Costs - am I in the right ballpark?

[agfoxx]

Hi guys,

Am I roughly in the right ballpark, please, for costs? I'm an NPPL (Microlight) holder with 150 hours or so + I have about 28 hours of non-microlights incl 7 hours P1 in non-microlights.

1) FAA PPL (because the FAA will give me credit for microlight hours) - £8K
2) FAA night rating - £1k
3) Hours: 80 in the USA = £6.5k (roughly) - reduction from 100 due to prior experience
4) CPL/IR/MEP @ FTA in Shoreham - £25K
5) ATPL theory via Bristol - £2.3K
6) Medical - £600
7) ATPL exam fees - £71*14 = £1K
8) USA flights, accommodation etc - £3K
9) MCC/JOC - £3K
10) Contingency - 10%.

So all in about £55K.

Does this sound right? What am I forgetting?

Thanks!

[agfoxx]

Thanks, yes, I've to taken that into account separately.

[Officer Kite]

7) ATPL exam fees - £71*14 = £1K


Blimey can't believe the UK CAA are charging that much :eek: Talk about taking the :mad: I did all 14 for 70eu!!

[MaverickPrime]

I would just double check that those NPPL hours count towards the issue of your CPL, especially if you decide to have it issued under a different state other than the UK.

[selfin]

What a bargain. The fees are 126 GBP/subject in Denmark and Greenland and 112 GBP in the Faroes.

because the FAA will give me credit for microlight hours

I assume you have determined, if it is applicable, that a UK Permit to Fly is considered an airworthiness certificate for the purpose of 14 CFR 61.51(j)? And also whether FCL.035(a)(1) of Part-FCL will be satisfied?

Hours: 80 in the USA = £6.5k (roughly) - reduction from 100 due to prior experience

This can be further reduced, up to a maximum of 30 hours, by pilot-in-command time in TMGs and sailplanes (Part-FCL, appendix 3, section E for the modular CPL(A)). It might not be cost effective to add a glider rating to a US private but the added value is substantial.

FAA night rating - £1k

That sum is excessive. Flight training for the night operating privilege is normally included in a standard FAA private pilot certificate course. If that training was foregone you may still enrol for a Part-FCL CPL(A) modular training course but it will require at least 5 hours of night flying training (Part-FCL, appendix 3, E.10(b)). It will probably be more efficient to cover the night experience requirements when doing the FAA training especially if building hours in the US. It may also be more efficient to obtain a US instrument rating followed by sufficient IFR flights to be eligible for a CB-IR course.

If you are not committed to training in the US then it may be worth knowing that 10 hours of pilot-in-command time on three-axis ultralights is creditable towards the Canadian PPL(A): see 421.26(6)(b)(ii)(C) in the Canadian Aviation Standards. For the purpose of 421.26(9)(c) on credits for foreign applicants note the interpretation for "aeroplane" given in 400.01(1) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations which states "aeroplane does not include an ultra-light aeroplane." The Canadian air exercises will be more familiar to you as they are almost identical to those used in UK and the rest of the Commonwealth.

Another benefit to Canadian training for persons who are neither nationals nor citizens of the US is the absence of TSA security threat assessment fees which may need pricing into your estimate. There are also no student visa or SEVIS-equivalent fees when studying or training in Canada for fewer than six months. The TSA fee is 130 USD for the US private pilot certificate and a separate training request, threat assessment, and fee is payable for the instrument rating. The MRV fee for the M-1 non-academic student visa is 160 USD and the I-901/SEVIS fee is 200 USD. The DSO at your chosen SEVP-certificated FAA Part 141 school will walk you through the steps and costs by telephone assuming these fees apply to you.

If you are interested in working in the US or Canada afterwards then say so as specific stratagems are easier, or are at least more time- and cost-effective, if followed from the start of this process.

[rudestuff]

Selfin beat me to it: Your figures are way out. Even with zero experience, you can get everything done for £35,000.

You already have 28 hours in an Airplane - so you need 12 more for an FAA Pvt Cert. That should cost you about £2,000, certainly nowhere near £8,000.

There is no such thing as an FAA night rating, it’s all included in the Private training so that won’t cost you anything.

The CPL requires 200 hours, so that should be the last thing you get - so work backwards from that. Get an FAA private, then go straight into the FAA IR (it all counts towards your 200 hours so you’re really only paying for the instruction) *If you do a part 141 IR course you can skip the 50 hours pic XC requirement. Once you’ve got that, do at least 50 hours of your hour building under IFR. If won’t be much fun, but you’ll qualify for the CBIR easy route (training as required). As an IR holder, your CPL course will be reduced to 15 hours which can be done in an SEP - so you never have to get your MEP rating.

[agfoxx]

Thanks guys, very useful.
I just put together a total of what's what in my logbook, and here's the result:

Total 162
Of which 3-axis microlights 38 P2, 34 P1
Gliders 56 P2, 3 P1
SEP 21 P2, 7 P1 (all flown in Russia so under ICAO but not EASA)
TMG 3 P2

What would you say is the best way for me to get some of these credited towards the future training?

Also, thanks for the advice about the Canadian CPL, - but I'm really hoping to stay in the UK, so it's probably better to go the EASA route, and certainly the EASA CPL/IR/MEP. I wouldn't discount working in Canada/US, but there's a whole different world of fun with visas etc waiting round the corner if I were to want to do that. So I think I'll stay here in the UK, thanks very much.

Thanks!

[Duchess_Driver]

I've said it before, but beware. In the US it is perfectly legal to log P1 hours if you're rated on the aeroplane and being trained by an instructor. In EASA this would be logged U/T.

I have had CPL applications rejected as the candidate did not posses enough P1 (according to EASA) for the issue of the rating as they 'disqualified' the P1 but training. Net result, more P1 hours required to meet the EASA 100 required mark.

[selfin]

What would you say is the best way for me to get some of these credited towards the future training?

Are all Member States rejecting three-axis ultra-light hours for the Part-FCL CPL(A)? The pilot-in-command hours on sailplanes and SEPs count towards the Part-FCL CPL(A). A further 27 hours on sailplanes or TMGs may be done, if you wish, as they will count towards the required 100 pilot-in-command hours. The head of training at your intended Part-FCL training organisation will be happy to assess your needs.

Crediting towards a US private with ASEL depends on which, if any, of the ultra-light hours satisfy 14 CFR 61.51(j). If in doubt consult with a Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) covering the intended training location. In the most favourable case, assuming all other 14 CFR 61.109(a) requirements have been met, only a further three hours of dual flight training in preparation for the practical test are necessary. For US licensing purposes note the interpretation of "cross country" made in 14 CFR 61.1(b).

As Duchess Driver has commented some hours are dressed up differently under US logging rules. For UK-granted Part-FCL licences the applicable rules are in the Air Navigation Order and it would be wise to brief the US-certificated flight instructor accordingly. The Canadian logging rules are very similar to those in UK.

thanks for the advice about the Canadian CPL

The information was for a Canadian PPL(A). The Canadian Aviation Standards recognise and credit prior SEP flying experience. A Canadian PPL(A) can be done without wasting time and money on TSA checks, visas, embassy appointments, fingerprinting, etc, and it may be converted into a standard US private without doing a practical flight test.

421.26(9)(c) An applicant who does not hold a Private or higher pilot licence - Aeroplane issued by a contracting state may be credited foreign dual and solo aeroplane flight training time and aeroplane ground school time towards the knowledge and experience requirements for the issue of a Private Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, if the applicant provides certification from the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane that all ground and flight training exercises have been satisfactorily reviewed.

[agfoxx]

Are all Member States rejecting three-axis ultra-light hours for the Part-FCL CPL(A)? The pilot-in-command hours on sailplanes and SEPs count towards the Part-FCL CPL(A). A further 27 hours on sailplanes or TMGs may be done, if you wish, as they will count towards the required 100 pilot-in-command hours. The head of training at your intended Part-FCL training organisation will be happy to assess your needs.

Crediting towards a US private with ASEL depends on which, if any, of the ultra-light hours satisfy 14 CFR 61.51(j). If in doubt consult with a Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) covering the intended training location. In the most favourable case, assuming all other 14 CFR 61.109(a) requirements have been met, only a further three hours of dual flight training in preparation for the practical test are necessary. For US licensing purposes note the interpretation of "cross country" made in 14 CFR 61.1(b).

As Duchess Driver has commented some hours are dressed up differently under US logging rules. For UK-granted Part-FCL licences the applicable rules are in the Air Navigation Order and it would be wise to brief the US-certificated flight instructor accordingly. The Canadian logging rules are very similar to those in UK.



The information was for a Canadian PPL(A). The Canadian Aviation Standards recognise and credit prior SEP flying experience. A Canadian PPL(A) can be done without wasting time and money on TSA checks, visas, embassy appointments, fingerprinting, etc, and it may be converted into a standard US private without doing a practical flight test.

Thank you, Selfin!

[Banana Joe]

I just want to say I did my ATPL in distance learning in Poland where the exams fees for all 14 subjects, including re-takes, are only 250 euro and don't even need to make any booking. You just show up when the session is open and tell the lady what exams you want to take.


​​​​​​You could do your ATPL theory with any school and do the exams in any other country.

I went with Bartolini and they use Bristol.

[Black Pudding]

Why the hell do you want to risk doing anything FAA if it's an EASA license you want to end up with.

[selfin]

What risk? For the OP the FAA system provides easier, faster, and cheaper access to Part-FCL licences and ratings.

The UK conversion report does not presently provide a pathway from a UK NPPL(M) to a Part-FCL PPL(A) and furthermore the OP's SEP hours will not count towards the latter although they are creditable towards a NPPL(SSEA). Unfortunately the NPPL(SSEA), if granted on or after 8 April 2018, cannot be converted to a LAPL(A). See conversion allowances at https://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviation/Pilot-licences/Convert/Conversion-table--UK-and-JAR-to-EASA-licences/

Any PPL(A) granted in accordance with ICAO Annex I is acceptable for commencing a Part-FCL CPL(A) modular training course and as both the US and Canada sensibly accept the OP's prior experience in credit towards their private pilot licences it makes perfectly good sense to use that path. Who knows, perhaps the OP fancies doing all this on floatplanes.

[rudestuff]

Why the hell do you want to risk doing anything FAA if it's an EASA license you want to end up with.

Because it's cheaper, easier and quicker?

[selfin]

Furthermore the Implementation Procedures for Licensing (IPL) under to the US–EU Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA (https://www.easa.europa.eu/document-library/bilateral-agreements/eu-usa)) should be close to completion.

A summary from several years ago can be found here https://www.fliegen-usa.de/app/download/9927411794/Pilot_Licensing_Summary.pdf?t=1476868866

[BAe 146-100]

This old adage still exists today - “train where you plan to fly”.

I would only suggest going down the FAA road first if you can work in the US or don’t wanna work in Europe, but jobs overseas for zero hours rated guys are slim, so its Europe like you said is where you wanna end up.

The cost saving in the US aint what it used to be and schools are as expensive over there that they ever been, plus when you come back to convert everything you have to dump a lot of what you learned over there in the theory side.

Learn in Europe.

[spitfirejock]

The "old adage" as quoted by the last poster, may still exist, but is it a good one?

Why do CAE (Oxford), L3 ( CTC), Lufthansa, to name just 3, all train pilots outside of Europe?

As for "convert everything" when you come back, it should be pointed out that skill tests for EASA PPL, MEP, CPL, & FI are carried out in the USA and elsewhere in the World after completion of the approved course, so nothing to convert, just straight to licence application with the Authority. Granted the EASA IR (initial) flight test (not the training) has to be done in European Airspace, but with the new CBIR options for reduced training, the process is proving simple and cost effective for many returning home after training abroad.

I actually know someone who spent just short of $45,000 in the USA achieving their EASA CPL/ME & FAA CPL/IR, spent around $4,500 at a well known school in Exeter, UK on the CBIR portion, completed the MCC/JOC (not sure what it cost them) and managed to get an FO position with a well known budget airline flying the 737-800 with Type Rating paid by them (which is paid back out of salary as I understand it) and has a total time flying in Europe of around 5 hours. Certainly an outstanding individual who achieved this, but I hope it makes the point, it doesn't matter where you learn to fly, what matters is the quality of training. Please also remember something else - do your own research and plenty of it before deciding - said many times before by many on this forum who genuinely try to help the newbees!

[rudestuff]

I actually know someone who spent just short of $45,000 in the USA achieving their EASA CPL/ME & FAA CPL/IR Great thinking but the FAA CPL was unnecessary (especially if they did it part 61 with 250 hours)

[spitfirejock]

rudestuff - your right. the FAA CPL was unnecessary in this case, but I understand it was originally part of an 'integrated' program that required the EASA & FAA CPL with the intention of actually staying on, getting the instructor ratings (EASA & FAA) and then instructing for 1000hrs which ultimately proved unnecessary due to him landing the airline job with really low hours!

Goes to show that if you take the FAA CPL out of the equation, it would have been even less expensive.

[selfin]

This old adage still exists today - “train where you plan to fly”.

That sounds more like old marketing rubbish.

British pilots have been undergoing flying training outside Europe since at least WWII—under the Arnold Scheme at seven British Flying Training Schools in the United States (history (http://www.5bfts.org.uk/articles/history/fullhistory.aspx)), and across the Empire and Commonwealth under the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. The former British-owned CTC and OAT had no trouble carrying on this tradition for civilian training outside Europe.

When comparing Canadian and British (EASA) private pilot training syllabuses the differences are far and few between which isn't surprising because both emerged from Smith-Barry's Gosport system. In some areas the overseas training is superior as for instance the spin recovery training and five hours of flight by reference to the instruments under the Canadian private pilot syllabus. Any differences in air law, air traffic services, and airspace can be learned by the average person in a week.

plus when you come back to convert everything...

In the context of this thread there is nothing to convert because any ICAO Annex I-compliant PPL(A) meets the pre-requisites for a Part-FCL CPL(A).

... you have to dump a lot of what you learned over there in the theory side.

That is of course a gross exaggeration and it overshadows the benefits derived from a diversified training experience. That is, there is a lot of theory taught "over there" which will be retained. There is a lifetime of learning in this business and in the end it makes little difference where one begins.

[lilpilot]

Your FAA PPL will include night "rating" but you will need to buy a car if you plan on any lengthy stay in the US or Canada.
BASA will likely not apply to UK license holders as the UK leaves the EU and BASA is an EU-US agreement.
Add more time and money to your contingency, 10% is slim, 30% is more realistic.
Where do you plan to train overseas? Living costs add up quickly and should be a separate line in your budget.

[selfin]

BASA will likely not apply to UK license holders as the UK leaves the EU and BASA is an EU-US agreement.

That is an irrelevant fact. EU residence is not required to hold a Part-FCL licence and, in the context of this thread, conversion to a Part-FCL licence under the BASA is unnecessary.

If the OP obtains a Part-FCL licence it will be deemed valid for use in UK and there is no indication that article 150 of the UK ANO will be changed once UK leaves EU.

In the worst case UK will withdraw from the recent agreement (number 5950 (https://cfapp.icao.int/dagmar/main.cfm)) registered with ICAO on the automatic validation (https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Automatic%20validation%20of%20Pilot%20licenses-ICAO%20registration%20number%205950_EU-MS_V0.pdf) of Part-FCL licences: see also Commission Regulation (EU) 2018/1065 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32018R1065) of 27 Jul 2018 amending the Aircrew Regulation, and amendment 174 (http://dgca.gov.in/intradgca/intra/icao%20annexes/Amdt/an01_11ed_amend_174.pdf) to ICAO Annex 1. As far as I can see this will only affect holders of UK-granted Part-FCL licences operating non-UK-registered EASA aircraft outside UK and EU. The obvious solution is to apply under ANO Art 152 (form SRG 1104) for a United Kingdom pilot's licence, which post-Brexit will be valid on UK-registered aircraft presently considered EASA aircraft, then change the Part-FCL licence State of Issue.

[rudestuff]

This old adage still exists today - “train where you plan to fly”.
...the sky?

[spitfirejock]

Perhaps we might have established a logical (non-emotional or bias) consensus that its not about where you train, its about the quality of training and price you pay, often a balance between perception (will I get better if I pay more?), reality (what can I genuinely afford)? Trying to see through the marketing (often hype) is, in my opinion, a daunting task for a perspective student. These forums can perhaps help, when there is an overwhelming positive or negative about a school or a place, however, trying to cut through the huge variety of 'opinions' and reach a conclusion, I would argue is almost impossible. as I said a previous post, I think everyone should visit and see for themselves before committing and of course, never ever pay upfront large sums. Despite this all sounding logical and common sense to most, it is still surprising how many people don't take this advice.

As for EU, BREXIT & Part FCL, many have commented already back and forth to the point that a most readers must be confused. One post could argue very well and convincing in one direction, another post can go in the opposite direction and sound just as convincing. There are obviously very clever orators which put forward good arguments/points, but where do we end up, confused maybe?

For me, I take the view we wont know until we know (maybe a cop out or a neutral stance) but I think neutral is all we can be until we know. If I were a betting man, which I am not, I cannot fathom a situation which will lead to the UK being unable to train to a Part FCL standard and gain reciprocity in the worst case scenario, so my money will be on a positive not a negative outcome.

[custardpsc]

Banana Joe - any chance you could post some details on the process to sit ATPL exams in Poland? I am sure there are a few people interested in that one, me included

[flapsupboy]

Banana Joe - any chance you could post some details on the process to sit ATPL exams in Poland? I am sure there are a few people interested in that one, me included
Me too. And I wish to go with Bartolini

[selfin]

Article 21(6) of the new Basic Regulation coming into force 11 Sep 2018 provides a basis for the crediting of microlight hours. Refer to article 2(8) for aircraft not subject to the regulation.

Training and experience on aircraft not subject to this Regulation may be recognised for the purpose of obtaining the pilot licence referred to in paragraph 1 of this Article, in accordance with the implementing acts referred to in point (c)(iv) of Article 23(1).

Official Journal of the European Union, L 212, 22 August 2018: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=OJ:L:2018:212:TOC

[Banana Joe]

Banana Joe - any chance you could post some details on the process to sit ATPL exams in Poland? I am sure there are a few people interested in that one, me included

The process is quite straightforward, the only thing is that you are allowed to sit the first exam only after 5 months from the day you have officially enrolled as an ATPL student, but you can use all of this time to finish the CBT and study the subjects. It took me around 3 months to finish the Bristol CBT, with a two-week break in between.

You can do the 2-week brush-up class at any time - immediately before you finish the CBT or after - they have one scheduled, provided it is not fully booked. I think they take a maximum of 10 students and they run classes every two months.
Sitting the exams in Poland is also easy. The exam fee is €250 for all the exams, including re-takes. You don't need to book beforehand, you just go there when the session is open and tell the lady at the entrance what exams you are registering for. The exam sessions are open for two weeks every month, excluding August. Nobody does nothing in August in Poland.

I started studying the ATPL subjects on the Bristol CBT in September and finished it in November, took a month off and had my brush-up class in January. I passed the first exam in March and finished in May. 3 months to pass all the exams at first attempt thanks to the simple and straightforward process in Poland.

I recommend this path if you feel confident studying on your own.

I add it is imperative you finish the CBT, take the brush-up class and pass the internal exam to obtain the Course Completion Certificate. With this, you are allowed to register with the ULC (Polish CAA) to sit the exams.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Nobody does nothing in August in Poland.What do you mean? I've sent them two emails recently and have not heard back yet.

[Banana Joe]

What do you mean? I've sent them two emails recently and have not heard back yet.

Summer vacations.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Even Barto staff? :(

[custardpsc]

Banana Joe - many thanks , very helpful

Couple of questions

Is there any need to do anything in advance beyond just register via their website? do you need to be in the country at any point prior to pay in advance or submit original documents?

And if one wanted to do all the subjects in one go, you can register each day for a subject or two, during the two week session?

many thanks, I will investigate this further myself and post here to try and assist others

[Banana Joe]

Even Barto staff? :(

You're better off giving them a phone call.

Banana Joe - many thanks , very helpful

Couple of questions

Is there any need to do anything in advance beyond just register via their website? do you need to be in the country at any point prior to pay in advance or submit original documents?

And if one wanted to do all the subjects in one go, you can register each day for a subject or two, during the two week session?

many thanks, I will investigate this further myself and post here to try and assist others

It's been two years now and I don't really remember, but the school helps you in the process of registering for the exams. When you receive the login information you can do the exams.
Yes, you could attempt all the subjects in one sessions if you really felt confident about it, but I know nobody that has done this.

[Nurse2Pilot]

You're better off giving them a phone call.
They can respond to a phone call but not to an email??

[Banana Joe]

It's simple: the lady picking up the phone is the front desk lady. The email you wrote too is a representative's email. There are 2 and both of them are quite busy. One of them is also looking after aircraft sales as far as I know.

[Nurse2Pilot]

Makes sense! I'll give them a ring tomorrow but fired off another email today as well. I was initially confused as I only had 1 email on my Sent folder and realized that the other "email" I sent was through their Contact page! Thanks!