Gallantry Ignored

[Old-Duffer]

About 25 years ago, the John Major Government made changes to the honours and awards system in the UK.



A key feature was to remove from most meritorious and gallantry awards the ‘rank distinction’. Thus the Military Cross would be awarded to commissioned and non- commissioned personnel alike. The Military Medal, previously available for award to non-commissioned personnel, was discontinued. The same combinations were applied to the DSC/DSM, DFC/DFM and AFC/AFM and the DCM was also withdrawn.



Apparently, the logic for the change was, at least in part, to make everybody equal in the awards process. Since then, the British Empire Medal (BEM) has been reintroduced.



My concern is the law of unintended consequences, resulting from the changes and this seems to include the possibility that non-commissioned personnel are having their gallantry overlooked or downplayed. It might be because the ‘bar’ for non-commissioned personnel has been raised, in which case I do not believe this was ever the intention.



It is impossible to do effective research without access to the number of citations being submitted and the numbers being rejected or downgraded as the citation moves through the approvals process. However, I can find no case of an RAF support helicopter crewman being awarded a DFC or AFC from 2000 and subsequently. I find it difficult to believe that SH crewmen, who share all the risks with their captains, have not distinguished themselves individually and with most serving multiple detachments to Afghanistan etc it seems inconceivable that none has been recommended.



Perhaps a return to the previous system would ensure more equitable treatment and greater recognition of the shared perils of operational service.

Old Duffer

[minigundiplomat]

Duffer,

You are right in many respects. The contemporary notion is that the Captain is awarded the medal on behalf of the crew; notwithstanding I know of several of my former peers who have done some pretty gallant stuff in recent years.

However, having spent the Iraq/Afghanistan era on the Chinook Force, I am not really aware of any discontent - the crewman are attracted to the job because of the cool sh1t they get to do, and the satisfaction that comes with a successful day flying the MERT (who do deserve medals) around theatre.

Have some of the MACR and SNCO's fulfilled the requirements for the former DFM or AFM? undoubtedly. Do they care? not really - I think its low down on a list of issues such as paybands, RRP, career management etc, etc, etc

[Chugalug2]

I understand the point you make OD and suspect that the unintended consequences are indeed as you describe, but the logic of the Major government reforms were in the main correct in my view. Gallantry should be properly and equally recognised, be it by Private or Star Rank alike. The problems created by crews sharing the same danger, be they in aircraft, tanks, or ships, are as old as the various craft they man. On the 30 Sqn Association we had an ex airman rear gunner who shared the very same danger as his two commissioned Fairey Battle crew members in 1940. Unlike mgd's Chinook crewmen, he carried a chip on his shoulder to his dying day. "There were medals for the pilots and navigators but none for we rear gunners", he would complain with some justification. The other issue that grated was that when he complained his Lewis gun overheated firing back at Me109's engaging them he was told, "Then don't fire it as much!". Hopefully he would now get the same medal as the nav. If neither did, then at least he would not be alone in being bare chested. It was the plain injustice of his treatment that rankled, which is not the case these days I feel.

[Wensleydale]

There were medals for the pilots and navigators but none for we rear gunners

The probable reason being that the rear gunner had to make no decisions which were above and beyond his duty. The pilot and navigator (the "observer" often a junior pilot in early WW2) came up with the route to target and made the decision to press home the attack in the face of opposition with the rear gunner having no say whatsoever.

[Pontius Navigator]

Chug, same on 12 with Garland and Gray, who remembers Reynolds? Portraits were commissioned of pilot and nav.

I suppose part of the logic, or illogic, is that most of the crew of a Sunderland or Lancaster had no vote on the decision. Also no one to write up individual citations when the aircraft was downed.

My father in law acted with great bravery rescuing a mate when his ship was sunk. His actions should I have merited some recognition but as it was a disaster no awards were made. He was never bitter about it, saving his mates life was its own reward.

[ValMORNA]

Wensleydale,

Surely in WW2 the route was pre-planned, as were the target details, and it was a taken that the target would be attacked once having arrived. DCO/DNCO? Was there any choice?

[Pontius Navigator]

ValMorna, don't confuse the well publicised Bomber Command main force target briefings with those of the expeditionary tactical air force in Belgium. The latter were very much reactive interdiction missions in cooperation with the Army.

Similarly the individual decisions to press on was true of the Swordfish attacks against Bismarck and Coastal Command against submarines.

On awards, at the time they changed I recall a Ch Tech had a citation upgraded from a CinC Commendation to an MBE. One of the first NCO awards. OTOH I knew a civilian awarded a BEM (not military list) who was intensely proud of his BEM and in no way envious of MBEs.

[c130jbloke]

A bit of bling awarded to a pilot "on behalf of the crew" always ground my gears and was / is IMHO - bollocks.

If a man or woman does something that requires courage, then they themselves should be recognised. This give it to a pilot thing always struck me as a bit of class discrimination.

[Tankertrashnav]

As a nav my attitude to this has always been - when it all goes well it's the captain who gets the medal. On the other hand if it all turns to worms the captain is the one standing to attention in front of the AOC - or possibly a court martial. Seems fair to me.

That doesn't mean I don't approve of gallantry awards for individual acts of heroism by other crew members

One thing - I wish in 1992 they had started to name the crosses (DSC, MC, DFC, AFC). Their medal equivalents had always been named, which made them much more interesting. Many times when dealing I bought and sold a Military Cross which because it had become separated from the other medals was unfortunately anonymous and consequently far less interesting (and less valuable).

[Onceapilot]

Good points, well made, OD! :ok:
On a similar vein, we should always remember that most brave actions remain unrecognised, IMO. I also think that, if the MOD could devalue the efforts of many thousands of deserving long-service Officers by imposing a pathetic date qualification on that award, then they could damn well plan to devalue other awards.:yuk:

OAP

[NutLoose]

The probable reason being that the rear gunner had to make no decisions which were above and beyond his duty. The pilot and navigator (the "observer" often a junior pilot in early WW2) came up with the route to target and made the decision to press home the attack in the face of opposition with the rear gunner having no say whatsoever.

The rear gunners on Battles in France were often ground trades who volunteered to do the job, indeed when they landed they were expected to resume their normal jobs, I read an excellent article about one surviving crew that made it home and getting out the LAC gunner that had fought throughout the French campaign was stunned to find all the Air Gunners were now fully paid up Sgt Aircrew... If anything they deserved the awards more.

[Danny42C]

PN (#5),

Yes, I believe the justification in that case amounted to: "He wasn't part of the decision making process - and so didn't have to be brave to get killed". Thank you for his name (Reynolds) - didn't know that before.

To this day (eg) the DFM is deemed (by the ignorant) to be of lesser value than the DFC, whereas (from a wartime aircrew who has neither) we know the reverse was/is in many cases true.

If we have abolished the rank divide (and a good thing, too), how about upgrading all existing (say MM awards to MC ?) - and the rest likewise. Oh, I forgot, it would cost too much in these days of financial stringency. Blood is cheap, though .....

[Slow Biker]

During the '60s Radfan campaign an armourer attached to the RAF Regt, he would have been SAC/JT in those days, was awarded a BEM (Gallantry). He was put up for a MM, but as we were not officially involved out there it was changed to a BEM.

[ian16th]

I remember reading somewhere that during WWII, holders of the DFM considered it harder to earn than a DFC.
This was because officers were willing to recommend each other for medals, but the NCO's couldn't.

The only gallantry medal I witnessed being earned was a Cpl fireman earning a GM, at Coningsby in 1957.
The write up. (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=154883)
Many thought that this was an 'other ranks' GC, but it aint!
Although primarily for civilians, an officer can earn a GM.

[DC10RealMan]

I read somewhere that the RAF Museum was going to name the Fairey Battle that is in the process of being restored as the "Roy Reynolds" Fairey Battle in belated recognition of this young mans sacrifice. I, having stood at the graves of Garland, Reynolds and Gray in Belgium withheld no distinction particularly as LAC Reynolds could have stayed on the ground in safety as his professional groundcrew qualification demanded.

[Slow Biker]

Another fireman, Cpl John Saunders, earned a GM for fighting a fire at the mustard gas forward filling depot at Lords Bridge nr Cambridge. An explosion followed by fire damaged a storage pot containing some 120 tons of mustard. Cpl Saunders directed the firefighting at great risk to himself.
The site was cleared in the 1990s.

[NutLoose]

The Battle is at Cosford, I took some pictures last month, I will look. See if anything is on them.

[The Oberon]

I remember reading somewhere that during WWII, holders of the DFM considered it harder to earn than a DFC.
This was because officers were willing to recommend each other for medals, but the NCO's couldn't.

The only gallantry medal I witnessed being earned was a Cpl fireman earning a GM, at Coningsby in 1957.
The write up. (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=154883)
Many thought that this was an 'other ranks' GC, but it aint!
Although primarily for civilians, an officer can earn a GM.

I thought that for Bomber Command, 30 missions qualified for DFC or DFM depending on rank, no discrimination there. I can't comment on awards for single acts of bravery. Someone mentioned the value difference between medals and crosses. With the cessation of medals being awarded, they will become rarer and therefore more valuable to collectors. I know that, in simple terms, my SAM minus rosette is worth more than a SAM with rosette because there were fewer of them. This obviously doesn't apply to a SAM + rosette belonging to someone who otherwise distinguished themselves.

[Slow Biker]

Ian 16th. ORs can and do 'earn' the GM. Further to Cpl Saunders at #16, a sgt armourer EOD tech was awarded such for rescuing some children from a minefield after GW 1.

[Tankertrashnav]

During the '60s Radfan campaign an armourer attached to the RAF Regt, he would have been SAC/JT in those days, was awarded a BEM (Gallantry). He was put up for a MM, but as we were not officially involved out there it was changed to a BEM.









I was on a parade at Catterick around 1965 when a chap got the BEM for gallantry. I am not sure if this was the same chap but I think his name was Hobbs. One incident I definitely remember, in those pre-velcro days the AOC did not pin the medal on securely, and as the airman saluted and did a smart about turn the medal flew off his chest and skidded across the hangar floor! Incidentally there were 19 MMs for Aden between 1964 - 1968 and whilst I do not know of any awarded to RAF Regiment personnel, I certainly knew a Sqn Ldr B.P.Coote, MC, RAF Regiment who had won his medal in Aden.

Turning to the DFC/DFM and their relative scarcity, including first and second bars there were almost 23,000 awards of the DFC during WW2, making it the commonest gallantry award for that conflict by a country mile, across all three services. The equivalent figure for the DFM is just under 6,700, less than a third of the total DFCs. In spite of this, from my own experience in the medal trade groups containing the DFC always attract a premium over similar DFM groups. Why this should be so I have never quite understood, but there you are, that's the way it is.

With the cessation of medals being awarded, they will become rarer and therefore more valuable to collectors. I know that, in simple terms, my SAM minus rosette is worth more than a SAM with rosette because there were fewer of them. This obviously doesn't apply to a SAM + rosette belonging to someone who otherwise distinguished themselves.


Without wishing to denigrate your service, as I am sure your SAM was well deserved, that is factually incorrect. SAMs with rosettes always fetch more on the market than those without, When valuing medals, scarcity is never as important as desirabilty. The best example I can think of is the Victoria Cross which is 10 times commoner than the George Cross, but will always sell for far more money

[The Oberon]

I was on a parade at Catterick around 1965 when a chap got the BEM for gallantry. I am not sure if this was the same chap but I think his name was Hobbs. One incident I definitely remember, in those pre-velcro days the AOC did not pin the medal on securely, and as the airman saluted and did a smart about turn the medal flew off his chest and skidded across the hangar floor! Incidentally there were 19 MMs for Aden between 1964 - 1968 and whilst I do not know of any awarded to RAF Regiment personnel, I certainly knew a Sqn Ldr B.P.Coote, MC, RAF Regiment who had won his medal in Aden.

Turning to the DFC/DFM and their relative scarcity, including first and second bars there were almost 23,000 awards of the DFC during WW2, making it the commonest gallantry award for that conflict by a country mile, across all three services. The equivalent figure for the DFM is just under 6,700, less than a third of the total DFCs. In spite of this, from my own experience in the medal trade groups containing the DFC always attract a premium over similar DFM groups. Why this should be so I have never quite understood, but there you are, that's the way it is.



Without wishing to denigrate your service, as I am sure your SAM was well deserved, that is factually incorrect. SAMs with rosettes always fetch more on the market than those without, When valuing medals, scarcity is never as important as desirabilty. The best example I can think of is the Victoria Cross which is 10 times commoner than the George Cross, but will always sell for far more money

Thanks TTN, that's good to know. All I have to do now is find the thing.

[Wander00]

Grandfather of a friend was nav/bomb aimer in Wg Cdr HG Malcolm's crew. Those two and the gunner were killed, Malcolm won the VC, but the others' gallantry was unrecognised by any medal.

[Tankertrashnav]

Grandfather of a friend was nav/bomb aimer in Wg Cdr HG Malcolm's crew. Those two and the gunner were killed, Malcolm won the VC, but the others' gallantry was unrecognised by any medal.

At the time the only gallantry medal which could be awarded posthumously was the Victoria Cross. I have seen reference to posthumous DFCs, etc, but these can only refer to awards which were recommended for an individual who was still alive but who subsequently died before the actual medal was presented. An MID could be awarded posthumously but I have no information if this was the case in this incident. The Falklands War was the first major conflict for which gallantry medals other than the VC were awarded posthumously.

Incidentally doing a bit of background reading on this operation, which can best be described as a suicide mission, I discovered that Lady Tedder named the Malcolm Clubs after Hugh Malcolm, a fact that had previously passed me by.

[Old-Duffer]

...... and of course Lady Tedder was killed in an air crash in front of her husband, when she was returning with others from a tour visiting the troops.

Tedder subsequently married a divorced lady, whose son joined the RAF and was killed in a flying accident at Cranwell in 1950 (?).

O-D

[orca]

Is there a similar pattern of recognition/ lack of it in services that don’t insist that the pilot is captain of the aircraft?

[wokkamate]

Tony Davey (Chinook crewman) got an AFC in 2010.

[orca]

There is a chance that time and red wine have had their effect - but when I guested with ‘the other bunch’ in 2003 the XO of HMS Invincible was an observer - and wore a cross of some description from the Lynx actions fought in GW1.

[alfred_the_great]

DFC. And he was bat**** crazy.

[Wander00]

Malcolm led his squadron to carry out the attack without the planned fighter escort, because of the importance of the mission