457’s are back!

[stormfury]

Have the 76 been identified, or is it an aspirational number?“The labour agreement granted last month allows the airline's regional arm, QantasLink, to bring 76 pilots and instructors into the country for up to four years, avoiding new two-year restrictions that block permanent residency.”https://www.afr.com/news/policy/industrial-relations/qantas-steers-around-457-visa-crackdown-with-deal-for-overseas-pilots-20180805-h13knt

[Chadzat]

A) good luck finding 76 that are willing to come and fly a turboprop.

B) If they do find 76 then I’d be interested to see what the quality is like of the applicants.

My Company struggled with both A and B when they went to the market

[Big_saint]

A) good luck finding 76 that are willing to come and fly a turboprop.


Strangely enough with the wages on offer for the position I don't think they will struggle to find applicants, as well for a lot of them it will be a foot in the door at living permanently in Australia.

How good they will be is another question entirely though.

[DirectAnywhere]

What a fkn disgrace.
It's amazing how market forces are a wonderful, brilliant, properly capitalist thing....until they're working against you. Australian pilots have been screwed by market forces and labour oversupply for decades, leading to the undersupply we see now. All of a sudden, business runs off to the government and finds a way around having to pay the wages the market is now demanding to correct the balance. It's a sick joke.

[logansi]

Just rediculous there are still plenty of guys in GA or working as instructors who would kill for a job at qlink, including many who have been knocked back. 457 Visas shouldn't be approved unless everyone of them has a job or was knocked back for a genuine reason. Where the union on this??

[wishiwasupthere]

Surely these 76 aren't FOs, they be DECs and C&Ters?

[Toruk Macto]

Unions should now lobby government to allow some of the big airlines ( Singapore , Chinese operators , Cathay and Emirates ) to be allowed to open bases in Australia and operate domestically . Pay top wages . Call it a 754 visa !

[Bend alot]

Just rediculous there are still plenty of guys in GA or working as instructors who would kill for a job at qlink, including many who have been knocked back. 457 Visas shouldn't be approved unless everyone of them has a job or was knocked back for a genuine reason. Where the union on this??

The problem is they would need training on the Q400, then the next day kill for that job at Virgin on 777.

I am sure REX are having a sigh of relief.

P.S. They are not 457 visas, and my understanding is that they don't require the companies to commit to training like the 457 did.

What is your position on the E3 visa in the USA?

[CurtainTwitcher]

Market forces is just a fairy tale told to you keep you compliant.

What this is really about is selling residency & citizenship in return for reduced rate contracts. The new Australian business model (actually most of the western world) is selling a pathway residency and ultimately leading to citizenship an AU passport and thence all the socialised benefits (healthcare etc) for elderly family and relatives through family reunion programs.

From the sponsoring business perspective you gain a valuable model employee who will do EXACTLY what they are told to do, for fear of rocking the board and no longer able to gain the carrot at the end.

However, there is an implicit tax extracted from the overseas visa holder for this juicy carrot, in the form of acceptance of lesser contracts.. That tax is captured by the sponsoring business, rather than the government via the lower wages. Further, it reduces upward pressure on contracts for exisiting citizens.

Yes, I'm sure there are reams and reams of useless paperwork, expert reports, studies, surveys all produced, most likely complete junk when held up to scrutiny to provide a fig leaf of plausibility for an outcome that was always desired by both the Airline and the Government. It's so much more convenient & personally profitable to buyback $1++ billion of shares than invest in your business through training people.

[logansi]

The problem is they would need training on the Q400, then the next day kill for that job at Virgin on 777.

I am sure REX are having a sigh of relief.

P.S. They are not 457 visas, and my understanding is that they don't require the companies to commit to training like the 457 did.

What is your position on the E3 visa in the USA?

How about they raise pay or if they are so worried about people leaving bond them for a little longer, or even better provide an actual flow to mainline after x number of years.

E3 Visa situation is different the US actually has a shortage. US regionals are offering sign on bonus's of $20,000+, pay rises have been in the double digits and most regionals now have flow to mainline, once Qlink offers that, then they can have 457 Visa's

Australian pilots once shut down the country over pay, now they accept pay rises just above inflation while pilots come in from overseas.

[stormfury]

What is your position on the E3 visa in the USA?E3’s don’t lead to the US equivalent of permanent residency - Green Card.

[Bend alot]

What this is really about is selling residency & citizenship in return for reduced rate contracts. The new Australian business model (actually most of the western world) is selling a pathway residency and ultimately leading to citizenship an AU passport and thence all the socialised benefits (healthcare etc) for elderly family and relatives through family reunion programs.



You seem to be ill informed about family reunion programs. If I can assume you mean parents and siblings you are definatly wrong.

Parents can come under certain conditions only and there are 2 ways. One is relitivly cheap but is capped and process time is a little better than the estimated 30 years.
The second is around $100,000 and processed from memory in around 18 months, medicals must be passed and I recall not eligible for Medicare (not 100% on that).

Failing that they can get visitor visas for longer than normal at around $20,000 for 10 years from memory - No Medicare.

As for the siblings - the only pathway is last remaining relative, this also has plenty of conditions.

If you are comming to get PR on the 457, your starting a new life on your own (wife and kids excluded).

[Bend alot]

How about they raise pay or if they are so worried about people leaving bond them for a little longer, or even better provide an actual flow to mainline after x number of years.

E3 Visa situation is different the US actually has a shortage. US regionals are offering sign on bonus's of $20,000+, pay rises have been in the double digits and most regionals now have flow to mainline, once Qlink offers that, then they can have 457 Visa's

Australian pilots once shut down the country over pay, now they accept pay rises just above inflation while pilots come in from overseas.

From what I am hearing the new employer is covering the bond of the pilot, bonding for longer could result in restraint of trade.

How would Rex provide an actual flow to mainline?

I expect the covered bond could be well above the $20,000 signing bonus.

I would be pretty sure that immigration allowed pilots into Australia prior to the shut down, yes that was an interesting time.

[CurtainTwitcher]

You seem to be ill informed about family reunion programs. If I can assume you mean parents and siblings you are definatly wrong.

Parents can come under certain conditions only and there are 2 ways. One is relitivly cheap but is capped and process time is a little better than the estimated 30 years.
The second is around $100,000 and processed from memory in around 18 months, medicals must be passed and I recall not eligible for Medicare (not 100% on that).

Failing that they can get visitor visas for longer than normal at around $20,000 for 10 years from memory - No Medicare.

As for the siblings - the only pathway is last remaining relative, this also has plenty of conditions.

If you are comming to get PR on the 457, your starting a new life on your own (wife and kids excluded).
If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

[maggotdriver]

Have the 76 been identified, or is it an aspirational number?“The labour agreement granted last month allows the airline's regional arm, QantasLink, to bring 76 pilots and instructors into the country for up to four years, avoiding new two-year restrictions that block permanent residency.”https://www.afr.com/news/policy/industrial-relations/qantas-steers-around-457-visa-crackdown-with-deal-for-overseas-pilots-20180805-h13knt
Did they say Dash 8s in the text or was that an assumption?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/970x304/banner_desktop_efea3f1d3f5737f3aafca94ef3307775b98aaa0a.jpg

Courtesy of QANTAS

[Bend alot]

If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

Bit of info here - that new visa from 2017 has a one of extension of 5 years.

Another thin to concider is for the first 4 years they will be on TR visa, after that allthings going well they can apply for PR. The process is not automatic and Partner Visas are currently taking around 2 years to process.
Currently after 2 years (they are trying to increase this) you can apply for Citizenship again with a processing time.

That might not matter to many, but if you have kids- imagine the university costs of being on TR & PR.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/brin/pare

[Kranz]

What a load of crap. As I said in my post on the Cobham Cadet Pilot Thread - How is it that QANT-ASS and others are permitted to force aspiring pilots overseas to create a career for themselves but are then allowed to import skills from overseas when they have made a conscious financial decision NOT to develop talent locally.

[Rated De]

Australian pilots once shut down the country over pay, now they accept pay rises just above inflation while pilots come in from overseas.

In coffee shops and crew bases industry wide, this was until the recent past SOP for pilots.
With an ever growing shortage there is a relevant question that is unanswered by the unions representing pilots.

Why is the union movement silent? The answer is they and airline management are two sides of the same coin.

With a certain former union president actively involved in 'pilot supply' why precisely is that sort of conga line from one side to the other permitted and indeed tolerated?
We are even informed a current Qantas 'negotiator' has quietly become a 'made man' (Training) during an enterprise negotiation...Conflict of interest? Nah just standard practice.

They aren't even discreet these days

[roundsounds]

A) good luck finding 76 that are willing to come and fly a turboprop.

B) If they do find 76 then I’d be interested to see what the quality is like of the applicants.

My Company struggled with both A and B when they went to the market
yes, isn’t the shortage of suitable applicants worldwide?

[pilotchute]

So Qlink knocked me back for not having recent instrument time.

The solution to that is bring pilots from overseas?
They had no shortage of applicants that week. Its all smoke and mirrors.

[Capt Fathom]

As has been said already, there are plenty of qualified pilots available here in Australia.

They just don’t want to pay the going rate. Let’s get in the mercenaries from overseas.

What at an absolute disgrace!

[Ghost_Rider737]

:}Cost of living in AUS is astronomical. Not many experienced expats would take the job unless they doing it purely for a visa.

I pay 15 AUS dollars for a 300g Mediterranean crusted rump steak and fries at a top restaurant.
i will consider OZ when the price is equivalent

[Capt Fathom]

I pay 15 AUS dollars for a 300g Mediterranean crusted rump steak and fries at a top restaurant

Wow. Must check my bottom draw for some AUS dollars! Where is that restaurant please?

[jetlikespeeds]

Our Chief Pilot (actually, scrub the pilot bit) should hang his head in shame as to how this has been allowed to happen, given the many decent people in GA that get knocked back whilst they are trying to bring in pilots from overseas.

[Bend alot]

As has been said already, there are plenty of qualified pilots available here in Australia.

They just don’t want to pay the going rate. Let’s get in the mercenaries from overseas.

What at an absolute disgrace!
Qualified?
Short a few ratings?
Want free training?

Will not commit and actually stay the term!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Expext to be treated as in comand, but never stood a firm foot on the way up that ladder.

Yep facts- you can not climb out of a sewer and claim to be clean.

[Jenna Talia]

Our Chief Pilot (actually, scrub the pilot bit) should hang his head in shame as to how this has been allowed to happen, given the many decent people in GA that get knocked back whilst they are trying to bring in pilots from overseas.

A Chief Pilot these days is nothing more than a lap dog to upper management.

[Rabbitwear]

So where is AIPA in all this , they need a seat on the recruiting board to find out why the local candidates are not making the grade, which I find absurd!

[Kranz]

Wonder if the 457 scab labour will be a 50/50 gender split?

[havick]

Wonder if the 457 scab labour will be a 50/50 gender split?

didn’t realise there was a picket line being crossed.

[stormfury]

Playing a bit kid devils advocate here but could this actually be a positive for those looking to join Q-Link as an FO. Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought they were only after senior DHC-8 guys (gender neutral) for C&T roles? Wouldn’t these folk then allow for an expanded intake and training of FO’s, the likes of which are currently doing GA flying around Oz? The PR aspect might be what is needed to get a suitable number of quality applicants, without that carrot I don’t think too may would be applying. At the end of the day aviation has always been an industry that has allowed Australian pilots to work internationally...

[t_cas]

What tends to be absurd, is the necessity for local Licence holders to need to jump through more regulatory hoops for check and training roles, than imported Licence holders.

Perhaps Part 61 was designed to allow everyone other than Local Licence holders to have portability of qualifications.

The common theme here is the lack of local development and training. Cadet programs are being used for nothing more than political leverage.

The importation of these “457’s” pilots should be compelled to serve 4-6 years in GA backfilling the void being left in the bush. Then, after having contributed to the grass roots communities, would the visa holder be more likely to be welcomed into the fruits of Australian living.

This is is a little like what the doctors are required to do if imported.

[Brakerider]

Playing a bit kid devils advocate here but could this actually be a positive for those looking to join Q-Link as an FO. Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought they were only after senior DHC-8 guys (gender neutral) for C&T roles? Wouldn’t these folk then allow for an expanded intake and training of FO’s, the likes of which are currently doing GA flying around Oz? The PR aspect might be what is needed to get a suitable number of quality applicants, without that carrot I don’t think too may would be applying. At the end of the day aviation has always been an industry that has allowed Australian pilots to work internationally...

In response, plenty of qualified drivers (with dash/ATR/metro time) holders sitting as FOs waiting for their turn in the LHS at Link. If the company decide to scrap the company time requirement for command in favour of DECs, there will be a lot of unhappy FOs.

[stormfury]

In response, plenty of qualified drivers (with dash/ATR/metro time) holders sitting as FOs waiting for their turn in the LHS at Link. If the company decide to scrap the company time requirement for command in favour of DECs, there will be a lot of unhappy FOs.Thanks for clarifying. Would this then free up other CA to take on more of a training role? Last I heard the training throughput was the biggest obstacle to crewing at the moment.

[Rated De]

Where precisely is the carefully considered, well researched and coordinated media campaign from the union leadership?

Bueller, Bueller, anyone?

[Kranz]

didn’t realise there was a picket line being crossed.


Havick, There cant be a picket line if there aren't qualified people to man it due to the airlines refusing to invest in training. Any picket line would only consist of wannabe pilots like myself wondering why I need to go to the US to get a job after initial training and minimum hours, while airlines here in Aus are importing labour to fill positions rather than investing in accelerating their own check and training programs and hiring locally.

Besides, the main attack from my initial comment was on the gender spread rather than the 'scab' comment.

[wishiwasupthere]

https://www.seek.com.au/job/36900670?type=standout

Here's another one, which has got to be Hevilift. If they dropped the requirement for a type rating, i'm sure they could find plenty of suitable Australian applicants who are experienced on a similar type.

[Bend alot]

https://www.seek.com.au/job/36900670?type=standout

Here's another one, which has got to be Hevilift. If they dropped the requirement for a type rating, i'm sure they could find plenty of suitable Australian applicants who are experienced on a similar type.
Senior - retired ATR captain.

Certainly not looking for a newby here, so plenty may not be true.

[Brakerider]

Thanks for clarifying. Would this then free up other CA to take on more of a training role? Last I heard the training throughput was the biggest obstacle to crewing at the moment.

Few captains are interested in training at the moment, as Trainers are getting (for lack of a better word) "fisted". My bet is a lot of these 457s will be Sim Instructors, with a further chunk attempting to join as DECs that will move into training roles. I had hoped the AFAP would never allow this to happen.

[havick]

Havick, There cant be a picket line if there aren't qualified people to man it due to the airlines refusing to invest in training. Any picket line would only consist of wannabe pilots like myself wondering why I need to go to the US to get a job after initial training and minimum hours, while airlines here in Aus are importing labour to fill positions rather than investing in accelerating their own check and training programs and hiring locally.

Besides, the main attack from my initial comment was on the gender spread rather than the 'scab' comment.

use the scab word wisely or it will lose its’ meaning

[Keith Myath]

I had hoped the AFAP would never allow this to happen.

The AFAP opposed these visas from the start. They participated in the process to point out all the flawed reasons for Qantas wanting them. Its all in the submission to the Home Affairs Minister. They have issued press releases, and continue to oppose the visas. It's the young pilots that are in GA and regional airlines that are most directly affected by this decision. Their progression to better paying jobs will be negatively impacted by this Qantas / Dutton decision

Qantas know the age demographic of their pilots, therefore they know the retirement profile. Qantas have orders for B787 aircraft, they control the delivery schedule, therefore they know the demand for training this will entail and the timing. Qantas control their recruitment, it was their decision to not hire a single pilot between 2009 and 2016. Qantaslink as recently as 2015 closed bases, force transferred pilots across the country and demoted Dash captains. When a company so comprehensively mismanages its workforce planning; they don't deserve to be rewarded for such incompetence. Unfortunately, the current government has done precisely that.

Short of removing Govenment, what do you suggest? A national strike?

[jetlikespeeds]

Qantaslink as recently as 2015 closed bases, force transferred pilots across the country and demoted Dash captains. When a company so comprehensively mismanages its workforce planning; they don't deserve to be rewarded for such incompetence.

100% spot on. A disgusting and unnecessary move made by someone in management trying to contribute to the transformation program. Consider the place transformed! Most of us have lost interest or moved on.

[Global Aviator]

Be it Asia, USA or the Middle East countries bring in expat pilots when there are not enough locals. If there are enough locals out they go, Google SQ, VN for a start.

Australia simply does not have that issue, how the chook the government allowed it first time round baffles me.

Agree with many above 457 Visa’s only when there are no suitable pilots, which as we know does not mean type rated.

If this is allowed through just another spineless Aussie government.

I am all for industry being able to propsper but not at the hands of the bloke who has done the hard yards.

[neville_nobody]

Short of removing Govenment, what do you suggest? A national strike?


Exactly. And a change in government to Labor would change nothing. At that level there is no differentiation between the two. Just look how weak Labor were during the lockout. Noone stood up Joyce. Just stood back and let him dictate terms.

Until Pilot Unions start having professional lobbyist in Canberra nothing will change and the entire aviation industry here will be hollowed out until there are no locals left to hire.

[CurtainTwitcher]

A very astute series of observations Kieth. I've made the argument before that the union movement has been emasculated progressively since the 70's so that it has been effectively outlawed in all but name only. Howard's IR law were the final nail with only a very limited allowable matters to be included. Clauses that prevent or constrain outsourcing, offshoring or corporate sleigh of hand transmission of business (example Network under the guise of LINK) cannot be included in agreements, nor will FWA agree to Protected Industrial Action over such issues. The principle of Managerial Prerogative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Managerial_prerogative) (Managers run the business as they see fit, labour has no right to be any part of the decision making) has been affirmed by the High Court. Managers run the business, labour does as it is told.

Negotiations are now a set piece play, and once an agreement is locked in place it is essentially illegal to withdraw labour. The right to progression in this industry DOES NOT EXIST.

Given the enormous asymmetry in power and clout this hands managers, it is no surprise that in like in many industries manager sought to extract this advantage to the hilt with very large short term cost savings and maximise profit. If you pick up any basic finance text (Corporate Finance, Ivo Welch Chapter 2 (http://book.ivo-welch.info/read/source.mba/chap02.pdf), free on his website (http://book.ivo-welch.info/read/)), the Time Value of Money is emphasised as the key driver of the modern world.

We begin with the concept of rate of return, the cornerstone of finance. You can always earn an interest rate (and interest rates are rates of return) by depositing your money today into the bank. This means that money today is more valuable than the same amount of money next year. This concept is called the time value of money (TVM)—$1 in present value is better than $1 in future value.

Translation: A buck today is so much more valuable than a buck and change next week.

This is exactly what we observe in Aviation, companies have failed to invest and return the cost saving and profit to reinvest in the their businesses beyond the absolute minimum - lack of training pilots is a prime example. That is what the major shareholders wanted. They wanted the cost savings converted to the present value through increased returns. For every $ saved in headcount and reduced training, a manager can take that $ buy back the stock, hence raise it's price and enable the shareholder to capture in increase capital gains, the value having be transferred from the employee.

Managers don't see the fact that they extinguished and exploited the entire industry, extracting every last morsel out the system as a problem. They simply see offshore pilots paid less than the Australian market rate and look to exploit that resource. Pilots are not human beings to the managers, they are just a series of skills to be acquired at the cheapest price. Pilots are simply widgets to be moved around, trained and used as sparingly as possible in the short term.

As long as they have compliant clients in the Federal Parliament who they can upgrade, wine & dine at the Chairman's lounge (which if a Union did, would be seen as corrupt misappropriation of member funds) and they can source labour elsewhere, they will have the rules changed. I have trouble distinguishing between the mafia & senior executive in this industry.

Failing to do so would incur enormous costs to rebuild to the local industry, because they represent a very large component of it, and the heaviest burden would fall on them. Unfortunately, the global industry has changed in the meantime, with managers globally all working from the same model assuming that they could all pull the same play. This is unsurprising, given this has been the finance driven Modus Operandi since the late early 80's LBO junk bond "Greed is Good" era. Unfortunately for the shareholders (mostly the worker with Superannuation accounts, oh the irony), the managers failed to correctly assess the demographics loss simultaneously with the expansion away from large aircraft to smaller point-to-point business model and Chinese market exploding. In my view, the industry is facing at least two decades to rebuild. They will have a great deal of trouble attracting and retaining the skills they need for the foreseeable future with the pay available elsewhere. Residency and citizenship is really the only carrot they have.

[stormfury]

:ok: +1 for Keith and CT.

Managers don't see the fact that they extinguished and exploited the entire industry, extracting every last morsel out the system as a problem.

Exactly! This is the principle problem with current aviation management. I’d highly recommend reading ‘The next crash’, it portrays the American experience with cost cutting and ‘money now’ mindset of airline management and the impact on the health, safety and longevity of the industry as a whole. Although they are at the point now in the US that they’re reaping what they’ve sown and no amount of pay rises or sign-on bonuses will provide a real, long-term, solution.

https://www.amazon.com/Next-Crash-Short-Term-Seeking-Airline/dp/0801452856

[V-Jet]

https://youtu.be/pKv6RcXa2UI

[Rated De]

https://youtu.be/pKv6RcXa2UI




It is things like this that reassure that others see the lunacy too

[Rated De]

Translation: A buck today is so much more valuable than a buck and change next week.

This is exactly what we observe in Aviation, companies have failed to invest and return the cost saving and profit to reinvest in the their businesses beyond the absolute minimum - lack of training pilots is a prime example. That is what the major shareholders wanted. They wanted the cost savings converted to the present value through increased returns. For every $ saved in headcount and reduced training, a manager can take that $ buy back the stock, hence raise it's price and enable the shareholder to capture in increase capital gains, the value having be transferred from the employee.

Managers don't see the fact that they extinguished and exploited the entire industry, extracting every last morsel out the system as a problem. They simply see offshore pilots paid less than the Australian market rate and look to exploit that resource. Pilots are not human beings to the managers, they are just a series of skills to be acquired at the cheapest price. Pilots are simply widgets to be moved around, trained and used as sparingly as possible in the short term.

This is precisely why the French declared when setting pay rates for pilots 'les compagnies aériennes ne ressemblent à aucune autre'

The reason why we spent the time on the Qantas fleet shows exactly how a slick CFO manufactures a transformation, complete with manufactured decline and huge volumes of share options and a conga line of analysts, even union leaders ask no questions and instead wait their place in line. Qantas need a new fleet, senior management failed in an elementary function of strategic planning: fleet replacement.


Qantas management have borrowed from the future to pay for their own largess. Candidly when US pension funds own big blocks of Qantas stock, who cares whether down the track the company needs new aircraft?
The IR/HR model is predicated on unending supply and even when confronted with evidence of a shortage, it is all rather simple, bring in a 'Stream Lead' to help maintain the status quo and undermine the employment market for one last waltz.

They have failed again, with respect to strategic planning for flight crew and instead decide it is more to their liking to undermine the very nation for which they fly a flag of convenience.

[JoeTripodi]

there would an uproar if the state government tried to do this with train drivers

[MeLuvUlongtime]

https://www.afr.com/news/policy/industrial-relations/qantas-steers-around-457-visa-crackdown-with-deal-for-overseas-pilots-20180805-h13knt

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/08/qantaslink-to-bring-in-overseas-pilots-and-instructors/ (http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/08/qantaslink-to-bring-in-overseas-pilots-and-instructors/)

[ExtraShot]

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/08/spirit-of-the-coolie-qantas-lands-cheap-foreign-pilots/


Nothing to do with a shortage. Everything to do with keeping wages low.

The Chairmans Lounge has been put to good use, or rather, it has served its purpose.

[Rated De]

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2018/08/spirit-of-the-coolie-qantas-lands-cheap-foreign-pilots/


Nothing to do with a shortage. Everything to do with keeping wages low.

The Chairmans Lounge has been put to good use, or rather, it has served its purpose.

Precisely, markets clear when the price rises and this is all about preserving the status quo. The demographics at play mean for the first time they are on the wrong side.

Despite government officials lamenting 'lack of wage growth' they do not want it. The other side won't change the rules either as donations (like Chairman's lounge-soft corruption) come thick and fast from the same business lobby groups,

However, as witnessed in the Northern Hemisphere, Michael O'Leary and Ryanair who remain the poster child of adversarial IR/HR have retreated. There is growing awareness of the structural, prolonged and generational shortage. Hence he has backed away publicly from confrontation. Pilots know leverage is theirs. Do Australian pilots?

[Beer Baron]

Where precisely is the carefully considered, well researched and coordinated media campaign from the union leadership?

Here, AIPA media release (https://www.aipa.org.au/media/1381/180806-mediarelease-qantas-pilots-reject-plan-to-hire-foreign-pilots.pdf)

And here is the subsequent article from The Australian;
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/996x1569/d4018cb5_1a8b_4136_8789_60a7e67dfd2f_cb59119387ddb33d6de18bb f0690726947cfb853.jpeg

[73qanda]

The driving force behind the push for four-year visas for pilots is two- fold,” Higgins said.

“Firstly, it takes about four years of experience in the right-hand seat before you can sit in the left-hand seat and gain a command and during that four-year period there is a training and mentoring relationship that is very important and we would like to see that relationship unbroken so that’s why we are requesting four-year visas.”



Trying to suggest a relationship between how long it takes an individual Australian pilot to upgrade and the length of time the foreign labour is needed is rediculous. Either Higgins has no idea what he is talking about or he is dishonest.

[stormfury]

The race to the bottom has begun!Why work in Brisbane?
Whether it’s pristine beaches, rainforests or city life that floats your boat, Brisbane has it all. We enjoy almost year-round sunshine and are a stone’s throw away from some of the world’s most pristine beaches.
In Brisbane, lifestyle is everything. We even enjoy 12 (yes, 12) public holidays per year.
Property prices and inner-city rentals are within reach, with bargains to be had. Overall, Brisbane is a fantastic place to live for both families and single professionals.https://www.seek.com.au/job/36900670?type=standout

[Hugh Mungus]

All current management in all Airlines have their Genisis in Beancounting......It is a truism the Beancounters “Know the Price of everything.........but the VALUE of Nothing “

[Global Aviator]

Let’s see... A bloke with 1768 hours in a C210 and PA31 (yes cadet Google what they are) would take let’s see, 3-6 weeks for a sim and rating on a Q400-B787.

A 457 bloke needs an ASIC, medical, blah......

No we do not have shortage.

Sane bloke can go get an E3 Visa (actual shortage in US due 1500 hr rule) join a regional, do 5 years then go to China earn more than a SKYGOD and retire within 10 years.

Straya.....

[Bend alot]

I wonder how many US citizen pilots with 1000 - 1400 hours are bitching about current rules that allow foriegners to take their jobs?

Should the regenals over there not just train up these pilots and employ them instead of issuing E3 visas?

* But an E3 does not lead to a green card!
True often it will not but tell that to the Yank with 1,000 hrs that is flipping burgers.
Also Australianpilots (most) are against any Pilots comming in to work even if they are the 2 year with a 2 year option (once only) Skilled Worker Visa with NO path to Citizenship.

I think the better optoin would have been to suport the 2 year work visa and require more training for up comming Australian pilots as a catch up to the current "shortage". This would have probably increased real wage growth for most, but not been the overnight massive increases in pay many seemed to be expecting. Pilots coming to work for 2 to a max of 4 years will be less in numbers applying, and wanting more in $'s as renumeration.

This would have given the airlines a band-aid not a cure.

[Icarus2001]

This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.

[Kranz]

This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.

If you believe that, then what is your explanation for why it is occurring? Clearly there are plenty of experienced and qualified pilots already in Australia in GA and elsewhere.

[pilotchute]

Q don't want to pay more than the rate already which many beleive is below what the market rate should be. Bringing in 457 visa pilots will help keep any py rises to a minimum.

[stormfury]

If you believe that, then what is your explanation for why it is occurring? Clearly there are plenty of experienced and qualified pilots already in Australia in GA and elsewhere.

Maybe I’m gullible and believe the spin but I get the impression they are chasing senior and C&T types, which I’m pretty sure there is a global shortage of. Qualified? Yes. Experienced (or at least what Q are stating) probably not. Not too many of these are currently in the Oz GA scene waiting for the call up.

[DirectAnywhere]

This thread is full of comments about overseas pilots working for less and Q not wanting to pay market rates hence the "457" visas. None of that is true. Imported labour will be paid the same as local labour. Fact.
They end up costing more as there are administrative costs associated with the visa process.
The thing is, the market rate SHOULD be higher. If there is a shortage of something (labour in this instance) the price of that something SHOULD go up in response. Australian pilots have looked at the price being paid for their services and decided it is not high enough. They are now being bypassed.

This 457 visa is all about adding something else to the package (the eventual right to gain Australian citizenship) as an incentive for foreign pilots. It costs the company nothing and addressing the supply side issues with citizenship rather than pay increases is keeping wages artificially depressed.

I said it earlier. It's a fkn disgrace.

[Joker89]

Basics of supply and demand, One can either increase supply by increasing T&C or increase supply by increasing the pool of applicants. What’s cheaper?

[stormfury]

Sane bloke can go get an E3 Visa (actual shortage in US due 1500 hr rule) join a regional, do 5 years then go to China earn more than a SKYGOD and retire within 10 years.

Although I agree with the subtext of your post it comes across as a little hypocritical. You’re against suitably qualified guys coming to Oz but you’re happy to head over to the US and China and take a job.

I agree there are true shortages in those countries (lets not go down the FAA 1500hr rabbit hole) although I’m sure their are local pilots who resent hearing the Aussie twang on the radio while they’re flying single pilot night freight.

All that said, I agree with overall assessment that this is a shortage manifested by neglect and short-term profit taking by airline management.

To to be honest, I don’t know where they are going to find 76 suitably qualified folk willing to work for what they are paying. Cost of living in Australia is very evotnsivev these days and unlike other high cost cities, Australian aircrew wages haven’t caught up yet.

[Flyboy1987]

Pretty poor by qlink and the government.
i remember seeing qlink advertising in Canada about 12 - 18 months ago. They were willing to interview applicants on their recruitment drive, then I think the deal included qlink paying a sum for relocation.

Disgusting as they refuse to even offer staff travel for Australian hopefuls making their way to interviews from Broome/Darwin where flights can be a weeks wage.

[Global Aviator]

Although I agree with the subtext of your post it comes across as a little hypocritical. You’re against suitably qualified guys coming to Oz but you’re happy to head over to the US and China and take a job.

I agree there are true shortages in those countries (lets not go down the FAA 1500hr rabbit hole) although I’m sure their are local pilots who resent hearing the Aussie twang on the radio while they’re flying single pilot night freight.

All that said, I agree with overall assessment that this is a shortage manifested by neglect and short-term profit taking by airline management.

To to be honest, I don’t know where they are going to find 76 suitably qualified folk willing to work for what they are paying. Cost of living in Australia is very evotnsivev these days and unlike other high cost cities, Australian aircrew wages haven’t caught up yet.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I’m saying that expat pilots are welcome and used anywhere if needed, Australia included.

When they are no longe needed they are fooked off.

The difference is Australia does not have a shortage and does not need expats.

Not enough trainers? Train more! Piss poor planning should not hold the bloke doing the hard yards back.

Whats a training course take? 4 weeks? What’s induction time for a qualified trainer? Let’s see license conversion......

[Icarus2001]

The thing is, the market rate SHOULD be higher. I love comments like this.

You know what your house is worth? Or your car? I will tell you. It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, that is the beginning and end of it. not what YOU think it is worth or your estate agent for that matter.

Now whilst I agree with your idea that we should be seeing upward movement in wages with the current "shortage" I think this plan is looking for EXPERIENCED C&T and sim pilots. I agree that we will probably see a large move in wages at the next EBA negotiations. Again though, workers only get what they are prepared to fight for. If you want a 5% pay rise then work for it. Work to rule, no call outs, sign on AT sign on etc. From what I see there is plenty of crew room whining but little appetite for actually arguing for a pay rise.

(the eventual right to gain Australian citizenship) That is not a given.

For those who are simply against ANY foreign pilots being employed here, how do you feel about all the Australian pilots working overseas?

[Kranz]

Icarus,
The issue is that the Australian airlines have dug this hole for themselves. It is not a market shortage - it was a conscious decision by QF and others to not develop staff. The industry has not significantly expanded in Australia, it is just that the airlines have failed in their succession planning due to a want for money saving and immediate investor returns. Now they want to import skilled labour (which is admittedly missing) as a substitute for failing to invest in development over the last 10 years (like every other business in the world is expected to do). They should be forced to lay in the bed they made for themselves - and that means forking out a significant wad of cash to train & upgrade existing employees and bring in more junior pilots already here in Australia & gagging for the opportunity.

The US on the other hand is a market shortage situation from rapid industry expansion, not a refusal by airlines to invest in training. Although that may also exist (I'm not qualified to comment on that), it is not the cause of the shortage. Therefore, international recruitment is warranted.

Besides, do you think pilots in Australia would pack up their lives and move to a different country or just stay where they are?

[morno]

Has anyone thought about what if there are insufficient numbers of Australian pilots who actually WANT to get into check and training?

And what about even if there are some who do, they may not be suitable to do it?

Your average line pilot when asked if they want to get into check and training, the general response is along the lines of “no effing way!”.

morno

[Global Aviator]

As has been said verbatim yes Aussie pilots can work overseas and many choose to, including myself.

Sure as sh@t though when not needed your contract is over, simple.

The USA....... There is a thread on working in the USA but essentially regionals will pay for your relocation, give you a sign on bonus, pay for your initial hotel, pay for your ATPL conversion, pay for your type rating, NOT bond you.

Straya won’t even put proper succession planning in place and lobby’s the gubment for this 457 cr@p.

I am an expat for a reason, I feel for you all in the great land down under.

[pilotchute]

So these senior C and T people coming over on the 457 visa are going to be FO's? Going to pass on the knowledge from the RHS? Pretty sure Qlink dont have DEC.

And for the life of me will people stop using the example of Aussies working overseas. They are there because of a lack of local pilots and are gotten rid off when locals become availble.

[knobbycobby]

It’s my understanding that with the 2 year Visa QantasLink got no interest. Hence they went begging in Canberra to get an exemption to 4 years. Not sure this was opposed or challenged by pilot associations at the time? Suspect they were unaware. If you can’t lobby with Chairman’s lounge membership, first class upgrades and influence News Corp and Fairfax press then it’s not easy.
I’m sure the unions have asked for proof of correct process. Given the Public mood opposing giving away Australian jobs it would have to be squeaky clean. Make a great 730 or bolt report segment were it not. Particularly as Qantas is the spirit of Australia and #Equalityis
Im not sure what Q link are paying or the details of the contract but the lack of interest sounds to be pay related and not residency related.
It will be interesting to see what difference 2 years makes. If the jobs are on the East coast or Sydney it’s not a great deal with tax at 49%, Sydney house prices averaging over a million and a woeful commute daily.
Hopefully the AFAP AIPA and pilots get the word out and counter attack this.
They may have to offer more money regardless of foreigners or Aussies as the pilot shortage is getting worse globally.

[Keith Myath]

Pilots object to Qantas hiring from overseas

Wednesday 8 August 2018 6:43PM (view full episode)

Qantas has struck a deal with the government to bring in dozens of pilots who don't currently call Australia home.

The agreement will allow 76 foreign pilots and instructors to come to Australia for up to four years, after which they could apply for permanent residency.

Qantas says its focus "has always been to recruit Australian-based pilots and that hasn't changed". It adds that "this agreement allows us to temporarily bring in a limited number of simulator instructors and experienced pilots from overseas to support one of the biggest training programs we have done in our history."

But Australian pilots aren't happy about the deal, as Captain David Booth from the Australian Federation of Air Pilots (AFAP) explains.

Full Podcast
ABC Radio (http://radio.abc.net.au/programitem/pgxVLKDnb6?play=true)

[morno]

So these senior C and T people coming over on the 457 visa are going to be FO's? Going to pass on the knowledge from the RHS? Pretty sure Qlink dont have DEC.

And for the life of me will people stop using the example of Aussies working overseas. They are there because of a lack of local pilots and are gotten rid off when locals become availble.

Pilotchute,
QLink obviously will have DEC's. Can't see why they can't/won't.

As for the second part of your post. Why do you think overseas pilots are coming in as check and trainers? Would it be because there's not enough local pilots who want to do it?

Refer to my reply above in regards to existing Captain's becoming C&T. :rolleyes:

morno

[Kranz]

Morno,
In summary you are saying that there are suitably qualified pilots (i.e. there is no pilot shortage), and that the airlines aren't paying them enough to justify the role (i.e. 457 visas are being used as a mechanism to bypass paying market rates)?

[Rated De]

What is more of concern here is the intent.

Clearly Qantas and the other protagonists will not telegraph intent.

Consider the impact of a prolonged shortage on airline strategy. No use playing checkers when the opponent is playing chess.
Using Qantas as the example:

Qantas has open enterprise agreements with (from our understanding) both their domestic and international pilots.
Qantas is acutely aware of the prolonged and extended shortage.
Qantas is desperate to hold unit cost where they like it ( so pilot remuneration stays where it is)
Union acquiescence? Not known.
Line pilots agitating for improved terms and conditions (remuneration) as they are also acutely aware of the shortage.
Inept federal parliament of either persuasion, will continue to mutter about wage growth, then rather quickly grants exemptions to employer groups (for the previously well established reasons) Employer groups love immigration as it holds labour wage claims to near zero in real terms.

IFF this 'program' provides substantial applicants, it is highly probable that the applicants will be moved to entities like Network with A320, or Qantaslink, even through to JQ. It is probable that the Qantas mainline pilot recruitment numbers will be the last to feel the effects of the shortage, thereby buying time. (From reading the press releases, it isn't clear how much airline's want!) In other words, this is not for a definite time frame. Consider carefully, that Qantas does not say until 2020 when our 'pilot college' trains XXX pilots. The agreement is likely open ended.


Having an alternative workforce in place, whether from fair means or foul, is extremely important. This is precisely what JQ provided for a decade. As former CEO Gregg testified to your Federal parliament, that JQ provided 'competitive leverage' against labour unit cost. (The decode was transfer flying until Qantas people give up wage claims!)

Returning to the first bullet point. If Qantas IR/HR delay 'negotiation's will the unions force to arbitration or indeed proceed to undertaking protected industrial action? (This is unknown!)
Delaying negotiations and playing for time is precisely what they (IR/HR) need with their fingers crossed they hold the line long enough for a 'strike breaking workforce' to be in place.

It seems axiomatic when viewed from afar that time is what airline managements in Australia need. With a Federal election due this could be of relevance too.

For the pilots reading this post, can your management be trusted to deal in good faith?
The market for pilots will clear. The problem for airline management is that will do everything to avoid market rates (unless of course that direction means a reduction in salary)

[morno]

Morno,
In summary you are saying that there are suitably qualified pilots (i.e. there is no pilot shortage), and that the airlines aren't paying them enough to justify the role (i.e. 457 visas are being used as a mechanism to bypass paying market rates)?

Not at all. What I’m saying is has anyone considered the possibility that the internal pool of potential check and training captains has been exhausted and now they don’t have a choice but to recruit externally?

Man there are some paranoid people on here.

[Bend alot]

Firstly- While I often get done for my gramma and spelling thats fine, but if you actually want that pilot job with Qlink - it aint a 457 visa, be a pro and call it what it is by sub class number. Might even help to reseach the process. It has been a long time since 457 applications were stopped, there are still some in the processing pipeline.

I got a message from a new immigrant (dont think a pilot) yesterday on a another different forum

"Been in Australia for a month now, just landed a dream job today and having the best winter of my life.

I’ll tske sunny and 20 degrees in Brisbane over -17 degrees in Vancouver any day."

I replied, then got this today.

I’d love to see *****, all of Australia really. I’m just so happy to be here. It’s just such a wonderful country with great people. I can’t say enough good about it, man.

The job I got here is near identical (save for the industry it is) that I had back home but with 2x the pay, bonuses and 5 weeks annual leave. I literally feel like I’ve won th lottery.

So, it might only be 2:17 pm, but I’m here, in sunny Queensland enjoying a nice cold XXXX. Can’t complain.

Thanks for the high marks on my application by the way. Feel for that guy and his Mrs back in Canada that applies a week before us and hasn’t heard anything. But, we really really did our homework and put forth an application that I think was the best possible application to put forward.

Thanks again for all the chats and all the advice and wisdom, Bendy. I’ll find my way up to ****** one day and we’ll get that case.

- Mitch

I did see a few countries mentioned for sourcing pilots Canada and South Africa and some others.

[Kranz]

Not at all. What I’m saying is has anyone considered the possibility that the internal pool of potential check and training captains has been exhausted and now they don’t have a choice but to recruit externally?

Man there are some paranoid people on here.

Morno, a shortage exists when there isn't enough of it. The fact is, there are plenty of people here in Australia capable of doing the job. If the airlines paid enough (everything and everyone has a price) then some captains would see the financial benefit outweigh the practical burden. Ergo, they take the role, an FO steps up to a Capt, an SO steps up to an FO and a low hour GA gets their foot in the door.

The situation we are in now is because the airlines don't want to pay - NOT because there aren't enough resources available. Simple.

[morno]

Isn’t this only to fix a problem within QLink? I didn’t know they had SO’s.

You can’t tell me that there hasn’t been calls for expressions of interest internally that have gone unanswered (it’s more money, which is the problem that you claim) before they’ve gone down this road? I imagine flight ops would have been involved at some point, why haven’t they intervened if the problem is so obviously about money? And then what do you do with the excess of pilots once the mass training backlog has cleared? Just think, if they were contract pilots, you could get rid of them and then replace them with local labour!

[73qanda]

From wiki;
The model is commonly applied to wages in the market for labor. The typical roles of supplier and consumer are reversed. The suppliers are individuals, who try to sell (supply) their labor for the highest price. The consumers are businesses, which try to buy (demand) the type of labor they need at the lowest price. As more people offer their labor in that market, the equilibrium wage decreases and the equilibrium level of employment increases as the supply curve shifts to the right. The opposite happens if fewer people offer their wages in the market as the supply curve shifts to the left.[12] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market#cite_note-Judd1997-12)

In a free market, individuals and firms taking part in these transactions have the liberty to enter, leave and participate in the market as they so choose. Prices and quantities are allowed to adjust according to economic conditions in order to reach equilibrium and properly allocate resources. However, in many countries around the world, governments seek to intervene in the free market in order to achieve certain social or political agendas


Now I’m no economist but even wiki lets me know that an increase in people offering their labor decreases the equilibrium wage. ( personally I think the equilibrium wage will increase regardless for the next five years).

[Rated De]

From wiki;

Now I’m no economist but even wiki lets me know that an increase in people offering their labor decreases the equilibrium wage. ( personally I think the equilibrium wage will increase regardless for the next five years).

Inducing additional supply into the Australian market, with the externality absorbed by others is what is at play.
There is a structural shortage and additional supply would be sourced with a shift in 'the curve' raising 'wages'

As have been observed in most western economies, REAL wages (after inflation) are at best neutral. This means over time purchasing power declines.

The interesting thing for students of the economy is that nearly 100 years ago Henry Ford summed up precisely the predicament in modern western economies:

“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.” -Henry Ford, Today and Tomorrow, published 1926.

The shortage, ironically, is demographic in nature, which has been coming since the end of the Second World War. Airline management gutted the industry, convinced oversupply would facilitate endless reductions in terms and conditions, thereby ignoring and ultimately creating and destroying itself.

In airline administration offices tomorrow, endless idiots search for the next way to extract more from their staff.With less on offer and pilot licences costly to acquire and indeed maintain, every cent extracted from staff creates additional feed backs which undermine their very business. On they rush, ensuring eventually their own demise.

[stormfury]

In airline administration offices tomorrow, endless idiots search for the next way to extract more from their staff.With less on offer and pilot licences costly to acquire and indeed maintain, every cent extracted from staff creates additional feed backs which undermine their very business. On they rush, ensuring eventually their own demise.Just have a look at CX to see how this plays out long term.