to a trained negotiator or someone like Tony Robbins to at least try a therapeutic intervention.
He was not that stupid..
He knew that a point of no return was crossed when he pressed that start button, resulting in loss of job, some friends, and jail time. And following jail time it would be difficult to get a good job again..
From that point the worst outcome would be to be captured alive...
He might have analyzed the risk of being stopped in his act before getting airborne, or ending in a ball of fire if the takeoff had failed.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

This is the end of the relaxed security we still have when flying domestic within the states... shoes and belts off from now on!
This chap had a Airport I.D. and was vetted every two years. What's that to do with shoes n belts I just don't know.
V sad news

[PukinDog]

The funny thing is: Even though he didn't have any training, he pulled it off and managed to stay true to his intent, not hurting anybody.
That suggests that not only is flying the airplane a lot easier than you make it to be (which it is), but also flying the good old "see and avoid" VFR-thingy mostly works.
He did have some help by ATC clearing the airspace, which also was easier by him adressing them and stating his intentions.

SeaTac has approximately 400,000 aircraft movements per year, about the 30th busiest in the world by that measure, or over 1,000 movements per day where he taxied and blasted-off unannounced. There are other airports in the area with their own mixed jet and light aircraft traffic as well the controllers may or may not be talking to. You talk to me about mental health yet come up with absurd statements like "the good old see and avoid VFR thingy mostly works" when the subject is a busy airport and terminal area. Worked for those people in Cerritos (among many others in other places) real well, didn't it? That crew, even with multiple, professional sets of eyes outside and with the controller's help, thought they were seeing and avoiding too right up until the one they never saw sent them and their passengers down into a residential neighborhood where besides the 64 in the aircraft, 15 more died as well.

As others have already mentioned: Your understanding of mental illness and suicidal people is less than basic.
Using clever-sounding vocabulary like dichotomy can't put a band-aid on that.

Your understanding of the ramifications and what happens to people during a runway incursion, midair, or flaming metal debris flung at high speed into unprotected people is less than basic. My guess is that you've never had to attend an accident site up close to witness or pick up the pieces. Mental health becomes immaterial when what holds it isn't on one's shoulders anymore and neither band aids or your attempts to poo-poo his reckless method can mend that.

Anyway, why are you jumping to the conclusion it was mental illness or depression that triggered Baron Von Rich-toffen to do what he did? Is it because you feel like you're some sort of expert? It's clear that you and those others you speak of fancy yourselves as such, but for all you or anyone else knows yet he could have had a brain tumor or other physical disease that capsized his boat.

No matter how many mental health generalities and platitudes you repeat or how high you aim to seat yourself on a pedestal of "understanding the issue", the fact is you have absolutely no idea what was going on inside his head before or during this incident. You certainly can't divine it from what's been seen or heard. How do you know it was mental illness and not something done spur of the moment due to a shock or a sense of sudden shame from finding out, say, a wife cheating or a girl he met during one of his college classes the previous semester turns up with his out-of-wedlock baby conceived during one night's drunk indiscretion? People over-react for those types of things all the time, believing the sky is falling and their life ruined so why live longer to face the consequences? Perhaps some test came back positive revealing a life-changing disease, or his wife announced she was leaving him over his porn addiction. Maybe he'd gotten into some crystal meth or drank at work and simply acted under the influence, maybe not, but there's plenty of things in life one can commit suicide over that don't fall into the category of "mental illness" yet can still cause someone to decide at that moment it's not worth living. People who've been married for decades and decades sometimes do it after their lifelong partner dies and the other has already decided when the time comes they aren't going to go on without the one they lost. Others do it because they want to follow their "soul mate". Point is, killing oneself in and of itself doesn't automatically indicate a "mental illness".

I remember a guy in the news, a drunk biker, racing up and down a small town main street during the middle of the day, killing a little girl who stepped out in front of him. He stopped, got off his bike and after he saw and it sunk in what he'd done witnesses said he walked right back to his motorcycle, took a pistol out of his saddlebag and shot himself in the head right then and there in the street near her. Even as drunk as he was, apparently he was sober enough to decide he couldn't live with what he'd done through his own recklessness and stupidity. Mentally ill? No, in that case he was just acting as his own judge, jury, and executioner.

So even though you and the others you referred to have decided for yourselves his method (stealing and blasting off out of SeaTac) is "not his fault" and therefore beyond reproach or criticism due to the "mental illness" you assume he had so as to begin your White Knighting crusade in his name, it's merely nothing more than your guess and it's as speculative as anyone else's.


​​​​​​gr4techie
​I actually know one person who attempted to commit suicide and another person who unfortunately did commit suicide.

Both were a shocking surprise to me, completely unexpected and were definitely not for attention. The attempted suicide said he knew something was wrong with him medically, he described it like there was a chemical imbalance in his brain that caused severe depression.

For all those on here that write "what about the innocent people", the attempted suicide told me that he didn't think once about how his suicide attempt would affect others, including the feelings of his relatives. Another person with depression told me that "other people didn't care about him".

Pukindog, do you have the social skills to work with other people, spot mental health issues and be able to resolve them? Your comments are no help to anyone what so ever and I find them quite ignorant and immature.

Knowing someone who's attempted suicide doesn't make you special or give you special insight into what makes the 30.000+ in the U.S. who succeed at it every year do so. Almost anyone reaching a certain age has known both, myself included. Just like experiencing bouts of depression doesn't turn one into an instant expert on why others experience it, it certainly seems to make some believe it does. If it floats your boat to assume these weighty matters are just simply above or beyond my experience because in this particular case I weigh the very real potential for deadly harm to others he created on his quest for self-harm above his transmitted ramblings and his own life he chose to take, it's your prerogative.

However, if you or anyone is seeking help for their mental illness or depression on this Pilot's forum website, they are most definitely in the wrong place. You think a thread discussing a guy stealing, joy-riding, and performing a lousy airshow in a Q400 should be turned into some sort of spontaneous, mental health group therapy session? Apparently, you and many others believe it should be. I find that immature. Only immaturity would lead one to believe that one could find "help" or enlightenment for complicated, suicide-level mental health issues from a bunch of strangers on the internet, and it's ignorant to believe so.

[Photonic]

Poor chap. Let’s think if there anything positive about what he did. And I think certainly is: he has demonstrated that piloting complex modern airplane is not as difficult as pilots & unions want general public to believe in order to support the salary & perks level. Lots of us within the industry knew that for decades but he made it public knowledge.

You don't pay the pilot to take off and get into the air. You pay the pilot to arrive at the destination and land the plane full of pax safely. This event demonstrates nothing in that respect.

[16024]

Photonic, you beat me to it. If all you need me to do is start her up and pull the stick back then I can relax all about those sim checks and home study. Claim back the price of a small house that it cost me to qualify in the first place. Ignore the compo minded complaints from the SLF.

And:
why is no one considering the fact that this poor guy could have had his life saved by being talked down, even a controlled ditching? Just as a suicide jumper can be talked down from a bridge. There are 2 types of human communication, 1. A loving response or 2. a Cry for Help. When he started talking to ATC that was his "cry for help". There seems to be a number of pilot suicides, I'm surprised ATC dont have a speed dial to a trained negotiator or someone like Tony Robbins to at least try a therapeutic intervention.

Did you listen to the tapes? If ever there was a calm attempt at building a connection it was from that controller. I hope he is recognised for this.

[Murexway]

If you haven’t been in a dark place yet, you will probably get there sometime. Hopefully, someone will give you a hand back up. Everybody is human and life isn't always fair. But fortunately for us all, "dark places" don't cause the average person to endanger hundreds or thousands of innocent lives. I'm growing tired of the current notion that, "There, but for the grace of God, anybody could have done (whatever)". "Give you a hand back up"? How about accepting responsibility for your life and picking yourself back up? Every adult is responsible for their own life and their own actions. If he had headed toward downtown Seattle or any densely populated area, he should (and would) have been shot down - period.

[RenegadeMan]

Dare to question the official story of an event and have your sanity questioned. Please don't send me to Room 101.

I'm going on a FlyBe Q400 later this year. I'll be sure to tell the pilots how easy their job is and how unnecessary their training is. I mean, any old Tom, Dick or Harry could do it on the first attempt. Gimme a break :)

Why don't you give all of us (who just can't stomach more ridiculous conspiracy 'nutters' as someone above's said) a break! Why is there such a penchant for some people commenting in Internet forums to jump to conclusions there's an "official story" and then the real story? What is it that has you automatically assuming that "you'd have to be born yesterday" to believe "what we're being told"?

Do you really think a conspiracy is at work here? For goodness sake, a man is dead, his family is grieving, an ATC controller probably now needs counselling help too, co workers and colleagues have been left shocked and upset and it was all live broadcast across an open frequency (now reproduced on dozens of websites) so just "how" has there been a cover-up or an "official story" different to what's happened at work here? He clearly knew how to start the aircraft (you can learn this stuff easily - it's called "The Internet"), taxi it to the active runway and take-off. His maneuvers were likely pulled off with a combination of practise from flying a Q400 sim on his home computer and some "dumb-luck" that had him just level out before hitting the water. The final crash may have been another "barrell roll" that didn't work out.

None of this means
I'm going on a FlyBe Q400 later this year. I'll be sure to tell the pilots how easy their job is and how unnecessary their training is. I mean, any old Tom, Dick or Harry could do it on the first attempt
is even remotely a valid comment and in fact it's totally ridiculous because being a professional pilot executing successful flights in all types of weather day-in day-out is a whole other skill level than what happened with this guy using an aircraft for suicide.

You really need to "think" and use some reasonable logic before commenting with such trash.

(Forum admin would you please stop deleting my post with no email explaining why!!! If there's something terribly wrong with it please advise but just deleting it with no word or explanation is hardly in keeping with this forum's openness)

[gpzz]

I was in a similiar place once and when the brain goes awol it is utterly horrendous..no sense to it at all. Goodness knows what level of irrationality it takes to jump in front of a train.

This guy had no fun at all despite his tone in the 90 mins he was airborne nor was he showing off but he was seeking help..he just went about it in the most awful way possible, with only one possible outcome.

Puke. Your inability to understand this is totally ok..most people struggle with it too but take it from me when it happens normal thinking which we all think we are entitled to goes out the window, big time.

Hope the ATC gets a good de-brief and the support he deserves...hell of a job he did, nothing else he could have said.

[admiral ackbar]

According to ITV News he used a pushback tug to bring the aircraft to the runway, which doesn't make sense to me how would he have released and set the parking brake in the cockpit when he would of had to be in the tug at the same time!

3rd time posting this as both other attempts seem to have been deleted by the time i log out and come back in a few hours later.


Umm not a pilot but someone who is posted this sequence on another board: release parking brake, get in tug, push back, get out of tug, set parking brake, detach tug. Am I missing something? Maybe your post is being deleted because there is no issue.

[Simplythebeast]

I was wondering the same thing, thank you for clearing that up. So there would not have been sufficient time to do anything about it probably, and even if there was, what could anybody have done when he's in an airplane heading for the Runway...
Block the runway?

[Vessbot]

Block the runway?

Pretty much the only thing I can envision that could work in time is for the tower controller to push the button that makes the barricades pop up out of the pavement at all the hold short points.

[RoyHudd]

Unbelievable rubbish posted here. Easy to fly accurately and land a Q400? With failures? Absolutely not. Training, testing required.

Richard Russell showing off? Stupid, and wrong. No showboating there. He was out of control.

Media conspiracy? Not at all. No evident suppression of facts.

And maybe worst, the idea of this guy being deliberately irresponsible? He was suicidal. Had he been involved with trucks or busses, he would probably have driven off the side of a mountain road.

[edi_local]

Pretty much the only thing I can envision that could work in time is for the tower controller to push the button that makes the barricades pop up out of the pavement at all the hold short points.

A long shot, but airport fire trucks could be rushed to the scene to prevent the plane from moving. At a low taxi speed, a firetruck placed in front of the aircraft would surely prevent it from being able to move forward. This is an uninformed opinion, I have no knowledge of this area, hence why I merely suggest it. It would probably only really work on a smaller plane anyway.

I guess not too many people would be willing to go near an active plane?

[core_dump]

I'm surprised ATC dont have a speed dial to a trained negotiator or someone like Tony Robbins to at least try a therapeutic intervention.

Tony Robbins the "life coach"? Surely you can't be serious. I mean whenever the cops have someone cornered who is threatening to blow themselves up, they always call in a worthless "life coach", right?

What this kid needed was a short therapy session with Dr. Sidewinder.

[PAXboy]

Folks think that Ground Control 'failed' at noticing his start up and approach to the active. I do not think it unusual at all.

In the working year of a massive airport such as this, everyone expects that everyone will follow the rules. As he was so close to an active, the time for people to realise that he was not following the rules would have been very short. When first noticed, they would have attempted radio contact and, once sure that there is a problem - more time had passed.

If you think that Ground and ATC 'failed' ask how many times the situation they faced occurs in the lifetime of each member of staff? To realise what has gone wrong and take action for something utterly outside normality and for which training would be almost impossible? They did so well.

[Vessbot]

and besides that, dragging an aircraft on or near an active runway in good visibility would have brought a lot of attention from people across the airport.

Some article out of the multitude used "runway" as the only word the author knows for paved surface at an airport (as I'm sure some other article used "tarmac.")

He pushed back and started on a ramp/apron. Just like any other flight. And this one is uncontrolled. Then he taxied several airplane lengths to the runway.

There's no mystery to solve.

[IcePaq]

I may have flown missions with this guy in Aces High. Voice is very familiar as is his demeanor.

It would also explain how he actually completed some of what he did since the sim is unbelievably immersive and the flight and physics modeling is non-arcade..............minus the real life forces on the human body you experience in a real plane.

Pretty much everybody there has performed rolling scissors during dogfights.

[fatespilot]

A disgruntled SkyWest pilot nearly destroyed the airline in 2012 by stealing an RJ with the plan of crashing it into HQ.

Miller, J., & Neugebauer, C. (2012, July 18). SkyWest pilot kills self after trying to steal plane at St. George airport. The Salt Lake Tribune."Hedglin parked the motorcycle, then threw a rug over a razor-wire fence and used leather gloves to scale it. Once inside the fence, Hedglin got inside a regional jet, and started the engine. Hedglin backed the aircraft away from the jet bridge ... then began to pull forward. The jet's left wing hit the jet bridge, and when Hedglin turned to head east, he scraped the same wing along the terminal building. . . . then drove the jet through a security fence and over some landscaping before finally stopping after hitting multiple cars in the public parking lot."

[Alpine Flyer]

we already have cockpit doors installed in transport category aircraft, maybe there is a way to utilize the locked door during periods not in service. remember we can only mitigate the risk to a point thats low and acceptable but not 100%.

Don‘t want to contemplate the logistics of that. How would you unlock them? Dozens to hundreds of keys for a Fleet managed by whom? How would keys be passed from one crew to another when they don‘t meet at the A/C and generic keys would be worthless.

Codes would require some way of frequently changing and notifying them as well.

Ground staff needs access to flight decks to tow A/C, so if you want to cover two-person only access you‘d need some dual code protocol.

All this sounds mightily expensive to avoid a very infrequent problem. Money should better be spent for real safety improvements like vertical profile WX radar, onboard ground weather radar reception, EVAS, etc. A lot of guys still have to fly around without ACARS and Non-mandatory A/C software updates get postponed for cost reasons in these low-cost days....

[pattern_is_full]

On the question of starting up the engines without being noticed:

This Alaska/Horizon aircraft was almost certainly parked on the cargo ramp of its parent company, Alaska Air (if reports that it was on "the cargo ramp" are correct). Which is directly at the foot of the 300-foot (100m)-tall main control tower at Sea-Tac. Unless the controllers have a glass floor to look through (which they don't - in fact there is a structural "bulge" below the tower cab that further limits downward sight lines), a plane on that ramp is not going to be "obvious" to the control tower. Probably visible, if the controller stands up and leans over his "desk" or whatever other equipment he is using, to look down. But without a radio call for engine start or taxi clearance, not within the "normal scan" of the runways and active taxi routes.

It is also, as previously mentioned, a "non-movement area" that is not part of ATC responsibility or interest, until the aircraft reaches the checkerboard hold line at the taxiway entry. And if it is dusk, and no beacons/navlights were turned on (anyone know?), even less attention-attracting.

The tower, in "reverse angle" to show how the cab windows are blocked from close-in ground views, without some controller gymnastics: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KSEA_Tower_Exterior.jpg

The area, on google maps. Note proximity of tower and Alaska Air Cargo ramp: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Seattle-Tacoma+International+Airport/@47.4564273,-122.3033823,505m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x99d3d9c4c7dc37b7!8m2!3d47.4502 499!4d-122.3088165

Maybe the aircraft thief was aware of this, from casual knowledge and "shop talk" during three years on the job - or (more probably) maybe he wasn't, and it was just dumb luck.

[PukinDog]

Murexway
If he had headed toward downtown Seattle or any densely populated area, he should (and would) have been shot down - period.


What this kid needed was a short therapy session with Dr. Sidewinder.

With an aircraft that large he probably would've received one early-on had there been a way to confirm he was alone in the aircraft, but as it was transpiring nobody including the intercepting F-15 eyeballs could do so. They had to accept the real possibly of innocents also being on board, perhaps already injured by him or under duress inside the cabin aft of a locked cockpit door, and act accordingly. Certainly amidst his meandering requests for orca coordinates, Olympic Range weather, and expressions of dissatisfaction re minimum wage, company higher-ups, and affirmative action hiring practices combined with events like FedEx 705, PSA 1771, and Germanwings 9525 where co-workers had no qualms about killing co-workers and strangers, his statements about not wanting to hurt anyone wouldn't have been taken at face value or assumed to mean the only potential threat to life was to people on the ground.

It's possible the only reason he made it as far as what's seen in the video is because of the uncertainty of other lives in the aircraft being at stake, as I don't believe it's current policy to allow those stealing large aircraft flown near populated areas to bring it down at a point of their own choosing or until it runs out of fuel, no matter what they say.

[davews]

If it is indeed suicide (and surely that must be pure speculation at the moment) it is probable that even his close friends and relatives know nothing about his intentions. Many years ago my uncle took his life by suicide, drowning himself in a local pond. Although he had a few medical issues, none of them life threatening, nobody thought he would do this and it came as a total bolt out of the blue when he did. As a teenage lad you imagine it upset me immensely. We will never know what was going through this chaps mind before he took off.

[Toryu]

...

Ok, I'll spell it out for you one more time - in color:
Suicidal people don't think or act rationally, so stop putting the blame-game onto him like he was a rationally thinking person.

[bunk exceeder]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1500x2000/a4a8f17e_66db_417c_8fc7_95d3cce989c4_d5b56d42ae5932362746e8c 31b264bbed32615c7.png
Change usually sucks. FTL’s (Zzzzzz), CDSS (ow, my back), the cockpit door itself (banging all night waking me up), etc. So what would suck least? First, the plane.

Pop up barriers would be an expensive nonsense. Not cost prohibitive, if little car parks have them, but they’d have to be everywhere. “Cos the next guy might use a taxiway....”

The cockpit door with access code issues mean that locking it on the ground would cause problems for everyone, with too many codes floating around too many people, and safety issues galore. As for Golf-Sierra’s worries above, if the crazy does get onto the flight deck during flight, would the crew just sit there while he gets out the little metal plate and fits it neatly over the FCS’s? We’re really not talking about inflight cockpit breaches of in-service airplanes but more about planes we’ve left lying around somewhere. Overnight, in a Mx area, on a cargo ramp, etc.

Hence the “throttle lock” idea. Or a lockable chock, like AOPA recommends. Not to be fitted every time a 747 rolls up to T5, just when it’s left over by Hatton Cross. Remember the guys who broke in (for fun) and filmed themselves in BA Jumbos? They had no intention of going flying but a bit of tin over the four little switches that let you go fly would have ensured that pictures is all they took. The lockable chock, maybe not, as jet engines at full thrust can be weapons themselves. Remember Asiana doing a full power blast on the ramp in ANC? They tore up two airplanes and blew stuff everywhere. And how big and heavy would that chock have to be? So protect the GO switches/levers.

As for the mental health component, I do feel very sorry for Rich. Taking a little non addictive pill every day and talking to someone might have been all he needed to put the smoking brakes on this. My life exploded some years ago and I trolled around like a dick for years. What changed? My really nice (airline pilot also) friend fessed up that he had hit a wall too. So he found a person to talk to and is back flying. If he could do it, I could too. And it was great. EAP/peer intervention avenues should be open and available. And the nice thing about talking to someone is that your poor spouse doesn’t have to listen to all your BS for years on end.

When it comes to aviation authorities trying to conduct psych evals on crews reporting for duty, like some have suggested, NOPE. I don’t like any of that. In these “cost conscious days,” it’ll just turn into another empire for people to work in once they’ve mastered the fries machine at their local McDonalds, digging into stuff that they neither have the training or experience to understand. Nor does this pertain to the case of planes left lying around. But I remember back when the small island I spend much time on had no crime. Except the odd stolen car, because people left the doors open and the keys in the ignition all the time because there was no crime. The bars would empty and people wanted rides home. But the locked cars without keys in them were neve r stolen. The ones with keys were found the next day.

[KenV]

Lock systems only work if there are one or two owners/operators. Airplanes have dozens and even hundreds of operators making any lock system simply untenable.

[Ian W]

Lock systems only work if there are one or two owners/operators. Airplanes have dozens and even hundreds of operators making any lock system simply untenable.
Any idea with locks fails when the person allowed to have a key - which this person was - is the one that wants to use the aircraft for a visible suicide. As we saw with German Wings this could be a first officer. Security with wetware always eventually requires trust - there will always be people that breach that trust.

[what next]

Any idea with locks fails when the person allowed to have a key - which this person was - is the one that wants to use the aircraft for a visible suicide. As we saw with German Wings this could be a first officer. Security with wetware always eventually requires trust - there will always be people that breach that trust.

Exactly. And the Germanwings catastrophe is an excellent example how locks can be misused. And please, just because of one single event in 115 years of powered aviation, do not make life more complicated and annoying for all of us. We have enough locks and security checks and protocols and procedures and IDs and keycards in place to take most of the enjoyment out of our profession.

[Murexway]

The ultimate problem is that of "trusted" individuals who go rogue.

And as for the "how could he not have been noticed sooner by the tower?", SEATAC is a large airport and multiple airplanes are always being moved on ramps, started up, stopped, shut down, etc. This would have been noticed earlier at a smaller, controlled field but so what? The guy could still have taken off before anybody could have prevented him from doing so. Stuff happens and nothing is 100%... which is why we have air defenses on alert.

[bunk exceeder]

[QUOTE=Murexway;10222587]The ultimate problem is that of "trusted" individuals who go rogue.

There’s not much you can do about a Germanwings or an Air Botswana. Nor indeed the Skywest guy. How come I’ve never seen this?

https://youtu.be/4Xd2tQkpLnw

Poor plane. When pilots go rogue, well, thankfully that is an extremely, I say again, extremely rare occurrence. Which doesn’t pertain to this incident. But biggish stuff does get stolen. It’s not as unprecedented as you’d think.

Theres the Citation:

Stolen Citation Pilot Indicted On Grand Theft Charge | Aero-News Network (http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=0cf802bc-744d-4f53-b5f3-de29554bca84)

And the (LOL) Gulfstream:

https://www.joc.com/maritime-news/mexico-lax-about-returning-stolen-cars-us-complains-then-theres-case-gulfstream-jet_19960523.html

And the 727:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Angola_727_disappearance

As well as various little plane incidents such as this one:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-cessna-pilot-hoped-to-be-shot-down/

Notable because it sounds like this guy was in the same “head space” as Rich might have been. He didn’t think it through. Just “OK, I got this far and nobody stopped me....” But back to Germanwings, would it have happened if there was a flight deck toilet? What would have been the business case for it have been? What would the 2 extra seats worth of space have “cost”? Could they have built a flight deck toilet for free from the bits of Airbus that they picked up in the Alps? What was the business case for that? So how do we “fix” a “problem” that is very infrequent in a way that isn’t a PITA to all of us? Bearing in mind that this isn’t about crazy crew, it’s about opportunistic joyriding. And, you know, sometimes GA got there years before the “heavy iron” did. I’ve done/do both. Try ForeFlight and then go back your black screen and pink line. Maybe the $13.95 idea has some merit?

[aeromech32254]

I was an airline mechanic for 19 years and have been taxi qualified in many different models of Fokker, Boeing, and Airbus. These aircraft do not have door locks, wheel locks, or ignition keys/locks. The security is a big fence, cameras, roving patrols, airport workers, etc. This guys job was moving aircraft around for parking, etc. Even if they had locks, he'd have the key.

I've thought several times that if I was willing to kill myself, there would be nothing preventing me from taking one of these airliners and taking off. Many times I've done high speed taxis on the runway (at night) to troubleshoot pilot write-ups for things like nose wheel shimmy.. There would always be two mechanics driving the plane but that was just for company rules. Just about on any given night I could have taken a plane. There's no way to prevent this. Prevention starts by the job interview and 10 year background check. Then years of service as well as classroom training. At that point if a guy goes nuts you can't place blame on anyone except him.

[Say Again, Over!]

Pretty much the only thing I can envision that could work in time is for the tower controller to push the button that makes the barricades pop up out of the pavement at all the hold short points.

OMG, I hope you jest! Anywhere else, I'd just laugh at the trolling, but I know someone, right now, is quoting you!

[West Coast]

Don‘t want to contemplate the logistics of that. How would you unlock them? Dozens to hundreds of keys for a Fleet managed by whom? How would keys be passed from one crew to another when they don‘t meet at the A/C and generic keys would be worthless.

Codes would require some way of frequently changing and notifying them as well.

Ground staff needs access to flight decks to tow A/C, so if you want to cover two-person only access you‘d need some dual code protocol.

All this sounds mightily expensive to avoid a very infrequent problem. Money should better be spent for real safety improvements like vertical profile WX radar, onboard ground weather radar reception, EVAS, etc. A lot of guys still have to fly around without ACARS and Non-mandatory A/C software updates get postponed for cost reasons in these low-cost days....

In absolute agreement, money is better spent in these areas.

[Vessbot]

OMG, I hope you jest! Anywhere else, I'd just laugh at the trolling, but I know someone, right now, is quoting you!
Yeah, I guess I better be more careful with that.

Then again, I would love to see it now in some dumbass article.

[Concours77]

I am no psychologist. This is supposition only. ATC was exemplary, and there is no reason to suggest another and different approach to convince the pilot to attempt a landing. He did good. But he was out of character, ATC needs to be direct and authoritative, it is in the job description.

So. The pilot is described as outgoing, smart, and compassionate. In the scheme of things, we give what we get, so any “personality” can be simply the result of what we want back from people. A “compliant”, and pleasing/pleasant person might not be amenable to soft understanding response from authority. ATC is authority, and morphing from authority into empathetic “buddy” might be the opposite of what is needed. People pleasers are generally subject to compliance, it gets learned into the dynamic.

“I am going to give you a heading, you need to comply, and get that aircraft configured.” “NOW!!...” “Beebo” sounds like a bit of a spoiled brat. Sweet nothings don’t work on such a person. He may have been “placated” all his life. It is clear that suicidal or not, he needed some talking to, by an authority, not a buddy.

imo

[West Coast]

The guy stole an airplane, likely with suicide on his mind, a stern talking to wouldn’t have done a thing to change his mind.

[tdracer]

Some of the questions posed on this thread are addressed in this Seattle Times article:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/we-were-all-screaming-oh-my-god%e2%80%8a-how-the-horizon-air-theft-and-crash-unfolded/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning+Brief+8-13-13_8_13_2018&utm_term=Active%20subscriber (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/we-were-all-screaming-oh-my-god%e2%80%8a-how-the-horizon-air-theft-and-crash-unfolded/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Mor ning+Brief+8-13-13_8_13_2018&utm_term=Active%20subscriber)

As has been noted, the area where the aircraft was parked is quite near the departure area at the north end of SeaTac - from the point he started moving until he took off was likely only a couple minutes (especially since he took off without any clearance, in front of another departing aircraft). I'm mildly impressed that ATC even noticed he was there prior to his taking off.

BTW, the earlier 5 minute F-15 response time posted earlier (that was repeatedly attacked) appears to have been pretty reasonable:About 130 miles south of Sea-Tac, two F-15C jets of 142nd Fighter Wing, on alert round-the-clock to defend an area between Northern California and the San Juan Islands, took off.

Armed with missiles and a six-barrel cannon, and capable of flying at two-and-a-half times the speed of sound, the planes closed most of the distance to Sea-Tac in four minutes, creating a sonic boom on their way. They were ordered, the North American Aerospace Defense Command said, to try to direct the plane over the Pacific Ocean.

[Concours77]

The guy stole an airplane, likely with suicide on his mind, a stern talking to wouldn’t have done a thing to change his mind.


Likely not. But playing the hero talking the guy off the ledge didn’t work either.

[Ollie Onion]

So I assume that unaccompanied ground staff are now a thing of the past and ALL ground staff must now go through more rigorous security checks and only be permitted to the Apron in pairs, we could call it the ‘two on the apron rule’.......... right?

[Out Of Trim]

Antagonising the guy also may have made things worse.. What if he then decided to take out the Control Tower with him!

[aerobat77]

and please let us not forget that this is not a suicidal pilot story

he never was a pilot .

( before we step into a debate of mental health of pilots )

[Concours77]

and please let us not forget that this is not a suicidal pilot story

he never was a pilot .

( before we step into a debate of mental health of pilots )

point well taken.

[Lord Farringdon]

I am no psychologist. This is supposition only. ATC was exemplary, and there is no reason to suggest another and different approach to convince the pilot to attempt a landing. He did good. But he was out of character, ATC needs to be direct and authoritative, it is in the job description.

So. The pilot is described as outgoing, smart, and compassionate. In the scheme of things, we give what we get, so any “personality” can be simply the result of what we want back from people. A “compliant”, and pleasing/pleasant person might not be amenable to soft understanding response from authority. ATC is authority, and morphing from authority into empathetic “buddy” might be the opposite of what is needed. People pleasers are generally subject to compliance, it gets learned into the dynamic.

“I am going to give you a heading, you need to comply, and get that aircraft configured.” “NOW!!...” “Beebo” sounds like a bit of a spoiled brat. Sweet nothings don’t work on such a person. He may have been “placated” all his life. It is clear that suicidal or not, he needed some talking to, by an authority, not a buddy.

imo
I'm not sure that going Full Metal Jacket on him, with something like "what is your major malfunction numbnuts?" would have been the best course of action. That approach proved costly for Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in the movie! The point is that this guy was effectively holding a weapon to the controller's head. He needed to be calmed down in order to get him to be compliant, not agitated with authoritarian commands. I think the softly softly approach in these circumstances is almost instinctive, and I think the outcome was the best that could be expected. It certainly could have been a helluva lot worse. But yes, the controller did an excellent job.

[Lord Farringdon]

I've been following this thread from post to post but perhaps I have missed something. Does anyone know why the aircraft actually crashed? I mean, was he conducting another aerobatic manoeuvre that, like his 'barrel roll', fell apart in execution and this time had no means of escape? Or was it a deliberate CFIT? I'm guessing this is what the accident investigation will be attempting to determine. Has anyone heard if the FDR and CVR have been recovered?

[TWT]

Part of the recorded radio conversation from 'Rich'

" I think I'm gonna try to do a barrel roll, and if that goes good, I'm just gonna nosedown and call it a night.”

Make of that what you will. No doubt the recorders, if they are viable, will reveal what actually happened.

[VacantStand]

flightglobal.com/news/articles/fbi-recovers-recorders-from-crashed-horizon-q400-451092/

'The Federal Bureau of Investigation has recovered the flight data recorder and "components" of the cockpit voice recorder from the wreckage of a stolen Horizon Air Bombardier Q400 that crashed outside Seattle on 10 August.'

'The FBI does not specify the condition of the cockpit voice or cockpit data recorders, both of which are now with the National Transportation Safety Board for processing, it says.'

[Martin_123]

other thing : is a q400 able to start from battery only or do you need an apu running or a gpu connected first ????


It can start from the battery as long as there's enough juice and you would need one engine completely stabilized before starting the other one. Generally battery start on a Q400 requires to go through a special check list and the procedure is not really recommended (not that this guy cared, just saying)

[aerobat77]

thanx martin ! another question : to be able for radio communication you have to engage the avionicd , correct ?

just trying to figure out how much time he needed minimum to start both engines , connect the generators and engage avionics before he was able to taxi out

[ZeBedie]

I've been following this thread from post to post but perhaps I have missed something. Does anyone know why the aircraft actually crashed? I mean, was he conducting another aerobatic manoeuvre that, like his 'barrel roll', fell apart in execution and this time had no means of escape? Or was it a deliberate CFIT? I'm guessing this is what the accident investigation will be attempting to determine. Has anyone heard if the FDR and CVR have been recovered?

He said he was losing an engine. Did he run out of fuel?

[Fargoo]

and please let us not forget that this is not a suicidal pilot story

he never was a pilot .

( before we step into a debate of mental health of pilots )

A pilot is a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft. Semantics but not wrong to call him a pilot.

If you steal a car but don't have a driving licence you are still the "driver".

[aerobat77]

fargoo... nice ... but like said previously not to be confused with the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft as a profession for a living .

....before somebody takes this event to call for more menthal health checks on this group of people...

[wiggy]

I’m doing some DIY woodworking this afternoon but I don’t think I would ever describe myself as a “carpenter”
“
(Shorter Oxford English Dictionary - A craftsman in woodwork esp. of rough solid kinds as in house or shipbuilding..)

As aerobat says let’s not use this accident as an excuse to increase mental health checks on pilots...the victim here was a ground agent trying to pilot/fly an aircraft.

[cowl flaps]

Just a quick question, people.
What will happen as far as the insurance is concerned ? All null & void as no qualified pilot in command,-
or how can the insurers weasel their way out of it.
Do aircraft that are hijacked still have insurance cover ??

[GarageYears]

I believe the last radio call from the aircraft mentioned "I feel like one of my engines is going out or something..." and in several prior transmissions he noted the fuel was dropping rapidly:

Rich: I’m down to 21 hundred, I started like 30 something.

ATC: Rich you said you had 2,100 pounds of fuel left?

And later:

Rich: Yeah I don’t know what the burnage... burnout... is like on take-off, but yeah it’s burned quite a bit faster than I expected.

It would seem likely he ran out fuel? From prior PPRuNe posts,GY it seems the Q400 fuel burn rate was noted to be 1800lbs/hr holding and 2700lbs/hr margin rate. I believe the stolen aircraft was in the air for at least an hour, which lines up with the numbers in the radio transmissions.

- GY

[pattern_is_full]

...not to be confused with the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft as a profession for a living...

...or the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft just for the fun of it, or to get themselves places. Not all licenses are ATP or Commercial.

But we get the point.

[RobertS975]

The crash site didn't seem like a plane that ran out of fuel... quite a post-impact fire.

[Concours77]

The crash site didn't seem like a plane that ran out of fuel... quite a post-impact fire.

Perhaps what fuel was left ignited the heavily forested (and flammable) crash site? Do they have the pilot’s remains? I think toxicology May play a part in the investigation.

[Photonic]

The crash site didn't seem like a plane that ran out of fuel... quite a post-impact fire.

It's been VERY dry here in the Puget Sound area, until we had rain on Saturday (post episode). It wouldn't take much to start a fire in that area with whatever fuel remained, or even just hot engine parts.

[gpzz]

I'm not sure that going Full Metal Jacket on him, with something like "what is your major malfunction numbnuts?" would have been the best course of action. That approach proved costly for Gunnery Sergeant Hartman in the movie! The point is that this guy was effectively holding a weapon to the controller's head. He needed to be calmed down in order to get him to be compliant, not agitated with authoritarian commands. I think the softly softly approach in these circumstances is almost instinctive, and I think the outcome was the best that could be expected. It certainly could have been a helluva lot worse. But yes, the controller did an excellent job.

Who knows what would have worked in this type of situation. Hindsight is truly golden. The guys thinking could have turned on a dime and next thing we've got half of downtown looking like a bad B movie.
I can't imagine being that ATC guy trying to think of the right words to say to someone who's mind has flipped and who at any second could have pulled the pin through a misplaced turn of the yoke with fuel running out. But it does seem to be the common approach to use gentle nurturing vocabulary in these situations.

[Martin_123]

thanx martin ! another question : to be able for radio communication you have to engage the avionicd , correct ?

just trying to figure out how much time he needed minimum to start both engines , connect the generators and engage avionics before he was able to taxi out

radios are rather simple on the q400 - you turn the knob and it's on, same goes for all the displays and everything.. If someone's intention is to steal the plane and crash it, I doubt they will follow normal flow and checklists - with this in mind, you could probably get it airborne within 5 minutes from cold and dark.

[Alber Ratman]

radios are rather simple on the q400 - you turn the knob and it's on, same goes for all the displays and everything.. If someone's intention is to steal the plane and crash it, I doubt they will follow normal flow and checklists - with this in mind, you could probably get it airborne within 5 minutes from cold and dark.

Longest thing with avionics is aligning AHARS or IRS for Nav and FMS setting for a flight plan.. If you are not bothered with that, the time it takes the screens to come up (although lots of info does not come up on the screens until the former items have run their alignment). There is of course... those standby instruments that of course do not need much time to warm up.

[Right Hand Thread]

...... implode......



That word doesn’t mean what you think it does.

I know what you are implying but that’s not the word you should be using.

[RVF750]

Basically, when he got to the aircraft it may well have been in a powered up state anyway. you need power for stuff like connecting laptops to test systems on the Q400. It's a DC airplane. Nothing out of he ordinary to start the APU to connect DC generator to disconnect the GPU to move the aircraft. Connect Tug, disconnect park brake then move aircraft. Brakes on in Tug, get out put park brake on in aircraft then go out and move tug away. Once inside, close door and startin gis pretty easy. The FADEC means a start doesn't really require Condition levers to move at the right point, etc. If it had flown in, it would have had an hour's fuel plus final reserve. maybe 1000-1200lbs on board? maybe a bit less if the APU had run a while.. It wouldn't have been rocket science to get one up and running to fly. Tower would probably have been the last frequency on the ARCDU anyway.

All in all a real shame in every way. Mental Health is the big topic of the day, and so much more needs to be done in all parts of society to catch and help those who suffer. RIP Rich.

[diffident]

The one thing I'm surprised at by reading this thread, is how the viewpoints of many differ in so many ways. Obviously, this chap was considerably disturbed by something in his life, that significantly impaired normal thinking. It doesn't mean however, that because he was thinking irrationally, that he wasn't capable of carrying out rational tasks. For example, he got to the airport without incident (we assume).

In accessing the aircraft, for which he had the requisite permitted company clearance, and with the job he had, he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what".

I agree that an airline pilot type-rated on the Q400, is a very professional post. I disagree that only a fully-trained, fully-qualified, type-rated person is capable in any capacity to get a Q400, or any commercial aircraft airborne.

Here's where I'm likely to draw comments taking my post out of context.... regardless of aircraft type, and the complexities of electronic systems - the basic principles of flight remain the same.

[Pilot DAR]

The one thing I'm surprised at by reading this thread, is how the viewpoints of many differ in so many ways. Obviously, this chap was considerably disturbed by something in his life, that significantly impaired normal thinking. It doesn't mean however, that because he was thinking irrationally, that he wasn't capable of carrying out rational tasks. For example, he got to the airport without incident (we assume).

In accessing the aircraft, for which he had the requisite permitted company clearance, and with the job he had, he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what".

I agree that an airline pilot type-rated on the Q400, is a very professional post. I disagree that only a fully-trained, fully-qualified, type-rated person is capable in any capacity to get a Q400, or any commercial aircraft airborne.

Here's where I'm likely to draw comments taking my post out of context.... regardless of aircraft type, and the complexities of electronic systems - the basic principles of flight remain the same.

I too believe that a low experience "pilot" could get a Dash 8 airborne, if they'd done their homework. Back in my airline days, I was a 250 hour 172 pilot (my role at the airline was not as a pilot). However, I did have casual use of the DC-8-63 full motion simulator. By reading the flight manual, I was able to teach myself to fly the sim. I never had any dual, nor a co pilot, it was all solo, at night, and requiring an approach to "find" the runway for landing. I never had any problem returning the "aircraft" to the button of the runway for it's next use. If I could do it, I'm sure anyone else could too, considering that there is much more easily available simulation available now then was ever imagined 35 years ago...

[Airbubba]

NTSB Preliminary Report, they indicate that they will not open a docket or publish a final report:

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

National Transportation Safety Board Aviation Accident Preliminary Report

Location: Steilacoom, WA Accident Number: WPR18FA220
Date & Time: 08/10/2018, 2043 PDT
Registration: N449QX
Aircraft: De Havilland DHC8
Injuries: 1 Fatal
Flight Conducted Under: Unknown

On August 10, 2018, about 2043 Pacific daylight time, a De Havilland DHC-8-402, N449QX, was destroyed when it impacted trees on Ketron Island, near Steilacoom, WA. The noncertificated pilot was fatally injured. The airplane was registered to Horizon Air Industries Inc. and operated by the individual as an unauthorized flight. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed in the area at the time of the accident, and no flight plan was filed. The airplane departed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, Seattle, Washington, about 1932 for an unknown destination. Horizon Air personnel reported that the individual was employed as a ground service agent and had access to the airplanes on the ramp. The investigation of this event is being conducted under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The NTSB provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and any material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. The NTSB does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket.

Aircraft and Owner/Operator Information Aircraft Make: De Havilland Registration: N449QX
Model/Series: DHC8 402
Aircraft Category: Airplane
Amateur Built: No
Operator: Operating Certificate(s) Held: Flag carrier (121)
Meteorological Information and Flight Plan Conditions at Accident Site: Visual Conditions
Condition of Light: Observation Facility, Elevation: KTIW, 292 ft msl
Observation Time: 2053 PDT
Distance from Accident Site: 8 Nautical Miles
Temperature/Dew Point: 18°C / 14°C
Lowest Cloud Condition:
Wind Speed/Gusts, Direction: 7 knots / , 240°
Lowest Ceiling:
Visibility: 10 Miles
Altimeter Setting: 29.98 inches Hg
Type of Flight Plan Filed: None
Departure Point: Seattle, WA (SEA)
Destination:
Wreckage and Impact Information Crew Injuries: 1 Fatal
Aircraft Damage: Destroyed
Passenger Injuries: N/A
Aircraft Fire: On-Ground
Ground Injuries: N/A
Aircraft Explosion: None
Total Injuries: 1 Fatal
Latitude, Longitude: 47.148056, -122.637500 (est)
Administrative Information Investigator In Charge (IIC): Debra J Eckrote
Additional Participating Persons:
Note: The NTSB traveled to the scene of this accident.

https://t.co/0Nk2UnXIYx

[IcePaq]

I'm pretty sure he did what he said he was going to do which was pull off the maneuver and then nose in and call it a night.

[KKoran]

diffident,

Why do you think that as a baggage handler "...he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what""?

[FLGOFF]

...or the group of people who officially operate the flight controls of an aircraft just for the fun of it, or to get themselves places. Not all licenses are ATP or Commercial.

But we get the point.

A 'private pilot' is only a pilot when they are flying an aircraft, whereas pilots in a general sense are professionals who fly in order to deliver a service. It's a title with respect to someone's career, I hope you can agree that it would be fairly flawed to refer to oneself as a pilot day in day out based solely on the practice of flying a Cessna every other weekend.

[Joe_K]

diffident,

Why do you think that as a baggage handler "...he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what""?

"Russell worked as a member of Horizon’s tow team, Christenson said, and helped handle baggage for the airline.

Two-person tow teams are responsible for moving airplanes on the tarmac. One person drives a tow tug, pulling the plane. The other communicates with the tower from inside the airplane’s cockpit and can apply the plane’s brakes in an emergency, Christenson said.

Tow teams are trained how to use some airplane systems such as the auxiliary power unit, hydraulics and radios, said Christenson, who did not know Russell well."

from the Seattle Times, August 11

[keeprighton1974]

Why do you think that as a baggage handler "...he would have been familiar with at least the basic operations of the Q400, and most definitely would have been familiar with the cockpit layout and "what bits do what""?

He was unable to read-off his altitude or speed to ATC... that in itself dispels this wacky notion that was well prepared, with lots of home simulator time. No NTSB report to come... very convenient. The whole thing is a fairytale.

[Pilot DAR]

No NTSB report to come... very convenient.

Perhaps the NTSB have already provided all the information that they are ever likely to obtain about this event, and nothing more would be gained from the expense and effort of a detailed investigation. I don't think that the NTSB react to "convenience" one way or the other....

[Concours77]

Perhaps the NTSB have already provided all the information that they are ever likely to obtain about this event, and nothing more would be gained from the expense and effort of a detailed investigation. I don't think that the NTSB react to "convenience" one way or the other....

Heads up only, I won’t post the details here.. There is what seems to be a theory elsewhere that is erm, remarkable. It seems to me that this official story might bear some fruit if NTSB published a more complete report. Forewarned is forearmed. This occurrence is (thankfully) a very rare one, but wouidn’t more data arm the professionals on the ramp with better tools to foreclose repetition? Nothing more to be gained? Who decided that? Shouldn't Aviation professionals make that call?

[TWT]

The investigation of this event is being conducted under the jurisdiction of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The NTSB provided requested technical assistance to the FBI, and any material generated by the NTSB is under the control of the FBI. The NTSB does not plan to issue a report or open a public docket.

Copied from Post #172. Seems that the FBI decides what is released publicly in this case, not the NTSB.

[PukinDog]

Ok, I'll spell it out for you one more time - in color:
Suicidal people don't think or act rationally, so stop putting the blame-game onto him like he was a rationally thinking person.

Merely being suicidal and acting irrationally doesn't absolve someone from responsibility as if it equates to being insane or having a severe, low-functioning IQ level that prevents them from knowing right from wrong or understanding the consequences of their actions. People who commit crimes while acting irrationally are blamed and held accountable for their irrational acts in courts and other walks of life every day, including those motivated by suicide. In a botched attempt to kill oneself that harms others through recklessness or creating a hazard, the person attempting/creating isn't given a free pass. They'll be blamed/charged/held accountable even in cases of diminished capacity where impulses got the better of them if they knew what they were doing was wrong or knew it posed a hazard to others.

While you may not agree, and erroneously believe that awareness-of and ability to make alternative of choices automatically ceases to exist in all suicidal people and are therefore blameless, that's the way it is. There's no free pass for all decisions one makes or their consequences just because they expressed the intent to not hurt anyone else.

From his communication with ATC there's no question he was aware what he had done/was doing was wrong (says guys like him should go to prison), that it was dangerous with the potential to harm others (said he didn't want to, showing recognition that it could), and that there would be consequences for his actions (again prison, potentially hurting someone, get shot down, get roughed up, negatively affecting loved ones, etc etc). He was obviously high-functioning enough to hold a job, get married, go to college, travel the world, and narrate videos that show no sign of a severely low IQ level.

He may have been troubled, unstable, depressed, pissed-off at life, or whatever it was that caused him to be suicidal, but as to the question of him knowing he had other choices with regards to method those reasons are irrelevant. There many, many methods that don’t involve committing a series of federal crimes, creating enormous hazards to others, and destroying millions of dollars worth or property. He was aware of those other choices, and the act itself and all his communication points to him having consciously made the reckless and criminal choices he did instead. He wanted to joyride awhile in an airplane and then try his hand at some aerobatics I supposed to see if real life was like his games over 70 minutes while refusing continuous offers for help along the way, then go out with a bang.

If he had somehow survived he’d be facing a long stretch in Federal prison once it was established he knew what he was doing was wrong and made those choices anyway, no matter how bad or irrational it was to do so. Being suicidal doesn't give one the right to commit crimes, recklessly endanger others, or destroy millions of dollars worth of property. Successfully killing oneself while doing all the aforementioned doesn't magically earn them a pardon.

[PukinDog]

Heads up only, I won’t post the details here.. There is what seems to be a theory elsewhere that is erm, remarkable. It seems to me that this official story might bear some fruit if NTSB published a more complete report. Forewarned is forearmed. This occurrence is (thankfully) a very rare one, but wouidn’t more data arm the professionals on the ramp with better tools to foreclose repetition? Nothing more to be gained? Who decided that? Shouldn't Aviation professionals make that call?


The FBI will obviously be the lead Agency as the incident was a purposeful act involving a string of Federal crimes being committed. The NTSB investigators will of course be at the FBI's disposal to investigate aviation-related matters and aviation tech issues to whatever extent is necessary for the over-riding and ongoing criminal investigation. As law enforcement, the FBI has investigative powers that Agencies like the NTSB don't have when it comes to interviewing people who might be associated with the perpetrator, establishing who was what and where when it was it was happening, and can dig into backgrounds and records to try and establish or eliminate motive far more deeply than the NTSB can. When the investigation is underway and it becomes established what happened that day undoubtedly as lapses in security are found recommendations and input will be asked-for from those familiar with logistics of how it could be handled.

The lack of an NTSB final report itself is meaningless. Even within their domain NTSB only makes recommendations that are not legally mandated, nor are they set up for criminal investigations or to produce findings with respect to criminal acts. The aircraft accident investigation is still there, but just a small part of a much larger and encompassing criminal one being conducted by the FBI who aren't going to only want to know "what happened" and ways to prevent it from happening again, but why he did it as well.

"Why he did it" questions also directly pertain to preventing a future occurrence, and to this end many be questions will be asked and much records-digging conducted re his finances, marital problems/extramarital affairs, substance abuse, history of mental health going back as far as they can, career underachievement/job satisfaction, family relationships, what was going on with his college, others sources of stress, his video game obsession, his approaching 30th birthday, etc etc etc. Anything relating to whatever he said over the radio will certainly be looked-at, especially his side comments about his employment/employer as it shouldn't be forgotten that the greatest damage he did was to his own company, and he commented about wages, "higher-ups taking notice" of what he was doing, and a perceived lack of opportunity for advancement. He may have tried to sound like he was joking, but something made him think of them.

Plus, his wife and family won't be able to just issue a public statement like they have and then clam-up when it's FBI investigators doing the asking in the course of their investigation. The FBI can compel answers if they aren't forthcoming during interviews. As one who would normally know him best in a healthy relationship, his wife will naturally be the focus of much questioning, and undoubtedly it was noticed that in the course of his conversations with ATC mentioning "those who love me" he failed to specifically mention her.

As a general rule it's not a great idea for the NTSB to publicly publish all the ways security was/could be breached and an aircraft successfully stolen from the middle of a busy airport like SeaTac. Inside job or not, air carrier-related common strategy and security measures aren't normally for public consumption. The accident wasn't a result of mechanical issues, weather, or a breakdown of CRM in the cockpit, it was the result of someone purposely committing numerous crimes. Any aircraft accident where they know (like this one) or it's revealed during an NTSB/FAA investigation that a crime may have contributed, it becomes the FBI's domain.

[Ripline]

After he (presumably) disconnect the tug, how did he get back on board? Does this model have built-in air stairs, or would the re-entry to the cockpit require a ladder which he then kicked away before closing whichever entry point to the aircraft? Just curious....

[arketip]

After he (presumably) disconnect the tug, how did he get back on board? Does this model have built-in air stairs, or would the re-entry to the cockpit require a ladder which he then kicked away before closing whichever entry point to the aircraft? Just curious....

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/754x501/dsc_0131_754x501_0f27b0f26fcd16eafad17225755a2dbf5c28d404.jp g

[Concours77]

At the end, did he try to safely land, intentionally crash into land (suicide), run out of fuel? Just curious if we know what his final state of mind and intentions were

Reporting wreckage and human remains... did he have a crash site in mind or did he just want to not drown?

there is no way to make this less mysterious without more data. Joy ride, some acro, banter with center and a face plant.

end of.

[mnttech]

At the end, did he try to safely land, intentionally crash into land (suicide), run out of fuel? Just curious if we know what his final state of mind and intentions were
Or did one of the loops cause the aircraft to break?

[oscar zoroaster]

Or did one of the loops cause the aircraft to break?

I have not heard the final communications with ATC. He had been fairly verbal and transparent during the flight portions which were released early on.

[deSitter]

I was an airline mechanic for 19 years and have been taxi qualified in many different models of Fokker, Boeing, and Airbus. These aircraft do not have door locks, wheel locks, or ignition keys/locks. The security is a big fence, cameras, roving patrols, airport workers, etc. This guys job was moving aircraft around for parking, etc. Even if they had locks, he'd have the key.

I've thought several times that if I was willing to kill myself, there would be nothing preventing me from taking one of these airliners and taking off. Many times I've done high speed taxis on the runway (at night) to troubleshoot pilot write-ups for things like nose wheel shimmy.. There would always be two mechanics driving the plane but that was just for company rules. Just about on any given night I could have taken a plane. There's no way to prevent this. Prevention starts by the job interview and 10 year background check. Then years of service as well as classroom training. At that point if a guy goes nuts you can't place blame on anyone except him.

This is the point often made to show how silly the security theater with which we indulge ourselves with has become. In a practical sense, there just isn't any way to operate a busy airport without there being people around who can cause a lot of trouble if they pop a few mental rivets. The objective should be to tighten that aspect of the process. Patrick Smith pointed out how ridiculous it was to have a soon-to-be-at-work pilot give up his spork during a shake down while the aircraft custodians had more or less a free run of the ramp and aircraft.

-drl

[aeromech32254]

how ridiculous it was to have a soon-to-be-at-work pilot give up his spork

As a Line Maintenance Lead Mechanic in uniform in MCO post 911, I was forced by security to either give up my ratchet or return it to my car (which I did). Mechanics need tools, right?

The strange thing is that every night maintenance employees would park at a satellite lot and the company van would pick us up. In that case we could bring all the tools, knives, etc we wanted because we would drive up to a security gate and just show our badges. They never checked inside

[cthruit]

at an international airport

-you would get every attention when you startup the engines without any startup clearance and with no flightplan of this aircraft in the system

- you would surely trigger a full blown alert when you start to taxi an aircraft without radio communication to ground , without startup and taxi clearance and without any flightplan issued .

i,m wondering how he made it to takeoff position on the runway ??? i would expect you would be blocked with e.g a fire truck to reach the runway in such a case

Startup clearance is not required at US airports. They use gate hold procedures, when required. In any case, I don't believe that startup clearance is a mechanism designed to thwart the theft of aircraft. I believe it is a mechanism designed to avoid ground congestion, conserve fuel to avoid ground turnbacks due to insufficient fuel, limit unnecessary noise, prevent baggage and fueling operations from being impeded, etc. Also, I seriously doubt that the fire brigade has trained on a procedure for stopping aircraft. The airport is not Hollywood. It is a professional workplace. There have been umpteen million legitimate airport movements worldwide for every one of these type events. You cannot plan for every possibility. To do so, would be ever more expensive and cumbersome. To dream up solutions for this highly-specific and rarely-occurring problem is easy. To come up with solutions for the broader issue, mental health, is much tougher -- but the payoff would be much higher.

[cthruit]

I'm not convinced that his intention was to kill himself at the time he made the decision to take the aircraft. He may have made the decision inflight, as the seriousness of his action fully dawned on him. One of the characteristics of many types of personality disorders is poor impulse control. These people get an idea in their head that becomes overpowering and they find themselves unable to stop, even though they are dimly aware of the possible consequences. Many prescription medications can also disrupt normal thought processes and lead to poor impulse control and suicidal ideation. I think that this MAY be the issue behind many of the headlines of late (Robin Williams? Anthony Bourdain? Mass shootings?) The percentage of Americans who regularly take some type of psychotropic drug is staggering (and increasing). According to a recent article in The Washington Post, "more than a third of American adults take prescription drugs linked to depression."

[ZeBedie]

I have some sympathy for him when he acknowledges that he's looking at life in jail - try to recover the situation, land the aircraft in one piece and a lifetime in jail is your reward - not much incentive to bring the aircraft back. Sadly, I guess it has to be that way to stop anyone else.

I've not flown a Q400 myself, but based on comments from those who have, could it be this guy was the only person to ever enjoy flying one? Although poorly executed, his barrel roll was flown with gusto.

[Intruder]

Startup clearance is not required at US airports. They use gate hold procedures, when required. Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...

[Vessbot]

Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...

Start clearances are a rarity in the US. Judging from the size of the cargo ramp in question, I am virtually certain that there would be no one to issue a start clearance or a pushback clearance there. The first interaction the aircraft would have with any type of required control is Ground on the movement area, and it's several plane lengths from where the ramp ends and movement area begins, to the runway; leaving too little time for anyone to react after eyebrows being raised. Bottom line, there's nothing odd looking here.

[cthruit]

Not true in general. Pushback and start clearances are required at many US airports. For example, at LAX I've received clearance for pushback, but hold start until some other aircraft cleared...
A specific engine start clearance must be received before the engines may be started at all of the major airports to which I fly outside the US. Startup clearance, per se, is not required at US airports. It is permissible to start the engines and run them at idle power without receiving an ATC clearance. Mechanics do it all the time. To move the aircraft may or may not require ATC permission, depending on the area. Some apron areas are uncontrolled, or are unofficially controlled by non-ATC entities. At ORD, the 6th busiest airport in the world, the cargo ramp from which I operate is uncontrolled -- strictly self-announce like UNICOM at a little airport. It was formerly controlled by UPS, but they no longer do so. I don't know why they stopped -- maybe a liability concern. We push back and start engines there without any clearance from anyone (of course, we have our ATC route clearance). Without any clearances from anyone, we taxi to and hold short of the taxiway and contact ground control. If an airport has gate hold procedures in effect, then we must obtain permission beforehand, even in an uncontrolled area. My domicile is LAX. We must request pushback clearance there from ground control because we are pushing back onto a taxiway controlled by them. We do not request clearance to start engines because it is not required. Of course, if ATC were to request that we not start engines due to a light aircraft taxiing behind, we would comply. But at most (all?) big airports outside the USA, you must request an engine start clearance along with a pushback clearance. You will get cleared for both at the same time or you will get cleared for one, and later, the other.

[cthruit]

According to one of the pilots heard on ground control frequency, the DHC-8 came out of Cargo 1, which is adjacent to the threshold of 16L. Very, very short taxi time to 16C, from where he took off. According to my charts, Cargo 1 is controlled by 126.87, which has everything north of taxiway N. That is a lot of apron area (airplanes) to control. It is essentially one half of the passenger terminal and almost all of the cargo areas. Very easy to see how a DHC-8 all the way at the opposite end of where the majority of your movements are occurring could slip out undetected by the ramp controller. And, for all we know, the ramp controller may have attempted to contact him on 126.87. Or the ramp controller may have picked up the phone and informed ground control of the errant aircraft. Not that there was much time to do anything about it.

[SASless]

Stolen Airplanes is not a new thing.


https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/pilot-runs-amok-in-sky-74-years-before-the-sea-tac-airliner-theft-a-saskatchewan-man-took-a-stolen-bomber-for-a-wild-ride-over-vancouver/wcm/7299a4ea-b7b9-44e3-b132-07a66e168daf#Echobox=1534875608A

[KenV]

Stolen Airplanes is not a new thing.
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/pilot-runs-amok-in-sky-74-years-before-the-sea-tac-airliner-theft-a-saskatchewan-man-took-a-stolen-bomber-for-a-wild-ride-over-vancouver/wcm/7299a4ea-b7b9-44e3-b132-07a66e168daf#Echobox=1534875608AIndeed they are not. A Marine mechanic stole an A-4 Skyhawk and took it for a joyride. Safely landed it also, with no injuries or damage done, other than to his career. EDIT: This adventure killed his military career, but his civilian aviation career is very notable.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-tale-of-when-a-marine-mechanic-stole-an-a-4-skyhawk-1745015819

[nonsense]

A Marine mechanic stole an A-4 Skyhawk and took if for a joyride. Safely landed it also, with no injuries or damage done, other than to his career.

https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-tale-of-when-a-marine-mechanic-stole-an-a-4-skyhawk-1745015819

It doesn't seem to have done his career much harm either:
HAF Industries BOD_Howard (http://www.hafindustries.com/BOD_Howard)