Cumbria - Dauphin in the fog... [Archive]

212man

3rd Aug 2018, 08:39

Gents, the subtle glorification of a truly **** bit of airmanship is a risk to our brethren on ROTORHEAD with low skills a high egos. There are no circumstances acceptable EVER to fly in such a manner as to risk the safety of your aircraft or crew.

I understand your point but if you actually look at the video you will see that the aircraft is basically hover taxying. Given the nature of the work the organisation this aircraft supports does, do you not think there may be circumstances where insertion or extraction in similar conditions might be necessary, and that the time to become skilled/proficient is probably not at the moment it's required? Not arguing, just discussing.

Flying Bull

3rd Aug 2018, 08:48

Gents, the subtle glorification of a truly **** bit of airmanship is a risk to our brethren on ROTORHEAD with low skills a high egos. There are no circumstances acceptable EVER to fly in such a manner as to risk the safety of your aircraft or

On the first glance, you‘re right.
But as always, only having little information, who knows?
May be the crew knows the routing, has been there before, is it a bad weather crossing opportunity?
May be it’s just the ridge, much better 500 meters before and behind?
May be they are on a live saving mission, where somebody will die for sure, if they don’t fly?
Seems, the crew is working together, with an open door for better vis.
They are going slowly at the side of the road to avoid trucktraffic, gear down.
They have a stone wall, which makes good visual reference.
I wouldnˋt throw the first stone, cause I have been in an similar situation, just worse.
Caught out in a heavy shower at night (NVG), radar telling me, either way around at least 15 miles of ****ty weather....
Hillside, with trees.
So I ended up, hovering along a powerline, which I illuminated with the landing light, cause I couldn’t see from mast to mast and would have certainly ended in it, if I had lost sight of it.
One eye on the fuel gauge, which seemed to empty far to fast, hoping for a clearing, where I could put the bird down - but didn’t find one.
Nowadays I for sure circumnavigate that area if the weather gets bad again - and or terminate the flight.
Still, last winter, have been searching for someone on another hillside, where the wind cumulated the clouds along the slope.
It was night again and we were around 100 feet ground in some places, but with an escaperoute visiable and a crew, who worked together. Would have been an interesting sight from the ground as well...

Hughes500

3rd Aug 2018, 08:49

PlasticCabDriver

3rd Aug 2018, 09:15

Yes, those who need to know already know who it was.

As someone once said to me after arriving at our refuel airfield during a mission: "What was the vis like when you broke cloud at MDH?"

I answered truthfully: "We didn't fly an instrument approach, The vis here was too poor to fly IFR, so we had to maintain VMC".
I did have top cover...

But these days the (civvy) rules are different and I stick to them.

That was one thing that struck me when going through Shawbury. On BFTS when the weather was too bad for GH we did IF, on helicopters when the weather was too bad for IF, we did GH!

Hawkeye0001

3rd Aug 2018, 09:19

May be the crew knows the routing, has been there before, is it a bad weather crossing opportunity?
May be it’s just the ridge, much better 500 meters before and behind?
May be they are on a live saving mission, where somebody will die for sure, if they don’t fly?

None of these points make a particularly good excuse to pull this stunt on purpose. I'm sure we've all got ourselves in a crappy situation like this, but as you said the lesson you should take home (if you get home in one piece) is to either go around ****ty weather next time or land). And: no patient's life is ever important enough to knowingly risk and endanger the lifes of your two or three crew members and innocent bystanders on the ground.

Nige321

3rd Aug 2018, 09:22

None of these points make a particularly good excuse to pull this stunt on purpose. I'm sure we've all got ourselves in a crappy situation like this, but as you said the lesson you should take home (if you get home in one piece) is to either go around ****ty weather next time or land). And: no patient's life is ever important enough to knowingly risk and endanger the lifes of your two or three crew members and innocent bystanders on the ground.

It's not a HEMS flight, it's a bunch of miltary types you wouldn't want to meet on a dark night...

Flying Bull

3rd Aug 2018, 09:24

212

But why would you want to hover taxi in that ? Difficult to see wire lines as it is, bearing in mind most follow roads and low level ones arent on a chart ! Not a very good advert for junior pilots, doesnt matter if it is a HEMS heli or not

May be there are no powerlines along this road?
If you fly an assigned area, you normally have some bad weather routes, which you know throughout, especially where the wires are and where not.
“My area“ is also divided by a long ridgeline, where clouds like to accumulate.
Every 20 miles or so I know a gap, where I could try, if need be, without risking to encounter unknown powerlines.
Its always a juggle between the mission, the experience of the crew and what you can do without risking too much....

diginagain

3rd Aug 2018, 09:29

It's not a HEMS flight, it's a bunch of miltary types you wouldn't want to meet on a dark night...

Or on a dirty hillside for that matter....

212man

3rd Aug 2018, 09:55

Not sure where the chat about HEMS comes from after I used the terms 'insertion/extraction'? For those that still haven't got it: 658 Squadron Army Air Corps (http://www.eliteukforces.info/air-support/658-Squadron/)

Flying Bull

3rd Aug 2018, 10:13

@212man
so it’s military flying, not civil
and risking their lives to protect and serve is part of their job.
Sure they won‘t tell us why they were there 😏

Nige321

3rd Aug 2018, 10:23

It's the Kirkstone Pass a couple of miles from Ullswater.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1250/screen_shot_2018_08_03_at_11_19_58_32aa05089c7bebf9aec47915c 9e959b44af28524.jpg
The view from the car in better visibility

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/2000x1250/screen_shot_2018_08_03_at_11_20_08_9c3b8e707d25b5b8c47325100 2731241e53e130c.jpg

Looking the other way, where the Dauphin was heading...

Fortyodd2

3rd Aug 2018, 10:26

All I see is a “weather balloon”................

[email protected]

3rd Aug 2018, 10:28

Gents, the subtle glorification of a truly **** bit of airmanship is a risk to our brethren on ROTORHEAD with low skills a high egos. There are no circumstances acceptable EVER to fly in such a manner as to risk the safety of your aircraft or crew Uninformed cobblers DB, you have no idea of their crew composition, skill level, experience or task yet you choose to jump on the outrage bus...........

SASless

3rd Aug 2018, 14:13

There is a time and place for everything.....and without knowing the full circumtances....how does one properly judge?

If the route was known to be free of obstructions and it was the Pass that was fogged in and better conditions were at each end...the controlling rules afforded dispensation for the flight in such conditions....then what is the problem?

If it was a "special" flight....then don't we want the crew to have the expertise, experience, and proficiency to carry out their Tasking?

As we do not know....and are not going to know....then there should not be a very crowded "Outrage" Bus.

it's a bunch of miltary types you wouldn't want to meet on a dark night...

No problem meeting them anywhere and anytime....so long as they remember I am on their side of things!

Certainly not the kind of folk you wish to have any kind of feud with!

misterbonkers

3rd Aug 2018, 14:25

Well said Crab! I want my special forces that protect me to be the best most experienced and capable in the world.

DOUBLE BOGEY

3rd Aug 2018, 17:33

ShyTorque

3rd Aug 2018, 17:35

Best to bear in mind that even if "our chaps" didn't train to fly in very poor visibility to get certain missions done, the other side will.

DOUBLE BOGEY

3rd Aug 2018, 18:22

Shy....there are rules to prevent the young, dumb and full of c*m from self destructing. We are not at war!

they are flying in less than 50m vis. Suicide unless Lady Luck holds your hand.

SASless

3rd Aug 2018, 18:26

We are not at war!

Fight like you Train.....Train like you Fight!

Some Folks are always prepared at very short notice to confront evil nose to nose!

DOUBLE BOGEY

3rd Aug 2018, 18:30

SAS I prefer “Train Hard.....Fight Easy” However there has to be limits and common sense!

oldbeefer

3rd Aug 2018, 19:25

Takes me back to Odius in the early eighties. Happy hour on Friday night, thick, thick fog then heard the sound of a Puma. All went quiet. 10 mins later, LB and crew hurtled through the bar window looking for a beer. No one was quite sure how they'd done it, and they didn't say.

MightyGem

3rd Aug 2018, 19:53

But why would you want to hover taxi in that ?
Because before doing it for real, you want to practice first.

ShyTorque

3rd Aug 2018, 22:02

We are not at war!

So why do we need our armed forces?
Tomorrow, maybe...

sycamore

3rd Aug 2018, 22:10

If you want to practice it for real,then close the public roads and f*&k about to satisfy your ego..In this case if a family were driving along there,and had an accident due to the startle effect,lapse in concentration,whatever,then who would be to blame...?HO(OLI)GANS Heroes...?

Hedski

3rd Aug 2018, 22:58

Train hard yes. However if this was training being so close to members of the public so as to put them at risk is not acceptable. Go do it in Otterburn. Any dash cam in general use contains a wide angle lens. This is clearly the case therefore the aircraft and rotor blades will be closer than they look.... and being able to hear it pass on the audio backs this up. I wonder how the cyclist who was overtaken at the start of the clip felt a few seconds later. Might downwash have blown him across a greasy wet road into the oncoming car.... just a bit of perspective. Of course if it was for tasking then fair enough. Can’t imagine it is though. Being a twin IFR cab though a high level transit of the lakes might be best. All just food for thought.

SASless

4th Aug 2018, 00:12

No one hurt, no property damaged, so why all the hurry to get on the Outrage Bus....how were any of you harmed by any of this?

The aircraft was clear of the roadway.... no wires close by....after all it wasn’t a Purple Flight or a Charter.

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 06:00

There are no excuses for flying like this along a public road. When you work in the Military, Police or HEMS you are supposed to add value. In my view this crew will be young and inexperienced. That’s proven by the **** decision they are making and the real hero’s, the boys in the back, are along for the ride whether they agree or otherwise.
I have made similar mistakes and also survived. However they are mistakes. My original post is aimed at recognising this incident for what it really is........a bad decision and poor airmanship. It’s a mistake to tar the SAS themselves with this as they are not at the controls.

[email protected]

4th Aug 2018, 06:13

In my view this crew will be young and inexperienced.And, again, that is where you are wrong.

paco

4th Aug 2018, 06:46

So when I pulled an injured bike rider off a mountain in thick fog on the TT races and transported a dying soldier to hospital with my skids on the ground to get over hills, those were mistakes, were they? sometimes you just gotta have a go (within your capabilities).

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 09:15

Paco you are describing HEMS. There are minimum vis and cloud base rules in the SPA and they do not allow flight in thick fog.....so not only mistakes but blatant disregard for the rules. The number 1 priority in any medical emergency is to not become a casualty yourself. The SPA contains limits to stop the gung-ho from killing themselves and any other poor sap they take with the. IOM TT HEMS.......subject to same EASA rules as everyone else.

in the case of IOM TT a road response is a few minutes away. The rider knows and has accepted the risks. Your crew deserve better. They deserve and should expect you to make an effort to follow the rules.

NEXT!

Cows getting bigger

4th Aug 2018, 09:57

I see professionals going about their business. Legally.

meleagertoo

4th Aug 2018, 10:04

I think it's absolutely unbelieveable that some people are slagging off the special forces for undertaking realistic training in realistic conditions. Their mandate covers all sorts of scenarios the best of us can hardly imagine, but clearly some here aren't anywhere near that imaginative.
The ability to insert or extract a team in any and all weather (or smoke and dust) is clearly of extreme interest to such people and I for one am glad they are doing it and not constrained by snowflakes and silly post-industrial age H & S nonsense.
Anyone who imagines this sort of thing is done unthinkingly and ad-hoc without briefing or preparation is living in a vacuum. Maybe one day they'll be the ones locked in a box and need someone with these skills to get them out ad-hoc and without much briefing and preparation, and would then be damn glad the prep and practice had been done elsewhere...

serf

4th Aug 2018, 10:23

And, again, that is where you are wrong.

So it was you then crab?

Evil Twin

4th Aug 2018, 11:25

paco

4th Aug 2018, 11:28

[email protected]

4th Aug 2018, 11:50

So it was you then crab?No, but I may have trained them in a previous life;)

DB - you do need a bit of a reality check with regard to what was being done here - you have absolutely no idea what task they were on.

HEMS might not be allowed to do this but UKSAR operate under EASA rules, under CAP 999 and they would be allowed to operate like this to save life! However, I'm with Paco and, if you are the only asset, and you have the ability and training to mitigate the risk, then save lives if it is possible.

I, like many SAR pilots, have had to turn down jobs or turn back because the rescue was simply too dangerous but a straightforward hovertaxy in cloud with decent references and an escape route/IF option really isn't that risky.

homonculus

4th Aug 2018, 12:58

The rules go out of the window for the purpose of saving life as far as I am concerned.

Wow Paco, glad I have never flown in the back of your cab. Putting your team at risk as well as the aircraft and third persons....... Another reason for a Chinese wall to exist between medical and flight crew in HEMS

Crab hits the nail on the head - there is a limit. It may be more than the limit on civilian systems, but there is a limit, and rules, and we stick to them

As for this flight, we will never know, nor due the nature of the work should we.

paco

4th Aug 2018, 13:10

All the crews I have been with have been perfectly happy, and have said so, including when going under wires etc. I'm glad you've never been in my cab. I know my limits and the risks involved. If they happen to be higher (or lower?) than other peoples' then so be it. I don't see a particular risk with the Dauphin. Meat and drink to anyone who has ever been in N Ireland.

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 13:34

Paco there is no doubt you have skills otherwise you would not have survived. However, JSP318 also has rules as you well know and after a crew wiped themselves out in Battus, responding to a medivac in ****e conditions, the rules were more rigidly applied. Civilian SAR rules also would prevent flight in fog below MSA. Medical missions require maturity on the part of the flight crew. Certainly I would never risk my life, let alone the crew, for a motorcycle racer who has voluntarily taken excessive risks. I write this as an relatively experienced HEMS pilot and a motorcyclist.

Remember Operation Overlord was delayed until the weather improved! The AAC lost a number of aircraft and crews in BAOR due to flight in inappropriate weather. On my pilots course and throughout my training and service no one ever suggested flight in fog, close to the ground, was required or a good idea.

Those of you advocating helicopter flight in fog close to the ground need close supervision and to be reminded to read the rules.

Finally, the more seriously injured the patients are, the chances of survival are reduced. Should we risk 3 or 4 lives for the sake of 1 which may not survive anyway? For anyone who has conducted intense HEMS operations (and I mean several jobs every working day), they will recognise this as the true paradox of HEMS! At the end of the working day I want to go home. Compliance with the rules and limits is the foundation of safety. Breach them at your own peril and good luck to your loved ones if you pile in while breaking rules or breaching limits because the Insurance Company will exploit your enthusiasm to your detriment.

md 600 driver

4th Aug 2018, 13:53

Double bogey
this wasn’t hems!!!
if it was the SAS (which the colour /type of aircraft suggest They tend to do the opposite and when they are finished HEMS or Medevac take over

if if I wanted some help from SF I would be thankful they practiced in bad weather conditions before carrying my troop out

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 14:44

I have said my piece. If some of you want to fly in fog........enjoy! You all know it’s dangerous, below limits and will invalidate your insurance............good luck!

Qwikstop

4th Aug 2018, 14:50

The Dauphin caused a car carrying a family to stop unexpectedly on a narrow road in poor visibility and a multi-vehicle RTC was a tangible risk of the helicopter's low level manoeuvre. We don't know the circumstances of the flight or the risk-benefit of this particular mission, but an inquest is not the best place to justify those decisions.

SASless

4th Aug 2018, 14:59

Rules....not one of them is etched in stone!

Look carefully at the video and look for visual cues behind the aircraft.

Theres a lot of green under the gray.

[email protected]

4th Aug 2018, 15:32

Oh dear DB - I would love to see you on your high horse trying to complete a mission with a suddenly lowering cloudbase (and you know that happens in the hills and can be very localised) with not enough fuel or suitable weather for an IF abort (because of the task) - if it takes a few hundred yards of careful hovertaxying to get VMC the other side (where the terrain doesn't permit a safe 180 or a precautionary landing) what would you do?

You can't see what the crew are looking at - they are more than well trained enough to assess letterbox situations and what terrain and weather to expect on the other side.

BTW 1 - JSP318 is so last century and these boys are flying a twin-engine, fully IFR capable aircraft with a good AP system - not an unstabilised Gazelle like in BATUS.

BTW 2 - straight from CAP999 Operating minima for the dispatch and continuation of a SAR operational flight are at the discretion of the aircraft commander. However, he is to consider the urgency of the task, crew and aircraft capability and the requirement to recover the aircraft safely

paco

4th Aug 2018, 15:57

How do I know who is badly injured and is or is not likely to survive? Even if I was medically qualified I'm not on the scene and in a position to judge. My job is (or was) to do the best I possibly can to assist based on the advice of the guys getting their boots dirty. And I will do that up to my own personal limits, which may or may not coincide with anybody else's. None of us says "Oh goody, here's fog, let's go fly!" But if it comes across our path, we should make the best judgment we can.

A safety point for those who have not been there - the helicopter creates its own bad weather - if you are forced to stop, and turn round you will find that the air has been stirrred up behind you to make your trip home likely worse, so the go decision should not be taken lightly.

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 16:22

Crab.....I have completed a few HEMS missions......almost 3,500 of them. Certainly enough to have experienced most of what the weather can upchuck at you. As I posted earlier, I have made a similar mistake....but I see it only as that. A mistake and learned from it!

there are rules and there are limits. For CIVSAR I bow to CRABS greater knowledge but the principles remain the same. Certainly in HEMS we should strive to apply them. My Ambulance Ops Director once told me not to take any risks with his crews. I was impressed by his guidance and told him so. He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.

PACO the answer is “you don’t know” However, after you have exploited your HEMS alleviation’s to the maximum, almost taken a car bonnet through the disc and risked everything......only to discover a broken ankle to some such other minor scrape.....you learn to deploy your greater judgement! As you don’t seem to understand this I am guessing you have dipped your toe in HEMS and not really served your time. For the rest of us we deploy ourselves professionally and within our alleviation’s. And I want to be clear.....the HEMS rules provide more than enough scope to get into trouble. Performance alleviation’s, no safe forced landing AND flight in reduced weather. Only a start staring fool would elect to apply his own personal lower limits. As such Paco, I have to say you preach utter bollocks that has no place in modern HEMS operations if longevity interests you at all.

helimutt

4th Aug 2018, 16:23

There is no road response on the TT because the road is being used for the race. That's why they need a helicopter....

The rules go out of the window for the purpose of saving life as far as I am concerned.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but I can't believe you wrote that. I'd certainly hope that anyone reading what you've written disagrees. Usually I agree with your offerings to PPRuNe but to say you'd risk the lives of others in the back of your helicopter to save a life? Is there actually a need? You only have to look at the accident stats in USA where the HEMS aircraft has crashed in poor conditions. If it's not safe or sensible to launch, then you don't launch. To say otherwise, in my personal opinion, is maybe a bit too bold.

edited to add that i'm referring not to Mil ops as I have zero idea about such things, but UK HEMS?

paco

4th Aug 2018, 16:52

I don't know that there's a need or not, and any such decision would have to be in agreement with the team. We have to draw a line somewhere. If I fly for a company I fly up to the limits of their ops manual and/or whatever Air Navigation order is valid at the time (one of the best compliments I ever got was from Chalky White who said that I flew exactly down the line that JCB wanted). BUT, there is a clause in the rules that says they can be broken for the purpose of saving life - which I will make use of a) if I have to and b) if it's within my own capabilities. If the ambulance chief says don't mess with his crews, fine - it's his money and pilots are only in charge up till the point where the trip becomes illegal or unsafe. But I also can't believe some of the garbage that is being spouted by some of the professionally outraged.

"If it's not safe or sensible to launch, then you don't launch." Of course - I haven't said otherwise. But usually you don't know that until you have launched. That's when we have to exercise some professional judgment, which I seem to have done successfully for over 8700 accident free hours, and not just dipping my toe in. When did we start not even trying? I must have missed that one.

Chris Kebab

4th Aug 2018, 17:18

As an aside, the nationals have picked this up, pic is on p20 of today's Times
...hardly surprising really. If they need to train in those conditions - fine. But I would question the judgement of doing in the proximity of a public road like that.

SASless

4th Aug 2018, 17:30

My Ambulance Ops Director once told me not to take any risks with his crews. I was impressed by his guidance and told him so. He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.

Absolutely spot on!

Folks were dying waiting on ground transport long before the Helicopter was invented.....and will continue to do so when the Helicopter cannot get to them.

If you cannot get them back to the medical facility due to weather....if you land out or make an IFR recovery....you will call.....a Ground Ambulance to complete the transfer!

griffothefog

4th Aug 2018, 17:41

One might have 500ft at the airfield and a perfectly good alternate for IFR transition, but it’s only when you get into the mission that deteriorating conditions force your hand...
Personally, I’m a suck it and see merchant If the info is genuinely life threatening, not a “risk accessment chappy”
However, that being said, these guys train for serious **** day in and day out, and I know which face I’d rather see hover taxiing under the wires if my guts were hanging out....

[email protected]

4th Aug 2018, 17:45

FFS - retain some perspective here - this wasn't a HEMS mission so all those arguments are irrelevant. BTW the advice of an ambulance manager who isn't a pilot really isn't pertinent - his job is to keep his medics safe , not make aviation judgements.

Second - they were not deliberately training in those conditions - if you have to get from A to B and you are limited on fuel, constrained by terrain and caught out temporarily by a very localised bit of weather - you do what they did, have a look - if it's not good enough you turn round (if you can) if it is good enough you carry on into the nicer weather.

Remember you can't see the conditions behind the car - ie where the aircraft is going - so you have no clue in your armchair what the crew could and could not see.

Anyone who has flown in that area knows how quickly the weather can go from epic to sh*te and back again within a few hundred metres.

But I would question the judgement of doing in the proximity of a public road like that. the best aid you can have in those conditions is a line feature - it gives you a visual reference and helps your navigation, The worst thing they could have done is meander 'off-piste'. Anyway, anyone driving fast in those conditions is far more likely to cause an accident than the helicopter's presence.

Georg1na

4th Aug 2018, 18:02

FFS - retain some perspective here - this wasn't a HEMS mission so all those arguments are irrelevant. BTW the advice of an ambulance manager who isn't a pilot really isn't pertinent - his job is to keep his medics safe , not make aviation judgements.

Second - they were not deliberately training in those conditions - if you have to get from A to B and you are limited on fuel, constrained by terrain and caught out temporarily by a very localised bit of weather - you do what they did, have a look - if it's not good enough you turn round (if you can) if it is good enough you carry on into the nicer weather.

Remember you can't see the conditions behind the car - ie where the aircraft is going - so you have no clue in your armchair what the crew could and could not see.

Anyone who has flown in that area knows how quickly the weather can go from epic to sh*te and back again within a few hundred metres.

the best aid you can have in those conditions is a line feature - it gives you a visual reference and helps your navigation, The worst thing they could have done is meander 'off-piste'. Anyway, anyone driving fast in those conditions is far more likely to cause an accident than the helicopter's presence.
If you can;t read the road signs your are too high.............................

MOSTAFA

4th Aug 2018, 18:26

After all the publicity this is getting I have no doubt the pilot in question will be having an interview without coffee not least from the authoriser and quite rightly so.

helicrazi

4th Aug 2018, 18:30

After all the publicity this is getting I have no doubt the pilot in question will be having an interview without coffee not least from the authoriser and quite rightly so.

seriously???? :ugh:

MOSTAFA

4th Aug 2018, 18:33

Yes - SERIOUSLY. UNLESS of course you know differently and have experience of such operations and even then I’d still say ballocks.

hihover

4th Aug 2018, 18:58

seriously???? :ugh:

Absolutely seriously!!

[email protected]

4th Aug 2018, 19:17

Why should the publicity make any difference? I have no doubt the crew reported the low flying below minima on their return and their reasons for doing so - that's what you have an in-brief for.

For the chain of command to react in a knee jerk fashion just because someone posted it on t'internet in the hope of making a few quid would be very disingenuous.

MightyGem

4th Aug 2018, 19:35

The AAC lost a number of aircraft and crews in BAOR due to flight in inappropriate weather.
Which ones were those??

Bravo73

4th Aug 2018, 20:37

As an aside, the nationals have picked this up, pic is on p20 of today's Times

Yep: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-cumbria-45069217/helicopter-filmed-emerging-from-fog-just-metres-from-cars

airpolice

4th Aug 2018, 21:22

This is awesome t'internet judge and jury at the very finest end of that spectrum. All of a judgement based on a small part of the evidence.

If you weren't there, you don't know.

I've been in the back, and front, (even at one point strapped to the outside, in a litter on a Souix) of military, and civil helicopters doing things "that needed done" for the job. Of course "needed" is a variable definition, but that's part of the fun, is it not?

Never, have I ever thought that if I was uncomfortable with what we were doing, would I keep quiet. I doubt that any (ok maybe one or two) posting on here know the crew, but lots of folk reading this know the ethos of the flight in the video.

The car driver reacts, and has time to verbalise his response, before the aircraft is identified in the video. Some of the "piss poor vis" comes from the limitations and performance of dash cam.

Even if, and it's a huge if, the circumstances are in fact as they look, where do you get the idea that anyone on board is not "on board" with what's going on?

The aircraft commander is almost certainly not arrogantly endangering the crew and aircraft, he's apparently part of a team, all of whom are apparently practising doing what needs practised for.

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 21:31

Mightgem, Detmold cab into the ridge......I think 85 or 86.
Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager. Memory fades.
The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.

I am sure there are a few more.

Crab....your dismissal of the Ambulance Operations Directors guidance speaks volumes in respect of your lack of understanding on exactly how HEMS works. The Commander only makes the decision not to fly. The HEMS task can only be requested by Ambulance Operations. In addition, the Ambulance Service is the client. If the Director issues a directive we comply where we can.

TeeS

4th Aug 2018, 21:38

I suspect that people who have day to day knowledge on this operation aren’t commenting on this subject but as an aside, hover taxiing in fog is an entirely different exercise from scud running i.e. flying in IMC below MSA. Ask anyone who is qualified to operate in an RVR below 400m how they get from the runway to dispersal. I do realise that will be in a rather more controlled environment than involved here.
Cheers
TeeS

[email protected]

4th Aug 2018, 21:48

DB - I have never claimed to be HEMs qualified or experienced but my comments about ambulance directors are far better informed than yours about this crew, their capabilities, their task and their particular situation.

I get that you are glorified ambulance driver in modern HEMS but don't confuse that with SAR or SF - different world entirely.

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 21:52

DOUBLE BOGEY

4th Aug 2018, 21:56

Crab sorry mate....there is only one world. It’s the same for all of us. The lumpy bits bite. SAR, SF, HEMS, CHARTER, we have lost Rotorheads in all these disciplines in bad weather CFIT.

airpolice

4th Aug 2018, 22:28

Air police, the fenestron is 10 feet off the deck. There’s a reason for that....the vis sucks. It’s aviation insanity and there is no justification to fly like this....ever. That’s not moral outrage. It’s common sense.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1920x1200/screenshot_2018_08_04_23_24_33_8bbcbcd8d5b3b36fafe9b055e6b84 71d3fe1d89b.png

Well, I can't see the surface, below the aircraft, as it's behind the wall, by an undetermined distance, but if you can ascertain that it's ten feet, then so be it.

Looks like more than ten feet to me.

diginagain

4th Aug 2018, 22:28

Mightgem, Detmold cab into the ridge......I think 85 or 86.
Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager. Memory fades.
The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.

I am sure there are a few more.

How sure? I was in Detmold from May 79 to April 92, and I think we might have noticed.

ShyTorque

4th Aug 2018, 22:42

DB, Thanks for you reply to my P.M. and I understand where you're coming from. However, we've also lost crews in 100% VMC.

Having worked under "other" rules where the weather limits were written down as "at Captain's discretion", I've occasionally flown (not recently because I now fall under under more stringent rules), in extremely poor weather conditions. Sometimes an IFR recovery was out of the question and a hover taxy in very poor visibility was the only option, other than ditching the whole show in the sea. "Captain's discretion" means exactly that, obviously if you get it wrong you might pay the ultimate price. The crew involved in this instance had a better option, they could have landed on the ground, so presumably were happy enough to carry on with sufficient visual cues.

Is JSP 318 still valid, btw?

Clockwork Mouse

4th Aug 2018, 23:12

“He replied that he had given me the same speech that he gave all his Ambulance drivers on qualification. He saw the helicopter as just another ambulance and he was right.”

“There are no circumstances acceptable EVER to fly in such a manner as to risk the safety of your aircraft or crew.”

Some commenters on this thread could have a useful second career as a civvy traffic warden.

SASless

4th Aug 2018, 23:48

Me thinks I may have encountered such weather on flights made together out of that Sunshine Holiday Capital in the Shetlands as we flogged to and from the Ninian Field in its early days.

In the time of Decca finding home was more by Braille than by Science.

Memory serves me that VMC Minima was lower than IMC.....something about clear of cloud (which Fog ain't it being a surface weather phenomenon and all).

For sure you could not see over the nose of the Helicopter and see anything but gray....requiring you to look down past your elbow to see anything Green.

All by the book of course!

BOBAKAT

5th Aug 2018, 01:03

Nobody was inside the Dolphin. Nobody know why he fly so low in bad weather, nobody know which kind of flight equipment was on board on...
Everybody have to have to be a judge, but only when he will be God

[email protected]

5th Aug 2018, 04:36

Air police, the fenestron is 10 feet off the deck.And the normal hover height for the aircraft is??????? Oh that will be 6 feet. So the fenestron is further away from obstacles than if he was hovering in a confined area or a barracks. Oh, and it's a Fenestron not an exposed TR so what exactly is your point?

I mentioned the terrain earlier - if you have flown there you will know that finding a suitable area to put down is tricky, especially in an aircraft that is limited to firm surfaces - it doesn't like boggy, rocky ground as there is little clearance underneath it.

It’s aviation insanity that really is straight from the Daily Mail........you are so over-egging the pudding it's turning into a souffle.

Shy - DBs mention of JSP318 shows how out of touch he is with military flying.:ok: DB, if your only memories of mil flying are with the AAC in the 80s then you might be surprised to know that things have moved on quite significantly since then.

helicrazi

5th Aug 2018, 04:47

I think we are missing the bigger issue here and watching that video has really troubled me... the cyclist out in that weather, he must be nuts!!!

Then it looks like the dash cam is inside a Nissan Juke. A NISSAN JUKE!!!! What is this world coming to.

cappt

5th Aug 2018, 06:20

You train to fight smart not fockngnstupid. I’ll walk through the pass, see you on the other side, maybe. USMC 84-88.

DOUBLE BOGEY

5th Aug 2018, 06:23

Helicrazi, good points, an Japanese car and a MAMIL. Both out in fog. What were they thinking.

Clockwork Mouse. With 17k in my logbook and not so much as a scratch of paint, HEMS, MIL, POLICE, HOFO I feel very comfortable that my inner “Traffic Warden” has served me well.

SAS I was also in Sunburgh on the S61 as P2 at the tail end of the Decca ERA. No ILS and a ARA /Decca procedure into the bay onto the end of r/w 27. MDH was “waves visible” and DR when we saw the lights. No other options as the wx changed quickly and the poor old girl had no fuel for anywhere else. This was safe because we were over the sea until the end of the r/w. Protected by the black and white storm scope with the dodgy NDB for backup/confirmation. And we have flown that route so many times we could do it in our sleep.

i would take that any day over an unforced error that sees me hover taxing in fog over unknown terrain in circumstances where an ASDA HGV might become an obstacle or the bloody wires loom out of the gloom to tear my helicopter apart.

CRAB I do not need to add any eggs to the pudding. There are hundreds of Rotorheads who have creamed themselves in CFIT. Some of which were doing oh so important tasks even your precious SAR.

I wonder if you would defend a pilot who chooses to fly along a public road at 10 feet in 8/8 VMC?

Bull at a Gate

5th Aug 2018, 06:36

One thing has been achieved by this bit of flying - lots more of us know what the SAS use for their now somewhat less covert operations.

Bravo73

5th Aug 2018, 07:45

Don’t worry. I’m pretty sure that the aircraft will now be a very different colour to how it appeared in the video. And there are plenty of other Dauphins around.

RVDT

5th Aug 2018, 07:52

So it has been established that it is a MIL aircraft?

Which if any part of UK ANO or SERA would apply?

Nothing to see here.

diginagain

5th Aug 2018, 08:38

This was safe because we were over the sea until the end of the r/w.

Remind us how that panned-out for G-WNSB again?

DOUBLE BOGEY

5th Aug 2018, 09:28

Remind us how that panned-out for G-WNSB again?

Diginagain. You need to read the report! And like a Pri*k you miss the point I was making. That’s the basic problem with Pprune. Failure to read the whole post and comprehend the points being made.

Clockwork Mouse

5th Aug 2018, 09:57

There is a basic misconception here about risk in the military. Double Bogey is adamant that the operation of the Dauphin in hover taxiing in fog beside a public road was reckless and indefensible, mainly because it was something he would never do himself, despite his 17k hours of safe flying.
I will concede it was risky, but then so is most military flying, and we can reasonably assume that this aircraft was military operated. We can only assume that the crew and passengers, if there were any, were fully aware of the risks and were comfortable to accept them.
What constitutes acceptable risk in this type of situation? It must include the capability of the equipment, eg the aircraft and its systems, the training, knowledge and experience of the crew, and the nature of the mission. The more important the mission, the greater the risk acceptance.
We do not know anything about these factors in this case. However, if the operators of this aircraft are who most of us think they are, I am confident that their professionalism and access to resources and technology not normally available to the rest of us means that the risk was carefully assessed and accepted as necessary and manageable.
It is a blinkered, black and white, catch-all, traffic warden mentality that leads to some posters expressing righteous outrage at this incident without knowledge of any relevant facts.

Evil Twin

5th Aug 2018, 10:04

At least they are in sight of the ground as opposed to trying to make visual contact after having had to come down through the soup.

These (so I understand) are the people that arrive to prevent loss of life after some scumbag decides to put the general public in the firing line. I am more than happy and give my full support to them and deem any training, or otherwise, that they are required to complete as justified!

diginagain

5th Aug 2018, 10:16

Diginagain. You need to read the report! And like a Pri*k you miss the point I was making. That’s the basic problem with Pprune. Failure to read the whole post and comprehend the points being made.

I've read the report, thanks. As it happens my witness statement is part of the Police Scotland investigation report.
Have you managed to determine how many BAOR-based Army helicopters have been lost due to poor weather yet?

BTW, 'Sooty's' supervisory-chain should have chopped his legs off long before he had a hand in writing-off '321, and techically BATUS is in Canada.

SASless

5th Aug 2018, 11:28

I shall not accuse you of being a Prick....but you do miss the point as well.

I was merely pointing out that even in the Civvie side of helicopter aviation IN THE UK....(and confirmed by your post) we quite happily (as in routinely) operated in exactly the same kind of weather conditions while engaged in Public Transport.

You gloss over the fact that it was not uncommon for there to be a string of aircraft hovering across terrain seeking a flat bit of concrete with some white lettering on it.....and we did that repeatedly as a common practice.

When I taxied up to the wrong Dispersal having become lost ON the airport....to be greeted by a bearded, pipe smoking fellow wearing full British Helicopters garb to include the Bus Driver's Hat.....who informed me I had found the wrong nest but no. problem Tea was available while I waited for the Tractor.

Sorry...but we did operate in some really bad weather....as a practice.

I suggest there is not much difference between what we did....and what is seen in that video.

In the S-58T...we were doing that single pilot unlike the 61 where you had two pilots.....even at Night.

So in conclusion.....I am not bothered one bit by what was seen in the video.

The crew knew the area, there where no wires, the aircraft was off to the side of the roadway, and other than where it was located the same "risk" to the public could have occurred at any Dispersal with a car park or roadway on the other side of the Security Fence.

If that aircraft was a civilian public transport flight (but it appears not to be).....HEMS, Utility Operation, or privately owned....then different rules pertain and I would have objections as I would like to think we have progressed from "the good old days".

Over the years I have learned your Heart is in the right place but sometimes you tend to hold forth a bit loudly.

Think about it.....we done it too.

Should we be too vocal in our concerns about safety when we see others doing the same thing in a careful professional manner.

meleagertoo

5th Aug 2018, 12:24

Some years ago an ex-oppo of mine told me about doing exactly the same thing as this in Mk4 Seakings - specifically hover-taxiing up the Pyg track in order to reach the summit of Snowdon in cloud as a training exercise. Apparently it was not thought particularly exceptional, but then it was the Navy.
I expressed surprise that even the Junglies would do this but he assured me that although hairy at first exposure (with an instructor) it was not all that hazardous as long as you remembered your escape routes at all times and flew slow enough to retain visal reference of the ground. I asked about hikers and he just grinned. Scared the s*** out of a few of those, he replied. I think he added that it prepared him for the conditions he encountered along the Basra Road shortly afterwards.

I wonder how uncommon this really is. Rather like SASless I'm sure many of us have moved aircraft on an airfield in bad vis. This is just an extension of that done off airfield by specifically trained military specialists for a specific type of task that most mil flyers don't go anywhere near. That's the point - specialists. Training for their specialisation. LIke mine clearance divers or HALO jumpers or smashing 20 tons of fast jet into a 600ft moving deck in fog iat 140Kts - or any of the other crazy things some get up to in the military.

Simply because there is a need for it.

SASless

5th Aug 2018, 12:59

Fly in the Aleutian Islands and the part of Alaska that runs out to them....and say you never did this kind of flying!

Or, in the Pacific Northwest....and earn a living flying helicopters.

Or dusty season in Africa....amongst many places in the World.

This is what makes helicopter flying different.

Doing it safely....is the stumbling block.

In the Pacific Northwest and Alaska the exercise is known as "Hover- Mosey"....you hover a bit....mosey along a bit...hover a bit....repeat....till you get to where you can fly.

Prawn2king4

5th Aug 2018, 13:26

You lot have all missed the obvious ..... perfectly safe. He was quite rightly observing the right hand rule.

jimf671

5th Aug 2018, 13:28

No, but I may have trained them in a previous life;)

DB - you do need a bit of a reality check with regard to what was being done here - you have absolutely no idea what task they were on.

HEMS might not be allowed to do this but UKSAR operate under EASA rules, under CAP 999 and they would be allowed to operate like this to save life! However, I'm with Paco and, if you are the only asset, and you have the ability and training to mitigate the risk, then save lives if it is possible.

I, like many SAR pilots, have had to turn down jobs or turn back because the rescue was simply too dangerous but a straightforward hovertaxy in cloud with decent references and an escape route/IF option really isn't that risky.

And a lot less risky with many of the modern types with excellent positioning systems, advanced autopilot functions and deicing providing more and safer options. These have certainly brought changes in SAR and this role will be little different.

heights good

5th Aug 2018, 15:14

I see professionals going about their business. Legally.

Incorrect! Absolute disregard for the rules that govern military flying. Nowhere does it state that flying in fog is legal, REGARDLESS of the reasons. If encountering poor weather, ‘slow down, go down, turn around or land!’ No exceptions!

I have 2,500 military flying hrs of which approx half are operational both in NI and further afield working with similar units. NEVER have we had to or been coerced into doing something similar. The rules are clear.

ShyTorque

5th Aug 2018, 15:35

An ex-colleague of mine received a bravery award for hover taxing in fog up a mountain to rescue a casualty. Having recovered the casualty into the aircraft from the low hover, it was decided the only way to get back down again was to descend on a reciprocal track in reverse (as in tail first, so the pilot could maintain visual reference on the mountain.
It was in the dark, too, btw.

No "hat on, no coffee" interview on that occasion.
It's a fine line to tread, but there you are.

DOUBLE BOGEY

5th Aug 2018, 15:55

Heights Good - Late to the party but thank God for your voice of Common Sense!

DOUBLE BOGEY

5th Aug 2018, 15:57

Shy - Bravery and planned flying.......not a good mix. I prefer a sensible dose of cowardice in my planning.

treadigraph

5th Aug 2018, 16:38

Do these guys have any form of synthetic vision to assist them flying in poor vis apart from NVGs?

DOUBLE BOGEY

5th Aug 2018, 17:24

Treadigraph, the answer you seek is probably a secret!

[email protected]

5th Aug 2018, 18:00

Heights good - what rules have they broken? They will have had an authorised minima for low flying for the training but that goes out of the window if you are caught out by poor weather unexpectedly. They will have appended their auth sheet to reflect they broke the minima but there are plenty of occasions when it is acceptable to exceed your auth - you should know that - as long as you have good reason.

Perfectly legal - just caught out by the conditions - it happens to most mil pilots sometime in their career, 2500 hours should have taught you that. If you operated long enough in NI, you were always going to get caught out - or just never get airborne to do the tasking.

oldbilbo

5th Aug 2018, 18:01

Do these guys have any form of synthetic vision to assist them flying in poor vis apart from NVGs?

Persistent rumour has it that certain Pumas were using both PNGs and RTIR ( far IR spectrum) - with a cadged NightSun searchlight side-mounted with a red filter to act as a pointer - while doing that sort of 'training exercise' down in 'Bandit Country' during the early 70's. Oh, and often as not in icing conditions.....

I rather imagine that the kit has improved just a leetl along the way, to include inter alia a much better 'far IR' spotlight coupled to a helmet mounted sight. '

Oops! Did I just write that.......

treadigraph

5th Aug 2018, 19:05

Treadigraph, the answer you seek is probably a secret!

There's a blue Dauphin hovering outside my window... Neighbours are a bit annoyed!

MightyGem

5th Aug 2018, 20:36

Mightgem, Detmold cab into the ridge......I think 85 or 86.
Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager. Memory fades.
The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.

I am sure there are a few more.

Detmold cab into the ridge......I think 85 or 86.
From Hildersheim, encountered bad weather during night flying. Flew into a hillside. Not really inappropriate weather, just bad luck.

Gazelle into a range post I think Saltau or Sennelager.
Inappropriate low flying rather than weather, I think.

The “Sooty” incident....in good weather.
Not in BAOR or in inappropriate weather.

Gazelle in Battus attempting night casevac.
Pilot became disorientated in marginal conditions at dusk attempting a casevac.

Can't think of any AAC aircraft lost due to flying in weather that was below limits, although I'm sure it was done at times.

comedyjock

5th Aug 2018, 21:09

Cabby

5th Aug 2018, 21:18

From Hildersheim, encountered bad weather during night flying. Flew into a hillside. Not really inappropriate weather, just bad luck.

Inappropriate low flying rather than weather, I think.

Not in BAOR or in inappropriate weather.

Pilot became disorientated in marginal conditions at dusk attempting a casevac.

Can't think of any AAC aircraft lost due to flying in weather that was below limits, although I'm sure it was done at times.

This database lists a number of military crashes. 1991 cab ran out of fuel!
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/dblist.php?AcType=SCOU

DOUBLE BOGEY

5th Aug 2018, 21:43

Mighty gem, you just miss the whole point. Pilots operating recklessly and/or beyond the obvious and documented limits have been creaming themselves and their pax in with tedious regularity.

in this case we have a helicopter, flying at low level in fog along a public road. That is not acceptable under any circumstances and NO ONE can ever be authorised to train in such conditions. If you are ex AAC authorising officer you would know this.

This thread should be a general vilification of a truly poor act of airmanship. Instead we have desire, ego and risky shift all collaborating together to try and convince sensible compliant pilots that such supremely stupid acts are really necessary to keep us safe in our beds. It’s lamentable and in the words of John Cleese, exactly how Hitler started!

Recently we had a SAR machine fly straight into a rock in the open ocean. And yet so many posters claiming that such risks are acceptable in SAR or indeed HEMS. They are not acceptable. The Commander is neither authorised or trained to operate beyond the limits.

several posters also completely misunderstand the rules believing ANYTHING goes if you are saving lives. This is also not true. This rule is applicable during an Emergency Situation relating to the aircraft operation and not the task in hand.

Its actually not that difficult to get right. Fly compliant and if you want to apply your own personal limits then make them greater FFS and give yourself a margin for error.

It sickens and disappoints me that when any attempt is made to suggest compliance or caution on Rotorheads is so often met by the wannabe hero’s pulling on the other end of the rope. If they have truly been there and really done that they would know how dangerous these actions can be and how so much ends up down to luck than skills or judgement.

As a member of the public first, an ex military pilot second and a professional helicopter pilot third, I want an explanation as to why the cream of the British Army is wazzing along a public road in fog. Only by demanding such answers will the truth come out and progress get made. Thankfully on this occasion no lives were lost. Luck, more than any other factor in play whem so low in fog.

SASless

5th Aug 2018, 22:06

DB,

Point of Order, Sir.

The Irish SAR Crash had us wondering how a properly authorized, well equipped, and trained SAR Crew managed to hit that bit of known Rock several hundred feet high.

The Report showed the Crew had a lot of help in accomplishing that feat.

This latest flight took place alongside a Public Road Way....granted in fairly close proximity to the road way.

You are assuming the aircraft crew was in violation of some set of Minima.....but without knowing so.

According to internationally accepted Rules of Internet Debating....he who first invokes "Mr. A. Hitler" loses.

As to the rest....you pretty much are right....Rule One of the Sasless General Rule of All Flight is well known to be simply stated thusly...."Ass, Tin, Ticket...in decreasing priority!".

Getting yourself home safe by either return flight, train, bus, taxi, or thumb....is the very essence of proper airmanship.

tartare

6th Aug 2018, 00:02

Mt Hutt - 1991 - 500D.
Similar viz.
We hover taxi-ed to the side of the car-park and then followed the road down, about the same distance away from the skiers cars descending as our Dauphin friend is.
Then descended in a sideslip down the scree slope - again, probably about 10 feet agl until we broke out of the fog.
Same technique when flying to the wreck of Ansett 703 in a Squirrel - except going up rather than down - absolutely socked in on the day.
The average dashcam has a very wide angle lens - our special forces driving friend may have appeared to be closer than he really was.
As a previous poster said - hover and mosey - nothing to see here.

krypton_john

6th Aug 2018, 02:19

For all we know they were looking for somewhere to set down?

heights good

6th Aug 2018, 03:07

Do these guys have any form of synthetic vision to assist them flying in poor vis apart from NVGs?

No. Just a Mk1 eyball

heights good

6th Aug 2018, 03:16

The regulations for military flying are all in the public domain. A quick search for MAA MRP (2307) gives most of the required information in this case. I'm sure someone somewhere will be having a look at this.

1km, clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. No exceptions.

In addition, week 1 of helicopter flying - “If the weather deteriorates we will go down, slow down, turn around and finally land” there is no hover-taxi until we can clear the inconvenient weather. This is how people have died. The JHC FOB and MAA are crystal clear on the rules, of which DSF have to abide.

There are no new lessons in aviation, just new people learning old lessons....

[email protected]

6th Aug 2018, 04:26

In addition, week 1 of helicopter flying - “If the weather deteriorates we will go down, slow down, turn around and finally land” there is no hover-taxi until we can clear the inconvenient weather. This is how people have died. The JHC FOB and MAA are crystal clear on the rules, of which DSF have to abide.Yes, they went down, slowed down, were constrained by terrain and weather so turning round or landing were not viable and more unsafe than continuing!

DB you are clutching at straws with your arguments, have related several accidents which have no bearing on this video and lowered yourself to name calling - isn't it time you acknowledged that your outrage level doesn't match the 'crime' of which you think this crew are guilty?

And this I want an explanation as to why the cream of the British Army is wazzing along a public road in fog is inaccurate, sensationalist and rather pathetic coming from an ex-military aviator - where do you see wazzing (low level, high speed flight for the uninitiated, often for showboating or personal gain)in that video FFS? - they are carefully hovertaxying!

height's Good - when did you last do the Flying Sups or Flying Auth course? I have done them both in very recent history and these guys have done nothing wrong except got caught out in poor weather.

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 05:54

Crab Sir,. I think the boot is on the other foot. I am not clutching at straws. I have safely tied down on the moral high ground....which is...THOU SHOULD NOT FLY IN FOG CLOSE TO THE SURFACE in open flight. Meanwhile you pull every excuse you can find:

they are training....no this is not allowed
they are saving us from evil.......errr in the Lake District. Maybe terrorist sheep?
they have been caught out......agreed however they are flying over high ground so more of a deliberate act.
they are hero’s and we cannot question them.....no the boys in the back deserve better.
there are no limits when flying in hero jobs.......err yes there are.
pilots can be authorised to do this.......no they can’t.
They are very experienced......come on! We know that to be highly unlikely in today’s budget constraints.

In the beginning, someone told me pilots get born with 2 buckets. One is called EXPERIENCE and of course is empty. The other is called LUCK and is full. The objective is to fill the Experience bucket before you empty the Luck bucket. What is then this thing we call Experience. After 34 years and 17k I conclude thus....Experience is a series of unfortunate events that if you are lucky, you survive and if you are wise, you learn from. As such, an Experienced pilot has learned to avoid situations where the “Unfortunate Events” may occur. Like risking everything taxiing in fog up or down a hillside. And thus, I believe when we witness such events from afar, it is far more likely that the persons involved are still working on their Experience bucket.

Crab I admire your loyalty especially seeing as you were in the Brill Cream brigade and not the Army. However, blind faith has been proven to be flawed. What we see here is not the SF doing there thing but them being transported to do their thing. Like I said, remember the Falklands.

Hughes500

6th Aug 2018, 06:36

I have kept really quiet on this and have often disagreed with DB but he is spot on
For people to say they were caught out by bad weather and then to continue in the pea soup well that strikes me as total incompetence, they should have turned round or been on the ground way before that video was taken.
If that had been MD 600 , chop jock or most others Jesus there would be an outcry ( quite rightly so .)
Before everyone says how good our SF are ( yes they are and I should know ) they are not immune to doing stupid things. The death of 2 Cpl s from heat exhaustion on selection is one example, all the rules were broken and 2 people unnecessarily died.

ShyTorque

6th Aug 2018, 06:43

I think they should be OK as long as they wear hi-viz vests.

heights good

6th Aug 2018, 06:54

height's Good - when did you last do the Flying Sups or Flying Auth course? I have done them both in very recent history and these guys have done nothing wrong except got caught out in poor weather.

That is perfect, you should be VERY familiar with the Lynx crash from 2011 that seen the crew get airborne after disregarding the weather and going flying anyway.... you will recall the tragic ending and how a culture of justification and “getting the job done” culminated in this accident.... seems pretty similar, no?

heights good

6th Aug 2018, 06:57

Ed Winchester

6th Aug 2018, 07:37

Looks like press-on-itis to me.

Not the end of the world and clearly they came out the other side or we would be looking at a pile of wreckage on the side of the hill.

However, given the proliferation of dash cams, phones, social media, and 24 hour news - if you flout with the regulations, especially in a National Park - you are more and more likely to be splashed all over the internet!

I reckon they could have landed on if they had wanted to. When operating IN SUPPORT of these special folk (training or otherwise), it sometimes takes more balls to say ‘No’ than it does to keep pushing the envelope.

Still - it did look like fun :)

SARWannabe

6th Aug 2018, 08:00

What was it about using superior judgement to avoid the need to use superior skill.

The number of professional pilots talking utter tosh here is frankly scary. I can’t talk for the military in this exercise - though I fullly concur with DB.

Without wishing to take the HEMS tangent again, the complete abuse of the idea that you can break the rules to save a life simply cannot be translated into HEMS or you become a dangerous HEMS pilot. The rules are appropriately adapted for HEMS, and lifting into the air to ‘save a life’ bears no resemblance to actions taken in the air to save your own life - especially in the case of weather when one usually has an idea what they are progressing into. If the CAA have read this thread they would be appropriately horrified at some of the suggestions being made. Military bravado bo**ocks from the usual culprits.

p.s. As someone rightly said, wide angle cameras make things look further away, not closer..

XV666

6th Aug 2018, 08:58

There seem to be a lot of circular arguments going on here, with no ability to come to a common ground.

I’m intrigued that there are so many assumptions being made to justify criticisms of the crew; not one of us here have the faintest idea what preceded or followed the short vision of the 365 emerging from the low cloud yet experts are fanging on without any let up, based on assumptions.

How do the detractors know there were any POB other than the crew? The rear door is open and a crewman is checking outside, but is there actually anyone else there; yet mention has been made of the crew carrying SAS pax into danger. There is no vision of what is happening after the vehicle passes, so how do we not know that it was a landing into a safe area to await the cloud lifting? There is no vision ahead of how far the low cloud extends, so how do we know how long the crew had been committed to a safe option to terminate the flight?

DB, your neck of the woods in Mil may have omitted flight in fog but some of us with wings on our sleeves spent years operating in <100 yards vis, below 200ft, day and night. Legally with full knowledge and approval of command and without any synthetic aids. Faffing on about current Civ Reg’s is a red herring, IMO.

At least we didn’t have to contend with those spawns of the devil; dashcams and smartphones/cameras!

Evalu8ter

6th Aug 2018, 09:13

In my time I've hover taxyed sideways up Mt Byron, grovelled through low cloud and mist in Bosnia, flown Hereford - NI at night in a snowstorm, IFR'd a road in Wales as the weather forecast caught us out and the icing level meant I couldn't go up and the terrain too sloped to land on, and invaded Iraq on a night of somewhat less than VMC conditions. Why do I list them? Because I learnt from each one, and the context behind each decision was different. In hindsight, as a young tyro, going up Byron to pick up the CSE show was daft, but "we all did it" and I was with a very experienced QHI and my horizons and capabilities were broadened in doing so. I applied that lesson in Bosnia where, after the Puma crash in Kosovo, I pushed to my limits and ultimately failed to get across a ridge line - I made the decision that the "risk/reward" balance was firmly one way, so we took our pax back. Low level, below limits, in a snowstorm at night I justified as the guys in the back were going to do a critical time-sensitive job, whilst invading Iraq was "the job" but it was a tough night (especially the USMC CH-46 guys…). This reminds me of the Wales occasion; the weather looked OK at the planning phase but changed swiftly in the hills - we slowed down, went down and considered turning around - only for the "back door" to slam shut (as it can very quickly in the hills). We came to the hover and discussed our options. The LL abort was possible, but the terrain around us meant that we would have to fly it very accurately and the thought of being close to big hills in cloud frankly wasn't that appealing - especially in pre-DAFCS days. We couldn't land on due to terrain so, as a crew, we decided to IFR a road to the ridge line in the expectation that the weather would be better the other side. We were at 10ft in a Chinook following a road as several cars came past - doubtless we'd of been on a dash cam nowadays! We reached the ridge line, came down the other side and, as expected, we cleared the conditions. My point; we did everything right in the planning and got genuinely caught out by weather. As a crew we paused, completed a DODAR analysis and came up with a sensible, workable, plan which we executed. I appended the auth sheets accordingly when I got back and we de-briefed it thoroughly. Nothing more was said. The moral? Unless you were on the cab you do not know the thought process, and a non-contextual 10-second clip does not tell the whole story of the conditions in front/ behind the cab. Apart from the pub, there are few obstructions on that route. They may also have been doing it for Op reasons - not every Op makes the news for good reason. SAR Wannabe - the only bo**cks being discussed here are massive ones, which, sometimes, when appropriate, as a military aviator you need to use….At issue here is "appropriate", and without the full context, we're unable to judge that from our armchairs.

[email protected]

6th Aug 2018, 10:56

Evalu8ter and Heli - thank you for bringing us back to reality and dismantling the outrage from those with febrile imaginations about how they would have done it so much better.

Why those who have never done the mil-flying thing keep trying to align it with HEMS is quite beyond me. Trying to make this event into a potential CFIT scenario is equally fatuous.

Heights Good - would you care to elaborate which Lynx crash you are talking about?

SASless

6th Aug 2018, 11:26

I so so wish there was a "Like Post" feature at pprune.

Eval's post is one that deserves such endorsement.

Posts such as his get copied and stored away for future reference!

Heli makes very good points as well.

On the other hand......You do realise that the pilots are not ‘special’ in any way and are regular AAC pilots?

That mindset hits a very low note....as the crew are Military Personnel who put their Lives on the line for the British People....and that Sport makes them very special.

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 11:56

Evalu8tur I too like your post and it’s interesting the perspective you provide. This thread started out as if doing these kind of things sets one apart from the crowd and elevates the pilots to some kind of glorified status. Naturally the discussion polarises.

What I like about your post is the statements that you planned well but got caught out. Your Experience bucket filling each time and luck along with skill saves you. However. This in a valley up a hillside for which there must have been a time when an experienced pilot would turn back and not continue climbing into the weather. There are neither rules or demands that permit or oblige the crew to continue climbing into fog. This is the only salient point.

As a community of Rotorheads there has to be some collective agreement that the image portrayed in this flight, albeit a snapshot in time, speaks volumes if you understand the terrain, their training, the rules they should follow and the scope of the authorisation process.

To suggest that a military Commander would readily sanction and if required authorise flight in such conditions is simply naive.

To to this day I operate EMS and very occasionally the weather turns ****e. It’s hard to turn down a task. It hurts inside when we have too and we soul search for days afterwards. However, I am in a supervisory role and for my line pilots, it’s really important that I have the courage to say no when the conditions are likely to be below limits even when I know, my skill sets can get me over the water, into a bay and deliver the patient. And it takes courage to say no especially when the prognosis for the patient could be improved using the helicopter.

Ultimately, if that Dauphin has speared in this thread would dance to a different tune and I have no doubts about that. However, prevention is better than treatment and caution beats enthusiasm every time.

I am am not going to criticise the crew as at some time, as you so eloquently describe, many of us have faced similar conditions. But I will always criticise people who think flight in such conditions is acceptable. It’s not. It’s dangerous for both the cab contents and third parties. If you think otherwise God help you or at least I hope your luck bucket is not yet empty.

SARWannabe

6th Aug 2018, 12:06

Hear Hear DB

SASless

6th Aug 2018, 12:26

Luck always trumps Skill and often substitutes for the lack of Skill.

DB is right.....HEMS Go-No Go Decisions are not based upon the Patient's Condition, Prognosis, or Needs, Flight County, or Revenue generated......it is a simple (in theory) decision based upon the Weather and other Aviation related factors.....ONLY.

If the weather and related factors are within the published minima and crew capability....one departs.

If not...one does not depart.

In the USA...we strive to free the Pilot of the Patient Information as much as possible in an attempt to lessen the psychological pressure one might feel otherwise.

The hard part of the decision making process is when the weather is marginal and there appears to be no clear cut, easily defined set of factors that affords that straight forward easy decision...be it go or not to go.

If one launches in marginal weather over bad terrain or in the dark of night....or all of the above....and you guessed it wrong then you are in trouble.

Guess it right and everything goes well....you are the Base Hero for a while until someone else takes the honor.

The hardest word for an EMS Pilot to vocalize is....."NO!".

It should not be at all.....as there are occasions that is exactly the right response to a request for a flight.

hihover

6th Aug 2018, 13:19

If we can cut through all the willy waving and heroic, life-saving adventures from previous lives, I think we can agree that we all have some common thoughts...

1. Not a good idea to continue in weather like that, regardless of how we got there, it might be time to land or recover on instruments
2. It is absurd that any crew would have chosen or would have been sent to train in poor weather by choosing a fog-bound hill in Cumbria to negotiate
3. HEMS, Mil, Police, SAR, SF etc have a tough role, often faced with tough decisions to make...unless you were in the cockpit, at this point in time you have no cause to forecast what was going on when the decision to continue was made, therefore, it could be considered wise to stop spouting about the organisation, the crew quality, airmanship, the proximity of the ground or road, the choices he should have made etc etc.
4. Questions will be asked. It will not be swept under any carpet, however, the results may not be public domain, and the flight may well have been justified in that set of circumstances.
5. Whatever we do in this modern digital world is likely to be recorded, filmed, posted, criticised, published, criticised, dissected, and criticised by anyone and everyone, whether they are informed or not.

I'd like to think that we professionals can rise above criticising until we know. Then its open season.

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 13:43

HiHover, you were my QHI for my Command Course......I think. So maybe you take some of the blame for instilling in me a firm sense of caution and thus me becoming a Pprune pain in everyone’s ass!

like I said earlier, I will not criticise the crew.

MOSTAFA

6th Aug 2018, 14:08

Spot on mate��

212man

6th Aug 2018, 14:22

I hadn't realised there were so many Ppruners living in Tunbridge Wells :E

drugsdontwork

6th Aug 2018, 14:28

Crab.....I doubt very much that flying through Cumbria constitutes a viable military response. Even if it did.......never risk the cab and crew. I too have served my time, mil, HEMS ETC. There are rules....even in the military....that expressly prevent such activity and you know that Crab! But hey...let’s all wave our Willy’s about.

Painful as it is to agree with Crab..but having flown SAR in the lakes plenty that pass is well known and you are not exposed for long going over the top. Would you let someone die rather than hover taxi over there? No of course not (subject to regs and common sense). Do I want these chaps to train realistically so they can take out the bad guys before they melt Sellafield? Hell yes.

Bravo73

6th Aug 2018, 14:34

like I said earlier, I will not criticise the crew.

Part of your very first post in this thread:

a truly **** bit of airmanship

Hmmm.

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 14:58

Bravo73 good spot and I was wrong to have said that.

Drugsdontwork......unfortunately in the HEMS world the answer has to be YES, We have basic rules for non life threatening stuff (AA) and alleviation’s from some rules when life is in danger (HEMS). For example for HEMS with 1 pilot the daylight minima en-route is 400ft ceiling and 2,000m visibility / 300ft and 3,000m. The rules clearly state thou shalt go back to base if lower weather is encountered.

Its not nice going home but I know it’s the safer option for the crew and my licence is not at risk and the insurance will pay out if something bad happens.

As brutal as this may sound, the best policy is not to care too much about the welfare of the patient unless you have safely and compliantly arrived. Care more for you and your crew.

I don’t do SAR but I find it very hard to believe that flight in mountains in fog is authorised but maybe I am wrong.

Clockwork Mouse

6th Aug 2018, 15:29

This was not a SAR or HEMS Sortie. Bearing in mind who was probably operating the aircraft and how they are required to operate to achieve surprise, perhaps this was an intentional, authorised adverse weather training flight. Did the pilots who flew the SF around South Georgia and Pebble Island not train in adverse weather conditions?

[email protected]

6th Aug 2018, 15:39

I don’t do SAR but I find it very hard to believe that flight in mountains in fog is authorised but maybe I am wrong.I showed you the statement from CAP 999.

Still banging on about HEMS - it isn't relevant!

No-one has suggested they were authorised to hover taxy in cloud - such an auth doesn't exist in JHC.

All the ideas about turning round or landing are good -BUT what if you can't?

If you have been caught out by a local deterioration in weather that wasn't forecast, don't have the fuel to divert (and there isn't any for miles up there anyway), the weather (and again fuel) preclude a pullup to IFR, you cant' land because the terrain is unsuitable, there may be some operational pressures to contend with and many other considerations that can't be discussed here - what do you do?

The crew will have added to their experience - as evalu8ter points out, most of us have had such situations that make us better and wiser - but have they displayed 'truly **** airmanship'?

DB-your idea of the moral high ground is very bizarre

they are training....no this is not allowed
they are saving us from evil.......errr in the Lake District. Maybe terrorist sheep?
they have been caught out......agreed however they are flying over high ground so more of a deliberate act.
they are hero’s and we cannot question them.....no the boys in the back deserve better.
there are no limits when flying in hero jobs.......err yes there are.
pilots can be authorised to do this.......no they can’t.
They are very experienced......come on! We know that to be highly unlikely in today’s budget constraints. no-one has said anything like what you have written here.

You still seem to be determined to hang, draw and quarter this crew when you still don't know their composition, task or circumstances, you only criticise from your HEMS perspective - if this was a HEMS aircraft I would completely agree with you but it isn't and I don't.

If you don't think there may be situations where hovertaxying in cloud is EVER an acceptable risk then it explains why you aren't still in the military or have ever done SAR.

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 17:24

Crab I don’t think it is ever acceptable to hover in cloud but it might surprise you to know I have done it and for all the wrong reasons and motivations. You obviously can’t read because 3 times now I have said I don’t particularly criticise the crew. It’s stil really **** airmanship to continue up a hill into fog. However maybe this crew were noe experienced enough to learn that yet......or maybe they follow the Crab rules....ie none until there’s a smoking heap.

BTW if you suddenly find you cant turn around you have already gone too far. It happens and you learn from it. In this case they end terrorising road users in fog. I am sure they will face some Qs as to how exactly they ended up in that position. If not the Army has changed and not for the better.

How could I criticise ? I have done it myself. But unlike you I recognise and believe it to be a singularly stupid thing to do. And to be honest, SAR and HEMS are the same thing. Rapid deployment to persons in trouble. If you choose to hang it all out there to get the job done we are neither allowed or motivated to do that. I think in UK HEMS there has only been one loss and that was wires 1km from base. I could be wrong but I am getting older. How many SAR machines have been lost pushing the limits?

I say again, the lumpy bits don’t care if your HEMS, SAR, SF or joe public. The results are the same.

SASless

6th Aug 2018, 17:45

DB.....Question!

When you state "Hover in Cloud".....do you actually mean hover in Fog (a ground based weather phenomenon)?

When you specify "Cloud" a non-ground based weather phenomenon I have to wonder how one does that out of sight of the ground?

I think we all know what you meant....but can you confirm for us this is the case.

Jetscream 32

6th Aug 2018, 17:51

nigelh

6th Aug 2018, 17:54

Am i the only one who cant believe you are still talking about this non event ????? DB is set in his ways and will never change so just leave him alone . We dont know the facts behind this flight , and never will , quite correctly . End of .....

DeltaNg

6th Aug 2018, 18:07

Jetscream32 - Are you suggesting that aircraft can do a perfect vertical climb at zero groundspeed on autopilot at the push of a button?

oldbilbo

6th Aug 2018, 18:36

The tale is told of a young and inexperienced Canberra crew, early 70s, running the MATO Low Level Route/Section 4 and heading out across the lower Firth of Clyde towards MoK, in a rapidly lowering cloudbase. Instructed NOT to climb up into the Prestwick TMA or they'd be hanged, drawn and quartered, they continued ever lower, with the nav singing out he could "still make out the wave tops, but go a bit lower...." A minute or three into this scenario, a cluster of small white things whipped past the starboard wingtip. There followed one of those 'Wha....?' moments, which passed. As did the rest of the sortie, with an uneventful landing at Kinloss, then a Nimrod base. It seemed odd to be told by Local to turn off the runway, stop, and shut down - and odder still when one of those green Austin Maxis came haring down the taxiway, complete with little flag. A Very Senior Wheel was driving, and he curtly ordered the two heroes into the back, then whooshed them off to the Ops Block, to a Reserved parking slot. There they sheepishly followed the Air Commode through to his plush office, where he sat magisterially, staring at them. An icy silence.....

"Were you two anywhere near Ailsa Craig, in the lower Clyde, at low level about an hour ago?"

"Er, probably.... er, yessir."

The VSW waved a piece of paper at them. "This is a signal from MoD London, from MoD ( Navy) actually, requiring the identification of whoever it was. And we've now done that, I believe."

"Congratulations. You're the first aircrew ever to have an AIRMISS filed against them - by the Captain of a Polaris submarine!"

The 'cluster of small white things', it was then realised, were the naval uniform caps of the sub's bridge team.....

helonorth

6th Aug 2018, 18:55

No, but I may have trained them in a previous life;)

This is now starting to make sense.

[email protected]

6th Aug 2018, 19:45

DB - you say you don't criticise then do so again in the next sentence.

You say you have done this yourself and learned from it but don't allow this crew the freedom to do the same thing.

HEMS is ambulance driving - SAR is often very boring searching but also plenty of flying in atrocious weather over inhospitable terrain to save life, they are not the same other than the fact you end up with poorly people in the back of the aircraft on the way to hospital.

If my rules were as you say (and helonorth seems to imply) not only would I have creamed in a long time ago but anyone I have taught or examined (especially in the SAR role) would have done the same - ergo it is another 'fake news' statement in your continued crusade.

We (RAFSAR) have lost a few over the many years of service but none fatal and none to do with CFIT or pushing on in bad weather - the Irish CG (which I assume you were referring to) is a far more complex accident than simply bad weather - and at no point were they pushing any of their limits - so, again, totally irrelevant.

BTW if you suddenly find you cant turn around you have already gone too far. no sh*t sherlock - but you haven't answered what you would do if you found yourself in exactly that situation...............

You still don't get it - they didn't plan to go into fog, they didn't go into it deliberately and once they were in it they had to get out safely - which they did!

MightyGem

6th Aug 2018, 19:53

That is perfect, you should be VERY familiar with the Lynx crash from 2011 that seen the crew get airborne after disregarding the weather and going flying anyway.... you will recall the tragic ending and how a culture of justification and “getting the job done” culminated in this accident.... seems pretty similar, no?
Which Lynx "crash" was that?? The only Lynx accident in 2011 that I'm aware of is the one that took off from Gutersloh and an engine exploded.

airpolice

6th Aug 2018, 20:37

Some of us also know that, that particular cab could of also - binned it at any point and pulled sufficient power - engaged the autopilot and popped out VMC on top in the sunshine a few seconds later - by my reckoning they had sufficient options up their sleeve and if at any stage the loady / DG in the back had called that he was not visual then it would of been a swift left arm movement from the rh seat - followed by the selection of the AP..... Love it when everyone bangs on about graciousness and finger-wagging..... it's not an incident - therefore it's just experience - trouble is - published on sm it suddenly becomes a mass opinion piece....

Somewhere in that load of bollocks, there just might be some kind of explanation about freezing level and controlled airspace above them, and exactly how the poster knows how many seconds, at whatever rate of climb that aircraft could manage, with whatever load it had... in order to break out on top, in sunshine.

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 20:44

Al-bert

6th Aug 2018, 21:26

Crab I get it.............I just don’t like it!

Without getting me knob out and waving it about.... I have done my fair share of difficult tasks, in the dark, alone (apart from my 2 paramedics), in an unstabilised machine over inhospitable terrain, with no surface lighting trying to help injured people. Not once but thousands of times. And then JAR-OPS came and along with it some new rules. AFCS, sensible limits and more equipment and some aviation training for the medics. After so much risk taken, so much luck expended, it took me a few years to realise the true value of regulation and sensible rule making.

Crab you are right, we have not done the same job. You had a state of the art helicopter (not a clapped out old 355), you had a stick buddy trained and capable of supporting you (not a couple of wide eyed passengers). You had a complex tasking and tracking centre (not a NATS box), you had a winch and winchman, (I had to balance my skid toes on the rocks to let the medics out and the casualty in), hell I bet you even had a real NAVAID (not a Trimble Transpack riveted to the glare shield that vibrated like a whores handbag).

Your trouble is you really believe you are the one, the only one who has “Been there and done that” And my trouble is, given the utter ****e you often spout, I can’t believe you have ever been there at all.

I have learned, thankfully not the hard way, that rules and limits are my friend. They exist to guide me on my way. And many years ago I recognised that my real job, that of a professional aviator, is to follow them to the best of my knowledge and ability. I don’t alway get this bit right......but deep inside I really want too. I am risk averse. I am careful. I am mindful that my passengers are victims of my decisions and skills.

You on on the other hand preach heresy to me. I will never get you or understand where you are coming from.

So I ask you the very simply question. Would you have ended up on that dash cam or would you have turned back before this option vanished. What really does the Crab think and believe?
Double Bogey - I'm sensing that maybe you don't like Crab? I've never met Crab, though I know that he exists, since I retired just (I think) before he joined the RAFSAR force, or Wing as I prefer to remember it, but I share his belief that you just don't get it!
During the '70's I flew SH Wessex in Germany (18Sqn) then (72 Sqn) in NI before spending 22 years on 22, 202, and 78 Sqn's flying SAR Wessex and Sea Kings. I was a Flight Commander for 4 years (hence chief authoriser - but all our Captains were self authorising) in Scotland and again Flt Cdr in Wales and Falklands at various times as a Spec Aircrew pilot. We hover taxied in cloud on occasions, sometimes up mountains, sometimes at night too. It's what we did, just like our predecessors on the bloody Whirlind, (which was always safe single engine as they used to boast! That btw was a joke). I know of no aircraft loss due to this practice and the spirit and airmanship that achieved this is what made RAFSAR the best SAR outfit in the world at the time. Only the RN would disagree with that, but they were only amateurs! :E

So DB, get over it and move on.

helonorth

6th Aug 2018, 21:35

"We're in the soup, lads."

Hmmm...let's see here: shall we go to instruments, climb to a safe altitude and file or get some vectors? No, the controlled airspace!

Or, how's about landing? No, could damage the aircraft on all the rocks!

I think we should we fly at 20' down this here road in the mountains until things improve!

Yeah, I vote for that! We're a highly trained, tough as nails, SAR crew!

Nige321

6th Aug 2018, 21:41

I wish I'd never posted this now... :{

Al-bert

6th Aug 2018, 21:43

I wish I'd never posted this now... :{

I bet Crab does too! :ok:

DOUBLE BOGEY

6th Aug 2018, 22:40

Al-Bert, this thread is not about the merits and achievements of RAFSAR! Which BTW I have due respect for.

its a debate on the perceived risks associated with hover taxiing in fog along a public road. If you think this is perfectly acceptable that’s great but I am of the opposite opinion. However, I am wasting my time competing with the great SAR gods who think swallowing risk whole makes you all special. I will be honest with you though. I would rather fly with a seasoned HEMS pilot any day than share a cockpit with a RAFSAR pilot and their unique lack of risk awareness and to be frank, arrogance. I have experienced several RAFSAR pilots at very close quarters and to be honest, you guys don’t travel well. CRM, paradoxically, almost absent when you don a civvy flight suit. You need to learn some humility. That’s me being restrained.

SASless

6th Aug 2018, 23:38

Alright Gurls....put down the Handbags.....enough of this SAR/HEMS chit chat.

I will see your RAFSAR and UK HEMS and raise you to a simple ol' wool shirted, blue jeaned, Wellie wearing Alaska Bush Pilot when it comes to this hovering in fog thing.....yer all a bunch of light weights.

Up in the Bush...we are the crew....ground, air, met, fueler, rampy, and general dogs body....oh...and authorizing wallah to boot.

Unlike the RN we do not dress in Girlie Kit and prance around like dear old Dad!

minigundiplomat

7th Aug 2018, 03:40

Just a few musings:

None of us know what was happening on that aircraft from a video clip; most of you are guessing to support a particular point of view. How do we know the weather hadn't closed in suddenly and they were trying to escape back down the hill?
Who or what the passengers were/are is irrelevant; mountainsides don't differentiate.
Do military units need to train for bad weather? Yes. To that extent? Possibly, possibly not - we aren't the crew, we don't know what they were doing or what they auth'd.
Should crews train/operate beyond their capabilities? No
A lot of speculation, plenty of opinions and an absence of hard facts. I am sure whoever is responsible for the aircraft in question has seen the video and discussed it with the crew - and taken any action they deem necessary.

Feel free to knock chunks out of each other, measure d1cks or waste heartbeats if that's your particular bent.

Edit: One of the few known facts is it wasn't SAR/HEMS so can those two groups of otherwise professional individuals stop with what they would have done, and who's better now?

heights good

7th Aug 2018, 06:02

Which Lynx "crash" was that?? The only Lynx accident in 2011 that I'm aware of is the one that took off from Gutersloh and an engine exploded.

Oops, 2004!

[email protected]

7th Aug 2018, 06:16

DB - that last post of yours was wholly unworthy and better suited to a playground than a professional forum - you have no other argument other than the fact that you don't like it.

Don't start bashing other professionals on here when you have nothing but your bitterness to support your claims.

misterbonkers

7th Aug 2018, 06:16

DB - they are NOT hover taxiing along a road, they are hover taxiing at the side of the road as it's the line feature throughout that piece of terrain. You seem to keep typing thing that are a twist on events or contradictory and to be quite frank it's tiresome.

Crab and yourself clearly don't like each other and are both highly experienced and in guessing you both were taught by Aunt Betty albeit with different coloured pyjamas.

Due to the nature of this airframe featured we'll never know fully what happened but one day I'm sure the pilot will end up working with us in industry and we may discover more. Who knows; they may have learnt something from it.

Too many people have crashed and died by descending low lever in shyt weather and kept doing 100kts plus. Yes you should turn around ideally, or land and wait, but humans can be stubborn and want to keep going forward. This video demonstrates a sensible option of going LOW and SLOW. Who knows; it might even sit in the back of other pilots minds know; either don't be there in the first place or go low and slow along a line feature.

[email protected]

7th Aug 2018, 06:19

MisterBonkers, I did have some respect for DB's experience and knowledge but his repeated attacks on a crew he doesn't know anything about and his last unwarranted swipe at RAFSAR - btw he has NEVER done any SAR - mark him down as one step up from a troll on this forum.

Al-bert

7th Aug 2018, 07:02

ShyTorque

7th Aug 2018, 07:42

DB, now stop worrying!

We all have our own personal concerns and perception of risk. Albeit that "discretion is the greatest part of valour", the ones I really worry about are those who take off in conditions they have never had the opportunity to train for (in my experience these are civilian, more often than not). Maybe next time, in a similar situation, this crew might do things differently, or not. If it wasn't an "Op" it would probably be classed as training. Either way, it's not really a public concern.

After all, military ops are risky by their very nature. Even if we don't allow our chaps to take risks, the other side always will - and will win.

I have flown in similar conditions of very poor visibilty, as a military pilot. I vividly recall an occasion when I had to ask my crewman if the road was clear before we crossed it and we then had to hover taxy through someone's back garden, much to the surprise of a lady bringing in her washing. I won't go into the circumstances, but it was seen as a matter of great importance that we reached our destination. Would I do it again? Not as a corporate pilot - but thankfully these days I do have the option of operating under IFR with a decent fuel endurance - back then we didn't.

DOUBLE BOGEY

7th Aug 2018, 08:38

Crab I have not attacked the crew.

Me and you are boring everyone now because as usual you turn everything into a willy ŵaving contest instead of looking at the subject matter.

Answer the question, would you have continued from reasonable VMC, up a hill, into fog, in the weedisphere, whereby your survival and that of your pax now depends on a line feature, road, along which members of the public are driving and riding?

My position is there are no circumstances, SAR, HEMS, SF, CHARTER where I would consider this to be acceptable. That’s what this is about.

Now what would you do and why?

Now no no more from me as I just end up letting myself down.

NumptyAussie

7th Aug 2018, 08:51

Does anybody have any popcorn? I finished mine & I don't want to miss the next installment. 😎

[email protected]

7th Aug 2018, 09:09

Now no no more from me as I just end up letting myself down. Good because that is exactly what you have done.

There was no willy waving here, except in your imagination.

DeltaNg

7th Aug 2018, 09:52

It's worth pointing out that UK HEMS does not carry an exemption from the 500' rule, which can result in prosecution & loss of licence.

XV666

7th Aug 2018, 09:57

Crab I have not attacked the crew.

Unfortunately you have: both directly and indirectly.

Answer the question, would you have continued from reasonable VMC, up a hill, into fog, in the weedisphere, whereby your survival and that of your pax now depends on a line feature, road, along which members of the public are driving and riding?

Again you are basing your nonsensical attack on crab@ on assumptions.
What and how far do you know the 365 had transited from VMC? The nine seconds of video with the 365 show it travelling no more than 200 metres, probably 150, in a nose up attitude commensurate with coming to a hover. All with the cabin door open and a check being given from the back: maybe looking for a landing?
How far do you know the 365 continued after it left the video shot?
How do you know that there were pax on board?

My position is there are no circumstances, SAR, HEMS, SF, CHARTER where I would consider this to be acceptable. That’s what this is about.

It was none of the above, it was a Mil flight. What you do in other circumstances is cute but not relevant to your insistence on Being Right, Regardless. That’s what this is about.

As I posted before, many of us have done Mil operations in severely reduced vis, low level, Mk 1 eyeballs, day/night with full command approval. Just because your experience didn’t include such stuff is no reason to carry on about HEMS, Charter, SAR et al. All of which I’ve also done, to different rules, around the globe.

DOUBLE BOGEY

7th Aug 2018, 11:11

[/QUOTE] As I posted before, many of us have done Mil operations in severely reduced vis, low level, Mk 1 eyeballs, day/night with full command approval. Just because your experience didn’t include such stuff is no reason to carry on about HEMS, Charter, SAR et al. All of which I’ve also done, to different rules, around the globe.
[/QUOTE]

Were you in a war? Or just swanning about UK?

I give up! Too many hero’s on one thread.

SASless

7th Aug 2018, 11:22

DB,

Thank You for finally putting an end to this bickering (which assumes Crab and a few others will go along with that kind offer....Me included).

I look forward to more interesting discussions that do not devolve into a slanging match between folks with a lot of experience in different fields of expertise having different views on the same matter.

Can we all move on to something else....please?

Bell_ringer

7th Aug 2018, 11:35

Can we all move on to something else....please?

So who loves a Robbie? :}

DOUBLE BOGEY

7th Aug 2018, 11:47

Hi SAS I agree and apologise if I upset you by losing the plot.

SASless

7th Aug 2018, 11:58

More bored than upset....as I know you from Years of reading your posts and know you have a lot of experience and knowledge but sometimes, as a lot of us do, sometimes you get wrapped up into chasing that Rabbit like a Greyhound at a Track.

You, and I include myself, are not by yourself in that trait.

That is what makes for good argument here at Rotorheads.

We just have to be careful how we bark while chasing that Rabbit.

Now as to Robbies......they are evil wee things sent to torment those who know what Helicopters are.....and are not.

Those that know Robbies but not helicopters cannot see the difference!

DOUBLE BOGEY

7th Aug 2018, 12:14

Thanks SAS for your candour and understanding......I will get my coat.:{

DOUBLE BOGEY

7th Aug 2018, 12:25

One more point...on reflection, if I was lying in a snotty heap on a fogbound hill and Crab or Albert hover taxed up to save my worthless ass.....I have to concur....I would be grateful!

i apologise if I was Barking too hard chasing SASs rabbit, to Crab, Albert and others. .......until the next time!

DB

Al-bert

7th Aug 2018, 12:30

All Robbies are helicopters but (thankfully) all helicopters are not Robbies!

SASless

7th Aug 2018, 12:42

I have seen all sorts of SAR Helicopters....even Jet Rangers but I have never seen a SAR Robbie!

tescoapp

7th Aug 2018, 12:45

To be honest it's not the daftest thing I have seen "them" do while training.

I

PlasticCabDriver

7th Aug 2018, 16:10

Perhaps being up there in those conditions was the entire point of the exercise?

c/s in contact, casualties taken, about to be overrun, need extraction NOW.

I wouldn't want it to be to be the first time I had done it when I had to do it for real, and I'm sure the chaps on the ground wouldn’t either.

helonorth

7th Aug 2018, 18:01

ralphmalph

7th Aug 2018, 19:31

Wow.

@crab. You were very confident in you response to the comment about it not being an inexperienced crew? I suggest that as both of them finished Lynx CTT after you left 671 then you are guessing. Willy waving maybe?

I know both front seat guys. In varying contexts from time being a co-Pilot to one and to me being a SQHI for the other.

This isn’t SAR or HEMS any comparison is rubbish.

Yes. We all got caught out in weather, sometimes with little room to manoeuvre. Now we have dashcams.

@Crab : “they will have reported low flying on landing” great assumption. I wouldn’t have reported doing that, I would have hoped nobody would have seen or taken a picture.

I remember flying towards the Mull of Kintyre as a pilot @100’ over the Irish Sea thinking “there is a F@&k off hill at 19.2NM “ and dying to climb....not nice. Someone , somehow flew into it...trained and geared up for the job. Would they have been better at medium level?

I remember being gathered in Afghanistan at 0300 to discuss the relief of a PB under contact where out of 24 guys, in ten mins 16 were wounded with Taliban coming over the walls on the radio. The mission to launch and help was cancelled due to low visibility, they had to fight it out till the weather cleared. Awful hearing the updates...that’s reality. Flying around S Armagh postage stamp in low vis ain’t the same.

Yes, many of us have done the same. I took 4 Lynx under wires because the cloud was on top of the towers (my mistake with weather) luckily......nobody filmed me, or I would need to answer to the rule book like anyone else!

ralphmalph

7th Aug 2018, 19:37

Double Bogey - I'm sensing that maybe you don't like Crab? I've never met Crab, though I know that he exists, since I retired just (I think) before he joined the RAFSAR force, or Wing as I prefer to remember it, but I share his belief that you just don't get it!
During the '70's I flew SH Wessex in Germany (18Sqn) then (72 Sqn) in NI before spending 22 years on 22, 202, and 78 Sqn's flying SAR Wessex and Sea Kings. I was a Flight Commander for 4 years (hence chief authoriser - but all our Captains were self authorising) in Scotland and again Flt Cdr in Wales and Falklands at various times as a Spec Aircrew pilot. We hover taxied in cloud on occasions, sometimes up mountains, sometimes at night too. It's what we did, just like our predecessors on the bloody Whirlind, (which was always safe single engine as they used to boast! That btw was a joke). I know of no aircraft loss due to this practice and the spirit and airmanship that achieved this is what made RAFSAR the best SAR outfit in the world at the time. Only the RN would disagree with that, but they were only amateurs! :E

So DB, get over it and move on.

Al Bert,

My father was a crewman during your time on the SARF, he was awarded a Royal Human Society testimonial on vellum for one night...shouldn’t have been just for him but all the crew. I grew up around RAF SAR, knowing about the “Jocks Box” and all the illustrious history. In this thread, this is not the point. It wasn’t SAR or HEMS, and I’ll be corrected if it wasn’t anything more than a task to move people.

Best regards

Ralph

sycamore

7th Aug 2018, 19:42

PCD,there are plenty of military `ranges` across the country to practice in/on/over/in rain/hail/snow/fog/smoke,day/night......

ShyTorque

7th Aug 2018, 19:46

Yes, many of us have done the same. I took 4 Lynx under wires because the cloud was on top of the towers (my mistake with weather) luckily......nobody filmed me, or I would need to answer to the rule book like anyone else!

The RAF SH rule book allowed flight under wires; we taught it to OCU students. We were encouraged to practice it routinely on SCT.

ralphmalph

7th Aug 2018, 19:49

To be fair...those that knew and worked with the great Flt Lt John Prince can testify to his skills!

Rescue: Budding Rose

Gramps Challice “if we come any lower we will hit the sponson”

JP “Yep, we will be fine”

Gramps “so if you accept that we might damage the aircraft that’s fine”

ON TV!!!!!

ralphmalph

7th Aug 2018, 19:52

The RAF SH rule book allowed flight under wires; we taught it to OCU students. We were encouraged to practice it routinely on SCT.

Absolutly Shy...I hadn’t auth’ed for it after a trip around Scotland. Not enough fuel for anything else, other than a formation shut down.

[email protected]

7th Aug 2018, 19:56

@crab. You were very confident in you response to the comment about it not being an inexperienced crew? I suggest that as both of them finished Lynx CTT after you left 671 then you are guessing. Willy waving maybe?Shows how little you know then!

If you do know those involved, you will know they will both have done exactly the right thing on return - perhaps you know even less about their unit than you do about me.

they will have reported low flying on landing” great assumption. I wouldn’t have reported doing that, I would have hoped nobody would have seen or taken a picture.
a very professional comment from an ex-SQHI..............

The RAF SH rule book allowed flight under wires; we taught it to OCU students. We were encouraged to practice it routinely on SCT.and we taught it on Lynx CTT day and night too.......

This isn’t SAR or HEMS any comparison is rubbish.you got that bit right - try telling DB

Anyone else want to have a go since this thread keeps turning into open season on crab@? All I have done is defend the crew.

ralphmalph

7th Aug 2018, 20:05

Can I take it you know what has happened? Or is it your MO to speak and be checked? It’s like #pprunefactcheck

You are 100,000,001 million times right that as a SQHI someone may not admit it happened. For me (and I was known to be an enthusiast of the rules) I didn’t go there...in teaching or by example. Never would I, or will I do that.

ralphmalph

7th Aug 2018, 20:10

it’s not a bashing. We have met...a few times.

My View is that the military will decide the most appropriate actions..we will see

DOUBLE BOGEY

7th Aug 2018, 20:25

Didn’t we all get taught to go under the wires???.....but for tactical reasons as I remember.

SASless

7th Aug 2018, 20:27

Is there a particular way a Stranger can properly identify a SAR God....is there a funny handshake, a manner of dress, reserved parking place at ASDA, brass name plate on the back of a Recliner in the Crew Room or something?

[email protected]

7th Aug 2018, 20:48

Probably all of those and more Sas - (the officer J Prince seemed to regard himself as one) I have worked with some top individuals in SAR but none of them regarded themselves as SAR Gods - just blokes and girls who got the job done, often in nasty situations and I count myself fortunate to have served alongside them and perhaps imparted some additional knowledge and skills on the way.

Ralphmalph, I know enough to defend them but nothing is for the public domain - believe me or not, that is up to you.

cyclic

7th Aug 2018, 21:28

I’ve set aside 2 hours tomorrow to sack all my fellow ex-SAR crews as I think DB has a point. Bunch of cowboys.

DOUBLE BOGEY

8th Aug 2018, 17:57

I leave the thread and it all goes quiet?

SASless

8th Aug 2018, 19:08

Usually, when you enter a Room that happens!

jimf671

8th Aug 2018, 19:25

I’ve set aside 2 hours tomorrow to sack all my fellow ex-SAR crews as I think DB has a point. Bunch of cowboys.

OMFG, some of us are still on the SAR thing. :ugh:

SilsoeSid

9th Aug 2018, 12:15

Did anyone else hear, @24 seconds, the lad in the back say, "I've just seen a piece fall off it" ... just after the Dad says "deary me" ?
:ooh:
https://tinyurl.com/yarfovo8

helicrazi

9th Aug 2018, 13:32

Did anyone else hear, @24 seconds, the lad in the back say, "I've just seen a piece fall off it" ... just after the Dad says "deary me" ?
:ooh:
https://tinyurl.com/yarfovo8

How do you it was his Dad?

RVDT

9th Aug 2018, 15:03

It's actually the video for the "Dad Joke"

Why did the helicopter fly into the fog?

(Drum roll)

It was doing a mist approach"

(Ta da)

Yuk yuk yuk yuk - I crack myself up - yuk yuk yuk ..........................

SASless

9th Aug 2018, 15:09

:ok::D:D

Very well played, Sir!

212man

9th Aug 2018, 17:47

Did anyone else hear, @24 seconds, the lad in the back say, "I've just seen a piece fall off it" ... just after the Dad says "deary me" ?
:ooh:
https://tinyurl.com/yarfovo8
Yes I did, clearly

DOUBLE BOGEY

9th Aug 2018, 17:52

The plot thickens......

Thomas coupling

9th Aug 2018, 19:30

:ugh::rolleyes:

Carbon Bootprint

9th Aug 2018, 23:45

Did anyone else hear, @24 seconds, the lad in the back say, "I've just seen a piece fall off it" ...

Insertion complete, mission accomplished? :E

helonorth

10th Aug 2018, 10:36

Rumor has it this be thems.

About That "Blue Thunder" Counter-Terror Chopper That Landed On London Bridge - The Drive (http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11121/about-that-blue-thunder-counter-terror-chopper-that-landed-on-london-bridge)

PDR1

10th Aug 2018, 10:59

"Helicopter trials Next-Generation Autopilot using Cloud-based Computing technology"

PDR

212man

10th Aug 2018, 13:41

[email protected]

31st Aug 2018, 14:10

Thought I'd just finish this thread with some more detail to calm the outraged Daily Mailers:E

Having had an update, the video clip actually shows the aircraft hovertaxiing back out of the weather having turned round instead of pushing on. No IFR option due to location and fuel.

The weather came across the tops of the hills and down onto them - they stopped, had a look, turned round and, just after the video clip, exited the poor weather and continued en route.

As expected, they reported the incident to their authoriser and chain of command on return to base - BEFORE the video clip even made it to FB.

Anyone care to apologise for the comments they made about this crew and their actions?

DOUBLE BOGEY

31st Aug 2018, 16:40

Errr.....NO.

I was flying along minding my own business when some fog jumped out in front of me!

sounds like a shock of crit.

BTY Crab, the Daily Mail never has any nice pictures. The Sun and Daily Sport much better.

[email protected]

31st Aug 2018, 18:07

Errr.....NO.

I was flying along minding my own business when some fog jumped out in front of me! Errrrr No - lowering cloudbase coming of the tops of the hills - you must surely understand how that happens or are you so far up yourself you can't see weather phenomena?

helonorth

31st Aug 2018, 18:34

DOUBLE BOGEY

31st Aug 2018, 19:19

Crab my dear fellow. I have been flying a little bit here and there. I have not had to hover taxi off a mountain cos fog fell on top off me out of the blue. Maybe I have just been lucky eh. What do you think? Maybe it’s because I am “Up myself” whatever that means.

Straws, clutching etc. However I admire you defence of the indefensible. Your support for the insupportable.

There is another thread started about how to be a good helicopter pilot. Maybe we should copy the video onto it and say “Don’t do this” or maybe you would caption “Do this”

DB

[email protected]

31st Aug 2018, 21:21

So you are saying that it is indefensible to plan a low level sortie, get caught out by the weather in a steep sided mountain pass, stop, turn round and taxi out??????????

I really don't know what sort of flying you did in the Army but I do think you have forgotten your roots and lost complete perspective here.

The be a better pilot thread should hold that video up as a 'how to extricate yourself properly' example - or a 'how not to end up in CFIT or IIMC' - it shows exactly what should be done - go down, slow down and turn round when you can.

By 'up yourself' I mean pretending you have never been caught out by weather - I'm starting to wonder if you are a pilot at all.

Helonorth - I don't need to help these guys - they didn't do anything wrong and everyone except you and DB knows it

nigelh

31st Aug 2018, 22:03

Crab .... really ??? My advice is STOP DIGGING!!!!!
you are sounding more like Chopjock by the minute 🙈

DOUBLE BOGEY

1st Sep 2018, 05:48

Crabby, the only defence I can think of to offer having seen the video, is the crew did not have enough experience to recognise they had already gone too far before turning around.....if indeed that is what they did.

Use a little common sense. Hover taxiing in fog along a public road in peacetime close to cars carrying families was, is, and never will be acceptable no matter what uniform we wear.

You are wondering if I am really a pilot. Hmmmm. Are you now suggesting that to be a pilot I must try to kill myself in fog? I am confused.

Hughes500

1st Sep 2018, 06:48

Team, why dont we just leave this as crew pushed the sensible limit a bit too far, and use it as an example of how not to do it

[email protected]

1st Sep 2018, 06:53

So now the facts DB- and they are facts - don't match your perception of the video, you lack the honesty or moral courage to admit you fired from the hip and criticised a crew, assuming they were cowboys because they were in a video that you didn't like the look of.

Now even you must understand that hill fog - which is just cloud on the ground - can be formed in hilly terrain such as the Lake District very quickly and can be extremely localised - can you not understand that this wasn't a 'push on into a lowering cloudbase and poor vis' situation but instead a sudden appearance at the top of a steep sided valley, of said hill fog. Note the steep-sided valley descriptor which forced a slow-down, go-down with no immediate option to turn round. Once established safely in a hover, but engulfed in the forming hill fog, the turn around could be completed and the exit strategy (hovertaxiing on a line feature which was the SAFEST thing to do) employed.

Do please carry on trolling about this but I don't think I am the only one asking questions about your experience or problem with either SAR or SF flying.

Nigel, grow up you are better than that.

chopjock

1st Sep 2018, 08:08

DB
Use a little common sense. Hover taxiing in fog along a public road

It was not along a road, it was along side a road!. If I got caught out like that I may want to keep a road in sight incase I HAD to put it down. At least then not far to walk for help or to get picked up or to arrange a recovery if breaking down or jerry can etc ...
I agree with Crab... (sorry Crab!)

[email protected]

1st Sep 2018, 09:10

Chopjock - another good reason for following the road in those conditions is that the wires are usually strung along the roads in those parts - much better to know exactly where they are and have them in view than to be constantly worried about where they might be or come across them unexpectedly:ok:

DOUBLE BOGEY

1st Sep 2018, 13:41

Crab I don’t think the crew are cowboys. They just pushed too far and that is a mistake. My experience has nothing to do with it. Not done SAR or SF. Never claimed this. However the ground is hard and the weather is the same for all of us. It’s a bit harsh to attack my credentials without you knowing who and what I am or have done. But maybe you read my public profile as I don’t hide or pretend to be anything special. Like I said I respect your defending this position. If I screw up I would appreciate the support of someone like you. Just try to see it for what it was. You suggest as much in your other posts. No need for us to regress back to our Neanderthal default positions.

chopjock, I agree, in this circumstances the road is the safest extraction but this debate is about getting there and ending up with that as the only option. Rules and limits are there to protect us and hopefully stop us pushing on when maybe we should take a time out so we expressly do not end up risking ourselves and third parties.

‘In this respect only, the crew, in my view have got themselves in a stickier situation than when sticky the stick insect got stuck on a stick. Good on them for surviving the experience. I am sure they learned from it.

DB

SASless

1st Sep 2018, 14:12

Good on them for surviving the experience. I am sure they learned from it.

DB,

For crying out loud.....give it a friggin rest will you!

It was a bit of fog and some weather that quickly changed due to the terrain.

As you were told....it was all in a day's work for the crew...they complied with Unit Procedures and Policies....reported the occurrence BEFORE it became publicized.

If you think this event was a major life threatening thing.....I begin to question your bona fides.....or at least your motivation for harping on and on about this.

There are very few professional helicopter pilots, civilian or military, that have not encountered similar situations and done as this Crew did.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with their actions....they tried one route...got weathered out...did a 180 and returned to appropriate weather conditions and continued the Mission.

We in the US Military have an expression....."Charlie Mike!".....continue the Mission.

That is what the Crew did.....as they should have.

Non-PC Plod

1st Sep 2018, 18:48

Fact is - anybody who has done this type of work for a few years has got at least a handful of experiences similar to (or more exciting than) this. It goes with the job. It is inevitable that you will end up in some challenging situations which may require above-average training, experience and teamwork to fix. Fortunately, that is what these guys have available to them, and that is why they do not pile in like your average weekend Robbo pilot might have done.

Thomas coupling

1st Sep 2018, 20:15

Oh that Dauphin! (https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbritish-sportscars.paris%2F683-thickbox_default%2Frenault-ondine.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbritish-sportscars.paris%2Fen%2Fcars-for-sale%2F58-renault-ondine.html&docid=5UfuWsNHtdR8jM&tbnid=7ZoSZDG84dwunM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwj97Kqmz5rdAhXMKcAKHaHJDmUQMwiWASgFMAU..i&w=800&h=500&client=firefox-b&bih=654&biw=1366&q=renault%20dauphine&ved=0ahUKEwj97Kqmz5rdAhXMKcAKHaHJDmUQMwiWASgFMAU&iact=mrc&uact=8)

homonculus

1st Sep 2018, 21:41

There are very few professional helicopter pilots, civilian or military, that have not encountered similar situations and done as this Crew did.

Words fail me.

1842 commercial pilots in 2016. If we assume an average 30 years of civilian rotary flying each and only one such situation per pilot, that is more than one a week. Funny how this cab got filmed and none of the others.....

SASless

1st Sep 2018, 22:05

Homie....there is life beyond the confines of the small island you live on.....like the entire rest of the World.

There are places that have far more challenging flying conditions and terrain than your country.

Add in the rest of the World to your Stats and tell us how that affects your calculations!

Take a look at the American Northwest, Canada, and Alaska....for a start.

PDR1

1st Sep 2018, 22:37

Thought I'd just finish this thread with some more detail to calm the outraged Daily Mailers:E

Having had an update from those in the know, the video clip actually shows the aircraft hovertaxiing back out of the weather having turned round instead of pushing on. No IFR option due to location and fuel.

Can you provide a link to this source?

PDR

[email protected]

2nd Sep 2018, 06:41

For what most people would understand as quite obvious reasons - No.

However, send your location and I'm sure they could pay a visit:E

DB - I think Sasless said it all.............seems plenty of people can't dismount their high horses.......

DOUBLE BOGEY

2nd Sep 2018, 06:52

Ahh the great SAS has decreed and Crab agrees. I therefore must conclude that I am wrong and have been all along. So Rotorheads, apparently it is perfectly OK to fly along public roads (edges), in the weedisphere in fog. The more important your job is, apparently the more acceptable this kind of flying will be. OM limits.....Pah! They don’t matter. Rules and Regs.....apparently for “inexperienced pilots........like me”

So now I realise what a knob I have been, not realising that I was wrong to be “morally outraged” when clearly taxpayers money can be spent and expended without question or accountability I will withdraw and leave this subject to the “experts” like Crab.

Good luck in the fog....sadly 35 years of fear and inexperience will cause me not to be with you. Like a massive Jessy that I clearly am I will be above you IFR with at least 1,000 feet between me and the ground, or worse somewhere else at my OM min height in approved VFR conditions. Sadly due to my chronic “inexperience” if the weather starts to look like it might go below my limits I am such a wus I have to turn around or land.

My only hope is that fog does not suddenly fall on top of me like wot happened here, especially if I planned carefully and had good tafs and stuff. Still I only have about 17k hours so maybe not enough exposure yet for this to happen.

Same again

2nd Sep 2018, 07:02

So now I realise what a knob I have been

We all hoped that you would arrive at that conclusion eventually.

PDR1

2nd Sep 2018, 07:57

For what most people would understand as quite obvious reasons - No.

So you want everyone to accept that your claimed new information from a mythical source sets the matter in a new light. I doubt that's going to happen - especially given the stuff you've been spewing here. You're lucky that willy-waving with intent is not (yet) an offence...

PDR

DOUBLE BOGEY

2nd Sep 2018, 08:19

Same Gain, speak for yourself only and save the passive aggressive attitude.

Bell_ringer

2nd Sep 2018, 08:30

Come now children, play nice and put the toys back in the pram.
Why the outrage that someone disagrees with you, are you all so desperate to be proven right or to feel validated in your personal views?
This has really become an incredibly dull peeing contest.
If the crew is as professional as claimed they will have a long and productive career, if not they will leave a smoking hole somewhere.
Nothing to be seen here.

Al-bert

2nd Sep 2018, 09:49

We all hoped that you would arrive at that conclusion eventually.

This is THE THREAD that truly goes on giving! PPRuNe so needs a like button :D

GrayHorizonsHeli

2nd Sep 2018, 12:03

this stuff is Gold...:ok:

DOUBLE BOGEY

2nd Sep 2018, 12:50

Ah well maybe I walked into that one and happy to please!

ex_matelot

2nd Sep 2018, 14:44

Whoa there Leslie....! Steady yourselves!
Have never ventured onto this bit of Pprune before.

I see several "walts" trying to reinforce their credentials via criticism.

I know of the situation in discussion, and know people who know the crew. There was nothing 'out of the ordinary'.

Reading criticism of 'off-textbook' procedures by people who could only ever dream of being in that r/h seat are amusing though.

DOUBLE BOGEY

2nd Sep 2018, 15:09

Ex matelot you are way off the mark.

ex_matelot

2nd Sep 2018, 15:58

My grouping was within 3.5cm on last APWT

hihover

2nd Sep 2018, 16:14

OMFG is this Round 3 or 4?

DOUBLE BOGEY

2nd Sep 2018, 16:32

My grouping was within 3.5cm on last APWT

APWT - Cool. I remember the hay boxes full of range stew......mmmmm.

Round 4 I think. I gotta get back to some work.

Crab started it this time by picking on me. After I was nice to him last time. SAS kicked me in the fanny when I was down. It wasn’t me that started it. Honest guv.

Bell_ringer

2nd Sep 2018, 17:08

Is that a metric or imperial fanny? :}

Thomas coupling

2nd Sep 2018, 22:28

Suffice to say, one of the contributors to this thread was in that cab. It's not 'normal' for them to end up like this. It's a bit embarrasing actually but they got seen by the great unwashed and now they are slightly twitched that it's 'in the public domain'.....let's say.

Oh and by the way - outside of the "IFR" (I follow roads) brigade - anywhere in the world - this is NOT to be recommended flying by anyone. It isn't sanctioned, it isn't practiced and it certainly isn't clever.

Let's just say - occasionally, just occasionally, one finds one's self up a creek without a paddle and one simply has to 'improvise'.

They are sorry and promise never to be caught doing it again.......

By the way - they also have the reg plate of the car that took the picture................:suspect:

hihover

3rd Sep 2018, 02:07

:):):):):)

DOUBLE BOGEY

3rd Sep 2018, 06:26

TC - simple honest summary. ENDEX.

Hughes500

3rd Sep 2018, 10:30

So Tc you are now saying the pilots took their hands off the controls to take a picture ?????

[email protected]

3rd Sep 2018, 16:25

Despite all the bickering and criticism, I have repeatedly laid out the facts about this video and the circumstances that preceded it - actually I don't give a flying whatsit if PDR or others don't believe what I have written - it is the truth but it would appear an uncomfortable or inconvenient truth for those who were so openly critical of a crew just doing their job very professionally.

I have no need to make stuff up to defend these guys - the fact that they are ex-colleagues and students of mine is irrelevant but I'm sure that won't hold sway with the conspiracy theory types.

You can make your own minds up whether you think this was a total non-event that just happened to be caught on video or something much more dastardly - actually I don't care but when there is an opportunity to highlight the correct procedure when caught out by weather as opposed to the IIMC or CFIT versions then I will continue to do so - even if it turns out to be DB.