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CurtainTwitcher
3rd Aug 2018, 10:25
Cobham press releaseCobham Cadet Pilot ProgamCobham Aviation Services has partnered with Flight Training Adelaide to provide a world-class cadetship program for aspiring pilots.

The Cobham Cadet Pilot Program (CCPP) will commence in early 2019 with the first intake of cadets attending the 53-week residential training program at Flight Training Adelaide. The program is focused on bringing the best and brightest into our Special Mission operating business.

One of the critical operations conducted by Cobham involves airborne surveillance spanning the country’s exclusive economic zone utilising ten highly modified Dash 8 aircraft. The cadets will be trained specifically with the skills and flight experience to become a Dash 8 First Officer at the conclusion of the program.

Applications for the 2019 intake are open for a limited period from 3 August 2018. For more information and to apply, please visit: www.flyfta.com/pilot-training/cobham (http://www.flyfta.com/pilot-training/cobham)

Cobham Cadet Pilot Progam Cobham Aviation Services (http://www.cobhamaviationservices.com/careers/cobham-cadet-pilot-program/)



Todays Adelaide Advertiser
Cobham has launched a new cadet program for aspiring pilots
Giuseppe Tauriello, The Advertiser
August 3, 2018 12:30amASPIRING pilots are being sought by aviation group Cobham Aviation Services Australia for a new specialist cadet program launched in Adelaide.

The Cobham Cadet Pilot Program is open to candidates with little or no flight experience, offering an opportunity to join the company’s special mission flight operations in Broome, Cairns and Darwin.

As part of the special mission operations, Cobham conducts aerial surveillance for the Federal Government with a fleet of ten highly-modified Dash 8 aircraft.

Cobham special mission general manager Ken Millar said the program would prepare cadets with all the skills needed to operate in the role of first officer on the specialist aircraft.

“This is not regular passenger transport flying - it’s unique, hands-on, low-level flying,” he said.

“Ultimately, graduates will have the rare opportunity to combine their love of flying with national security and environmental protection.”

Cobham is partnering with Flight Training Adelaide to deliver the 53-week cadet program, which will commence early next year.

Mr Millar said Cobham launched the program in response to the global pilot shortage, and to create entry-level opportunities to join its crews.

“Flight Training Adelaide is a highly reputable and highly professional pilot training

organisation and we are thrilled to partner with them on this exciting initiative,” he said.

Applications are open until August 12, with the eight successful cadets to be based at Flight Training Adelaide’s Parafield Airport premises for the duration of the course.

The cadetship is funded primarily by Federal Government vocational and education training (VET) student loans, with Cobham subsidising the balance of the training fees.
https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/business/sa-business-journal/cobham-has-launched-a-new-cadet-program-for-aspiring-pilots/news-story/3eb37bf11cc79cc55ee8ea877cfa0d3a?nk=0ddea57bc5c15741a58ea448 6603b9e2-1533287816

CaptainInsaneO
4th Aug 2018, 09:33
Gee it’s pretty expensive.

How many young aspiring pilots have that sort of money?

Street garbage
4th Aug 2018, 10:35
Here's an idea Mr/Miss/Ms/Perz(?) Management, how about instead of neglecting pilot training to the extent that more than just a few airlines are parking a/c up against the fence, pay for people to learn, instead of naive youngsters coughing up $150k plus with zero guarantees.
What costs more, lease payments on a/c up against the fence, or investing in your future employees.
I know what the bean counters will say, pilots are a cost.
Reap what you sow.

Bula
4th Aug 2018, 10:40
Sorry Cobham. You’ve got this one very wrong.

TimmyTee
4th Aug 2018, 10:45
Edited to remove fluff:

Over the 1 year course, on top of maxing out the FEEHELP account at over 100k, an extra $44,000 required to be paid.
No guaranteed position at Cobham, even if successfully completing the course.
$270 to apply.
Finish the course and turn down a job offer (regardless of base), Cobham issue a $20,098 bill.

Derfred
4th Aug 2018, 11:07
When was the last airline subsidised cadet course?

pilotchute
4th Aug 2018, 11:34
Cathay
Emirates
Etihad
Singapore Airlines
Kenya Airways
All the Chinese airlines

logansi
4th Aug 2018, 12:05
Isn't it say that $20,188.00 will be paid by Cobham and you'll only pay if you pull out if offered a job?

Most people using student loans are maxing out there student loan at $100,000

Also if under 22 Youth Allowance + Rent allowance is $16,000 per year towards the renting/meals

Expensive but sadly kinda on par with students doing uni courses or student loans diploma.

busdriver007
4th Aug 2018, 13:16
So let me get this straight! I pay over $100K for a job that will guarantee nothing in regard to an ongoing career. Any parent/carer/sponsor must ask the question "what does this guarantee?" the answer is nothing. My daughter has just finished Medicine and she has a Hex of $121K and she has more scope than what this offers. Remember Qantas sub-contract Cobham and the Jetstar Cadetship cost over $145K with no career expirations at all. Cobham and Jetstar are making money out of these schemes. Buyer beware! Most pilots turn up at an Airline with a qualification that cost the Airline nothing! This has to change. The Airline industry must stop spending money on themselves and start investing in the industry(both Pilots and Engineers) but I cannot see that happening anytime soon.

Bula
4th Aug 2018, 13:57
The funniest thing is they probably actually think this will solve their pilot shortage....

Australopithecus
4th Aug 2018, 13:57
If you were a young person and willing to bet on career longevity in spite of technological advances threatening the traditional two-pilot flight deck, why in hell would you consider this lame-brained* scheme? Better to attend Griffith or similar, get an E3 visa and fly in the US where the experience and remuneration are worth the entry price.

*=cognitively challenged, with apologies to the actual lame, and the genuinely feeble-minded.

TimmyTee
4th Aug 2018, 14:08
A question from someone not up to date on military gear, does the governments recent $14billion purchase of long range surveillance drones look to replace the type of work Cobham special missions perform?

Keg
4th Aug 2018, 14:38
When was the last airline subsidised cadet course?

Qantas. 1990- 1992. $10K up front by each cadet so that they had skin in the game. $15K for those that started in ‘91. CPL at the time was about $40K. Numbers quoted for the residential course at AAC at the time was circa $90K.

bafanguy
4th Aug 2018, 21:18
As long as these program generate takers, the companies have no motivation to change the format.

Maybe if they announce a program and get ZERO responses, it'll get their attention. But that won't happen.

Rated De
4th Aug 2018, 21:57
Here's an idea Mr/Miss/Ms/Perz(?) Management, how about instead of neglecting pilot training to the extent that more than just a few airlines are parking a/c up against the fence, pay for people to learn, instead of naive youngsters coughing up $150k plus with zero guarantees.
What costs more, lease payments on a/c up against the fence, or investing in your future employees.
I know what the bean counters will say, pilots are a cost.
Reap what you sow.

When the entire recruitment and employee relations model is predicated on unlimited supply, there never has been either the impetus nor need to change anything.

This is precisely why these 'schemes' will continue to pop up until airline HR/IR see their recruitment quotas fall below threshold.
Airlines are facing a mean reversion that they ignored for decades: Demographic changes are slow to be felt but will overwhelm their model to the point that they will be faced with either changing the way they treat and remunerate pilots, or generate ZERO operating revenue.

Maybe if they announce a program and get ZERO responses, it'll get their attention. But that won't happen.

As many airlines are finding out in Europe and China, there is a chasm of difference between 'applicants' and 'qualified applicants'. So yes the program will be spun as 'hugely successful'. "500 applicants for this amazing offer'.

What will actually be the case is high school student "T" with time in the Air League, good marks at school and Captain of the Form 3 soccer team, hopes one day to be an airline pilot, as it looks cool*...." Such are the applications received from at least one Major operator

* Changed to protect identity

pilotchute
4th Aug 2018, 23:14
THe real issue seems to be that the Cobham dash 8 operation isn't a very enjoyable place to work. Whilst I have never been an employee I know many who have.
People don't quit jobs they quit management.
​​​​​​This will simply get the FO to stay an extra 24 months before they all run away too.

hoss
5th Aug 2018, 01:13
Now watch the exodus of mission coordinators and observers, they will be thrilled with the zero time copilots.

Once upon a time you needed close to 5000 hours to get that seat on a Dash!

AerocatS2A
5th Aug 2018, 02:38
They've put a "zero time" pilot through before (a Qantas cadet), he was very good, and there were no rumblings at all from the observer crews about it AFAIK. The crew are all on intercom, they can hear what's going on up the front, and they can tell when there's a "struggler" up there. They are also smart enough to know that hours has very little to do with it.

Kranz
5th Aug 2018, 02:51
No point slamming Cobham over this program - it is no different to every other Australian "cadet pilot program" - Virgin, Rex, Jetstar - they all require the student to end up paying for the course with no guarantee of a job at the end. They are all exactly the same as the university courses with a brand name attached. Its a pi$$ poor effort by airlines in Australia to manage business succession planning.

As a "mature age" wannabe pilot - I have a life set-up here in Aus but if I ever wanted to make it to an airline, I would have to consider moving to a different country to facilitate it (e.g. E3 to US). Its pretty disappointing that the bean counters that operate these airlines work to the MO of forcing potential pilots offshore at their own cost then poaching them back after a few thousand hours on type.

I cant see it changing any time soon either.

havick
5th Aug 2018, 03:11
Now watch the exodus of mission coordinators and observers, they will be thrilled with the zero time copilots.

Once upon a time you needed close to 5000 hours to get that seat on a Dash!

exodus to where? It’s not like there’s an abundance of mission coordinator, dispatcher and mission observer jobs in Australia.

pilotchute
5th Aug 2018, 07:00
Aerocat,
Maybe this one person was ok but will the dash 8 operation change the training to cater to significantly less experienced new joiners? Qlink and Jstar had some very close shaves early on in their cadet program.

I dont think low level night ops over water will be so forgiving.

AerocatS2A
5th Aug 2018, 09:50
They had a different training program for him and I'm sure they will use that experience to help design a permanent program for low hour pilots.

gav_20022002
5th Aug 2018, 11:33
I'll agree Aerocat as I've flown with them and also with the previous QF cadet when I was a MC. But that being said I also saw a lot of FO's type and non type rated not make it through the training. It will definitely be an interesting time but if you flood the aircraft with cadets in the right seat I cant seeing it end well. Drip feed them 1-2 per base every 12 months it might have a better chance of surviving. I've been out of their game for a number of years now but it was also discussed as far back around 07/08. I look forward to seeing how this one plays out

Lookleft
6th Aug 2018, 01:18
Won't the cadets go to the 717? That seems to be where the big problem is with flight cancellations.

AerocatS2A
6th Aug 2018, 01:44
Won't the cadets go to the 717? That seems to be where the big problem is with flight cancellations.
The cadet program is for the Dash 8s.

Ejector
6th Aug 2018, 04:00
With all the Airline, most regional and now airwork operators filing the right seat with 200hr chaps, what hope does someone from a normal flying school have ?

Bend alot
6th Aug 2018, 08:25
That program does not make for many places for a 53 week duration.

It is 1048 hours over the 53 weeks at an average of $117 per hour inc 200 flying.

They certainly are not making money out of it.

pilotchute
6th Aug 2018, 10:41
Not making any money?
ATPL ground school at a very reputable school, $4400. BAK, PPL, CPL and IREX is less than $4000 at a good school in Melbourne. These guys are making a good dollar at those prices. I will use those prices as a guide as to what FTA charge for ground theory.

So 100k minus 8.4k equals 91.6k

$92k for a CPL and IR rating? Bargain.

And before anyone calls me out on it, I didn't include the MCC cost because Cobham already provide this to new hires as part of the bond agreement. The fact that they are charging cadets for it is a sign of their good will.

Bend alot
6th Aug 2018, 10:47
Not making any money?
ATPL ground school at a very reputable school, $4400. BAK, PPL, CPL and IREX is less than $4000 at a good school in Melbourne. These guys are king a good dollar at those prices.

So 100k minus 8.4k equals 91.6k

$92k for a CPL and IR rating? Bargain.
There is your problem.

$117 is subsidized.

Less than that is prostitution.

Ever run a company?

ITCZ
8th Aug 2018, 16:57
The cadet program is for the Dash 8s.

Indeed.
Don't let the existence of a Cobham "group" of companies lead you to the conclusion that it is one big happy company, sharing and caring for pilots.
Cobham hire into 'silos' called 'business units' and do not facilitate pilot transfers across those business units.
There were a smattering up to and including 2001. Another smattering when "Uday" ascended to the GM throne and rewarded a few loyal SA drivers.
Nothing since.
Perhaps that may change.
On the day that it does, I shall look to the west to see the sun rise. ;-)

AerocatS2A
8th Aug 2018, 22:49
Who is “Uday”?

Blitzkrieger
8th Aug 2018, 22:53
Laced with typical HR and management "uptalk", but it will be far from a good thing for anyone who is lured into signing up.

I'll just leave these here:
Toxic
Deceptive
Skin deep safety culture
Exploitation

Do with those what you will.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
9th Aug 2018, 02:23
Most pilots turn up at an Airline with a qualification that cost the Airline nothing! This has to change.
But isn't that how it works in almost all other professions?
My daughter has just finished Medicine and she has a Hex of $121K
And who paid for that? It wasn't her future employer. She will turn up on their doorstep with her qualification looking for a job. Just like the airlines now expect.

pilotchute
9th Aug 2018, 03:46
I dont think medical graduates go door knocking for jobs or start on $42k a year

Bend a lot. Can you explain your response you lost me.

Kranz
9th Aug 2018, 05:21
I dont think medical graduates go door knocking for jobs or start on $42k a year



^^^ this :D

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
9th Aug 2018, 10:06
I dont think medical graduates go door knocking for jobs or start on $42k a year
No, but I bet they submit resumes and don't get every job they apply for. They are also entering a workforce controlled by their "union" (AMA) who actually look after their members. It's also irrelevant. They didn't expect their employer to provide their education. They got it first, then got the job. That's the deal, and they knew it going in. And like pilots, not everyone makes it, but you've still got the debt.
In 2014 a study by the major Universities reported "the average starting salary among all graduates was $48,888", so pilot "graduates", while below the average, certainly aren't alone. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it's usually at the bottom.

Kranz
9th Aug 2018, 11:23
I see your point Traffic, but to be fair, universities do not accept more students than there are placements for doctors. If you cut the mustard in Med school, and pass off as a normal human with respect to work ethic, presentation, etc. you are guaranteed a job afterwards. The starting salary you quote is also the first year 'internship' salary which climbs to $200k within a few short years. You are not stuck on 45k as a university tutor for three years before progressing to a hospital seniority list starting at 80k for the next 5 years before finally getting the golden nugget.

Each to their own though. Im sure Cobham will fill their quota and then some with people willing to fork out a buck fifty with no guarantees.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
9th Aug 2018, 11:54
They don't accept more students than there are places for doctors because the AMA and associated professional guilds etc control the numbers. Uni's do however, churn out engineers, accountants, teachers etc in far greater numbers than there are jobs, thus forcing some to settle for something else, or go overseas seeking positions. The starting salary I quoted from the report was the average of all graduates. Med grads were $64.5k behind engineers on $68k. If you want to make money rather than follow your passion, choose them.

pilotchute
9th Aug 2018, 11:58
Two points to remember. You actually have to do really well at high school to get into a medicine degree. You also have to study incredibly hard to graduate.
A CPL course will take almost anyone and will keep you repeating things until you pass or run out of money. Medical school won't let you do that.

When you get a CPL your qualified to fly pretty much nothing bigger than a 182 and that's it.

Medical graduates have a wide selection of career paths that don't necessarily coincide with treating human patients.

A medical degree is a bit more of a meal ticket than a CPL.

Slezy9
9th Aug 2018, 19:15
The starting salary you quote is also the first year 'internship' salary which climbs to $200k within a few short years.

and you're not tied to one employer! You can move jobs and your experience is recognised and earn what you were earning (if not more). Unlike an airline pilot who is pretty much stuck unless you want to be a FO again.

bazza stub
9th Aug 2018, 19:45
Doctors usually only destroy one life at a time if they have bad day, and then they go home. A person scheduling surgery or booking patients doesn’t question a doctors decisions on a daily basis.

Full reval of their qualifications every year?? Doctors......?

Why do we compare ourselves to them?

Kranz
9th Aug 2018, 23:38
https://amp.adelaidenow.com.au/business/sa-business-journal/cobham-has-launched-a-new-cadet-program-for-aspiring-pilots/news-story/3eb37bf11cc79cc55ee8ea877cfa0d3a (https://amp.adelaidenow.com.au/business/sa-business-journal/cobham-has-launched-a-new-cadet-program-for-aspiring-pilots/news-story/3eb37bf11cc79cc55ee8ea877cfa0d3a)

"The cadetship is funded primarily by Federal Government vocational and education training (VET) student loans"... Um funded...No. Great journalism there.
The cadetship is funded by the student... who has access to a loan. How hard is it to report accurately?

pilotchute
10th Aug 2018, 00:48
Bazza,
Other pilots are the ones comparing themselves to doctors. I beleive that it's a bit fanciful to make that comparison. Medical doctors have to do a long stint at uni (5 years I think) and then two years of residency and after all of that try to get access to a college. GP's, Surgeons, Anaesthetists etc. If they get into a college then a few more years of training and maybe then they can relax. If your lucky you will be finished by the age of 30.

If you dont make it through residency or college training you can be a supervised hospital doctor or you can go into research, administration etc.

If you dont make it into the cockpit with your 100k CPL yoy have far fewer options.

bazza stub
10th Aug 2018, 06:53
Pilotchute, I was basically making that point. Why are we comparing ourselves to a profession that has no resemblance to ours? Forget what other people get, we’re pilots and we should be more focused on making our jobs workable.

FMTAfterburn
25th Sep 2018, 02:34
Woah, whats going on, the Border force contract has minimum requirements of experience and IRT renewals, no way a cadet would qualify to fly on these sorties unless Cobham extort the Government to make whole sale changes to their contractual obligations, or they commit to having a training pilot on every cadet flight, in which case there is no advantage. But hey it wouldn't be the first time they got away with conning the government.

Roller Merlin
25th Sep 2018, 02:48
And don't forget the $270 fee just to be hopeful of the pineapple!

AerocatS2A
25th Sep 2018, 03:10
Woah, whats going on, the Border force contract has minimum requirements of experience and IRT renewals, no way a cadet would qualify to fly on these sorties unless Cobham extort the Government to make whole sale changes to their contractual obligations, or they commit to having a training pilot on every cadet flight, in which case there is no advantage. But hey it wouldn't be the first time they got away with conning the government.
The contractual requirements have been flexible in the past (e.g., residency, citizenship, IRT renewals), I don't see why they wouldn't accomodate something like this.

Icarus2001
25th Sep 2018, 05:02
doesn’t question a doctors decisions on a daily basis.
So how many decisions does an RPT jet pilot make each day? Level selection, final fuel load, which sector to fly and which meal to eat. Every other "decision" has been made for them by either the aircraft manufacturer, the regulator or their company. Think about it. Manuals are so prescriptive now that there is very little decision making in normal operations. Granted, with non normal operations the range of decisions widens but still mostly prescribed eg "land as soon as practicable" or " avoid icing conditions". Doctors on the other hand start with someone complaining of a "sore belly" then start from there.

morno
25th Sep 2018, 06:16
You’re obviously an FO Icarus?

Icarus2001
25th Sep 2018, 08:56
No, over a decade left seat. Perhaps you could list three “decisions” that are not prescribed?

morno
25th Sep 2018, 10:02
Do you take much notice about what you’re doing?

How about just managing the flight, everything involves a decision in one way or another. If you’re just showing up and making 3 decisions I’d be a bit worried.

Capn Bloggs
25th Sep 2018, 10:18
I think Iccy must have taken something...

FLGOFF
25th Sep 2018, 10:46
Doctors on the other hand start with someone complaining of a "sore belly" then start from there.

I would argue that a doctor has a lot of decisions made for them. A doctor would ask the patient more questions to get an idea of the symptoms, run some checks and narrow down the possibilities until they hopefully arrive at a diagnosis. They would utilise their knowledge of the human body and they would have ample resources and texts to refer to for assistance. This is very similar to how one might diagnose a technical issue in the aircraft by analysing the warnings, indications etc and diagnosing the issue and following the prescribed checklist. You could argue that a doctor doesn't have a checklist in front of them, but perhaps if they had to make big decisions in a short time frame whilst managing numerous other tasks at the same time, a handbook akin to a QRH might be beneficial.

Keg
25th Sep 2018, 11:26
No, over a decade left seat. Perhaps you could list three “decisions” that are not prescribed?


1. Can we board.
2. Can we close the last door.
3. Chicken or beef for lunch.

:ok: :} :E

SIDS N STARS
26th Sep 2018, 11:29
4. One line NOTAMS or full text?
5. Intersection departure or full length?
6. Would you like poached eggs and bacon with hollandaise sauce on sourdough , or the cereal?

:{

Capn Bloggs
26th Sep 2018, 11:47
Would you like poached eggs and bacon with hollandaise sauce on sourdough
We call it Eggs Benedict! :}

Capt Fathom
26th Sep 2018, 12:02
We call it Eggs Benedict!
As a passenger, I’ve never been served that!

Icarus2001
26th Sep 2018, 13:52
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/300x200/300px_paris_tuileries_garden_facepalm_statue_61eae7fb555ff9c 1d81d9a48e8342f6568459542.jpg

Capn Bloggs
26th Sep 2018, 14:36
Yes Iccy, I am appalled! You should hang your head in shame! :{

exfocx
27th Sep 2018, 03:59
Icarus,

I'm with you, no one rates a Pilot as high as a Pilot does.

For the love of god why do pilots keep thinking they're in the same league as Drs. Now, I'm not saying all Drs would make it as pilots, but if you looked at the requirements for Drs Vs Pilots I'd say it easily goes their way. Just to get into Uni for medicine you need to be in the top 2-3 %, then 6 yrs as it's post grad (as is dentistry and vet science), so you do your initial degree, then start your med degree, so 6 yrs at Uni, then your hospital training and that's at least 2 yrs.

Like I said I don't think every Dr would make it as a pilot (and not based on intelligence), but I'd bet you > 95% would piss it in and I'd say < 15% of Pilots would get through the Uni program for medicine. Far easier to train a pilot than a Dr, dentist, vet, engineer etc.

Not quite Dunning-Kruger, but on the way!

morno
27th Sep 2018, 04:32
I worked with doctors for several years. Academically they’re very smart, and while they know their craft very well, they weren’t always practically smart.

So I would argue that they would easily make good pilots. Think how many of the good pilots aren’t actually that smart academically and then the number of really smart pilots who aren’t very good!

Icarus2001
27th Sep 2018, 04:32
For the best reaction postulate that the job of pilot is a "blue collar" job notwithstanding most wear white ones. No formal education requirements only vocational training undertaken via self selection, if you can pay you can undertake it, not like medical school as you say. If you want a good idea of education levels read some of the maintenance entries in the DL/ML.

neville_nobody
27th Sep 2018, 07:26
For the best reaction postulate that the job of pilot is a "blue collar" job notwithstanding most wear white ones. No formal education requirements only vocational training undertaken via self selection, if you can pay you can undertake it, not like medical school as you say. If you want a good idea of education levels read some of the maintenance entries in the DL/ML.

Well if you want to play that game there is a High Court Judge who left school in Year 10 and never did a HSC or went to university. So you might as well throw lawyers on that blue collar pile as well.:E

Icarus2001
27th Sep 2018, 11:51
Really, how was this person admitted to the bar without any "formal study"? Do you have a name?

AerocatS2A
27th Sep 2018, 11:58
People who are comfortable with who they are and what they do don't spend time on the internet pontificating on whether their job is blue collar, white collar, professional, etc. Who cares?

neville_nobody
27th Sep 2018, 15:02
Really, how was this person admitted to the bar without any "formal study"? Do you have a name?

Susan Kiefel. First Chief Justice of Australia. She did have formal training it just wasn't by going to university. You can study Law through the Law Society. The Bar exam is independant of any university it is run by an admissions board. Having a Law Degree doesn't permit you to actually practice law.

Anyway point being it's the same as being a pilot as you still need to pass a bunch of exams whilst there being no real formal educational prerequisite.

However the reality is that in this day and age you need a degree if you want to be competitive in the job market. Same could be said for airline jobs too.

Burleigh Effect
27th Sep 2018, 20:42
Hi all

I see Cobham has advertised for FOs (EoI) on the Dash 8; out of interest how many hrs would FOs be flying annually? Is the Coastwatch job viewed as a viable long-term career option with a good work-life balance (cliché I know)?

Cheers

BE

bazza stub
27th Sep 2018, 23:02
I don’t imagine a company having to recruit with a cadet program is having much success attracting enough pilots to cover its flying. Also the push to lower wages and increase so called productivity probably means you won’t be seeing any work life balance.

AerocatS2A
28th Sep 2018, 01:04
Wages are going up in general at Coastwatch. When I was there my flying was typically limited by 90 in 14 duty limits and less frequently by my FAID score. Most duties were 10 hours for about 7 hours of flying. The 14 day limit meant you couldn’t usually do more than 9 duties in 14 days. My annual hours were typically around 650. This was with a reasonable crew numbers. My biggest year was 800 hours in 2007 when the company was facing similar crewing problems to now. Work life balance would be fine except for the bases. If you can adapt to the Broome or Darwin lifestyle then it could be a good career job. If not, you will always be looking for a way to leave. They have offered commuting options lately but don’t know if that is for FOs or not.

717tech
28th Sep 2018, 02:22
Captains are on about 80 hours a month, if not more. I believe the FOs are similar. As Aerocat has stated, you’ll generally run out of duty.

Icarus2001
28th Sep 2018, 04:39
I don’t imagine a company having to recruit with a cadet program is having much success attracting enough pilots to cover its flying. Qantas, Virgin, Rex, Singapore Airlines Malaysia Airlines....all in that group using cadets.

exfocx
28th Sep 2018, 06:01
Neville_Nobody,

Nice strawman / outlier argument. Early life and education[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Susan_Kiefel&action=edit&section=1&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]Kiefel was born in Cairns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairns), Queensland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queensland) in 1954. She attended Sandgate District State High School (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandgate_District_State_High_School), leaving at the age of 15 upon completing Year 10. In 1971, she completed secretarial training at Kangaroo Point (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_Point,_Queensland) Technical College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_and_Further_Education) on a scholarship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholarship). She worked as a secretary for a building society (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_society), an architect, and an exploration company before starting work as a receptionist for a group of barristers, Fitzgerald, Moynihan and Mack. During this time, she completed secondary school (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_school) and began studying law.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kiefel#cite_note-3)

In 1973, Kiefel joined solicitors Cannan and Peterson (which became Sly & Weigall Cannan & Peterson and is now Norton Rose Fulbright) as a legal clerk. Completing her education at night, she enrolled in the Barristers Admission Board course (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_Profession_Admission_Board) and passed her course with honours.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Kiefel#cite_note-Aus1408-4) In 1984, while on sabbatical leave, she completed a Master of Laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Laws) (LLM) at the University of Cambridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge), where she was awarded the C.J. Hamson Prize in Comparative Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_Law) and the Jennings Prize. In 2008, she was elected to an Honorary Fellowship of Wolfson College, Cambridge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfson_College,_Cambridge).

You're comparing 1% of 1% of the population with the rest of us, nice try, but yeah....NAH!

Capt. On Heat
28th Sep 2018, 06:51
I always assumed Cadets didn't have to pay a penny - that was the whole point about being a cadet wasn't it? You get selected via a rigourous process, focusing on actual piloting attributes, and therefore the airline scholarship kicks in.....

The kind of stuff you would have to be smoking to think it's a good idea to pay that kind of money for lower quality, sausage factory training would surely invalidate your class 1.
If people don't research their chosen industry and the best ways to go about getting their licence and ratings, it's hard to be too sympathetic when they get swindled

AerocatS2A
28th Sep 2018, 08:23
Airline scholarship? Snerk!

RHSandLovingIt
28th Sep 2018, 12:15
I always assumed Cadets didn't have to pay a penny - that was the whole point about being a cadet wasn't it? You get selected via a rigourous process, focusing on actual piloting attributes, and therefore the airline scholarship kicks in.....
No, the whole point of being a cadet was a "guaranteed" job with the airline once you completed the requisite training.

There are variations where the company stumps up the cash for training and then takes it out of your salary once you commence working etc... But in general, cadets need to cover the costs of training one way or another

Burleigh Effect
3rd Oct 2018, 18:12
@ Bazza Stub, AerocatS2A & 717tech

Thanks for the information and your perspectives. Certainly on the surface it seems an appealing job (flying wise anyway) but I understand the other factors can take the shine off even the best job if they become excessive.

Cheers

BE

dr dre
5th Oct 2018, 04:34
The kind of stuff you would have to be smoking to think it's a good idea to pay that kind of money for lower quality, sausage factory training would surely invalidate your class 1.

Why is flight training undertaken during a cadet program lower quality? How is doing CPL training through a non-cadet course at a normal flying school better? Aren’t they “sausage factories” too as they teach the same CASA syllabus? I mean it’s said as a derogatory term but essentially a training course that produces pilots who operate to the same standards and procedures is a “sausage factory” isn’t it?

Flyboy1987
5th Oct 2018, 04:47
Why is flight training undertaken during a cadet program lower quality? How is doing CPL training through a non-cadet course at a normal flying school better? Aren’t they “sausage factories” too as they teach the same CASA syllabus? I mean it’s said as a derogatory term but essentially a training course that produces pilots who operate to the same standards and procedures is a “sausage factory” isn’t it?

I attended half my training at a smaller flight school/ charter company, the second half at a “sausage factory”.

At the smaller school, my instructors were all charter pilots, flying heavy twins with a couple thousand hours each, guys who enjoyed to be there.

At the sausage factory, my first instructor was a 250 hour grade 3 who was there simply to build a few quick hours for himself and move on, which he did.
i’m sure that’s not the case with all schools, however I see that some of the meta instructors at certain flight schools have never flown a charter in their life, and haven’t touched a twin since their mecir flight test. They may know the ifr according to the aip, but do they really understand how to take advantage of the IF
rules? Have they ever had to calculate fuel for a max payload flight during poor weather? I doubt it. I know they have to start somewhere, but should they be starting by teaching something they don’t really know?

Notthisguy
8th Oct 2018, 15:21
Captains are on about 80 hours a month, if not more. I believe the FOs are similar. As Aerocat has stated, you’ll generally run out of duty.
For base captains this can be a problem, up to 110 hours, but for FO's no, you will not run out of duty.

In saying that, there's a lot of things that could very quickly change, I beleive there is more pilots on a hold file than there is off one.