Piper M600 for CAT under AOC

[Markos.]

Hi there,

As you may know, last year Piper released a new version of the PA-46, the M600 powered by a PT6 engine. Its performance, range and max weight has been improved and it can now carry 5 adult people with baggage to a 1,000NM destination. This aircraft is not considered either as a top performer for private flyers or a very interesting alternative to the TBM o PC-12 for Commercial Air Transport since its acquisition and operating costs are less costly.
Moreover, new EASA rules allow single pilot operations for Singe Engine Turbine aicraft for commercial operations.

What do you think? is this aicraft a game changer? New era for the SET aicraft?

Regards

[Hats.On.To.Fly]

It's nothing new, same PT6 as the M500 but with a little more power, sits at a slightly higher price point but still just lower than the TBM.

Updated avionics and some nice features for single pilot safety but it won't pull people who want the speed and range of the TBM or the utility and size of the PC-12.

It's the sort of aircraft for those who want the 911 but only have the money for a Cayman, the smart money waits a little longer and gets the bigger and better model.

[His dudeness]

What do you think? is this aicraft a game changer? New era for the SET aicraft?

Well what game exactly should it change ? I´m in the business now for roughly 30 years, the aircraft chartered by the wealthy keep getting bigger and the folks one used to attract with a say a KingAir or a Conquest at prices close to or sometimes even below regular airline flights use the Locos now. Maybe there is a segment even below that, but that can´t sustain full time employees with the prices the airports/handler take, the cost involved in training/AOC/overhead generally. It might work out from places far from airline travel, but where is that ? Nowhere in Europe, nowhere in the states and even in Afrika the airlines grow with huge rates. Places that were nearly deserted boom nowadays.
On the operational side, you still need better weather at least for T/O and I know several "business people" (aka clients) that wouldn't go near a single engine airplane.

I can´t see it being a game changer, but then I´m a pessimist.

[Daifly]

No.








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[flyboyike]

I can´t see it being a game changer, but then I´m a pessimist.

I agree, it won't change any games, but that's not to say it doesn't have its place. For one thing, it's priced not "just lower" than a TBM, more like 30% lower. I don't think it's meant to compete with the PC-12 at all, that's a very different aircraft.

[His dudeness]

For one thing, it's priced not "just lower" than a TBM, more like 30% lower. I don't think it's meant to compete with the PC-12 at all, that's a very different aircraft.

Isn´t that what the TO did say as well ?

[trackfpa320]

In the USA the aircraft is limited to the likes of private owner pilot moving up from a piston single or twin. It has very limited space and it is very difficult and uncomfortable to climb into the two front seats.

Buy a new one and brace yourself for the depreciation once you first fly away after taking delivery. If you were really considering a single engine turbine for CAT you would buy an aircraft built for the job and that had some realistic residual value.

It is hardly used anywhere else in the world where CAT SE IFR has been legal for some time, so why would that change in EASA land ?

If your serious buy a second hand PC12, if your sensible and serious buy an older Kingair.

It is an expensive toy.

[Markos.]

I was just considering that even though the acquisition costs are higher than a used PC12 or TBM, the maintenance costs and operating costs are less expensive.

Moreover, this aircraft won’t replace other SET out there, but I am just suggesting that it can be effect for some specific missions (e.g. 5pax 800-1000nm) and for this particular missions, it would be very competitive.

It’s is obvious that if you take the 100% of the current private flights, this aircraft will only be suitable for maybe 15-20% of them (there is a HUGE number of private charters for 2-3 people for less than a 1000nm trip in Europe). What is even more interesting is that there a certain percentage of the population that is not currently using a private charter because it is very expensive but with these new SET, this service will become less expensive so a new market will emerge. Compare a PC12 hourly rate to these new SET. Half of crew expense, 75% of the operating cost of a bigger SET. For me, it will be accessible to a big number of companies/people.

Let me state that I am not related with Piper or any other builder in any way.

Regards

[His dudeness]

I was just considering that even though the acquisition costs are higher than a used PC12 or TBM, the maintenance costs and operating costs are less expensive.

Moreover, this aircraft won’t replace other SET out there, but I am just suggesting that it can be effect for some specific missions (e.g. 5pax 800-1000nm) and for this particular missions, it would be very competitive.

It’s is obvious that if you take the 100% of the current private flights, this aircraft will only be suitable for maybe 15-20% of them (there is a HUGE number of private charters for 2-3 people for less than a 1000nm trip in Europe). What is even more interesting is that there a certain percentage of the population that is not currently using a private charter because it is very expensive but with these new SET, this service will become less expensive so a new market will emerge. Compare a PC12 hourly rate to these new SET. Half of crew expense, 75% of the operating cost of a bigger SET. For me, it will be accessible to a big number of companies/people.

Let me state that I am not related with Piper or any other builder in any way.

Regards


Lets wait and see. I remember 10 years ago the VLJ wave was to open new markets etcetc., now did they ? If you look at the amount of money you bind with an aircraft purchase, the truth really is you can make way more money out of the same investment elsewhere. Given this, who are the investors ?

[what next]

Hello!

Compare a PC12 hourly rate to these new SET. Half of crew expense, ...

Why would that be? Do Piper pilots get paid only 1/2 of Pilatus pilots? And if you refer to single pilot operations then a PC12 can be operated single pilot just like any Piper Malibu. Keep in mind however that single pilot commercial operations are severely constrained by duty timy limitations. 10 hours is the maximum duty time for single pilot, as opposed to 14 hours, extendable to 18 through split duty, for multi crew. A typical day return mission (which is about 80% of what I have been doing in the last 30 years or so) can not be accomplished within a 10 hour duty period, especially not with a slow-ish plane. This is why the second pilot in typical narrow-track operations is generally known as the "flight time extender"...

Anyway, right now the whole concept will not work in these days because there are no pilots on the market. Even airlines are struggling to keep their planes in the air, some (like Eurowings) now offer "welcome gifts" (=20.000 Euro cash bonus) to attract pilots, others (e.g. Helvetic) have raised their maximum age for direct entry pilots beyond 60. I have been in this business for quite some time but have never seen anything like this before. Our operation (bizjets) will soon be left with a single first officer, all others have left for the airlines during the last half year. And the last one remaining is sending out apllications... I now spend plenty of time on the phone with ex-colleagues trying to lure them back into the cockpit because they went back to their pre-flying jobs during the quiet years.
In that situation, where do you think you will find crews for a low-end cheap single-pilot single-engine deathtrap operation?

[flyboyike]

Moreover, this aircraft won’t replace other SET out there, but I am just suggesting that it can be effect for some specific missions (e.g. 5pax 800-1000nm) and for this particular missions, it would be very competitive.


Not really, and for a rather obvious reason. 800-1000nm in that airplane is 3.5-4.5 hours. Not many people have that big a bladder, if you know what I mean.

[rotorspeed]

Markos

I think you might check your numbers ref the viability of 5 pax to 1000nm in this. Piper's own data claims 1200nm at fast cruise 274 kts, so let's say in the real world that's 1000nm at 260kts. With a tanks full payload of about 300kg that's 2 pax, not your 5. And where does the 5th sit anyway - P2 seat? Really? And as flyboymike says, bladder factor is key too. IF you can get 5 pax 1000nm it will likely be at 180kts long range cruise - 5.5 hrs. I reckon 2 hours max with no toilet is realistic for charter. So you've got a 500nm realistic range for charter with this I reckon.

Moving on to costs, it's the old chestnut I'm afraid - plane DOC's can be dwarfed by crew, crew expenses, landing, handling, airspace route charges, flight planning and AOC charges etc, as Dudeness implies. . Add slow speed, (it does matter), a single engine, a prop and fairly cramped cabin and I see this having no impact on charter I'm afraid. It's a nice family/small owner-driver biz aircraft.

Why your interest in it and enthusiasm ref AOC work?

[172510]

Well what game exactly should it change ? I´m in the business now for roughly 30 years, the aircraft chartered by the wealthy keep getting bigger
In Godfather II, the time of the movie being the Cuban Revolution, 1959, the lawyer charters a Cessna 182 for a business trip.
Nowadays I imagine he wouldn't fly anything smaller than a Cessna Latitude.

[His dudeness]

In Godfather II, the time of the movie being the Cuban Revolution, 1959, the lawyer charters a Cessna 182 for a business trip.
Nowadays I imagine he wouldn't fly anything smaller than a Cessna Latitude.

A close relative of mine started an air taxi company in 1960 - with a Super Cub and two years later a Piper PA24 (Comanche). What caused a real sensation in 1964, was a Piper PA-23 Apache as top of the line at the time, subchartered from an owner, air taxi in a twin, imagine that !.... When I started out, a KingAir B200 was a very sought after A/C for that work. Now I fly a Sovereign and often we are among the smallest on the ramp.

The times, they are changing....