Vulcan Minimum Aircrew?

[GLIDER 90]

Good Afternoon All

Apart from XH558 3 man crew, what was the known minimum aircrew inflight on a Vulcan in the 70's & 80's.

[Timelord]

4. One of the navigators could get out for night pilot circuits. And it was never me!

[Mockers]

Good Afternoon All

Apart from XH558 3 man crew, what was the known minimum aircrew inflight on a Vulcan in the 70's & 80's.
A 4 man crew with a suitably qualified navigator - usually a Nav plotter

[Timelord]

Indeed the Vulcan lost at Chicago Glenview only had four aboard, the Nav Plotter ( and Sqn Commander) having gone to the display venue.

[India Four Two]

In Tony Blackman's book, he mentions flying single-pilot, but needed a nav ruler to reach some switches!

[57mm]

Did Roly Falk fly it solo?

[Fareastdriver]

I think that the Vulcan's original design only had a single pilot. That's why the cockpit was so small.

[Pontius Navigator]

I had done single nav a few times, longest was Cyprus to UKUK and I was a nav rad.

[Pontius Navigator]

Indeed the Vulcan lost at Chicago Glenview only had four aboard, the Nav Plotter ( and Sqn Commander) having gone to the display venue.
Absolutely awful with a mixture of relief and guilt.

[Argonautical]

Did Roly Falk fly it solo?
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I think I remember also reading that either Tony Blackman or Roly Falk flew a Vulcan back to Avro's base after Farnborough with their wife in the other seat!
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[Tankertrashnav]

If you are interested Glider90 it was a similar setup on Victor tankers. Checking my logbook I see numerous entries where I flew single nav (like P-N I was a nav radar too). These were usually trips like pilot IRTs, air tests etc where there would be no refuelling so one navigator was sufficient. These trips were usually given to nav radars so that they could keep their hand in doing some actual navigating/plotting, as opposed to operating the radar and the refuelling kit. Later on of course the Victor K2s were converted to single nav and operated with a four man crew, which made sense.

[cessnapete]

John Farley mentions in his book A View to a Hover, carrying out local circuits at Bedford in a Vulcan.
As a Test Pilot there, he had occasion to fly some civil pilots in the RHS demonstrating a new FLight Instrument system. No mention of other crew so “single (qualified) pilot”?

[Timelord]

John Farley mentions in his book A View to a Hover, carrying out local circuits at Bedford in a Vulcan.
As a Test Pilot there, he had occasion to fly some civil pilots in the RHS demonstrating a new FLight Instrument system. No mention of other crew so “single (qualified) pilot”?
I very much doubt that you could operate a Vulcan without an AEO at least. Pilots sometimes forget to mention the rest of the crew!

[Dave Gittins]

I think both Tony Blackman and Roly Falk flew it solo. Tony Blackman says in his book that he flew his wife Farnborough to Woodford in the RHS because she was annoyed that Roly Falk's wife had had the pleasure and she hadn't.

Whether Roly rolled it single pilot is a matter for conjecture.

[cessnapete]

I very much doubt that you could operate a Vulcan without an AEO at least. Pilots sometimes forget to mention the rest of the crew!

Not having Vulcan experience, but why would you need an AEO if on a circuit detail??

[hoss183]

I very much doubt that you could operate a Vulcan without an AEO at least. Pilots sometimes forget to mention the rest of the crew!
Indeed, i just had to go and check the crew compliment on op Black Buck (and it was 6) because in my memory of watching the documentary the pilots never hinted that there were any more than 2 crew in the interviews as far as i remember ;)

[Treble one]

Indeed, i just had to go and check the crew compliment on op Black Buck (and it was 6) because in my memory of watching the documentary the pilots never hinted that there were any more than 2 crew in the interviews as far as i remember ;)

Yep 5 crew plus a Victor AARI in the jump seat, for those tricky AAR brackets.

[Timelord]

Not having Vulcan experience, but why would you need an AEO if on a circuit detail??


To manage the electrics which were very complicated, very important and which had no controls accessible to the pilots. Some of his functions were more Flt Eng than EWO

[ACW418]

Anyway someone had to read the check lists!:oh:

[Timelord]

Sorry. The pilots could deploy tha RAT!

[Yellow Sun]

This got me thinking, just why did we need anyone in the rear cabin in the circuit other than to read the checklist? Whilst as mentioned previously, the electrical system was complex but it was also cleverly designed, had a number of self protection features and was operated in a manner that ensured the appropriate immediate protections would be in place depending on the phase of flight. This is the list I have come up with, feel free to add any others if you remember them:

1. The AAPP was kept running in the circuit. The fire warning and extinguishing button was on the AEO’s panel and there was no indication in the front.

2. There was only one radio control on the flight deck. The other was at the AEO’s station.

3. The navaids were all located at the navigation stations, no control on the flight deck.

4. Other than the Alternator Failure Light there were no other electrical system indicators on the flight deck.

5. The SSR was located in the rear cabin.

So, the answer is that the Vulcan was just not configured to be flown without crew in the rear cabin.

YS

[Fareastdriver]

Irrespective of what systems were only operable fro the rear crew positions the aircraft, once electrically charged for starting could be operated by one crewmember in the captains seat. My experience is based on the last of the V bombers, the Valiant, but that could be operated single pilot.

Butterworth to Gan: Heavy night before we left. Two hours to go I am the only one awake. I carried on with the last heading when the NBS nav function started wobbling and was in the descent almost at the stage of lowering the undercarriage when the rest of the crew woke up.

[Pontius Navigator]

Irrespective of what systems were only operable fro the rear crew positions the aircraft, once electrically charged for starting could be operated by one crewmember in the back!

Butterworth to Gan: Heavy night before we left. Two hours to go I am the only one awake. I carried on with the last heading when the NBS nav function started wobbling and was in the descent almost at the stage of lowering the undercarriage when the rest of the crew woke up.

Akrotiri to Masirah: night departure after an early morning crew in failure. Two hours out the plotter the only one awake, carried on with autopilot when we reach Tehran and needed right hand down a lot. Dialled in new heading on the NHU (Navs Heading Unit). At the time he could not make RT calls.

[Tankertrashnav]

It was a sad day when they removed the R88 camera over the H2S screen from the Victor tankers, as it was no longer required. The rubber head rest was ideal for nav radars when grabbing forty winks during uneventful parts of the sortie :ok:

[Tengah Type]

TTN

It was not neccessary for my Nav Rad. He had the inner liner from a wine box, which when inflated gave him a comfortable pillow. This enabled him to sleep for up to 7 hours of a 9 hour Op Corporate sortie. Only signs of life were when woken (grumpily) to shoot Astro or actually refuel the receiver.https://www.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon9.gif

[Pontius Navigator]

Even after a good night's sleep and a mid morning sortie I found myself yawning before getting into the aircraft. I realised my body was preparing for a mid day siesta once safely airborne.

[BEagle]

During a session of CT ('pilot playtime') at Scampton, we rolled off an ILS, with the next approach to be an Internal Aids approach. We turned onto the outbound leg and told ATC that we'd advised turning inbound.

"All yours then, Radar" quoth the Captain.

And we waited for the inbound turn call...and waited...and waited

Falditz went past on the right... "I'll bet the bugger's asleep" muttered the Captain. "He is indeed!" responded the AEO

Market Rasen loomed up on the right...

Finally the Captain had had enough "ARE YOU GOING TO TURN US IN SOON, OR DO WE NEED TO CALL BINBROOK??!!"

"Wha...oh, umm, Roger. Turn right 140. Where the f..k??"

"Check the bloody TACAN and you'll find out" came the sympathetic reply.

"Scampton Approach, nnnnn turning inbound"

"Roger - we were beginning to wonder. As indeed were Binbrook!"

[Pontius Navigator]

Alternatively: in the pre-low level days the crew did a PD to Yeovilton, one of their dispersals. The plotter was a bit grumbly but they did a circuit and departed.

"What heading Plotter?"

Silence.

After some promoting the Radar said the plotter was sitting down by the door, bag packed and Hat on.

?????

"He says he only does one climb and descent per sortie"

So, 4 man crew and one pax on return to Coningsby.

[GLIDER 90]

Thanks All.

[pontifex]

Flown all the Vs from Valiant to Victor 2. Total about 6K hrs. Never flown with less than 5. Except once at BD.

[Tankertrashnav]

Never knew you were on tin triangles Pontifex, or was that at Boscombe?I know a few navs who would have liked to have escaped from your famous stints of circuit bashing when you were putting some poor co-pilot through his paces at the end of a sortie, but as I recall you always had the door firmly locked! ;)

[NRU74]

pontifex,
You must have delivered a Mk1/1A Victor to either Fred’s Sheds at Radlett or to St Athan for servicing with a four man crew.
I recall once having to return to Marham by train - immersionn suit and all- when the aircraft we four crew were due to pick up went sick. Also, on a separate occasion Marham had the good grace to send a couple of Canberras to pick us (4) up.

[Pontius Navigator]

pontifex,
You must have delivered a Mk1/1A Victor to either Fred’s Sheds at Radlett or to St Athan for servicing with a four man crew.
I recall once having to return to Marham by train - immersionn suit and all- when the aircraft we four crew were due to pick up went sick. Also, on a separate occasion Marham had the good grace to send a couple of Canberras to pick us (4) up.
Did you travel 1st Class or 2nd?
We insisted on 1st as we were in uniform and armed. However we were on a Groupex the following date. No sooner than PSF at St A had written out the warrants than a Hastings was diverted in for us.

[NRU74]

Did you travel 1st Class or 2nd?
We insisted on 1st as we were in uniform and armed. However we were on a Groupex the following date. No sooner than PSF at St A had written out the warrants than a Hastings was diverted in for us.

Second Class- we were Tankertrash after all.
However I don’t think our fellow travellers had seen Kierki played before !

[OldRaven]

I agree that in RAF service the minimum crew was 4, 2 pilots, AEO and a Nav. However at Boscombe in 1982 I flew the tanker conversion with just 3 crew, 2 pilots and myself as AEO on high risk trials (heavyweight rollers at 205K AUW to determine how quickly the aircraft slowed, as we couldn’t aerodynamic brake due to the HDU on the back). We also delivered XH558 to Waddo at the end of the trials with a 3 man crew, just because we didn’t have a Nav available - under A&AEE rules!! After she was restored we flew XH558 with a 3 man crew, 2 pilots and an AEO, as the CAA insisted minimum crew for air displays, and we didn’t need a Nav as XH558 had GPS fitted when she was restored. We did occasionally fly with a Nav on transit sorties which didn’t include a public display! Happy days 😊

[John LeBrun]

When I flew the Prince of Wales in a Vulcan in July 1971 (he was finishing his training at Cranwell and the RAF decided to let him experience front line aircraft - Phantom, Nimrod and Vulcan), he flew in the co-pilot's seat. The sixth crew member (Pete Perry), other than serving sandwiches and drinks, could reach from behind the co-pilot's seat and operate some switches (pressurisation, air-conditioning and anti-icing). The rest of the crew was standard with two navigators and an AEO.