Help !

[Danny42C]

Help ! A few days ago someone Posted a Link (nearly sure on Mil. Avn.), which took me to to a riveting YouTube (about 15-17 mins duration) of two Yankee Air Force "good ole boys" cranking-up a B-17 ("Badass" something ?), no shoulder harnesses (did they have lap belts ?). No trouble, taxied, took off, poled around for a bit and seemed to cut all power off for a glide (?) approach down to a real "greaser", straight down the middle. No drama, It was their casual drawling nonchalance which "got" me !

Can I find it again ? I can not ! A callsign "MG23" (is there such a one ?) floats in my memory, but may be a red herring. Pprune Search, no joy, Google turns up similar stuff, but not nearly as good as this jewel.

Can anybody point me back to the link, please ?

Danny42C.

[Jobza Guddun]

Was it a 'period' film Danny?

If so maybe try this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh0yGxigqyM

[Daf Hucker]

Could it be this one?

[Danny42C]

Daf Hucker (#3),

Thassa one ! Lovely ! Thank you, thank you - you've made my day !

Jobza Guddun (#2),

Not the one (but I'm going to enjoy this enormously all the same !) Was pilot trained in the US on the Arnold Scheme by the US Army Air Corps 1941-42. Still have my silver Wings.
And, btw, congratulations on one of the wittiest, punniest Callsigns on Pprune !

Have a look at these, chaps, to see what it was like in Grandad's day.

Knew I could rely on Ppruners !

Danny (Class of) 42C, USAAC.

[bafanguy]

Danny,

Were you trained by the Civilian Pilot Training Program as described on page 189 (scroll up one page) in this book ?:

https://books.google.com/books?id=QMPdxT8f_iYC&pg=PA190&lpg=PA190&dq=%22grove+webster+%22&source=bl&ots=uHIxBA-k0H&sig=lzkgvd_3lP_LC-t5iZlegPsrfmU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiY3M72u9HcAhWEylMKHSooCjk4FBDoATAIegQIAhAB#v=onep age&q=%22grove%20webster%20%22&f=false

My dad enlisted in 1942 in Kansas and learned to fly in the CPTP. His stories were part of my motivation to get into the "biz".

[ExAscoteer]

I think you are confusing the CPTP with the BFTS (British Flying Training Schools) scheme which started in 1941 and which used 6 Civilian flyng schools, but with the syllabus overseen by the RAF.

The 6 schools were:
1 BFTS Terrell, Texas
2 BFTS Lancaster, California
3 BFTS Miami. Oklahoma
4 BFTS Mesa, Arizona
5 BFTS Clewiston, Florida
6 BFTS Ponca City, Oklahoma

My late Father trained at the Spartan School Of Aeronautics in Miami, OK, Dec 1943 to Jun 1944.

The Arnold scheme was hosted by the USAAF. There was a similar scheme, the Towers scheme, hosted by the USN. My late Uncle trained under the Towers scheme at Detroit and Pensecola.

[bafanguy]

I think you are confusing the CPTP with the BFTS (British Flying Training Schools) scheme which started in 1941 and which used 6 Civilian flyng schools, but with the syllabus overseen by the RAF.

ExA,

I may very well be confusing the two. I'm only familiar with the CPTP and unaware of the British version until now.

I do know that CPTP trained foreign nationals having flown with a Cuban gentleman who learned to fly via CPTP in Indiana during the war. Fascinating history all things considered. Thanks for the info.

[MPN11]

The cockpit ergonomics on the B-17 look a bit of a nightmare!

[Danny42C]

bafanguy (#5),

exAscoteer (#6) has answered your question: I would only add that I knew nothing about any CPTS when I was there (Sept '41 - Mar '42). The Arnold Scheme was the brainchild of General "Hap" Arnold, the then Commanding General of the USAAC South-East Training Center. It operated from July 1941 in flagrant defiance of the Neutrality Act (but what was Hitler going to do about it - complain to the League of Nations ?)

These details from:

"The Official Website of "The Arnold Scheme (1941-1943) Register"™

may be of interest.


"Unfortunately nearly 50% of British cadets did not successfully complete pilot training under the scheme, being eliminated ("washed out"), usually without the right of appeal. Between 1941 and 1943, some 7,885 cadets entered the scheme and of the 4493 who survived training, most were returned to the UK as Sergeant Pilots, with many being posted to Bomber Command". However, 577 of the graduates were retained for a period of approximately one year as Instructors."

(nearly all for the BFTS; but we had one P/O MacMillan posted to us at US Advanced School, Craig Field, Selma in early '42; he must have been on 42A Course, graduating in the New Year, and cannot have had more than 8 weeks Instructor's School).



And:


"Stats & Facts Group "A"
======================

Total RAF Intake 7885, with losses as follows:

RAF cadets Eliminated at:
Acclimatization Centres..........9
Primary Schools............... 2687
Basic Schools .....................526
Advanced Schools...............170
Cadets Killed in Training....... 81
__________________________________

TOTAL.........................3743 (and overall "washouts" [#] 3653 or 46.3%)....Group 'A' "

In short, we sent out 7885 LACs from ITWs and got 4493 Pilots (nearly all Sergeants) back. The "washouts" were returned To Canada, where most retrained as Navs or W/Op AGs, so all was not lost. But I have little doubt that, in BFTS or EFTS Schools, many of the "washouts" would have been successful as Pilots.

Co-incidentally the US set up the six British Flying Training Schools under RAF Officer * command, but staffed (originally) with civilian US flying Instructors and provided with American training aircraft: these BFTS continued until the end. What input (if any) General Arnold had in this I do not know. What I do know is that they had (for comparison of Training Systems ?) to accept 20 (?) % of US "Aviation Cadets" with the British LACS. I believe the overall "washout" rate in the BFTS was much lower than in the Arnold Schools, but I do not know what it was and cannot find out.

Note * - how do you square being a "neutral" with allowing the Armed Forces of a combatant to operate in your land ?

Strange things happen in War !

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#8),

Yes, it does look like a bit of a dog's dinner, doesn't it ? But all is made plain by Jobza Guddun's (#2) find of the training video of "How to fly a B-17 in Three Easy Lessons" (my exaggeration). Odd, that you have to take it off in a three-point attitude, thought only VVs did that - but then, they did everything in three-point position (except when going straight down).

Still confused ? - Join the Club !

But this only serves to enhance the charm of these two good old "Dukes of Hazard" characters as they bumble their way through getting airborne effortlessly in the B-17, floating around and putting it down perfectly with consummate ease. They make it look so simple ..... and you nearly want to look for the cuspidor on the floor !

Of course this must be very old film, and the pilots ex 8th Air Force veterans who could fly the B-17 in their sleep.

[bafanguy]

Danny42C & ExAscoteer,

Thanks for the history lesson. There's much more to that Big Picture than I knew.

[Dan Winterland]

The cockpit ergonomics on the B-17 look a bit of a nightmare!

And famously so. The early B17s used the same design of switch for the gear and flaps. Guess what happened frequently? They redesigned the gear switch to look like a wheel, now seen on nearly all types.