Single seat instruction

[Treble one]

With the coming of the F-35 to the RAF/RN inventory, I was just musing about the change in flying instruction required to get the guys through the OCU in a single seat jet..

With other modern FJ of course you usually have a twin seat option (mostly), so you have someone in the boot casting a watchful eye over the stude in the front.

I'm sure there are many QFI's/QWI's/QPI's out there who either have a view or some practical experience. I'm assuming synthetic training plays an exceedingly large part in the OCU course of single seat FJ's? And of course, every second in the air will be recorded and downloadable for post sortie debriefs.

Happy to hear any thoughts.
Thanks
TO

[heights good]

The very short version, pilots will utilise simulators a LOT more than with previous aircraft such as Tornado.

[Mr. Vice]

The Typhoon OCU is now pretty much a single seat OCU. Modern technology in aircraft like the F35 and Typhoon mean that they are easier to fly domestically and have a lot more in built flight control protection. They bite you a lot less.

Simulators are also getting so much better. It makes the cost of producing a 2 seat training variant of an aircraft simply not worth it.

Mr Vice.

[Background Noise]

Considerably easier with modern simulators and aircraft that are 'relatively easy' to fly - consider many others such as the Hunter, Lightning and Harrier which all came into service as single seaters before trainer versions were developed, and there was never a dual control Buccaneer either.

[Just This Once...]

Yep, hardly a new concept and it must have been an interesting exercise on an aircraft as demanding as an F-8, especially against a carrier. In the wartime environment the first Spitfire sortie could not have been easy either.

Time and technology have made the absence of a trainer variant a bit of a non-event but the F-35B in UK service will have its own challenges beyond initial conversion. The plan is for a serious percentage of day-to-day training will be conducted in the simulator rather than an aircraft. There are some technical and operational security reasons for extra sim time but the UK is also looking to save money by flying the aircraft as infrequently as possible.

There are risks with this, especially on the engineering and logistics side, as it is easy to call an aircraft serviceable when it does not do a trip. We may find that our first stressing of a fleet will come during war fighting and the true answer to our latent capability may be vapourware. It also makes nonsense of on-the-job training for frontline technicians and we have examples from other fleets where trade groups could do multiple tours without ever doing their primary role (eg sooties that have never attempted an engine change). It also makes keeping manning levels at the correct level for ops challenging when workload is so low in peacetime.

On the pilot side the long-term effect on air skills with so little non-synthetic flying is not fully understood. Some of us question the potential skill-fade several years down the line from flying training. Quite a few more of us have questioned the retention factor if we only give pilots single-digit hours per month whilst drowning them in sims and assorted ground trivia.

[Bob Viking]

I hear everything you’re saying. My honestly held belief is that F35 would make a much better second tour than a first.

As a JP straight out of training I would be very excited to get my hands on a brand new F35. However, for various reasons (airmanship, experience and knowledge amongst others) I think guys would be much better placed to have a tour under their belt before they transition to the limited flying on offer on an F35 squadron.

This is not a policy I have heard of, but simply the educated opinion of a QFI.

BV

[Danny42C]

In WWII, almost every RAF single seat pilot had 150 - 200 hours under his belt (the last third usually in the "Harvard" trainer). At OTU you read the "Pilot's Notes", had a good look round, listened to a bit of advice from a QFI, hopped in and flew. (The Spitfire was a welcome change from the Harvard - it was said the the Spit "was a good lead-in to the Harvard". Simulators hadn't been thought of.

Thousands of lads made out all right then - but I admit the F-35 might be a bit of a handful ab initio !

[F35Driver]

Quite a few good, accurate points made here by JTO et al. Perhaps I can add a bit more. If the recently graduated first UK ab initio course are anything to go by, they completed it to a very high standard and weren’t phased at all by the (almost) equal ratio of live and synthetic flying. The F35 simulator is very immersive and, to quote one student pilot: “first solo was fantastic and a bit of a non-event as it felt exactly like this simulator I did beforehand!” It’s a low risk and low cost way of getting people trained to a high standard.

Yes people joined to fly jets - and they absolutely will fly a good amount in F35 too - but much of the tactical sharpening of pilots is best served in the Sim where serious threat systems can be pitched against our tactics, techniques and procedures. It also allows pilots to gain confidence in the whole system’s capability.

It’s a different approach, that’s all. So far the feedback is wholly positive but we can veer and haul with learned experience.

[sycamore]

Bring back `Station Flight`..half a dozen old Hawks,or a few Grobs.....

[MPN11]

Bring back `Station Flight`..half a dozen old Hawks,or a few Grobs.....An Anson was more useful, perhaps? My second flight was on Anson T20, WJ514, of the Binbrook Station Flight, 13 April 1959. In fact I had 2 trips in it that day, for some strange reason. Flt Lt Jeremy ffolliott-Foster DFC was driving ... what a name to encourage the young to join up!!

[Fareastdriver]

When the Valiants shuddered to a halt at the end of 1965 a Chipmunk were issued to each squadron for the co-pilots to keep their hand in. We Direct Entry pilots had never flown a Chipmunk before, Provost and Jet Provost trained, so the Squadron QFI had to convert us. With a bit of effort one could knock up twenty hours a month.

The Station Anson was available for the captains but the facility was never taken up.

A VForce captain wouldn't be seen dead flying an Anson.

[orca]

Perhaps someone in the know can tighten me up - but when we did a study into the hours, both in the simulator and aircraft, for which we had budgeted for the F-35 pilots - it was borderline whether they’d actually be able to use them all if each and every trip benefited from a decent mission planning cycle.

Of course, some will contend that some hours should fall into the ‘simply slip the surly bonds’ category or indeed the ‘pitch up at sim with no AEA and run through some emergencies’ bucket...FWIW I disagree!

[Timelord]

Orca,
I agree. The manufacturers can build the most capable sims in the world but the hours in them are only any use if the aircrew put the same effort into the plan / brief / fly / debrief cycle that they would with live flying. My experience in the sim world was that this was not always the case. Good luck to the F35 people in using sims differently.

[Evalu8ter]

Joking aside, given that we'll soon have so few flying stations, a "station flight" would be a good idea (and not too expensive…honest). Potentially retention positive (working towards licenses perhaps) and for the Typhoon force in particular, a convenient way of moving people/parts from CGY to Lossie and Warton. A King Air as the modern day Anson and a couple of 120TPs (or, whisper it, soon to be surplus Tucanos) as tools and toys - especially for those in non-flying command posts in the Stn/Force HQ. Check-outs and back seats given for good behaviour - a bit like the recce Gazelles we used to have. With a general reduction in the amount of flying during training, for some aircrew, access to the like of the KA/Tucano would serve to broaden and develop their airmanship. For Odiham crews they could use them to fly between Odi and Benson to use the CAE Sim…save that awful drive through Reading….Sigh, not in this climate I'm afraid…..

As for Sim vs real, the new buzz is LVC - Live/Virtual Construct where in the (simulated) sunny uplands of the future the likes of TLT/Nitex will be flown by crews in both real and simulated aircraft - achieving that collective training "tick". From my experience of instructing in the Sim, the key, as Timelord suggests, was total immersion and a proper plan/brief cycle - including breaking away from 2 hour sorties. Some of the 4hr + multi-ships we did got really convincing as the crews "suspension of disbelief" became deeper, and the training, as a result, became even more valuable.

[brakedwell]

The Station Anson was available for the captains but the facility was never taken up.

A VForce captain wouldn't be seen dead flying an Anson.

Maybe a wondeful old cloth bomber was too tricky for a VForce Skygod

[bobward]

If we don't have two seat fast jets, what are Euan McGregor, Sophie Rayworth and Dan Snow going to ride in?

[Davef68]

If we don't have two seat fast jets, what are Euan McGregor, Sophie Rayworth and Dan Snow going to ride in?

Hawks or Grobs

[F35Driver]

Orca, you’re right. However, there is a simple issue with taking all your AEA to the sim. The helmet/visual implementation is different so you wouldn’t take the bone dome. I pretty much agree with the rest though: Mission plan, brief , execute and debrief as-real time.

[brakedwell]

Hawks or Grobs

or maybe an Anson.

[Treble one]

Thanks all for your considered views.

I'm presuming that most of the first tranche of pilots on the squadrons will already be experienced FJ pilots with a tour on the Tornado/Typhoon behind them?

I recall at the start of the Typhoon coming into service there was the odd ab initio pilot made his way straight from Valley.

[Davef68]

There was a post the other day on here or elsewhere that suggested a Typhoon pilot had completed the OCU course entirely on the simulator. Not sure if that was serious or not.

[Bob Viking]

The simulated OCU story is true and there are ab initios on F35 already.

BV

[John Eacott]

In WWII, almost every RAF single seat pilot had 150 - 200 hours under his belt (the last third usually in the "Harvard" trainer). At OTU you read the "Pilot's Notes", had a good look round, listened to a bit of advice from a QFI, hopped in and flew. (The Spitfire was a welcome change from the Harvard - it was said the the Spit "was a good lead-in to the Harvard". Simulators hadn't been thought of.

Thousands of lads made out all right then - but I admit the F-35 might be a bit of a handful ab initio !

Going slightly OT, but Dad arrived at his first Beaufighter NF squadron with about an hour on type, which was his 'check flight' with another pilot standing behind him then a few circuits to get his hand in: at the age of 19. Having been deemed no use to the job he was sent to test fly new Beau's for radar calibration for a month and racked up 40 hours on type.

Whilst doing this he had a squiz at a new Mosquito parked nearby, and was then offered the Pilot's Notes and 'take it for a spin'. Which he duly accepted and put the type in his logbook, duly qualified on type!

Happy days :cool:

[Treble one]

There was a post the other day on here or elsewhere that suggested a Typhoon pilot had completed the OCU course entirely on the simulator. Not sure if that was serious or not.

That was my post and as Bob says its true. it appeared in the chaps Biog when he was the Typhoon Display Pilot.

A bit surprised that there are ab initios on the F-35 course given we must have quite a lot of Tornado drivers to re-role (unless they are leaving for pastures new of course). If an experienced QFI can see the issues......

[Danny42C]

John Eacott (#23),
...Dad arrived at his first Beaufighter NF squadron with about an hour on type, which was his 'check flight' with another pilot standing behind him...
Better off than I with a Vultee Vengeance - there were just rudimentary controls in the back: a (detachable) stick, rudder bar and throttle, but nowt else. They put me in there; F/Sgt Reg Duncan (RCAF) got in front, took off, trimmed it and gave it to me to play with for 20 mins, then took it back and landed. Then I was a fully-fledged VV pilot !
...he had a squiz at a new Mosquito parked nearby, and was then offered the Pilot's Notes and 'take it for a spin'...
I would say that was pushing his luck a bit. The Mossie had a reputation for "not suffering fools gladly".

Happy days, indeed !

[Davef68]

A bit surprised that there are ab initios on the F-35 course given we must have quite a lot of Tornado drivers to re-role (unless they are leaving for pastures new of course). If an experienced QFI can see the issues......

MOD did a bit of PR on the pilots who were going straight from Valley to the F35 a little while back; first names only for security reasons.

[Treble one]

[QUOTE=Deliverance;10222497]I would be very surprised if it were true. There was much made of sim only prior to first flights for Typhoon, but I cannot think of anyone doing the rest of the OCU sim only. Refreshers don’t even do that.

It was an experiment to see if it was possible, and apparently this chap did it. It was a one off as I understand it.

[Rick777]

I'm not a FJ pilot. Got 130 hours in the T38 and then flew heavies mil and civ. There is little similarity between old simulators and modern ones. The first landing an airline pilot makes in a new airplane is with paying passengers in the back. Fighting an airplane is certainly much more difficult than simply flying one, but with all the computers in an F35 I doubt that it is harder to fly. Of course pilots need real stick time, but a sim is a better place to learn the basics.

[staircase]

I have been retired for 10 years now, but it is interesting reading this line of thread.

I was reminded of a story of a meeting at CFS in the ‘50s. It was attended by representatives of the fighter world, to discuss the training of pilots for the new Lightning that was to enter service without (at that time) a 2 seat version.

There was a long winded discussion when Air Commodore Atcherley stood up and said that he had never heard so much rubbish in his life.

He was reported to have pointed out that in 1938, when the first Hurricanes arrived, they were told to fly round for the first few hours not retracting the flap, leaving the wheels down and the hood open, all to get the old timers used to the new monoplanes.

He said it was rubbish then and it is rubbish now. We will get these young men and give them a Lightning, just as we gave them Spitfires, and they will show us how to fly them. Meeting closed.

As for simulator flying. My conversion to the B757 (all be it as an experienced captain of BAC 1-11) in the early 1990’s consisted of about 40 hours sim, followed by a 15 min circuit. The next day, with a training captain in the right hand seat, I was loading passenger for a trip to Palma. The new hostie that brought us a cup of tea would not believe it was only my second go at landing the jet.

[Danny42C]

stairccase (#31),

Was it "Batchy" ? (sounds just like him).He said it was rubbish then and it is rubbish now. We will get these young men and give them a Lightning, just as we gave them Spitfires, and they will show us how to fly them. Meeting closed.
Amen to that.

[teeteringhead]

Many years ago I had an aged (10 years younger than I am now!) Spec Air Sqn Ldr (initials DH) working for me. Went through his logbooks when he retired to find some "dits" for his retirement do.

Like many of his generation, he started flying in late 40s early 50s on Meteors then Hunters (including a Meteor in the Coronation Flypast - 600+ aircraft, all UK based!). I noticed a small number of Sabre hours; mindful he had never been on a Sabre Sqn, asked the background.

DH: "That was an exchange visit with USAF in Germany - a proper exchange: we flew their jets and they flew ours"

Moi: "But there were no two-seaters .......???"

DH: "No, they helped us start it up leaning in the cockpit, and left us a kneepad with useful speeds and limits. Then we got airborne and 'mixed it' with them flying ours and us flying theirs ..........!!"

An' ye tell that to young folk today ...........

[staircase]

Danny,

I was told the story by an elderly member of my first squadron, when I was caught 'pontificating' after a good lunch. He did say that he, (my elderly member - got to be a joke there somewhere!) had been attending the CFS meeting as the CFS agent for his type of aeroplane, and that it was Batchy.

However, since the tale was second hand and told to me more than 40 years ago.........

[Treble one]

Many years ago I had an aged (10 years younger than I am now!) Spec Air Sqn Ldr (initials DH) working for me. Went through his logbooks when he retired to find some "dits" for his retirement do.

Like many of his generation, he started flying in late 40s early 50s on Meteors then Hunters (including a Meteor in the Coronation Flypast - 600+ aircraft, all UK based!). I noticed a small number of Sabre hours; mindful he had never been on a Sabre Sqn, asked the background.

DH: "That was an exchange visit with USAF in Germany - a proper exchange: we flew their jets and they flew ours"

Moi: "But there were no two-seaters .......???"

DH: "No, they helped us start it up leaning in the cockpit, and left us a kneepad with useful speeds and limits. Then we got airborne and 'mixed it' with them flying ours and us flying theirs ..........!!"

An' ye tell that to young folk today ...........

In a similar vein, I knew a chap (WWII veteran Spitfire FR's) who then went on to be an CO of a sqdn (Meteors and Swifts (FR)), who had a visit from a SO in a Hunter. He'd never flown a Hunter before but he asked permission, was given the pilots notes, and went off and had himself a little sortie. Nice aircraft he told me!

[Danny42C]

staircase (#34),

"Batchy" (I reckon) would be an Air Commodore when he was appointed Commandant of the R.A.F. Flying College, Cranwell after the war. Retired as an Air Marshal 1959, RIP 1970. "More than 40 years ago" would fit.

Crossed his path in the '50s a couple of times: on the first occasion it was "Cap and gloves on - no chair/coffee/bikky. Next time was more amiable !

"They don't make 'em like that anymore", I'm afraid.

[Danny42C]

staircase,

'Arf a mo'! - "Batchy" was talking about the F-35 "Lightning" ???? First Flight of the
F-35 was not till 2006 [Wiki] - 36 years after he died ?

The only "Lightning" "Batchy" would know was the wartime US P-38 Lockheed "Lightning". Can't think of any others since till the F-35.

Crossed wires somewhere ?

[BEagle]

English Electric Lightning, Danny42C!! First entered RAF service in 1959 and served for almost 30 years.

A mighty fine aircraft, as any WIWOL will be sure to tell you....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3xVAxBM4RI

...over and over again!

[Danny42C]

teeteringhead and Treble One (#35),An' ye tell tha yooung folk today? And show them a page of ex-ATA girl Mary Ellis's (RIP) logbook ! ...........

[LOMCEVAK]

I always think that it would be an interesting start for a lecture to a group of pilots to ask them to put their hand up if they have ever flown a single seat aeroplane. Then you ask those who had prior training in a two-seat variant and/or a simulator to put their hand down, followed by asking those over age, say, 50 to put their hands down. There would not be many hands still raised.

As a graduation exercise at test pilots' school I wish that it was possible to give a student an Aircrew Manual or equivalent for a relatively simple single seat aircraft and then send them off to fly it. Sadly, we no longer train pilots to be able to fly like that.

[Minnie Burner]

English Electric Lightning, Danny42C!! First entered RAF service in 1959 and served for almost 30 years.

A mighty fine aircraft, as any WIWOL will be sure to tell you....


Stone me, Beags. I can't believe you walked into that......

[Danny42C]

BEagle (#38), and Minnie Burner (#41),

Oh, dear - worse than a "Short Term Memory Loss". Now I know for certain that I've finally "lost my marbles". Had to happen sometime, I suppose. ..........

Thanks for pointing it out so gently, BEags !

[Treble one]

teeteringhead and Treble One (#35), And show them a page of ex-ATA girl Mary Ellis's (RIP) logbook ! ...........

Danny, I once saw an ATA pilot's logbook (he was one of those 'rare' chaps who got the job) and it was suitably filled with numerous types from Spitfires and Hurricanes to Lancasters and Halifaxes...and of course, often on the same day.

[Danny42C]

LOMCEVAK (#40)
...Sadly, we no longer train pilots to be able to fly like that...
Reckon the USAAC had the right idea in 1941 when they made us fly our first 60 hours in the "Stearman" without ASIs. Taught us to fly "by the seat of our pants" - when all else fails.

Useful to me many times in the following years.

[teeteringhead]

(he was one of those 'rare' chaps who got the job) I assume this is irony 111 - ISTR 85% of the ATA were chaps.

[Treble one]

I assume this is irony 111 - ISTR 85% of the ATA were chaps.

It was teeteringhead.